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Michael Schumacher - Part III


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#651 as65p

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 23:07

Here's a thought.

As long as Schumachers transgressions can't be talked about on their own, without bringing Senna's name in, Schumacher is always, if sub-consciously, regarded a level below.

Senna didn't need a role model to do what he did, good or bad. I say, especially to Schumachers fans, give him a chance to live on his own legacy, it's impressive enough without having a Senna asterix beneath certain events in his career history.

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#652 aliasj

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 23:38

Here's a thought.

As long as Schumachers transgressions can't be talked about on their own, without bringing Senna's name in, Schumacher is always, if sub-consciously, regarded a level below.

Senna didn't need a role model to do what he did, good or bad. I say, especially to Schumachers fans, give him a chance to live on his own legacy, it's impressive enough without having a Senna asterix beneath certain events in his career history.


Nah it isn't that. Its like that Pele vs Maradona debate, you can never convince anyone who was the best, never.

To a self-assured fan (like me, at least), I actually don't feel the urge to prove that my particular favorite driver is/was 'the best' or 'the ultimate', etc., I simply ponder more about the nostalgic aspects of greatness. I just think, (wow!) Schumacher was one of those guys that raced with Senna and Prost. I just think, this guy (Schumacher) can simply walk into a room reserved for greats like Fangio, Clark, etc., and not be asked to leave.

But nonetheless, when you really need to analyse as a fair judge.. then.

Senna was 0.1s-0.15s faster than Schumacher at their respective primes.
but, Schumacher was a better tactician and planner.

Does it matter though? Do all these numbers matter?

Its like ... The President's Club. (U.S. Presidents). No matter how you've performed as a President, but the prestige and the honor of being President remains forever. You've become History and Legend. They've been over a billion Americans born and died in the last 200 years, but they've been only 44 from those billion Americans that have become President. Ain't that mind boggling?

Its a similar ratio for F1 champions vs ALL drivers (not only other F1 drivers, but all racers from all other formulae, from around the world).

Edited by aliasj, 02 October 2012 - 23:41.


#653 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 00:49

Excuse me for butting in and reminding posters on this thread that responding to trolling/flaming is a breach of the rules as much as the original post.

If you can't be bothered to report things, then you are to blame for the downward spiral in quality!

Hint: I don't want to read over this thread and see a question such as "What are you looking for?" in response to a clear flamebait. I want a report. Then we (your team of MODs) will deal with it.

You may not see us in action, but trust me, we're always about..... doing our jobs. Please contribute in making our lives & your forum much easier & nicer to enjoy.

Thank you
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#654 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:32

Another thought...

Mercedes boss Dieter Zetsche says the company's car is to blame for their Formula One failures and not Michael Schumacher.


http://www.sbs.com.a...Schumacher-woes

Dr. Zetsche must be reading my rumbling then. :)

#655 black magic

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:59

I have resisted commenting on michael missing out on a seat with mercedes (call it dumping if you like)

None of this comes at a complete surprise and yet for me a part of f1 died when I saw the headlines. Died because it seems no one comes out smelling anything other than mercenary.

It is quite possible that Bernie drove this as Bernie does. he wanted new seats and new driver pairings and michael was in his way. He also no doubt used Lewis to entice Mercedes back into the fold - simply to make his ultimate float of f1 look more substantial.

Mercedes for accepting the bribe from Bernie that part of the sweetner was he would get them Lewis. Mercedes for accepting their car was crap and hoping that if anyone was capable of driving their car beyond its ability it had to be Lewis, thereby accepting their car was crap despite their protestations to the contrary

Naubert and Ross. no amount of vacilation on schumachers part deserved this preemptive release. after all schumacher has stood by this rabble and accepted not only a useless car but bungled strategy. hell they couldnt even change the tyres as fast as the best. The story as to who drove the release would make interesting reading one day as that will tell us who drove the changes.

The press and their dismissal of him despite his providing them with screeds to write, speculate, pontificate, soap box on ...

Nico for his limp support - buddy - he was starting to make you slow and for all your reputation and natural antipathy towards a teammate putting you under pressure he deserved way more respect that you just demonstrated. I will be cheering on Lewis - at the same time hoping the whole team implodes. Nico son, Alonso is no friend but because he wasnt directly threatened by michael any longer he was able to speak with respect

and then there is Lewis - does he really think he has the personality to put up with mediocrity whilst he struggles to help them rise above mid field and win consistantly? based on what ? no doubt he is arguably the quickest over a lap but I have seen nothing that suggests he is a real leader.

and then there is michael himself. I can well believe he has struggled to commit to next year. but given the lack of outrage and even interest really in what his final decision is - the sport has already made its call. he no longer holds that absolute position of old and the sport is ready to turn its back on him

and so a legend is allowed to be humbled because it was all in their own self interests to do so. I dont have to like someone to know they deserved respect

after michael has given so much to so many of them he deserved better - way better and for that I wish a plague on all their houses

#656 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:14

Yes, F1 died a little on that day. For me as well.

#657 exmayol

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:25

Well at least next year might give us some interesting prospective, especially if NR matches LH.

#658 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:40

I have resisted commenting on michael missing out on a seat with mercedes (call it dumping if you like)

None of this comes at a complete surprise and yet for me a part of f1 died when I saw the headlines. Died because it seems no one comes out smelling anything other than mercenary.

It is quite possible that Bernie drove this as Bernie does. he wanted new seats and new driver pairings and michael was in his way. He also no doubt used Lewis to entice Mercedes back into the fold - simply to make his ultimate float of f1 look more substantial.

Mercedes for accepting the bribe from Bernie that part of the sweetner was he would get them Lewis. Mercedes for accepting their car was crap and hoping that if anyone was capable of driving their car beyond its ability it had to be Lewis, thereby accepting their car was crap despite their protestations to the contrary

Naubert and Ross. no amount of vacilation on schumachers part deserved this preemptive release. after all schumacher has stood by this rabble and accepted not only a useless car but bungled strategy. hell they couldnt even change the tyres as fast as the best. The story as to who drove the release would make interesting reading one day as that will tell us who drove the changes.

The press and their dismissal of him despite his providing them with screeds to write, speculate, pontificate, soap box on ...

Nico for his limp support - buddy - he was starting to make you slow and for all your reputation and natural antipathy towards a teammate putting you under pressure he deserved way more respect that you just demonstrated. I will be cheering on Lewis - at the same time hoping the whole team implodes. Nico son, Alonso is no friend but because he wasnt directly threatened by michael any longer he was able to speak with respect

and then there is Lewis - does he really think he has the personality to put up with mediocrity whilst he struggles to help them rise above mid field and win consistantly? based on what ? no doubt he is arguably the quickest over a lap but I have seen nothing that suggests he is a real leader.

and then there is michael himself. I can well believe he has struggled to commit to next year. but given the lack of outrage and even interest really in what his final decision is - the sport has already made its call. he no longer holds that absolute position of old and the sport is ready to turn its back on him

and so a legend is allowed to be humbled because it was all in their own self interests to do so. I dont have to like someone to know they deserved respect

after michael has given so much to so many of them he deserved better - way better and for that I wish a plague on all their houses


Its quite unlike Michael to do this (i.e. not announce retirement while his replacement is announced) and instead go around looking for other drives with other teams, especially knowing that he is the type that sticks through with his team through thick and thin. Which makes me think that this post could be a valid interpretation of the situation at Brackley. Even though there were rumours of differences between MS and his employers at Ferrari, he did not show even an iota of discontent / regret in those last few races because his loyalty to the team was above all else. Somehow, MS and Merc just did not gell together as some of us expected.

And to be honest I dont think anyone is in the wrong here :
1. Bernie is trying to look after his own interests (and by extension the interest of F1) by trying to hold on to one of the world's most famous car manufacturers in F1.
2. Ross and Nobert are trying to look at whats best for their team in the long term, and in my opinion at this point of time Lewis is a better long term bet than Michael (especially a Michael that was undecided from the last 3 months or so)
3. Lewis was looking for a way out of his caged existence at Mclaren, even if it came at the cost of getting into what is thus far only a solid midfield team with a lot of promise.

Michael unfortunately was the victim in all of this, while other people were looking out for their own interests, MS was shown the door, as in his employers' opinion he no longer brings the same sort of value to a team as 10 years ago.

Its the brutal world of business on display here.

#659 steveninthematrix

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:01

'the tallest tree catches the most wind'

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#660 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:02

And to be honest I dont think anyone is in the wrong here

Really? When is bad behaviour "not wrong"?

1. Bernie is trying to look after his own interests (and by extension the interest of F1) by trying to hold on to one of the world's most famous car manufacturers in F1.


Yes, he has demonstrated his intentions by dealing Mercedes out, by conspiring with other three teams about Mercedes without Mercedes at the table. How noble of him. Than he writes himself a CA in the form that no legal corporation of a size like Daimler can accept, and making lawyers running wild over it.

2. Ross and Nobert are trying to look at whats best for their team in the long term... (especially a Michael that was undecided from the last 3 months or so)

Ross and Norbert could accomplish the same objective by building a better car first. Here is an idea for you!

Michael unfortunately was the victim in all of this, while other people were looking out for their own interests, MS was shown the door, as in his employers' opinion he no longer brings the same sort of value to a team as 10 years ago.


It's a mighty leap of faith to make a claim that Hamilton brings to the team more fame than Schumacher (at least in 2013). It's a popular line with Saward and people like him, but as I travel world wide, people do know who Schumacher is, rest assured. I am not so sure about the other guy.

Edited by Sakae, 03 October 2012 - 06:05.


#661 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:15

Some of the drivel posted here is truly astounding. Schumacher the innocent, sacrificial lamb in a scheme from puppetmaster Bernie and backstabbers Brawn and Haug??? :confused:

Why not accept the much more mundane and obvious truth: he has not delivered. Almost three seasons in and still making rookie mistakes, not nearly as consistent as his teammate in bagging points, do I need to go on?

His comeback is a failure, plain and simple. That does not take away anything from his past achievements, but I think Schu himself knows that his time is up, hence his hesitation to commit.




#662 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:20

He delivered everything expected this year. Mercedes failed

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 03 October 2012 - 07:20.


#663 Massa_f1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:24

He delivered everything expected this year. Mercedes failed



Apart from 2 races. Spain and Singapore. He has achieved the maximum Mercedes have allowed him. Two more podiums would of happened if not for the team letting him down. I think a lot of people fail to see this.

#664 AndreasF1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:37

Really? When is bad behaviour "not wrong"?



Yes, he has demonstrated his intentions by dealing Mercedes out, by conspiring with other three teams about Mercedes without Mercedes at the table. How noble of him. Than he writes himself a CA in the form that no legal corporation of a size like Daimler can accept, and making lawyers running wild over it.

Ross and Norbert could accomplish the same objective by building a better car first. Here is an idea for you!



It's a mighty leap of faith to make a claim that Hamilton brings to the team more fame than Schumacher (at least in 2013). It's a popular line with Saward and people like him, but as I travel world wide, people do know who Schumacher is, rest assured. I am not so sure about the other guy.




With all respect, its all a business and I don't think neiter BE nor Merc need any business advise from you. :wave:
Secondly, Schumacher gambled by waiting, not believing that Merc would move forward without him. Well, they did and he lost. He could have signed again but missed his window of opportunity.

Edited by AndreasF1, 03 October 2012 - 07:37.


#665 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:27

I don't think MS wanted to stay, hence his waiting. He has waited three years, but only in a few races the race-winning car came. That moment has passed and he only could watch from the side with a broken Mercedes.

#666 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:20

It's a mighty leap of faith to make a claim that Hamilton brings to the team more fame than Schumacher (at least in 2013). It's a popular line with Saward and people like him, but as I travel world wide, people do know who Schumacher is, rest assured. I am not so sure about the other guy.

The objective is not about fame alone, its about results. If you took a worldwide poll about who is a more known personality, the answer probably will be Schumacher. So is the case with Lance Armstrong, or Michael Jordan for that matter. It does not make them the number 1 choice in their sport (anymore) just because they're the most famous.

There is no doubt in my mind (and lets be honest, probably in the minds of anyone outside the Schumacher fan club), that Hamilton at this stage in his career is a better bet than a 43 year old Schumacher for Mercedes. Infact I'd say that Mercedes have pulled out a rabbit from their hat by being able to lure a driver of Hamilton's calibre to their team.

If you're honest with yourself, you'd realize that any one of Hamilton / Alonso / Vettel would most probably get better results than Schumacher today. Thats why the Mercedes team did what they did.

Unless you believe the only objective of Mercedes (being a German company) was to insult Germany's greatest sporting hero for some reason.

#667 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:23

With all respect, its all a business and I don't think neiter BE nor Merc need any business advise from you. :wave:
Secondly, Schumacher gambled by waiting, not believing that Merc would move forward without him. Well, they did and he lost. He could have signed again but missed his window of opportunity.

There is no need for patronizing tone, for my response was specific and withing context of previous post.

#668 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:24

Apart from 2 races. Spain and Singapore. He has achieved the maximum Mercedes have allowed him. Two more podiums would of happened if not for the team letting him down. I think a lot of people fail to see this.

I think you forgot to mention the biggest mistakes he made at Hungary. Thats 3 races which Schumacher himself destroyed for Mercedes. Why is this not a factor when we analyze the season ? Yes, he has had insane bad luck as well, but he has screwed roughly 1 out of every 3 races this season by his own doing, due to his own mistakes which is not expected of a top of the line F1 driver. So there is a performance aspect to Schumacher being replaced, quite clearly.

#669 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:42

There is no doubt in my mind (and lets be honest, probably in the minds of anyone outside the Schumacher fan club), that Hamilton at this stage in his career is a better bet than a 43 year old Schumacher for Mercedes. Infact I'd say that Mercedes have pulled out a rabbit from their hat by being able to lure a driver of Hamilton's calibre to their team.

Depends what's on your mind, for there no black and white answer here, IMO. Schumacher is more complete and accomplished than Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso together. He is also more matured. In terms of talent and skills, I think he he a level up above Hamilton. There is only one department where he is loosing to Hamilton, and that is, he is not in it for next next several years, as Hamilton probably will be. Maybe a year or two for Michael, but then his age will kick in despite that he is still good enough for where we are in F1 today.

His image is probabbly selling Ok, as he still mounts an interest among advertisers.

If you're honest with yourself, you'd realize that any one of Hamilton / Alonso / Vettel would most probably get better results than Schumacher today. Thats why the Mercedes team did what they did.

I doubt it.

Unless you believe the only objective of Mercedes (being a German company) was to insult Germany's greatest sporting hero for some reason.

Of course not.

Edited by Sakae, 03 October 2012 - 09:43.


#670 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:52

Depends what's on your mind, for there no black and white answer here, IMO. Schumacher is more complete and accomplished than Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso together. He is also more matured. In terms of talent and skills, I think he he a level up above Hamilton. There is only one department where he is loosing to Hamilton, and that is, he is not in it for next next several years, as Hamilton probably will be. Maybe a year or two for Michael, but then his age will kick in despite that he is still good enough for where we are in F1 today.

His image is probabbly selling Ok, as he still mounts an interest among advertisers.


I doubt it.

Of course not.

Its interesting to read opinions that are obviously coloured and atleast to me, seem highly unrealistic. However if you'd ask all the team bosses about whether they had to pick one driver they would all unanimously vote for either Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso. If it werent the case, we wouldnt have found Schumacher without a seat in F1 today. This is the harsh reality which I think you will not accept as you seem to think Schumacher is one of the best today. If Schumacher really were as good as you're making it out to be in this post, Ferrari / Mclaren / Red Bull would have pursued him as he did not have a contract for 2013. Instead they chose to go with an untested talent (Perez), or retain drivers with average performance - Webber and Massa(probably).

Lets hear it then, why do you really think Mercedes replaced Schumacher with Hamilton ?

#671 sharo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:14

I think you forgot to mention the biggest mistakes he made at Hungary. Thats 3 races which Schumacher himself destroyed for Mercedes. Why is this not a factor when we analyze the season ? Yes, he has had insane bad luck as well, but he has screwed roughly 1 out of every 3 races this season by his own doing, due to his own mistakes which is not expected of a top of the line F1 driver. So there is a performance aspect to Schumacher being replaced, quite clearly.

Every thing has it's causes. We saw the visible side but do not know and may never learn why. Simplistic explanations like old age do not hold.


#672 1Devil1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:16

I think you forgot to mention the biggest mistakes he made at Hungary. Thats 3 races which Schumacher himself destroyed for Mercedes. Why is this not a factor when we analyze the season ? Yes, he has had insane bad luck as well, but he has screwed roughly 1 out of every 3 races this season by his own doing, due to his own mistakes which is not expected of a top of the line F1 driver. So there is a performance aspect to Schumacher being replaced, quite clearly.


He screwed one out of three? I don't know which season you are watching but one out of three would be total amount of nine races. So far in this season we had 14 races which means even when you say he made three mistakes it would be 14/3 = 4,6667=5. If you using statics to blame a driver perhaps you should do it right. In my book Michael made two mistakes which cost him valuable points. Hungary was lost before the start. And expect of Alonso and Hamilton every top driver made mistakes this season so far.

Button = mid season too slow.
Weber = too slow after european season
Vettel = a lot of penalties, was not top notch in the quali
Grosjean = crashing all the time
Rosberg = his starts were bad, he lost so much places at the start. I stopped counting

Schumacher shouldn't have made this mistakes but I see nothing other have done better..

#673 sharo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:18

...................
Lets hear it then, why do you really think Mercedes replaced Schumacher with Hamilton ?

Because Schumacher did not see a good reason to continue to drive for them and because on the other hand they (Brawn and Haug) had to do something to save their own a.ses.

#674 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:23

Its interesting to read opinions that are obviously coloured and atleast to me, seem highly unrealistic. However if you'd ask all the team bosses about whether they had to pick one driver they would all unanimously vote for either Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso. If it werent the case, we wouldnt have found Schumacher without a seat in F1 today. This is the harsh reality which I think you will not accept as you seem to think Schumacher is one of the best today. If Schumacher really were as good as you're making it out to be in this post, Ferrari / Mclaren / Red Bull would have pursued him as he did not have a contract for 2013. Instead they chose to go with an untested talent (Perez), or retain drivers with average performance - Webber and Massa(probably).

Lets hear it then, why do you really think Mercedes replaced Schumacher with Hamilton ?

Choice of a driver for your stable is not straight forward process as some fans might think. Depends where a team is with their development, feasibility of driver's integration and everything else has to come together. I cannot prejudge what team bossess would say, but not everyone would choose Hamilton as his fans think. Dome in his recent interview was asked, Vettel or Hamilton, and he responded - Vettel (because he most likely knows that Hamilton will be difficult to be integrated in SF at the moment).

I have no clue why Michael and Mercedes hasn't reached an agreement, and to make any claims one way or another seems to be self-serving theories. Dropping his option is one clue that he has trepidation about future rate of development at Brackley. New broomstick (Lauda) is already on the record that "he will have to look at it", indicating that promises and business plan is one thing, moving actually forward in positive manner is another. Then there are rumours, and hard to know what went on behind closed door, but I am inclined to believe, that once Lauda inserted himself as na intermediary to negotiate CA, and it was increasingly clear that Hamilton could be moved, dynamics of that situation has changed, and what were intially merely build up of contingencies, with some arm twisting by Ecclestone, actual horse trading took place, and it was duo Eccleston/Lauda who made Mercedes's minds not to extend Michael's contract. (I am of course speculating about this as everyone else).

Edited by Sakae, 03 October 2012 - 10:26.


#675 jav

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:55

Having some time to digest this, I think this is Mercs last trump card. It seems the only way to take attention away from thier failure to deliver a front running car.... at least temporarily. With Lewis demeanor, God help the team if they can't up there game in design and especially development. Lewis is used to world class development pace and Merc is known for non existent development. My guess is this has been discussed and he's been assured that the "new dream team" won't be in full effect until the debute of W04. Lewis probably bought that, like we fans have bought into similar promises 3 years running. I suppose things could change, but I've been to that well once too often to buy it now.

Given MS comments, lack thereof, and unwillingness to re-sign early, my thought is that he's OK with this. If I had lost faith in a team that I'd supported and defended for 3 years as vigorously and loyally as Micheal has, only to find that despite every excuse and promise, bringing in new talent, quiting on 2 seasons early for the promise of a better platform next year and continued mediocrity in design, development, reliability and performance... I think this looks better than outright quiting. Quiting would be viewed as blame, dis-loyalty or even dishonesty with respect to past statements of hope and support. That would have made Micheal look like the bad guy- this reduces his negative exposure and is even justifiable on the team side (with his delayed signing and acquisition of a top driver).

Seems to me if Micheal were looking to retire, the best time to do that has past. I suspect he has something in the works and, true to his word, will anounce it this month. How and when I suspect will dependant on how his next race or two go both from a performance standpoint and how Mercedes treats him going forward. As an MS fan, I have hope that he will fare better than Lewis or Mercedes next year.

Edited by jav, 03 October 2012 - 12:57.


#676 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 13:00

Some of the drivel posted here is truly astounding. Schumacher the innocent, sacrificial lamb in a scheme from puppetmaster Bernie and backstabbers Brawn and Haug??? :confused:

Why not accept the much more mundane and obvious truth: he has not delivered. Almost three seasons in and still making rookie mistakes, not nearly as consistent as his teammate in bagging points, do I need to go on?

His comeback is a failure, plain and simple. That does not take away anything from his past achievements, but I think Schu himself knows that his time is up, hence his hesitation to commit.


I find this idea baffling. I used to laugh at the idea, along with many others, that MS could win in a Minardi (an old bit), because no driver could transcend utter crap machinery.

Now, when MS has failed to win in a crap Mercedes, we are contending that he has not delivered.

Did we expect him to win in the car that Merc has produced this past 3 years?

Could LH have won in a Merc?

I seriously do not think so.

All this talk of MS's hesitation to commit merely reflects Mercedes' failure to commit to F1. They only signed the new CA last week!!!



#677 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 13:11

I have resisted commenting on michael missing out on a seat with mercedes (call it dumping if you like)

None of this comes at a complete surprise and yet for me a part of f1 died when I saw the headlines. Died because it seems no one comes out smelling anything other than mercenary.

It is quite possible that Bernie drove this as Bernie does. he wanted new seats and new driver pairings and michael was in his way. He also no doubt used Lewis to entice Mercedes back into the fold - simply to make his ultimate float of f1 look more substantial.

Mercedes for accepting the bribe from Bernie that part of the sweetner was he would get them Lewis. Mercedes for accepting their car was crap and hoping that if anyone was capable of driving their car beyond its ability it had to be Lewis, thereby accepting their car was crap despite their protestations to the contrary

Naubert and Ross. no amount of vacilation on schumachers part deserved this preemptive release. after all schumacher has stood by this rabble and accepted not only a useless car but bungled strategy. hell they couldnt even change the tyres as fast as the best. The story as to who drove the release would make interesting reading one day as that will tell us who drove the changes.

The press and their dismissal of him despite his providing them with screeds to write, speculate, pontificate, soap box on ...

Nico for his limp support - buddy - he was starting to make you slow and for all your reputation and natural antipathy towards a teammate putting you under pressure he deserved way more respect that you just demonstrated. I will be cheering on Lewis - at the same time hoping the whole team implodes. Nico son, Alonso is no friend but because he wasnt directly threatened by michael any longer he was able to speak with respect

and then there is Lewis - does he really think he has the personality to put up with mediocrity whilst he struggles to help them rise above mid field and win consistantly? based on what ? no doubt he is arguably the quickest over a lap but I have seen nothing that suggests he is a real leader.

and then there is michael himself. I can well believe he has struggled to commit to next year. but given the lack of outrage and even interest really in what his final decision is - the sport has already made its call. he no longer holds that absolute position of old and the sport is ready to turn its back on him

and so a legend is allowed to be humbled because it was all in their own self interests to do so. I dont have to like someone to know they deserved respect

after michael has given so much to so many of them he deserved better - way better and for that I wish a plague on all their houses


I agree.

I think that there is a lot of scapegoating going on at Mercedes.

And I think that the implicate message is that MS let the team down.

I understand that MS is not what he once was. But, he is still good enough to contest for the WDC in a good car.

Mansell was past his prime when he won in the Williams.

Prost was past his prime when he won in the Williams.

This idea that LH, a great driver, represents the missing ingredient for Mercedes is ridiculous.

The missing ingredient is a Adrian Newey, a Rory Bryne.....

The missing ingredient is a proper car.

MS did not let the team down. In fact, the class that he exhibited when the car was failing him served to bolster the team.

I do not know how LH, FA, SV, would have stopped wheels falling off.....

I simply do not understand that....

#678 race addicted

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:53

From the Q&A on Autosport;

Is there anything that irritates you about Formula 1 today? (Michael Bobrov, Russia)

MS: Black gold.

JR: Er... could you elaborate?

MS: Think about it.


-What does he mean here?

Is he dissing todays Lotus for being "fake", perhaps?

Edited by race addicted, 03 October 2012 - 14:53.


#679 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:56

From the Q&A on Autosport;

Is there anything that irritates you about Formula 1 today? (Michael Bobrov, Russia)

MS: Black gold.

JR: Er... could you elaborate?

MS: Think about it.


-What does he mean here?

Is he dissing todays Lotus for being "fake", perhaps?


Black gold is what usually people call Oil (Crude oil). I don't know what he is hinting at. Maybe oil sponsors? Just a stab in the dark.

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#680 penta1998

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:58

From the Q&A on Autosport;

Is there anything that irritates you about Formula 1 today? (Michael Bobrov, Russia)

MS: Black gold.

JR: Er... could you elaborate?

MS: Think about it.


-What does he mean here?

Is he dissing todays Lotus for being "fake", perhaps?


He means the tyres, i think

#681 ali.unal

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:58

He means the tyres, i think

:up:

#682 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:58

It's probably about oil money.
He might not like the new venues which were bought with oil .


edit : or the tires but that would be an unusual description.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 October 2012 - 14:59.


#683 RudyO

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:01

Black gold is what usually people call Oil (Crude oil). I don't know what he is hinting at. Maybe oil sponsors? Just a stab in the dark.

He is referring to the tires, obviously. In German TV he has used that expression a couple of times.

#684 race addicted

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:02

Using the expression "Black gold" wouldn't be anything close to mysterious, if he really didn't want to say it absolutely, that he didn't like finances coming from oil. (As if Schumacher has ever cared about things like that.)

The suggestion that it is tires, is an interesting one. He doesn't like these tires which tend to burn up if you lean on them and try to push. I'm glad he said it.

#685 Lelouch

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:02

Black gold is what usually people call Oil (Crude oil). I don't know what he is hinting at. Maybe oil sponsors? Just a stab in the dark.

My initial thought was that he was referring to the tires tbh.

#686 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:03

He is referring to the tires, obviously. In German TV he has used that expression a couple of times.


Ah, thanks.

#687 Slowinfastout

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:03

Weird comment, fair enough if that's how he calls the tires but I don't think there's anything obvious about it when left without an explanation.



#688 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:04

He means the tyres, i think

black tyres with gold pirelli logo :)

#689 Mr M0by

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:05

From the Q&A on Autosport;

Is there anything that irritates you about Formula 1 today? (Michael Bobrov, Russia)

MS: Black gold.

JR: Er... could you elaborate?

MS: Think about it.


-What does he mean here?

Is he dissing todays Lotus for being "fake", perhaps?


When I read it in the mag, I assumed he meant tyres.


#690 penta1998

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:06

He is referring to the tires, obviously. In German TV he has used that expression a couple of times.

Coming to think of it, Schumacher has been the most vocal against Pirelli this year. However with 14 races done this year, the team which has handled the tyres the worst seem to Mercedes. I wonder if he has got it wrong. What i mean is that yes the tyres are the same for everyone, have a narrow working window, have been a lottery etc, but eventually the Mercedes team has been the worst (at least that what i think) to deal with them. In another car he might have a slight softer stance against them, critical but not so much. Thoughts ?

#691 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:11

He means the tyres, i think


:up:


#692 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:14

Coming to think of it, Schumacher has been the most vocal against Pirelli this year. However with 14 races done this year, the team which has handled the tyres the worst seem to Mercedes. I wonder if he has got it wrong. What i mean is that yes the tyres are the same for everyone, have a narrow working window, have been a lottery etc, but eventually the Mercedes team has been the worst (at least that what i think) to deal with them. In another car he might have a slight softer stance against them, critical but not so much. Thoughts ?


Schumacher understands that racing nowadays is less to do with being on the limit and more with driving within a particular delta.

The cars that are easier on the tyres are able to lower that delta time. The Mercedes, despite supposed so much work done to understand the tyres, is still chewing up tyres.

I think, and this is my opinion only, that MS would still have that criticism at another team because he wants to push the limits of an F1 car, and no one can do that presently, without killing the tyre after a couple of laps.

Many drivers have expressed this idea. MS came under attack because he articulated his belief.

I agree with him because I wanted to:

1) See what he could do on the limit

2) See what ALL the driver could do on the ragged edge

If he was leading the WDC, I am sure he would play nicer though....

#693 Mr2s

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:17

Hardly surprising they irritate him. He owes 3 titles to being supplied a superior tyre to Bridgestone's own partners.

Alonso struggled on the 2007 Bridgestones, promised he would win when he could adjust his style and duly did.

#694 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:17

Aren't F1 drivers supposed to be driving on the limits? Thats what Michael is fighting for. Unfortunately the corporate folks of F1 don't want anyone voicing their opinions against Pirelli so he has to play nice in this new, 99% Money and 1% Sport, Formula 1.

Edited by Sof1, 03 October 2012 - 15:18.


#695 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:37

Hardly surprising they irritate him. He owes 3 titles to being supplied a superior tyre to Bridgestone's own partners.

Alonso struggled on the 2007 Bridgestones, promised he would win when he could adjust his style and duly did.


No, he won 3 titles on merit :)

#696 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 15:40

Aren't F1 drivers supposed to be driving on the limits? Thats what Michael is fighting for. Unfortunately the corporate folks of F1 don't want anyone voicing their opinions against Pirelli so he has to play nice in this new, 99% Money and 1% Sport, Formula 1.


They should be, but are now being instructed to keep laps times in a certain range.

Whatever happened to simply "We need you to go fast!"

We are being robbed on seeing drivers in their prime going balls out.

Anyways,

Back to MS. I want to see if he still can bang out lap after lap on the limit.

#697 penta1998

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:37

Isn't it that the next years tyres will have a wider operating range allowing drivers to push ? I hope he is still around if that is the case.

Edited by penta1998, 03 October 2012 - 16:50.


#698 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:54

Isn't it that the next years tyres will have a wider operating range allowing drivers to push ? I hope he is still around if that is the case.


It is not that Pirelli is incapable, it is that they have made conscious decisions to put these characteristics in the tyres.

Their defense is that the FIA gave them the mandate to do so...

So, I am not sure what Pirelli will do in the future.

MS has adapted. His quali and race pace are both good.

Mercedes unfortunately did not..... Most of their updates were duds in appears....

LH is gonna have a wonderful time next year, with the same design team penning the 2013 car....

I could be wrong though...

#699 Massa_f1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 17:59

So several places are now saying Schumacher will retire and take managerial / advisory role in 2013 for Mercedes.

You have got to be kidding me. it is Ferrari all over again. Even worse, because who the hell at Mercedes will even care what Michael has to advise about they barely do now as it is.

If he really wants to do that role again then at least go back to Ferrari and do it.

You can see whats going to happen. He will be sat on the pit wall looking bored, and to make matters even worse If Mercedes turn up with a good car he will have to watch them win.

Big mistake taking a job with Mercedes if true thats all i can say.

Edited by Massa_f1, 03 October 2012 - 18:27.


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#700 Pits

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:13

So several places are now sayig Schumacher will retire and take managerial / advisory role in 2013 for Mercedes.

You have got to be kidding me. it is Ferrari all over again. Even worse, because who the hell as Mercedes will even care what Michael has to advise about they barely do now as it is.

If he really wants to do that role again then at least go back to Ferrari and do it.

You can see whats going to happen. He will be sat on the pit wall looking bored, and to make matters even worse If Mercedes turn up with a good car he will have to watch them win.

Big mistake taking a job with Mercedes if true thats all i can say.


I've seen some tweets about this, but not from anybody creditable really.
Do you have other sources?