88 replies to this topic

[Spa One]

Very entertaining, emotion fueled, interview response:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Jovanotti]

Now that's a Gangsta hat

[sofarapartguy]

Very entertaining, emotion fueled, interview response:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I can not imagine the amount of shock if the same happens today. And it's a pity 'cause I like that kind of stuff - drivers should be warriors FFS, fighting each other with respect but in a... reckless way.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 26 September 2012 - 14:39.

[Watkins74]

Senna crying as usual. He never missed a chance to play the victim card.

[Ravenak]

Senna crying as usual. He never missed a chance to play the victim card.

He was a Brazilian, which means he was passionnate about life and everything he did.

Doesn't make him a victim, but a true legend. Sorry for you.

[SennaBoys]

He was a Brazilian, which means he was passionnate about life and everything he did.

Doesn't make him a victim, but a true legend. Sorry for you.

[flavio81]

Senna crying as usual. He never missed a chance to play the victim card.

He was a Brazilian, which means he was passionnate about life and everything he did.

Doesn't make him a victim, but a true legend. Sorry for you.

He was an arrogant prima-donna that always thought he was right, and never considered the possibility of being wrong. You're insulting brazilians with your comment, for Emmo Fittipaldi would have never made such a comment in the press, and Nelson Piquet was irreverent but never arrogant.

[teejay]

All the legends are a little bit arrogant

Tyson

Jordan

Bolt

Senna

Its all part of being supremely confident in your ability.

[Ravenak]

You're insulting brazilians with your comment

[stanga]

He was an arrogant prima-donna that always thought he was right, and never considered the possibility of being wrong. You're insulting brazilians with your comment, for Emmo Fittipaldi would have never made such a comment in the press, and Nelson Piquet was irreverent but never arrogant.

Nelson Piquet was quite clearly a ****.

[as65p]

Very entertaining, emotion fueled, interview response:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Well, indeed, how did you miss that so far, it's a classic.

Of course highly polemic from Senna, but so different to what we see normally, no dancing around, tip-toeing, political correct, sponsor friendly PR quibble, but bang, straight in your face! Ah, memories...

BTW, I always found the best bit to be 'nodding Nigel' in that clip, while Berger can barely contain himself.

[Seanspeed]

Ayrton played the politics angle, too. Prost not wanting Senna as a teammate after their Mclaren saga was more than just about Senna's ability.

All the legends are a little bit arrogant

Tyson

Jordan

Bolt

Senna

Its all part of being supremely confident in your ability.

Physical sports I can understand the arrogance. There's an advantage in it. In a sport like racing, I definitely prefer a more modest approach. You gain nothing but some rolled eyes by acting arrogant. Plenty of F1 legends were nothing like Ayrton.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 September 2012 - 16:04.

[TheManAlive]

Those were the days, real men in real press conferences willing to talk. Of course there was politics, arrogance, drama, but that is what you will get when you have people who at the very pinnacle of their sport. Somehow I do not think in 20 years time I will be looking back at a YouTube video of the stupid new press conference b/s thinking the same thing!

[maverick69]

All I can say is that it would have been frickin' funny (read "all out war") if there was F1 messageboards in those days!

[as65p]

Physical sports I can understand the arrogance. There's an advantage in it. In a sport like racing, I definitely prefer a more modest approach. You gain nothing but some rolled eyes by acting arrogant. Plenty of F1 legends were nothing like Ayrton.

I would strongly disagree. Not about what you prefer of course, but about the benefits of arrogance (or strong self belief, for a less negative word). The one thing to consider by playing hardball though, in all kinds of activities, is that you better be really, really outstanding. Senna was, so I guess it worked for him. There are quite a few statements from drivers admitting (way after their active time obviously) how they tried to avoid getting in Sennas way or spoiling his qualifying laps.

Here from Martin Brundle, for example.

[Gareth]

All the legends are a little bit arrogant

Tyson

Jordan

Bolt

Senna

Its all part of being supremely confident in your ability.

What's Eddie doing in that list?

[flavio81]

All the legends are a little bit arrogant

Tyson

Jordan

Bolt

Senna

Its all part of being supremely confident in your ability.

How about...

Emerson Fittipaldi

Juan Manuel Fangio

Jackie Stewart

etc.

You know, people with more respect towards other drivers. As Clay Regazzoni told a young teammate named Niki Lauda: "If you go blocking other drivers like that, you will never become great." The two became great friends. Clay Regazzoni was a legend, and a totally classy gentleman.

Or as Rene Arnoux remembered regarding his legendary wheel-to-wheel fight with Gilles Villeneuve:

“With the cars the way they were back then, you needed to have complete faith in the other driver, because if you collided, you would be flying immediately. He trusted me and I trusted him, so we were able to tap each other seven times. It's true that Gilles was someone who was trustworthy and loyal, both on the track and in life. He was someone I really liked."

Drivers of that generation (& before) were much more respectful towards each other, because death was around the corner. Senna didn't consider this, for in his pre-F1 days he almost kills Martin Brundle by running over him, and also destroyed a marshall post, an incident in which fortunately nobody was killed.

As for Senna, well Senna himself infamously vetoed Derek Warwick at Toleman, Warwick being a hot shot. Seems he didn't want to be threatened. Prost, quite the opposite, never ever had any fear to face strong teammates: Niki Lauda, Rene Arnoux, Nigel Mansell, Keke Rosberg, Damon Hill, John Watson, and Senna of course.

As for Prost "vetoing" Senna, you have to remember two things

(1) Prost was given a say on teammate selection at McLaren 1988, and he chose Senna over Piquet and other candidates. He could have chose Piquet, with whom he got along well, and was past his best after the strong 1987 Tamburello accident.

(2) If you would have been in Prost shoes through 1988, 1989 and 1990, you would too put a veto clause in your contract. In 72-size typeface.

Edited by flavio81, 26 September 2012 - 17:28.

[Nycco]

Nowadays we only get marketed PR talk and everyone pretend they like each other. That's why Senna was a legend, he had the balls to say such things. In other words, he lived for canning other people's can'ts.

[spacekid]

You either love this side of Ayrton, or you don't.

I didn't find it very endearing then, and it still isn't to my taste now.

[as65p]

You know, people with more respect towards other drivers. As Clay Regazzoni told a young teammate named Niki Lauda: "If you go blocking other drivers like that, you will never become great." The two became great friends. Clay Regazzoni was a legend, and a totally classy gentleman.

Not wanting to be indulged in another boring Prost/Senna debate, but Regazzonis certainly was no saint on track, far from it.

[Kingshark]

Those were the days, real men in real press conferences willing to talk. Of course there was politics, arrogance, drama, but that is what you will get when you have people who at the very pinnacle of their sport. Somehow I do not think in 20 years time I will be looking back at a YouTube video of the stupid new press conference b/s thinking the same thing!

It's painful to read how much people love to look back at the past with rose-tainted glasses. Hypocrites at their best.

If someone today had cried in the press conference like Senna did there, he'd be bashed ages for it on this forum, especially if it was Fred/Lewis/Seb.

[AlexS]

Plenty of F1 legends were nothing like Ayrton.

Yes Ayrton almost destroyed F1 with his agression. The ugly side of Schumacher would never seen the day if not by the steps first done by Senna in that direction.

[AvranaKern]

It's painful to read how much people love to look back at the past with rose-tainted glasses. Hypocrites at their best.

If someone today had cried in the press conference like Senna did there, he'd be bashed ages for it on this forum, especially if it was Fred/Lewis/Seb.

It's painful to read how much people take things for granted with their pre-shaped judgements. Idée fixe at their best.

[flavio81]

Nowadays we only get marketed PR talk and everyone pretend they like each other. That's why Senna was a legend, he had the balls to say such things. In other words, he lived for canning other people's can'ts.

... and he lived to push other people against the wall at full speed, too. Or punch other people in the face whenever they didn't let His Holiness get through. It's OK to admire Senna's driving, but it's not OK to think the guy was a saint who only did good things.

[jonpollak]

What's Eddie doing in that list?;)

Maybe he means Katie Price?
Anyway....
The real question is..
How have I never seen THIS before?


Jp

[as65p]

Yes Ayrton almost destroyed F1 with his agression. The ugly side of Schumacher would never seen the day if not by the steps first done by Senna in that direction.

So many years, so much unparalleled success, yet still MS isn't allowed to be his own man. What a shame.

[as65p]

... and he lived to push other people against the wall at full speed, too. Or punch other people in the face whenever they didn't let His Holiness get through. It's OK to admire Senna's driving, but it's not OK to think the guy was a saint who only did good things.

Above everything, it's not OK for you to decide what's OK.

Okay?

[Seanspeed]

I would strongly disagree. Not about what you prefer of course, but about the benefits of arrogance (or strong self belief, for a less negative word). The one thing to consider by playing hardball though, in all kinds of activities, is that you better be really, really outstanding. Senna was, so I guess it worked for him. There are quite a few statements from drivers admitting (way after their active time obviously) how they tried to avoid getting in Sennas way or spoiling his qualifying laps.

Here from Martin Brundle, for example.

I dont think that was cuz of his arrogance or anything. People avoided Senna because he was dangerous on-track. That quote that I hate to hear:

"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, then you're not a real racing driver"

or whatever it was, is the sort of mentality that lead to rivals actively avoiding him. Some consider that a positive, I dont. A lot of times it was basically, 'let me through or crash'. Lewis got away with this sort of thing his first couple years quite a few times, too. People realized that if they tried to race him hard, they'd probably end up in the wall and thought better of it.

Self-confidence is hugely important, no doubt, but displayed arrogance is completely unnecessary. I mean, if you're arrogant on the inside, whatever, just keep it to yourself. Plenty of all-time greats were able to do incredible things without acting like a douche at the same time.

[OO7]

Maybe he means Katie Price?
Anyway....
The real question is..
How have I never seen THIS before?


Jp

[flavio81]

The real question is..
How have I never seen THIS before?

Another great talent that will endure through history.

PS: Is that Joni Mitchell, right? I love her.

[Xpat]

Nelson Piquet was quite clearly a ****.

Did you mean?:

[as65p]

I dont think that was cuz of his arrogance or anything. People avoided Senna because he was dangerous on-track. That quote that I hate to hear:

"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, then you're not a real racing driver"

or whatever it was, is the sort of mentality that lead to rivals actively avoiding him. Some consider that a positive, I dont. A lot of times it was basically, 'let me through or crash'. Lewis got away with this sort of thing his first couple years quite a few times, too. People realized that if they tried to race him hard, they'd probably end up in the wall and thought better of it.

Self-confidence is hugely important, no doubt, but displayed arrogance is completely unnecessary. I mean, if you're arrogant on the inside, whatever, just keep it to yourself. Plenty of all-time greats were able to do incredible things without acting like a douche at the same time.

<shrug> I said already I have no interest discussing your prefered style in a racing driver, that's your choice alone.

I was disputing your claim that arrogance has no benefits in racing, and I think I made a good case why that's wrong, with a quite compelling insider quote on top of it.

I don't think one needs to like Sennas style to accept it worked.

BTW, this common myth that Senna was dangerous on track isn't supported by any evidence, i.e. number of caused accidents or injuries compared to his contemporaries.

Edited by as65p, 26 September 2012 - 18:10.

[Frank Tuesday]

Yes Ayrton almost destroyed F1 with his agression. The ugly side of Schumacher would never seen the day if not by the steps first done by Senna in that direction.

And Prost beat Senna to intentionally taking out your championship rival by a year, so Senna learned from one of the best.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 26 September 2012 - 18:10.

[Jimisgod]

How about...

Emerson Fittipaldi

Juan Manuel Fangio

Jackie Stewart

etc.

You know, people with more respect towards other drivers.

And the big one, Clark. I am aware of his coming together with Von Trips in 1961 - at Monza in a Ferrari no less - but that was a racing incident, and he was always respected as one of the cleanest racers of the time.

That said, how many WDC winning drivers have had then WDC teammates during the year they won or after?

[flavio81]

I'll let Martin Brundle explain with his own words, and then you can see how Senna attempts his overoptimistic overtake and almost kills Brundle:

http://youtu.be/4oLSYSJO5Ik?t=6m4s

Edited by flavio81, 26 September 2012 - 18:18.

[MarcelBrDirani]

Yes Ayrton almost destroyed F1 with his agression. The ugly side of Schumacher would never seen the day if not by the steps first done by Senna in that direction.

You know very litlle about MS.

In 1990, Ms had rammed Johnny Cecotto wich was fighting for the title in DTM

While karting, MS in had to run away in order to no be spanked from other competitors while racing in kart due his unbelievable attitude

Ms brake tested Mika H in Macau - F3 in 1990


Cut this "Senna is the one to blame for Michael´s ugly side". I t is not true and everyone who knows both drivers know it.

[ZooL]

I hold Prost responsible for setting the precedence in ramming your rival off the track in 1989 to win the championship. Something Schumacher copied in 1994 then tried again in 1997 and was villified for it in the modern day.

Yes Senna rammed Prost in the following year, but it was an act of revenge because he was seething at what Prost did and Balastre let him get away with it. Senna had the guts to admit he did it and why he did it, unlike Prost.

I wasn't watching F1 before the late 80's so I don't know if there was another example of a driver ramming a rival to take the WDC because he was about to be overtaken. Did Prost learn/see this from someone else in the years before? Because its obvious Schumacher learnt off Prost the 'last race how to ram your opponent if your about to lose the title™ move' and the teamate veto that Prost also had discussed in that video.

Edited by Mandzipop, 26 September 2012 - 18:53.
Prost was a typical snakey french cowardly cheat, not a real man with honour and integrity.

[as65p]

I'll let Martin Brundle explain with his own words, and then you can see how Senna attempts his overoptimistic overtake and almost kills Brundle:

http://youtu.be/4oLSYSJO5Ik?t=6m4s

Overoptimistic overtake and crash, wow, who has ever heard of such a thing in racing, especially in the lower categories. Some even carried it into F1, remember the battle for the lead in Zandvoort 1983?

[Jimisgod]

I'll let Martin Brundle explain with his own words, and then you can see how Senna attempts his overoptimistic overtake and almost kills Brundle:

http://youtu.be/4oLSYSJO5Ik?t=6m4s

Almost kills Schumacher was 100 million times closer to killing Barrichello from a deliberate move in Hungary. That was an ill considered pass, but the likelihood of that car climbing up was low, crushing Brundle was infinitesimally low and I don't think anyone has been killed like that in modern racing cars.

[ZooL]

Only senna could get called a "smart guy" for using stereotypes as an insult towards an individual.

Thats why Senna explained the situation and used the running shoes example. The point was Senna was right, Prost had a contract veto and veto'd Senna. That is cowardly. I thought it was funny and smart/witty because its lost on some people...

I could be wrong of course, could have just been an unforunate choice of word...but from Senna...I doubt it. Thats how I remember the interview anyway.

Edited by ZooL, 26 September 2012 - 18:58.

[Watkins74]

So Senna's logic was that if he got to have the running shoes with Prost it was OK if the rest of the grid wore lead shoes. I wonder how the McLaren team felt about being in the lead shoe catatgory?

Prost wasn't a coward. He just hated Senna at the time and didn't want to rub elbows in the garage with him.

[BernieEc]

So Senna's logic was that if he got to have the running shoes with Prost it was OK if the rest of the grid wore lead shoes. I wonder how the McLaren team felt about being in the lead shoe catatgory?

Prost wasn't a coward. He just hated Senna at the time and didn't want to rub elbows in the garage with him.

really...So why did he have Mansell written in to the original veto as well....although this was later changed..

I can understand if he didn't like Senna....So didn't he like Mansell as well....how coincidental they were also the 2 leading driver during those years

Edited by BernieEc, 26 September 2012 - 19:06.

[as65p]

So Senna's logic was that if he got to have the running shoes with Prost it was OK if the rest of the grid wore lead shoes. I wonder how the McLaren team felt about being in the lead shoe catatgory?

Prost wasn't a coward. He just hated Senna at the time and didn't want to rub elbows in the garage with him.

This.

Yet what I don't get is even the (usually) smarter people trying to take Sennas words literally. It was pure polemics, a last desperate attempt to rile Prost / manipulate the media enough so maybe to creature pressure on AP to take back his veto. Worth a shot, but predictably not working out.

I don't think there's anything more to it. Plus it made for a great show.

[alfa1]

All I can say is that it would have been frickin' funny (read "all out war") if there was F1 messageboards in those days!

There was an F1 message board in those days.
Usenet newsgroup rec.autos.sport
https://groups.googl...rec.autos.sport

...and using a filter for the days after that race...
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups...;2F10$2F05

Some of the postings look like they would have been made yesterday,if you change the names.
I mean, to hear Mansell complain about hotel rooms, or Prost
maneuver to bar Senna from a seat at Williams, and to hear Senna call Prost
a coward in response is just almost too much to bear. The level of whining
and crying is far in excess of a roomfull of infants who are left behind by
their mothers for the first time. These people are supposed to be
'professional' for heavens sake. They expect to be paid like professionals
and I think it is high time they started behaving accordingly.

[Watkins74]

really...So why did he have Mansell written in to the original veto as well....although this was later changed..

Mansell and Prost had been teammates before. The dimwitted Mansell really wasn't a challenge. Really.

[ZooL]

Mansell and Prost had been teammates before. The dimwitted Mansell really wasn't a challenge. Really.

Prost still had a Veto on another driver though, even though he didn't use it. So your argument is invalid. Senna was too fast and Prost knew it. The modern day example are Schumacher, who picked lapdog teamates, and now Alonso arguing to keep Massa.

[Massa]

I hold Prost responsible for setting the precedence in ramming your rival off the track in 1989 to win the championship. Something Schumacher copied in 1994 then tried again in 1997 and was villified for it in the modern day.

Yes Senna rammed Prost in the following year, but it was an act of revenge because he was seething at what Prost did and Balastre let him get away with it. Senna had the guts to admit he did it and why he did it, unlike Prost.

I wasn't watching F1 before the late 80's so I don't know if there was another example of a driver ramming a rival to take the WDC because he was about to be overtaken. Did Prost learn/see this from someone else in the years before? Because its obvious Schumacher learnt off Prost the 'last race how to ram your opponent if your about to lose the title™ move' and the teamate veto that Prost also had discussed in that video.

Poor excuses. he could hurt Prost with this crash.

Did you watch the race Hungary 90 ? This race show well how Senna was on track. Both Senna and Berger was awful that day, it was destruction derby 2.

Yes he was the quickest driver on track, the better, but it was a sore looser on track, i hate his behaviour, and i think Prost too.

[ZooL]

Poor excuses. he could hurt Prost with this crash.

Did you watch the race Hungary 90 ? This race show well how Senna was on track. Both Senna and Berger was awful that day, it was destruction derby 2.

Yes he was the quickest driver on track, the better, but it was a sore looser on track, i hate his behaviour, and i think Prost too.

Nah Senna wasn't the type to kill someone, a nutter yes, a killer like Schumacher I don't think he was.
I could say the same thing about Prost who did it FIRST. "Prost could hurt Senna with his crash".

I can't remember Hungary 90, too long ago to remember specifics, my memory is not that good. I did think at the time that Prost was a cheat though. I remember he took Mansells Ferrari without him knowing. I felt he was colluding with the FIA President Balastre, who guess what was French and pro Prost (French). The Frenchies were together. In particular Suzuka 90 where Senna was on Pole for last race of the season title showdown and the FIA (read Balastre) moved pole position to the dirty side with no explanation so Prost had the clean side and Senna was furious. Think of the modern day equivalent of Ferrari signing illegal veto's with the FIA a few years ago, or Mosley's vendetta against McLaren. It was real bad, Senna was fighting on and off the track.

Edited by ZooL, 26 September 2012 - 19:48.