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Michael Schumacher - Part III


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#701 Massa_f1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:19

I've seen some tweets about this, but not from anybody creditable really.
Do you have other sources?



No just this one f1 Journalist IrvineF1 on twitter seems awful sure of himself.

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#702 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:33

No just this one f1 Journalist IrvineF1 on twitter seems awful sure of himself.

He has like 2 and a half followers!

#703 jals99

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 18:51

No just this one f1 Journalist IrvineF1 on twitter seems awful sure of himself.

He was the first one to broke Petrov to Caterham story in December 2011, an hour later Brundle told it also. Jordan Irvine is reliable guy :)

Edited by jals99, 03 October 2012 - 18:52.


#704 race addicted

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:02

Oh please no, no Schumacher in a "managerial role" at AMG Mercedes! Him and Ferrari trying to force his knowledge on Räikkönen was a great success, wasn't it? I hope Mercedes sees this too. Why so afraid to just let him go? Why do they have to invent a position for him? I think Hamilton will take to his advice as "well" as Räikkönen did!
...then again, maybe he wont have much to do with the drivers directly at all, but I don't see what capacity he's supposed to fill, or who would be in need of his advice, and why?

#705 Sakae

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:18

Oh please no, no Schumacher in a "managerial role" at AMG Mercedes! Him and Ferrari trying to force his knowledge on Räikkönen was a great success, wasn't it? I hope Mercedes sees this too. Why so afraid to just let him go? Why do they have to invent a position for him? I think Hamilton will take to his advice as "well" as Räikkönen did!
...then again, maybe he wont have much to do with the drivers directly at all, but I don't see what capacity he's supposed to fill, or who would be in need of his advice, and why?

What was it that Schumacher forced upon KR? Do you actually know how consultancy works (just curious)?

#706 race addicted

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:25

What was it that Schumacher forced upon KR? Do you actually know how consultancy works (just curious)?


Absolutely, I do.

Didn't you get the article where Schumacher said something along the lines of "Massa being easier to work with, as he asked for his advice more".
Schumacher was kept at Ferrari for the drivers to play ball with. Räikkönen clearly didn't need that, he's not interested and he, as most of us, has his pride.
Can you imagine Schumacher offering his advice to Rosberg and Hamilton??

But as I said, maybe he's not at all meant to be there in a capacity working for the drivers.

#707 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:27

I would take retirement over working for an outfit that did not want be to drive for them.

Mercedes would want to cash in on his name.

To that, I would say F!@K YOU Mercedes :p

Last thing that I want to see at the moment is the SLS AMG BLACK Schumacher Edition.....

#708 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:30

A small clip from Top Gear, before Michael's return to F1, where Michael says that without a proper car, you cannot prove anything no matter how good you are.

Clip

I think this absolutely applies to Mercedes cars '10, '11, '12.

#709 Longtimefan

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:33

Michael needs to get away from Merc ASAP.

Personally I'd love to see him driving a Sauber, its a decent car thats not a Tyre eater and I think the team would enjoy him being there.

Driving or not, he needs to get away from Merc. They've treated him shabbily and I really hope he doesn't do anything for them next season.

#710 Sof1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:38

If Schumacher, this weekend in Suzuka, pulls off one of his signature races and gets a podium finish despite his Grid penalty, all hell will break loose and I think he will be signed at Ferrari.

I think thats what he is banking on, some success in the coming races to strengthen his negotiating position with prospect teams.

#711 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:45

Black gold is what usually people call Oil (Crude oil). I don't know what he is hinting at. Maybe oil sponsors? Just a stab in the dark.

I agree Black Gold is usually Oil, so perhaps it's an oblique reference to the various Middle Eastern countries popping up and taking the F1 circus to places which are a little barren & not "that" interested in the sport itself.

You can include Bahrain in that, which of course opens a whole other can of worms.

#712 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:47

I agree Black Gold is usually Oil, so perhaps it's an oblique reference to the various Middle Eastern countries popping up and taking the F1 circus to places which are a little barren & not "that" interested in the sport itself.

You can include Bahrain in that, which of course opens a whole other can of worms.


No, he meant Pirelli.


#713 Longtimefan

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:56

If Schumacher, this weekend in Suzuka, pulls off one of his signature races and gets a podium finish despite his Grid penalty, all hell will break loose and I think he will be signed at Ferrari.

I think thats what he is banking on, some success in the coming races to strengthen his negotiating position with prospect teams.


as much as I love that, I think there is little to no chance.
After taking his 10 place (unfair imo) penalty, he'll be a long way back.. 18th or so?

Probably loss of front wing on lap 1, couple that with Merc giving him an even worse car than usual. his chances are slim to none. :(


#714 Mauseri

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:10

Absolutely, I do.

Didn't you get the article where Schumacher said something along the lines of "Massa being easier to work with, as he asked for his advice more".
Schumacher was kept at Ferrari for the drivers to play ball with. Räikkönen clearly didn't need that, he's not interested and he, as most of us, has his pride.
Can you imagine Schumacher offering his advice to Rosberg and Hamilton??

But as I said, maybe he's not at all meant to be there in a capacity working for the drivers.

I can see Schumacher working with Nico to stop Hamilton becoming a Mercedes superstar...

#715 schubacca

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:42

I can see Schumacher working with Nico to stop Hamilton becoming a Mercedes superstar...


Does not make sense....

MS wants to win for himself.

He has no vendetta against LH to the point that he would torpedo the Brit in order for NR to be successful.

#716 aditya-now

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:49

Here's a thought.

As long as Schumachers transgressions can't be talked about on their own, without bringing Senna's name in, Schumacher is always, if sub-consciously, regarded a level below.

Senna didn't need a role model to do what he did, good or bad. I say, especially to Schumachers fans, give him a chance to live on his own legacy, it's impressive enough without having a Senna asterix beneath certain events in his career history.


The point is that Michael himself conceded that Ayrton was his role model, his hero already back in his karting days (check the long interview with Michael from 2008, posted in this thread a few pages ago)

Also, Michael broke into tears in Monza 2000, after winning his 41st GP, when he was asked in the PC how he felt about equalling Ayrton's record.

So quite obviously Schumacher took some lessons out of Senna's book - of course, the claim of the Schumi fans that Senna did the "dirty" things first and that Michael was only following his example (who coerced Schumi??) is no excuse and utterly ridiculous.

Moreover, "quality" and quantity of Schumacher's special incidents definitely outnumber Senna's transgressions.

#717 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:56

Moreover, "quality" and quantity of Schumacher's special incidents definitely outnumber Senna's transgressions.


Quantity? Twice as long in F1 so does that count in his favor?
Quality? Didn't realize anyone was supposed to be rating them!

Simply, if the FIA had handed out some of the punishments to Senna/Prost that MS has received just in the last 3 seasons, then I doubt the vast majority of MS transgressions would have occurred.

And it's not as if winning the title by driving your rival off the road was limited to F1, the British F3 championship was won by Rupert Keegan doing exactly that.

Not really interested in debating point for point, because it's mostly past history, but I'm going to be bold and say that I can find almost every MS failing was similar to a Senna "error", and I bet I'm far from alone on that.

#718 MSCDesign

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:58

Unfortunately tweets from IrvineF1 are true. Michael will stay at merc as non-driver role.

#719 Schumacher7

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:58

The point is that Michael himself conceded that Ayrton was his role model, his hero already back in his karting days (check the long interview with Michael from 2008, posted in this thread a few pages ago)

Also, Michael broke into tears in Monza 2000, after winning his 41st GP, when he was asked in the PC how he felt about equalling Ayrton's record.

So quite obviously Schumacher took some lessons out of Senna's book - of course, the claim of the Schumi fans that Senna did the "dirty" things first and that Michael was only following his example (who coerced Schumi??) is no excuse and utterly ridiculous.

Moreover, "quality" and quantity of Schumacher's special incidents definitely outnumber Senna's transgressions.

Did anybody make that claim? I must have missed it, what people were doing was complaining that Senna is glorified and declared a hard racer, the greatest of all time by many, yet MS is branded a cheat using much the same tactics, people aren't trying to excuse him or say he was merely following Senna's lead but question the double standards.

And do they outnumber Senna's "transgressions"? Jerez 1997, Monaco 2006 and Hungary 2010, three instances in over 300 races. :well:

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#720 aditya-now

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:02

I have resisted commenting on michael missing out on a seat with mercedes (call it dumping if you like)


What do you expect? Michael was given three seasons to prove himself. He did not deliver, so a better driver with more future perspective was recruited. You can't call that "dumping". In the old days, three or maximum four years with a team were the norm (e.g. Lauda's four years with Ferrari), a more regular length of staying with a team was two seasons (Scheckter, Hunt, Pironi, Reutemann etc.)

So Schumi got a generous serving of time with Mercedes, he just could not pull it off.



Yes, F1 died a little on that day. For me as well.


That's quite melodramatic. It's not as if Michael has died.

Things were quite different when Jim Clark, Jochen Rindt and Ayrton Senna actually died. On these days a part of F1 did die.

#721 Schumacher7

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:05

Unfortunately tweets from IrvineF1 are true. Michael will stay at merc as non-driver role.

When declaring big news like that it's quite nice to give a source...? :|

#722 aditya-now

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:16

I find this idea baffling. I used to laugh at the idea, along with many others, that MS could win in a Minardi (an old bit), because no driver could transcend utter crap machinery.

Now, when MS has failed to win in a crap Mercedes, we are contending that he has not delivered.

Did we expect him to win in the car that Merc has produced this past 3 years?

Could LH have won in a Merc?

I seriously do not think so.


Well, obviously Nico Rosberg won in a Merc, something which Michael failed to do.

What is actually baffling is to compare Mercedes to Minardi. :drunk:

Edited by aditya-now, 03 October 2012 - 22:17.


#723 schumimercamg

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:24

Unfortunately tweets from IrvineF1 are true. Michael will stay at merc as non-driver role.



Please God no.

#724 schumimercamg

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:25

Well, obviously Nico Rosberg won in a Merc, something which Michael failed to do.

What is actually baffling is to compare Mercedes to Minardi. :drunk:



Yes and in the one race where that was possible his wheel fell off.

The second race where he could have won was Monaco. He was the quickest that weekend by far.

Edited by schumimercamg, 03 October 2012 - 22:25.


#725 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:25

Well, obviously Nico Rosberg won in a Merc, something which Michael failed to do.

What is actually baffling is to compare Mercedes to Minardi. :drunk:


:up:


How anybody can conclude that Schu's comeback has been anything other than a total disappointment is beyond me. And to blame MGP entirely for his failure is to abandon reason.




#726 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:34

Weird comment, fair enough if that's how he calls the tires but I don't think there's anything obvious about it when left without an explanation.


Maybe he meant african slaves or opium poppy ;) No seriously, just to confirm what others have said, the German "schwarzes gold" as well as the English "black gold" can refer to basically anything that is dark and economically valuable, and on German F1 TV and AMuS is quite frequently used for the tyres.

#727 MSCDesign

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:36

When declaring big news like that it's quite nice to give a source...? :|


I'm from Merc AMG F1 Fans...There's no source, but Jordan Irvine on twitter tweeted about it. I know who he is. And I can't tell you why I know this.

#728 aditya-now

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:43

I agree Black Gold is usually Oil, so perhaps it's an oblique reference to the various Middle Eastern countries popping up and taking the F1 circus to places which are a little barren & not "that" interested in the sport itself.

You can include Bahrain in that, which of course opens a whole other can of worms.


That "Black Gold" thing is a weak excuse of Michael for not delivering this year. How come the other drivers are doing much better in the "black gold" Pirellis and just go on with their business instead of complaining?

Previously, Michael did not need such excuses.



As an aside, it is interesting to see MightyMoose avoiding the point that Michael really means when he mentions "black gold"...

Edited by aditya-now, 03 October 2012 - 22:44.


#729 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:51

except that he is delivering this year so your whole point is just a rant

#730 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:52

:up:


How anybody can conclude that Schu's comeback has been anything other than a total disappointment is beyond me. And to blame MGP entirely for his failure is to abandon reason.

do you remember where ms was on the race nico won and what happened?
maybe you can refresh that for us...

#731 1Devil1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 22:53

Well, obviously Nico Rosberg won in a Merc, something which Michael failed to do.

What is actually baffling is to compare Mercedes to Minardi. :drunk:


again and again and again. :rolleyes: moderators said we should be aware of that this is not a Schumacher Fan thread. I think that is a good rule. But why do we need provocations like that from time to time from your side? Sometimes your post are quit good even though I can't agree with your argumentation. The two times Michael had a chance to win his car failed. So how on earth did Schumacher fail? Mercedes never gave him a car to win a race. As you know reliability is a key element for winning a race.

Rosberg had this winning car under his arse and used his chance. Bravo for that! But don't compare the incomparable, please!

#732 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:09

Rosberg had this winning car under his arse and used his chance. Bravo for that! But don't compare the incomparable, please!


If you can't compare teammates driving the same car, what constitutes a fair comparison in your world?


#733 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:11

do you remember where ms was on the race nico won and what happened?
maybe you can refresh that for us...



Not gonna. But do you honestly think Schu's performance over the last three seasons is worthy of continuation?


except that he is delivering this year so your whole point is just a rant


What exactly has he delivered this year???

Edited by zeph, 03 October 2012 - 23:12.


#734 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:15

Not gonna. But do you honestly think Schu's performance over the last three seasons is worthy of continuation?

stick to the topic you opened and answer that question. it makes your point silly, doesn't it?



What exactly has he delivered this year???

can't answer you this one. if you can't see it I guess nothing can show it to you

#735 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:16

If you can't compare teammates driving the same car, what constitutes a fair comparison in your world?

well on the chance the car was a winning one the team didn't exactly deliver on both cars. again, care to refresh us on what happened then?

#736 1Devil1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:17

If you can't compare teammates driving the same car, what constitutes a fair comparison in your world?


You can't compare the two drivers if one of the cars failed to finish the race. What is so hard to understand? Would you blame Lewis for not winning the race in SPA while Button took a magnificent victory. So referring to the "same" car in the two occasions Mercedes was capable of winning is plain stupid. In all other races Mercedes was midfield and Schumacher showed he can be quicker as his team mate... are you here to discuss or for provocation?

#737 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:24

Okay, guys. Whatever. I think the big picture is that Schu has not lived up to the expectations. If he has lived up to yours, then I consider him blessed with such devoted fans.

I think the facts and stats speak for themselves, but I respect your right to disregard them. I am RTB, please continue the gnashing of teeth.



#738 1Devil1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:35

Okay, guys. Whatever. I think the big picture is that Schu has not lived up to the expectations. If he has lived up to yours, then I consider him blessed with such devoted fans.

I think the facts and stats speak for themselves, but I respect your right to disregard them. I am RTB, please continue the gnashing of teeth.


It completely fine if you are not pleased with his performance over the three years. A lot of fans also didn't like his performance. But you raised the point he failed to win a race in a car which was capable of winning (because Rosberg did). This point is stupid even for MS critics. So don't be surprised if other posters point at you

#739 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:40

It completely fine if you are not pleased with his performance over the three years. A lot of fans also didn't like his performance. But you raised the point he failed to win a race in a car which was capable of winning (because Rosberg did). This point is stupid even for MS critics. So don't be surprised if other posters point at you


I think you confuse me with someone else. I didn't talk about him not winning a race. Feel free to browse my posts and quote if I did.

I say his over-all performance might have been passable for a rookie, for a 7-time champ it is subpar. I think Raikkonen's return just confirms this.

But never mind. I don't care either way, I just find some of the explanations/excuses in this thread insane.


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#740 1Devil1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:46

I think you confuse me with someone else. I didn't talk about him not winning a race. Feel free to browse my posts and quote if I did.

I say his over-all performance might have been passable for a rookie, for a 7-time champ it is subpar. I think Raikkonen's return just confirms this.

But never mind. I don't care either way, I just find some of the explanations/excuses in this thread insane.


Nope. I didn't confuse you. Somebody else raised that point and I commented on that. You responded on that like you share the same view.

I wrote:

"Rosberg had this winning car under his arse and used his chance. Bravo for that! But don't compare the incomparable, please!

You wrote
"If you can't compare teammates driving the same car, what constitutes a fair comparison in your world?"

#741 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:52

As an aside, it is interesting to see MightyMoose avoiding the point that Michael really means when he mentions "black gold"...


As an aside? No, as a sarcastic dig from you I'll address it. You want a prompt reply send me a PM, otherwise I'll go about my life and not spend 3 hours waiting for a nonsensical quip from you! I didn't think there was much to answer, others made the same assumption I did after all.

At the time of my post relating to "Black Gold" I believed it was down to "oil", others state that it's an oblique reference to Pirelli. They have more info than me, so I'll quite happily accept that.

Given your ability to "troll & run" it's ridiculous for you to make any statement relating to me and "avoiding the point" is something you really shouldn't be tossing out onto this forum. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones & all that.

As for his opinion on the tires, I suspect he's far from alone in this regard. Has he learned how to "handle" them? Results and performances this year suggest to me that he has. It's just not the way he'd like to have to treat them. Don't think that's too hard for motor racing fans to grasp the concept of is it?

#742 Tardis40

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:55

It's disappointing that Michael didn't have a competitive package to work with. He is the only reason I'm still watching. I might tune in to the odd race after he's finished. Belgium, for sure, and Monza. I'm disgusted with the rules changes that have been implemented. Took all the pleasure out of it for me.


#743 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:17

I'm from Merc AMG F1 Fans...There's no source, but Jordan Irvine on twitter tweeted about it. I know who he is. And I can't tell you why I know this.


If this really turns out to be true, I'll be very angry with MSC despite being a big fan for 2 decades. This team is a total disgrace which 90% of the time provided him a a slow car. In the very few(rare to be more precise) ocasions where the car was decently quick, it broke. At least Schumacher's one.

Let's see how Nico will perfom against the hyped Hamilton next year because this year MSC was usually faster and still have way less points due mainly to Mercedes

Schumacher should cut all connections with these people and if he can't get a drive for next year, then cut all connections to F1 because he's a racing driver and not a f$#@ing manager or whatever

#744 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:30

Senna was 0.1s-0.15s faster than Schumacher at their respective primes.
but, Schumacher was a better tactician and planner.

Does it matter though? Do all these numbers matter?


really? where have you genious took this numbers from? your imagination/guess? :rolleyes:

In my view, Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93, considering the cars each had, and I'll never buy this Senna being faster drivel.

But have fun believing in that

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 October 2012 - 01:33.


#745 Sakae

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:31

Absolutely, I do.

Didn't you get the article where Schumacher said something along the lines of "Massa being easier to work with, as he asked for his advice more".
Schumacher was kept at Ferrari for the drivers to play ball with. Räikkönen clearly didn't need that, he's not interested and he, as most of us, has his pride.
Can you imagine Schumacher offering his advice to Rosberg and Hamilton??

But as I said, maybe he's not at all meant to be there in a capacity working for the drivers.

I have not heard from Schumacher about his plans at all, and I am not so sure that anyone else has either, thus this subject is non-issue, at least for now, isn't it? At Ferrari he did what they asked him to do, just as similar conditions would exist at Mercedes, should he decide to continue there. Both business entities possess strong culture of separation management from employees, and to lament over his perceived role at Ferrari should be actually addressed more appropriately with people at the helm. Besides, he wasn't there for too long once he has retired from active racing.

#746 Sakae

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:09

How anybody can conclude that Schu's comeback has been anything other than a total disappointment is beyond me. And to blame MGP entirely for his failure is to abandon reason.

Disappointment? Yes of course, to his fans, most likely to him as well and undoubtedly all for great pleasure to his detractors. Reasons, well we really haven't abandoned, but we haven't also disregarded reality as some of his critics have. Let me quote you someone:

Dr. Zetsche | for Bild

Zetsche, though, says Schumacher's struggles have been mostly down to the car.

"We have not been able to provide both drivers (Schumacher and Rosberg) in the past three years with a car that was able to win the majority of races," Zetsche told German daily Bild.

"With the engine we were competitive, but not with the car. And it would be completely wrong to reproach either Nico Rosberg or Michael Schumacher."


I concurr.



#747 aliasj

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:29

really? where have you genious took this numbers from? your imagination/guess? :rolleyes:

In my view, Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93, considering the cars each had, and I'll never buy this Senna being faster drivel.

But have fun believing in that


0.1s is not a lot of time/speed difference. Senna was 1.5s faster than Prost at Monaco, and 0.6s on average. I'm a Schumacher fan btw, just saying all this so that Senna fans can shut-up.

#748 dplayerx

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:00

If this really turns out to be true, I'll be very angry with MSC despite being a big fan for 2 decades. This team is a total disgrace which 90% of the time provided him a a slow car. In the very few(rare to be more precise) ocasions where the car was decently quick, it broke. At least Schumacher's one.

Let's see how Nico will perfom against the hyped Hamilton next year because this year MSC was usually faster and still have way less points due mainly to Mercedes

Schumacher should cut all connections with these people and if he can't get a drive for next year, then cut all connections to F1 because he's a racing driver and not a f$#@ing manager or whatever


:up:

Exactly what I was thinking (he's a driver and not a f****** manager). Also, what's the point in staying connected with a history of failure, with people, who let you down and booted you out ? And how does that make sense for Mercedes ? If anything, that's just their strategy to please the currently outraged people (so they think) and to sideline him at the same time. In a few years, they can silently dispose of him a second time, or he'll be gone by himself, when he will have realized a second time, that this is not what he wanted.

Retiring as a Sauber driver would be approximately a million times more dignified than staying around and working in that pathetic loser camp called Mercedes, regardless of what people think who say he should get on with real life, because what the sh1t is real life if not being happy and doing what you like ?

Edited by dplayerx, 04 October 2012 - 07:03.


#749 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:17

really? where have you genious took this numbers from? your imagination/guess? :rolleyes:

In my view, Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93, considering the cars each had, and I'll never buy this Senna being faster drivel.

But have fun believing in that


Guess you barked at the wrong tree, see aliasj' reply. :D

Besides, it seems to be you who needs to believe in stuff, rather than reyling on facts. Disregarding the fallacy of comparing drivers in different cars for a second, the qualifying record between AS and MS in 1993 is 8:8, so MS wasn't even in front 'in most qualifyings', which is sort of a prerequisite to declare "spanking", wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, if you must, feel free to keep believeing.

#750 MSCDesign

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:44

Micheal will probably announce his advisor role at merc 2013 this weekend at Japan.