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#51 korzeniow

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:14

Monza


Only due to diffrent strategy, Kimi still beat Kobayahi on equal strategy and he would beat Perez too if he would be such a bad qualifier

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#52 SCUDmissile

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:19

What about Canada? Grosjean and Perez were on a similar strategy, no?

#53 korzeniow

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:21

What about Canada? Grosjean and Perez were on a similar strategy, no?


Still diffrent strategy, but the same scenario of Perez undeperforming in quali

#54 BetaVersion

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:33

I see you agree with me, since you didn't name any of those supposedly many races that Sauber were faster than Lotus and you fake laughter is just cover for your lack of arguments


dude, you're just :drunk: right now.

Firstly you do post that Sauber was faster than everybody, Button apart, in Spa. Then you say they were never faster than Lotus

Logic is not your thing, is it?

Why will I bother to bring the obvious lot's of tracks where Sauber had more pace when I'm discussing with someone who deny logic?

#55 korzeniow

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:36

dude, you're just :drunk: right now.

Firstly you do post that Sauber was faster than everybody, Button apart, in Spa. Then you say they were never faster than Lotus

Logic is not your thing, is it?

Why will I bother to bring the obvious lot's of tracks where Sauber had more pace when I'm discussing with someone who deny logic?


Your method of covering up your lack of arguments went from laughter to insults. :down:

You can as well stop this because I think most people can see for what you are

Edited by korzeniow, 29 September 2012 - 21:37.


#56 BetaVersion

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:42

Only due to diffrent strategy, Kimi still beat Kobayahi on equal strategy and he would beat Perez too if he would be such a bad qualifier


see, everytime I would mention a track, you would then come with an excuse: "no, it was this and that"

In Spa it was because of the rainy Friday(same for everybody and setup is mostly for driver confort and not that much for speed, so wouldn't change Sauber beating Lotus as it didn't affect Mclaren dominant pace, for instance). In Monza, it was strategy. So why didn't Kimi go for a 1 stop, then? I answer that for you, because he couldn't be as fast as Sauber whilst having to conserve tires as well

#57 BetaVersion

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:50

Your method of covering up your lack of arguments went from laughter to insults. :down:

You can as well stop this because I think most people can see for what you are


I argued. It's now you who is desperate trying to focus the attention on something else now that you realised you were ridiculously wrong with that "Lotus hardcore fan statement"

When somebody posts something as silly as you did, there's no point in arguing because there is no logic involved in the claim, in the first place. Laugh is the only thing that can be done

Afterall, how can you take someone seriously when he claims "Sauber was never(in bold) faster than Lotus"?

It's just comedy gold

PS: You better hope for Sauber not to outpace Lotus again, in Suzuka. Because you'll have to come up with another excuse

Edited by BetaVersion, 29 September 2012 - 21:55.


#58 korzeniow

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:51

see, everytime I would mention a track, you would then come with an excuse: "no, it was this and that"

In Spa it was because of the rainy Friday(same for everybody and setup is mostly for driver confort and not that much for speed, so wouldn't change Sauber beating Lotus as it didn't affect Mclaren dominant pace, for instance). In Monza, it was strategy. So why didn't Kimi go for a 1 stop, then? I answer that for you, because he couldn't be as fast as Sauber whilst having to conserve tires as well


Oh, so you admit you preffer trolling over discussion

FYI Kimi was on one stopper too in Italy, but on diffrent strategy from Perez. Kobayashi was on the same strategy as Kimi though, as he too started from top 10. And it's common knowledge that Lotus and Sauber are good on the tyres. I doubt you could find anyone to agree with you that E20 is bad with preserving the tyres

It's pointles to speculate how Spa would have ended if not for the crash so technicaly Sauber didn't beat Lotus on pace there


#59 BetaVersion

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 21:57

Oh, so you admit you preffer trolling over discussion

FYI Kimi was on one stopper too in Italy, but on diffrent strategy from Perez. Kobayashi was on the same strategy as Kimi though, as he too started from top 10. And it's common knowledge that Lotus and Sauber are good on the tyres. I doubt you could find anyone to agree with you that E20 is bad with preserving the tyres

It's pointles to speculate how Spa would have ended if not for the crash so technicaly Sauber didn't beat Lotus on pace there


You were the one trolling, in the first place, with that silly claim.

If anybody comes here saying HRT is faster than Caterham, that can be only treated with laugh. There is simply no point whatsoever to try to debate with such person

About the Spa thing you said, before the crash there was a qualifying session and Kobayashi was over 3 tenths faster than "Spa Master" Kimi. Sauber simply was faster than Lotus on pure pace, ie, qualifying.

I'm a Sauber fan and you're a Lotus fan. Maybe you got a little carried away with my hype towards Sauber approaching Suzuka weekend, but there was no need for you to say such absurd on that post ;)

Obviously Lotus have been faster more often but that's very far from what you were suggesting

Edited by BetaVersion, 29 September 2012 - 22:05.


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#60 Jimisgod

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:41

If I was Kobayashi, I'd try to get one of Perez's funky strategies and hope to drive it onto the podium.

1. K. Kobayashi
2. K. Raikkonen
3. M. Schumacher
4. L. Hamilton
5. J. Button
6. S. Perez
7. R. Grosjean
8. N. Hulkenberg
9. M. Webber
10. D. Ricciardo

Would be nice.

Alonso tangles with Vettel, and the WDC opens up.

Edited by Jimisgod, 30 September 2012 - 09:44.


#61 BorkoF2012

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:33

And I gotta be honest, I don't understand why Button is so good round here. Sure he has won round here, but I would say Vettel is more of a Suzuka specialist than anyone.

Well, for McLaren fans it's enough that one of their drivers finishes two times on the podium, and they will proclaim him as an expert for the certain track. It's been said that Hamilton is Monaco expert, and he has one win and one second place there. Before last year, Button finished on the podium just once in Suzuka, and after the win, he is now expert.

#62 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:41

Well, for McLaren fans it's enough that one of their drivers finishes two times on the podium, and they will proclaim him as an expert for the certain track. It's been said that Hamilton is Monaco expert, and he has one win and one second place there. Before last year, Button finished on the podium just once in Suzuka, and after the win, he is now expert.

if you look at his record and consider the cars he has driven throughout his career, button is very good round suzuka.

#63 muramasa

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:43


Jenson visited SUGO circuit in Miyagi pref, one of areas affected by 311 earthquakes and tsunami.
seems the visit was in part about filming documentary program by NHK, japan's public TV.

http://www.f1-stinge...t803/041835.php

Posted Image

Posted Image

:D

Edited by muramasa, 30 September 2012 - 10:44.


#64 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:49

I see 2 podiums. The 4th in 2003 was impressive along with the 5th in 2005, but surely to be 'amazing' at a track, toy have to have won more than once?
Like Hamilton at Canada, or Vettel at Suzuka (a podium every time he raced there) or Alonso at Malaysia, Massa at Brazil.

I would say Button's best track is Australia.

Not really if you havent got the car to win then you cant
You should judge it on the cars they have had throughout there career.

Edited by zack1994, 30 September 2012 - 10:50.


#65 fisssssi

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:51

I think Kamui made a big mistake last year by trying to please the crowd going fastest in Q2, and wasting a set of soft tyres.

It backfired in the race because he was on a compromised strategy and ended up out of the points, while Perez picked up a few.

He has to get the strategy right this time as the Sauber should be plenty fast.

#66 BorkoF2012

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:56

if you look at his record and consider the cars he has driven throughout his career, button is very good round suzuka.

I am sorry, but I don't agree. He has been occasionally very good, but when he was driving really good cars in Suzuka, he managed to get a great result just once, and that was last year. For example, Barrichello beat him in 2009, McLaren was faster than Ferrari in 2010 at Suzuka and yet he was behind Alonso both in Q and in the race, also he was slower than Hamilton in Q but Lewis had a 5 place penalty because of gearbox change. Sato also outqualified him in 2004, when BAR was the second best car. I am not saying that he is not driving well there, but an expert would certainly need to do more.

#67 SCUDmissile

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:04

Not really if you havent got the car to win then you cant
You should judge it on the cars they have had throughout there career.

for example, if you call him an expert at any track, I would say that track is Australia. 3 wins and 2 pole positions. He is very good round there, but I don't see how he is thaty good round Suzuka, that is all.

#68 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:05

Well, for McLaren fans it's enough that one of their drivers finishes two times on the podium, and they will proclaim him as an expert for the certain track. It's been said that Hamilton is Monaco expert, and he has one win and one second place there. Before last year, Button finished on the podium just once in Suzuka, and after the win, he is now expert.


And for his non-fans they don't actually read what is said and twist the words to suit their agenda.

No one said he was an expert, just that he does well at Suzuka, and that's true. He has a very good record there and lack of podiums and wins is more todo with the quality of the cars.

#69 muramasa

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:10

I think Kamui made a big mistake last year by trying to please the crowd going fastest in Q2, and wasting a set of soft tyres.

It backfired in the race because he was on a compromised strategy and ended up out of the points, while Perez picked up a few.

He has to get the strategy right this time as the Sauber should be plenty fast.

it was team's mistake, team wanted to be on safe side maybe but his time was clearly safe enough. Even I was like "wtf...? :confused: ".

He had to do 53% or so of total race distance with hards to take checqued flag, actually his pace was good for such strategy and tyre, without cliffing or even dropouts for that final stint. So actually, to me Kobayashi's Suzuka last year was one of quite impressive and memorable races from him, but of course no one look at races and pay attention like that.



#70 BorkoF2012

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:15

And for his non-fans they don't actually read what is said and twist the words to suit their agenda.

No one said he was an expert, just that he does well at Suzuka, and that's true. He has a very good record there and lack of podiums and wins is more todo with the quality of the cars.

I have already written that when he actually had good cars, he wasn't that good, except in 2011. I would say Australia and Hockenheim are his best tracks. In 2004, he drove a really great race at Hockenheim, in 2005, 2006, and 2012 he was also verry good there.

Edited by BorkoF2012, 30 September 2012 - 11:16.


#71 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:18

I have already written that when he actually had good cars, he wasn't that good, except in 2011. I would say Australia and Hockenheim are his best tracks. In 2004, he drove a really great race at Hockenheim, in 2005, 2006, and 2012 he was also verry good there.


But you still took a dig at his fans with something that wasn't said.

#72 BorkoF2012

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:19

Ok, but it sounded like he has been proclaimed as an expert. And earlier this year it has been said that Hamilton is a Monaco expert.

#73 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:26

203mm of rain with 25mph winds through Mie Prefecture (where Suzuka is) in 7 hours today. Anyone else glad we're there next weekend and not this?

#74 race addicted

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:39

I think Kamui made a big mistake last year by trying to please the crowd going fastest in Q2, and wasting a set of soft tyres.

It backfired in the race because he was on a compromised strategy and ended up out of the points, while Perez picked up a few.

He has to get the strategy right this time as the Sauber should be plenty fast.


He was only fastest in Q1, and Q2 for his part followed a normal routine.

....

I agree that Button has had some really good drives here, and I expect him to qualify right with Hamilton, hopefully a front-row lock-out.

Next up, and fighting convincingly should be Vettel.
A bit surprisingly, Massa outqualified Alonso here last year, but I'd be surprised if he could do that again.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed Lotus has a problem-free practice one and two, where their important updates deliver 100% on their promise. If they do I think Lotus will be back to where they were during the summer. Especially in qualifying, the last two Grands Prix has been disappointing, even if they maxed out the car apart from in Singapore.
I absolutely expect Sauber to be convincingly fast here, like at Spa. Hopefully it will yield good points this time.

The group behind McLaren and Red Bull - 'cause I expect them to be a little out of reach for the rest - should be extremely tight. Ferrari could of course be on from-row pace, but I doubt that.

Edited by race addicted, 30 September 2012 - 11:42.


#75 Juggles

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:43

Jenson visited SUGO circuit in Miyagi pref, one of areas affected by 311 earthquakes and tsunami.
seems the visit was in part about filming documentary program by NHK, japan's public TV.

http://www.f1-stinge...t803/041835.php

Posted Image

Posted Image

:D


Love the pictures, good for Button. Is he wearing leather trousers...

We're at the stage where I just want to consume the remaining races all at once like one huge gulp of petrol-flavoured lucozade. A week gap I can cope with, two weeks is just painful.

Bluntly, I've never fully understood the hype around Suzuka. I've found all of the previous three races there quite dull and the track doesn't seem spectacular enough to make up for that. Maybe this is the year that changes my mind.

#76 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:47

Bluntly, I've never fully understood the hype around Suzuka. I've found all of the previous three races there quite dull and the track doesn't seem spectacular enough to make up for that. Maybe this is the year that changes my mind.


With the drivers it's because it has a bit of everything. Straights, chicanes, quick corners, slow corners, challenging corners, the fact that for example if you mess up the first part of the esses you're screwed for the rest of the sector and effectively for the rest of the lap so you have to get it perfect everytime.

#77 SamH123

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:52

I predict the following pecking order for Suzuka Qualifying pace:

1) Mclaren
couple tenths gap
2) Ferrari = Lotus
very small gap
4) Sauber = Red Bull
6) Williams
7) Force India = Mercedes
9) Torro Rosso

Putting Ferrari above RB is a bit of a guess but just how i see it.

How easy is overtaking on this track? I figure track position is not particularly important


#78 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:00

I reckon another Hamilton pole and win, he just seems on it at the moment, only reliability stopped him from pure domination in Singapore.

Button/Vettel/Alonso in any order for 2nd/3rd/4th I would expect

Raikonen top 5 as well, reckon Lotus will be back on form here a bit.

Rosberg somewhere in the top 10 as well

#79 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:03

If I was Kobayashi, I'd try to get one of Perez's funky strategies and hope to drive it onto the podium.

1. K. Kobayashi
2. K. Raikkonen
3. M. Schumacher
4. L. Hamilton
5. J. Button
6. S. Perez
7. R. Grosjean
8. N. Hulkenberg
9. M. Webber
10. D. Ricciardo

Would be nice.

Alonso tangles with Vettel, and the WDC opens up.


dream on, if that's the grid I will eat a cat.


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#80 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:06

I am sorry, but I don't agree. He has been occasionally very good, but when he was driving really good cars in Suzuka, he managed to get a great result just once, and that was last year. For example, Barrichello beat him in 2009, McLaren was faster than Ferrari in 2010 at Suzuka and yet he was behind Alonso both in Q and in the race, also he was slower than Hamilton in Q but Lewis had a 5 place penalty because of gearbox change. Sato also outqualified him in 2004, when BAR was the second best car. I am not saying that he is not driving well there, but an expert would certainly need to do more.

Rubens did beat him but if you look at there race pace button was quicker.
Button was slower than lewis in 2010 quali, but he done his lap with hard tyres and fuel for 3 laps not 1 which lewis had, jenson's lap was brilliant if you take that into account.
And sato did outqualify him, but with 3 laps less fuel onboard and the quali gap was 2 and half tenths so it was close but that would mean button done a better lap.
I'm not saying he is the best round suzuka, just saying he is one of the best.

#81 Juggles

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:06

dream on, if that's the grid I will eat a cat.


Not enough of a forfeit, a cat could actually be quite enjoyable. A rat at least, a bat if you're feeling adventurous.

#82 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:13

Wonder what they'd have done had they had to cancel the race if we were there this weekend. Not possible to reschedule, so I guess it'd have been 1 race less in the championship with no points awarded, though it would've obviously been annoying to go to Japan, get everything ready, be on track for 2 days and then not race. Definitely got lucky in the sense that we're not there this weekend.

#83 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:33

Wonder what they'd have done had they had to cancel the race if we were there this weekend. Not possible to reschedule, so I guess it'd have been 1 race less in the championship with no points awarded, though it would've obviously been annoying to go to Japan, get everything ready, be on track for 2 days and then not race. Definitely got lucky in the sense that we're not there this weekend.


Well there was the year when Q was cancelled on Saturday and run on Sunday instead. Has a race weekend ever been cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances?

#84 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:35

dream on, if that's the grid I will eat a cat.


I can't find Maldonado on it, so don't worry.

#85 sesku

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:35

Bluntly, I've never fully understood the hype around Suzuka. I've found all of the previous three races there quite dull and the track doesn't seem spectacular enough to make up for that. Maybe this is the year that changes my mind.

How old are you? Suzuka produce pretty good race especially when it was the season Finale. The Prost-Senna moment, Kimi on Fisichella 2005, Alonso on Schumacher at 130R, 2003 Japanese GP.

#86 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:36

Well there was the year when Q was cancelled on Saturday and run on Sunday instead. Has a race weekend ever been cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances?


Yeah but that year they still got the race in. Also Spa in 85 (it may have been that year, can't remember exactly) was postponed during the race weekend if memory serves, that was in June and was then moved to September, but obviously with a race at this stage of the season, it'd be extremely difficult to reschedule at such short notice.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 30 September 2012 - 13:38.


#87 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:40

Yeah but that year they still got the race in. Also Spa in 85 (it may have been that year, can't remember exactly) was postponed during the race weekend if memory serves, that was in June and was then moved to September, but obviously with a race at this stage of the season, it'd be extremely difficult to reschedule at such short notice.


Was that during the race weekend? I thought it was before, but really can't remember. I suspect the calendar was far more flexible back then as TV didn't have the stranglehold it now has.

#88 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:42

I can't remember exactly myself, hence making sure I pointed out I wasn't certain. However, it still left enough time to reschedule, whereas had we been racing this weekend and the race would've been cancelled (which it would've been) there'd be far less chance of rescheduling, unless we went into December or basically did 4 races in 4 weeks, as obviously from now until the end of the season it's 3 double headers, each separated by a 1 week break.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 30 September 2012 - 13:42.


#89 OoxLox

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:45

How old are you? Suzuka produce pretty good race especially when it was the season Finale. The Prost-Senna moment, Kimi on Fisichella 2005, Alonso on Schumacher at 130R, 2003 Japanese GP.


I saw one journo later describe that overtake as the moment the torch passed from Schumacher to Alonso and the new generation. Usual journo hype language, but it was a great move and looking back it's one of those things I'll always have in my highlights reel. The Prost Senna crash made me throw things at the telly at the time and still makes me mad to think such an amazing rivalry had to be settled like that. So yeah, Suzuka's produced some stand-out F1 moments. My favourite has got to be Murray Walker's commentary on the last lap in 96 though :cool:

#90 Juggles

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:48

How old are you? Suzuka produce pretty good race especially when it was the season Finale. The Prost-Senna moment, Kimi on Fisichella 2005, Alonso on Schumacher at 130R, 2003 Japanese GP.


Early 20s but I think the main reason is that I started watching in 2007 so I've only seen the 2009, 2010 and 2011 races in their entirety. I've seen clips of all the moments you mention so I do have some sense of its history, but is there a chance it has built its reputation on being the last race of the season for quite a chunk of time? Prost-Senna could have happened anywhere given they both lasted about 200m.

I remember the excitement in 2009, the whisperings on the forums and in the media that Suzuka was back on the calendar. Given the awe it seems to inspire in many I just don't think it has delivered over the last few years. 2003 and 2005 were clearly exciting races though and I really want to like Suzuka given the fondness with which the drivers and fans speak about it.

#91 SunnyENTP

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:53

Button has a pretty good record at suzuka always been in the top 8 and finished everytime
2000 5th
2001 7th
2002 6th
2003 4th
2004 3rd
2005 5th
2006 4th
2009 8th
2010 4th
2011 1st



Why do i get the feeling you have jinxed him :|

#92 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:57

Not too sure I'd say 2 podiums in 10 races there is a pretty good record. Yeah he's been in the top 8 every time, but a pretty good record over the course of 10 races would be 2-4 wins, another 2-3 podiums and a few other top 6 finishes.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 30 September 2012 - 13:57.


#93 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:59

Not too sure I'd say 2 podiums in 10 races there is a pretty good record. Yeah he's been in the top 8 every time, but a pretty good record over the course of 10 races would be 2-4 wins, another 2-3 podiums and a few other top 6 finishes.


Your forgetting the quality of the cars for much of that time.


#94 Disgrace

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:00

You could also consider what cars he has been driving in his career. The one race he had the car to win, he won.

#95 Atreiu

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:06

I think he could have done better in 2010. Hamilton was much more competitive despite the grid penalty and then he lost a gear during the race. JBs tyre choice in qualifying did him no good as well.
Except old Schumacher, nobody looks that much better than the rest around Suzuka. Vettel dominated it twice and is the obvius current candidate for Suzuka specialist, but the Red Bull was on its own, IMO. Last year it was one of his quietest races, but he just had to keep it together for the title.

#96 muramasa

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:25

Wonder what they'd have done had they had to cancel the race if we were there this weekend. Not possible to reschedule, so I guess it'd have been 1 race less in the championship with no points awarded, though it would've obviously been annoying to go to Japan, get everything ready, be on track for 2 days and then not race. Definitely got lucky in the sense that we're not there this weekend.

Either race on Sat or Monday.

Or today. :D :D :D
Couldve had race today actually if started the race at 0900, it was certainly possible, but quite a few spectators cannot make it to the circuit in time. And most of those who did manage to attend the race wouldve had to remain at circuit probably until evening, but there's far from enough in-door space to keep the vast number of audiences safe from heavy wind and rain of typhoon there.
So it's not realistic anyway to have race on Sunday (today), unless organizer choose to do it behind-closed-door. Some sports like golf do that here in Japan (extremely rare case tho), today one golf match was actually done without spectators due to the typhoon approaching. So it's surely a possibility.

Whatever it is, if the race was this weekend, there wouldve been mess and confusion, miscommunication, refund, etc etc.... DEFINITELY!
If I was one of people in charge at Mobility Land (the honda subsidiary company that runs Suzuka and Motegi), I would pass out and be carried into hospital just by thinking what if it was this weekend.
Lucky indeed.

Edited by muramasa, 30 September 2012 - 14:57.


#97 michal2009b

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:46

If Sunday's race will be cancel it's possible to postpone it for Monday?

#98 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:57

If Sunday's race will be cancel it's possible to postpone it for Monday?


It's worth noting we're just talking about if the race had been this weekend. There's no issue next weekend with any risks of typhoons etc. But given the amount of rain, the flooding, the potential damage etc, and with it being a double header, they wouldn't have moved it to the Monday if it was this weekend. This is all merely hypothetical, because we're not there this weekend, it's just a case of "what would have happened if we had been there this weekend"

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 30 September 2012 - 14:58.


#99 Jimisgod

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 16:21

dream on, if that's the grid I will eat a cat.


A man can dream. :lol:

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#100 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 16:41

Why do i get the feeling you have jinxed him :|

haha sorry in advance if it all goes wrong :)