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Michael Schumacher - Part III


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#751 Mandzipop

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:13

To discuss his retirement please go to This Thread



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#752 Mandzipop

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:02

A number of posts have been deleted due to going off topic. Please keep on topic as it is about Michael Schumacher not about an article discussing Alonso.

#753 aditya-now

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:16

Any thoughts on how Schumi will do in Suzuka?

The Merc engine is strong, and the soft/hard tyres should make a late charge possible.

My take: Schumi starting on softs, then going for hard/hard with a late charge. A fifth place might be the optimum he reaches, more realistically a seventh (like Spa - the characteristics of Suzuka are similar).

Anyway, after all that fall out in the last days it would be nice to have a few good race results. Although I wished that Michael could still score that elusive GP win (when he had done so many before, 91 wins, which sometimes seemed to fall into his lap), now even one GP seems to be too much for the asking.

I gather Suzuka and Interlagos are the best chances for good results for Michael, with Texas hard to guess - traditionally Michael did always very well in the USA.

#754 jjpm

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:17

really? where have you genious took this numbers from? your imagination/guess? :rolleyes:

In my view, Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93, considering the cars each had, and I'll never buy this Senna being faster drivel.

But have fun believing in that



Spanking you said?

DNF meaning :
m: = material
o: = other (accident, collision, spin, etc)

1991
1.bel
qp1 SEN 1'47''811
qp7 SCH 1'51''212 3.401
rp1 SEN 44 1h 27m 17.669s ( 209.883 km/h )
rab SCH 0 Clutch

SEN q=1 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0- r=0 dnf= o:0 m:1

2.ita
qp1 SEN 1'21''114 257.415
qp7 SCH 1'22''471 1.357
rp2 SEN 53 1h 18m 10.581s ( +16.262s )
rp5 SCH 53 1h 18m 28.782s ( +34.463s )

SEN q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0- r=0 dnf= o:0 m:1

3.por
qp3 SEN 1'13''444 0.443
qp10 SCH 1'15''578 2.577
rp2 SEN 71 1h 36m 03.245s ( +20.941s )
rp6 SCH 71 1h 36m 58.886s ( +1m 16.582s )

SEN q=3 - r=3 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0- r=0 dnf= o:0 m:1

4.esp
qp3 SEN 1'19''064 0.313
qp5 SCH 1'19''733 0.982
rp5 SEN 65 1h 39m 43.943s ( +1m 02.402s )
rp6 SCH 65 1h 40m 01.009s ( +1m 19.468s )

SEN q=4 - r=4 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0- r=0 dnf= o:0 m:1

5.jap
qp2 SEN 1'34''898 0.198
qp9 SCH 1'38''363 3.663
rp2 SEN 53 1h 32m 11.039s ( +00.344s )
rab SCH 34 Engine

SEN q=5 - r=5 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=0 dnf= o:0 m:2

6.aus
qp1 SEN 1'14''041
qp6 SCH 1'15''508 1.467
rp1 SEN 14 24'34''899 ( 129.170 km/h )
rab SCH 5 Collision

SEN q=6 - r=6 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=0 dnf= o:1 m:2

1991 : Qualifications : Senna 9 à 0 - Races : Senna 6 à 0
DNF others : Schumacher 1 to 0 - material : Schumacher 2 to 0



1992
1.s-a
qp2 SEN 1'16''227 0.741
qp6 SCH 1'17''635 2.149
rp3 SEN 72 1h 37m 19.995s ( +34.675s )
rp4 SCH 72 1h 37m 33.183s ( +47.863s )

SEN q=1 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=0 dnf= o:0 m:0

2.mex
qp3 SEN 1'17''902 2.199
qp5 SCH 1'18''541 2.838
rp3 SCH 69 1h 32m 15.016s ( +21.429s )
rab SEN 11 Transmission

SEN q=2 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:1 -- MSC q=0 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:0

3.bré
qp3 SEN 1'17''902 2.199
qp5 SCH 1'18''541 2.838
rp3 SCH 70 4 - 1 lap down
rab SEN 17 Electrics

SEN q=3 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:2 -- MSC q=0 - r=2 dnf= o:0 m:0

4.esp
qp2 SCH 1'21''195 1.005
qp3 SEN 1'21''209 1.019
rp2 SCH 65 1h 56m 34.588s ( +23.914s )
rp9 SEN 62 Spin

SEN q=3 - r=1 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=1 - r=3 dnf= o:0 m:0

5.sma
qp3 SEN 1'23''086 1.244
qp5 SCH 1'23''701 1.859
rp3 SEN 60 1h 29m 29.911s ( +48.984s )
rab SCH 20 Spin

SEN q=4 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=1 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:0

6.mon
qp3 SEN 1'20''608 1.113
qp6 SCH 1'21''831 2.336
rp1 SEN 78 1h 50m 59.372s
rp4 SCH 78 1h 51m 38.666s ( +39.294s )

SEN q=5 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=1 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:0

7.can
qp1 SEN 1'19''775
qp5 SCH 1'20''456 0.681
rp2 SCH 69 1h 37m 20.700s ( +12.401s )
rab SEN 37 Electrics

SEN q=6 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:3 -- MSC q=1 - r=4 dnf= o:1 m:0

8.fra
qp3 SEN 1'15''199 1.335
qp5 SCH 1'15''569 1.705
rab SCH 17 Collision
rab SEN 0 Collision

SEN q=7 - r=3 dnf= o:2 m:3 -- MSC q=1 - r=4 dnf= o:2 m:0

9.g-b
qp3 SEN 1'21''706 2.741
qp4 SCH 1'22''066 3.101
rp4 SCH 59 1h 26m 36.258s ( +53.267s )*
rab SEN 52 Gearbox

SEN q=8 - r=3 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=5 dnf= o:2 m:0

10.ger
qp3 SEN 1'39''106 1.146
qp6 SCH 1'41''132 3.172
rp2 SEN 45 1h 18m 26.532s ( +04.500s )
rp3 SCH 45 1h 18m 56.494s ( +34.462s )

SEN q=9 - r=4 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=5 dnf= o:2 m:0

11.hon
qp3 SEN 1'16''267 0.791
qp4 SCH 1'16''524 1.048
rp1 SEN 77 1h 46m 19.216s ( 172.424 km/h )
rab SCH 63 Spin

SEN q=10 - r=5 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=5 dnf= o:3 m:0

12.bel
qp2 SEN 1'52''743 2.198
qp3 SCH 1'53''221 2.676
rp1 SCH 44 1h 36m 10.721s
rp5 SEN 44 1h 37m 19.090s ( +1m 08.369s )

SEN q=11 - r=5 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=6 dnf= o:3 m:0

13.ita
qp2 SEN 1'22''822 0.601
qp6 SCH 1'23''629 1.408
rp1 SEN 53 1h 18m 15.349s
rp3 SCH 53 1h 18m 39.722s ( +24.373s )

SEN q=12 - r=6 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=6 dnf= o:3 m:0

14.por
qp3 SEN 1'14''258 1.217
qp5 SCH 1'15''356 2.315
rp3 SEN 70 - 1 lap down
rp7 SCH 69 - 2 laps down

SEN q=13 - r=7 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=1 - r=6 dnf= o:3 m:0

15.jap
qp3 SEN 1'38''375 1.015
qp5 SCH 1'40''922 3.562
rab SCH 13 Gearbox
rab SEN 2 Engine

SEN q=14 - r=7 dnf= o:2 m:5 -- MSC q=1 - r=6 dnf= o:3 m:1

16.aus
qp2 SEN 1'14''202 0.470
qp5 SCH 1'15''210 1.478
rp2 SCH 81 1h 46m 55.527s ( +00.741s )
rab SEN 18 Collision

SEN q=15 - r=7 dnf= o:3 m:5 -- MSC q=1 - r=7 dnf= o:3 m:1

1992 : Qualifications : Senna 15 to 1 - Races : Senna & Schumacher tied 7 to 7
DNF others : tied 3 to 3 - material : Senna 5 to 1


1993
1.s-a
qp2 SEN 1'15''784 0.088
qp3 SCH 1'17''261 1.565
rp2 SEN 72 1h 40m 04.906s ( +1m 19.824s )
rab SCH 39 Accident

SEN q=1 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=0 dnf= o:1 m:0

2.bré
qp3 SEN 1'17''697 1.831
qp4 SCH 1'17''821 1.955
rp1 SEN 71 1h 51m 15.485s
rp3 SCH 71 1h 52m 00.921s ( +45.436s )

SEN q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:0 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=0 dnf= o:1 m:0

3.eur
qp3 SCH 1'12''008 1.550
qp4 SEN 1'12''107 1.649
rp1 SEN 76 1h 50m 46.570s
rab SCH 22 Accident

SEN q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:0 -- MSC q=1 r=1 dnf= o:1 m:0

4.sma
qp3 SCH 1'23''919 1.849
qp4 SEN 1'24''007 1.937
rp2 SCH 61 1h 33m 52.823s ( +32.410s )
rp8 SEN 42 Hydrolics

SEN q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:1 -- MSC q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:0

5.esp
qp3 SEN 1'19''722 1.913
qp4 SCH 1'20''520 2.711
rp2 SEN 65 1h 32m 44.558s ( +16.873s )
rp3 SCH 65 1h 32m 54.810s ( +27.125s )

SEN q=3 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:1 -- MSC q=2 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:0

6.mon
qp2 SCH 1'21''190 0.633
qp3 SEN 1'21''552 0.995
rp1 SEN 78 1h 52m 10.947s ( 138.837 km/h )
rab SCH 32 Suspension

SEN q=3 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:1 -- MSC q=3 - r=2 dnf= o:1 m:1

7.can
qp3 SCH 1'20''808 1.821
qp8 SEN 1'21''706 2.719
rp2 SCH 69 1h 36m 56.349s ( +14.527s )
rp18 SEN 62 Alternator

SEN q=3 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:1

8.fra
qp5 SEN 1'16''264 1.882
qp7 SCH 1'16''720 2.338
rp3 SCH 72 1h 38m 56.450s ( +21.209s )
rp4 SEN 72 1h 39m 07.646s ( +32.405s )

SEN q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=4 - r=4 dnf= o:1 m:1

9.g-b
qp3 SCH 1'20''401 1.395
qp4 SEN 1'21''986 2.980
rp2 SCH 59 1h 25m 45.849s ( +07.660s )
rp5 SEN 58 Out of fuel

SEN q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=5 - r=5 dnf= o:1 m:1

10.ger
qp3 SCH 1'39''580 0.832
qp4 SEN 1'39''616 0.868
rp2 SCH 45 1h 18m 54.549s ( +13.664s )
rp4 SEN 45 1h 19m 49.114s ( +1m 08.229s )

SEN q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:2 -- MSC q=6 - r=6 dnf= o:1 m:1

11.hun
qp3 SCH 1'15''228 0.597
qp4 SEN 1'16''451 1.820
rab SCH 26 Oil pump
rab SEN 17 Throttle

SEN q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:3 -- MSC q=7 - r=7 dnf= o:1 m:1

12.bel
qp3 SCH 1'49''075 1.504
qp5 SEN 1'49''934 2.363
rp2 SCH 44 1h 24m 35.792s ( +03.668s )
rp4 SEN 44 1h 26m 11.887s ( +1m 39.763s)

SEN q=4 - r=3 dnf= o:1 m:3 -- MSC q=8 - r=8 dnf= o:1 m:1

13.ita
qp4 SEN 1'22''633 1.454
qp5 SCH 1'22''910 1.731
rab SCH 21 Engine
rab SEN 8 Collision

SEN q=5 - r=3 dnf= o:2 m:3 -- MSC q=8 r=8 dnf= o:1 m:2

14.por
qp4 SEN 1'12''491 0.997
qp6 SCH 1'13''403 1.909
rp1 SCH 71 1h 32m 46.309s
rab SEN 19 Engine

SEN q=6 - r=3 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=8 - r=9 dnf= o:1 m:2

15.jap
qp2 SEN 1'37''284 0.130
qp4 SCH 1'37''530 0.376
rp1 SEN 53 1h 40m 27.912s
rab SCH 10 Collision

SEN q=7 - r=4 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=8 - r=9 dnf= o:2 m:2

16.aus
qp1 SEN 1'13''371
qp4 SCH 1'14''098 0.727
rp1 SEN 79 1h 43m 27.476s
rab SCH 19 Engine

SEN q=8 - r=5 dnf= o:2 m:4 -- MSC q=8 r=9 dnf= o:2 m:3

1993 : Qualifications Senna & Schumacher tied 8 à 8 - Races Schumacher 9 to 7
DNF accidents : tied 2 to 2 - matériel : Senna 4 to 3


1994
1.bra
qp1 SEN 1'15''962
qp2 SCH 1'16''290 0.328
rp1 SCH 71 1h 35m 38.759s
rab SEN 55 Spin

SEN q=1 - r=0 dnf= o:1 m:0 -- MSC q=0 - r=1 dnf= o:0 m:0

2.pac
qp1 SEN 1'10''218
qp2 SCH 1'10''440 0.222
rp1 SCH 83 1h 46m 01.693s 10
rab SEN 0 Collision

SEN q=2 - r=0 dnf= o:2 m:0 -- MSC q=0 r=2 dnf= o:0 m:0

3.sma
qp1 SEN 1'21''548
qp2 SCH 1'21''885 0.337

Edited by jjpm, 04 October 2012 - 09:24.


#755 aditya-now

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:29

Michael is the best driver of this century

Interesting quote - which century is he talking about?

If the first century of 2000, then that's a long stretch. At the moment probably yes, but with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton still going it's daring to say so.

On the other hand, Michael has won 5 WDCs in this century....only 2 WDCs in the last century.

#756 Longtimefan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:32

Totally devastated :(

I was so hoping he'd go to Sauber. :(

F1 is so much duller without him, tbh the only reason I'll be watching in 2013 is to cheer LOUDLY when a Merc DNF's.
I have nothing against Nico or Lewis but the way the team have treated Michael is disgusting, I hope they never score another point after this season ends. Totally lost all respect for Ross.


#757 Tarzaan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:25

Totally devastated :(

I was so hoping he'd go to Sauber. :(

F1 is so much duller without him, tbh the only reason I'll be watching in 2013 is to cheer LOUDLY when a Merc DNF's.
I have nothing against Nico or Lewis but the way the team have treated Michael is disgusting, I hope they never score another point after this season ends. Totally lost all respect for Ross.



+1

:| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :|

#758 Tardis40

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:40

And now the detractors will have to find another home!


#759 schubacca

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:46

And now the detractors will have to find another home!


Yep.....

7 WDCs :)

Over 90 wins :)

Fans have a lot of good memories of him

==================================

As much as I love F1, it simply will be a less stressful experience watching the sport again with MS out of the mix.

Refreshing and sad at the same time.

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#760 Massa

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:00

really? where have you genious took this numbers from? your imagination/guess? :rolleyes:

In my view, Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93, considering the cars each had, and I'll never buy this Senna being faster drivel.

But have fun believing in that



What ? I'm big fan of Schumacher, but you talk BS there, sorry i don't want to be rude.

In 92, it's simple, the Benetton was FAR better than the Mclaren.
In 93 it was worse, the Benetton have have a Ford Cosworth engine, but it was a customer engine... While Benetton have an official engine. These two years, the Benetton was a much better car than the Mclaren.

1992 was the start of the end for Mclaren, it's why Senna leave the team.


#761 Tarzaan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:46

What ? I'm big fan of Schumacher, but you talk BS there, sorry i don't want to be rude.

In 92, it's simple, the Benetton was FAR better than the Mclaren.
In 93 it was worse, the Benetton have have a Ford Cosworth engine, but it was a customer engine... While Benetton have an official engine. These two years, the Benetton was a much better car than the Mclaren.


1992 was the start of the end for Mclaren, it's why Senna leave the team.



loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

92:
The Mac has about +80 horse power and electronix stuff like tc, active suspention, semi-auto gear-shift. They can get 5 wins (Senna 3, Berger 2 and a pole)
The Benetton has much less horse power, no TC, no active suspention, no semi-auto gear-shift.

93:
The different between the costumer Ford engine and the factory spec engine was marginal:


Benetton :
Ford HB 3.5
Capacity 3494 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 610 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

McLaren:

Capacity 3493 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 600 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

From Silvertone Mac use the same spec engine than the Benetton, but the first some races of the season Benetton still has no TC or active suspension, but Mac has might be the best car electronis stuffs of the grid (and they spend the most money that year)

#762 Urawa

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 17:27

http://www.bbc.co.uk...at_schumac.html

Even here he has to start touching himself again. Disgusting.


Still quite objective for a Benson´ article :lol:
Whatever...

How do they say? Luck/bad luck evens out over the course of a season? Time to start, NOW.
Let it rain!

#763 kosmic33

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 17:33

http://www.bbc.co.uk...at_schumac.html

Even here he has to start touching himself again. Disgusting.

A well written, well informed article.

#764 Jejking

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:04

A well written, well informed article.

Nah, not really.

#765 schumimercamg

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:16

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/14700235

My king!

#766 Jejking

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:45

C/P please? Uk only :(

Btw: 43 years old, not 42.

#767 schumimercamg

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:49

C/P please? Uk only :(

Btw: 43 years old, not 42.



It's a tribute vid. Brought tears to my eyes.

#768 D.M.N.

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:08

Schumacher was on Britain's Next F1 Star tonight on Sky Sports F1 with teenager Seb Morris, worth a watch for those who haven't seen it as it is not often you see Schumacher outside of the media spotlight.

#769 schumimercamg

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:11

Let's pray for one fully wet race in the last 6.

We will see something magic from him.

#770 cokeb

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:12

It's a tribute vid. Brought tears to my eyes.

Here is SpeedTV's tribute vid from 2006:


#771 Tarzaan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:17

Here is SpeedTV's tribute vid from 2006:



That was a good one. I like Speed coverage much more than ITV...

#772 mkoscevic

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:59

Thank you Michael, once again. :up:

Good luck.

#773 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:09

0.1s is not a lot of time/speed difference. Senna was 1.5s faster than Prost at Monaco, and 0.6s on average. I'm a Schumacher fan btw, just saying all this so that Senna fans can shut-up.


People usually like to state their guesses as facts.

What is the raw speed difference between Lewis and Jenson? Massa and Alonso? Webber and Vettel?

Even drivers are team mates for several seasons, it's difficult to say by how much one faster than the other. Webber was trashed in qualifying last year and this year he was having the upper hand untill a while ago. Sometimes Massa is over a second slower and others only half second. So which is the speed difference between them?

If we can barely guess the speed gap between long time team mates, how can one say driver A was x,xxxs faster than driver B at their respective primes, when they were never even team mates?

That was all my point actually

#774 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:15

Guess you barked at the wrong tree, see aliasj' reply. :D

Besides, it seems to be you who needs to believe in stuff, rather than reyling on facts. Disregarding the fallacy of comparing drivers in different cars for a second, the qualifying record between AS and MS in 1993 is 8:8, so MS wasn't even in front 'in most qualifyings', which is sort of a prerequisite to declare "spanking", wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, if you must, feel free to keep believeing.


you are a Senna fan aren't you? It's not me who believes in everything. I only believe in facts. But 99% of Senna fans I have met are diehard believers of their little passions. Most of them are 100% sure AS was the greatest, fastest and etc driver that ever lived who will ever live.

It's ok, it's just another poor gospel. Most of the Senna's reputation is gospel but still the deludes like to think this is a proven fact.

Gilles Villeneuve is my favourite driver ever but I don't know who was really the fastest or best or more skilled as is the point on my previous post

edit: the spanking I refered to was not about the 8:8 but the gaps the Schumacher imposed to Senna in many of those qualifyings. Something that Senna could only do in the very first GP of that year IIRC.

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 October 2012 - 20:16.


#775 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:22

Spanking you said?

DNF meaning :
m: = material
o: = other (accident, collision, spin, etc)


:lol:

why don't you bring the numbers for Lewis outqualifying Narain? I see no problem in comparing Mclaren with an HRT as you already compared the Mclarens of 91/92 to Jordan and Benetton of those years :cat:

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 October 2012 - 20:41.


#776 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:35

What ? I'm big fan of Schumacher, but you talk BS there, sorry i don't want to be rude.

In 92, it's simple, the Benetton was FAR better than the Mclaren.
In 93 it was worse, the Benetton have have a Ford Cosworth engine, but it was a customer engine... While Benetton have an official engine. These two years, the Benetton was a much better car than the Mclaren.

1992 was the start of the end for Mclaren, it's why Senna leave the team.


I don't thing you were rude, but maybe just completely fool in that. Now I'm the one not wanting to be rude.

I don't know what you meant by "better". Mclaren had poor reliability so in that sense, you could say Benetton was far better. Pace-wise though, it's even ridiculous to compare. Mp4-7 was waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than B192

As for 93, I think it's the 451556184982132498436216 th time I say this on the internet, but here we go again: From Silverstone onwards, the engines were the same.

When someone claims Benetton were much(saying they were faster at all is already something to be proven, nevermind the "much") better, I wonder if 2 decades in the future there will be people claiming that Caterham was faster than Toro Rosso and that Kova and Petrov were bad not to beat Ricciardo and Vergne

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 October 2012 - 20:42.


#777 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:38

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

92:
The Mac has about +80 horse power and electronix stuff like tc, active suspention, semi-auto gear-shift. They can get 5 wins (Senna 3, Berger 2 and a pole)
The Benetton has much less horse power, no TC, no active suspention, no semi-auto gear-shift.

93:
The different between the costumer Ford engine and the factory spec engine was marginal:


Benetton :
Ford HB 3.5
Capacity 3494 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 610 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

McLaren:

Capacity 3493 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 600 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

From Silvertone Mac use the same spec engine than the Benetton, but the first some races of the season Benetton still has no TC or active suspension, but Mac has might be the best car electronis stuffs of the grid (and they spend the most money that year)


Please please don't post the facts. Let's people keep on believing Benetton was a rocketship and Mclaren a dog. The same as HRT being a tremendous fast car and Red Bull being a very slow one :drunk:

#778 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:55

you are a Senna fan aren't you? It's not me who believes in everything. I only believe in facts. But 99% of Senna fans I have met are diehard believers of their little passions. Most of them are 100% sure AS was the greatest, fastest and etc driver that ever lived who will ever live.

It's ok, it's just another poor gospel. Most of the Senna's reputation is gospel but still the deludes like to think this is a proven fact.

Gilles Villeneuve is my favourite driver ever but I don't know who was really the fastest or best or more skilled as is the point on my previous post


It's your right to believe what you will, obviously. Not disputíng that right, nor do I care.

However, if you're such a firm believer in facts, you should try all the more to get them right.

edit: the spanking I refered to was not about the 8:8 but the gaps the Schumacher imposed to Senna in many of those qualifyings. Something that Senna could only do in the very first GP of that year IIRC.


You claimed

... Schumacher simply spanked Senna in most qualifyings of 92/93...


I only gave you the stats for 1993, but if you insist on being shown the whole magnitude of your wrongness, I'm happy to include 1992 where, low and behold, the qualifying record between Senna and Schumacher was 14:2 in favour of Senna. :eek:

So over the two-year period you claimed Senna being "spanked in most qualifyings" by Schumacher, Senna actually qualified better 22 times and only started behind MS 10 times.

Facts and gospel at work here indeed, but unfortunately precisely the other way round as you propagated. :p


#779 TifosiUSA

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:55

I don't thing you were rude, but maybe just completely fool in that. Now I'm the one not wanting to be rude.

I don't know what you meant by "better". Mclaren had poor reliability so in that sense, you could say Benetton was far better. Pace-wise though, it's even ridiculous to compare. Mp4-7 was waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than B192

As for 93, I think it's the 451556184982132498436216 th time I say this on the internet, but here we go again: From Silverstone onwards, the engines were the same.


Also, in 1993, the Benetton didn't get a semi-auto box and traction control/active suspension until the Monaco Grand Prix.

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#780 baddog

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:14

People take some weirdly simplified view of the world, where cars are equal except for the engine (when it suits their myth) Case in point 1993. The Mclaren had a slightly worse engine for some of the year.. but the chassis was a work of art, one of the finest chassis ever to come out of the team. Ask anyone at the team, it was superb, and just perfect for Senna's style. Go see the car, it is beautiful even now. It may also be the most technologically advanced car of its era, beating even the Williams on that front. The Benetton chassis was in no way as good, not even after getting the active upgrades, but especially not before.

Senna was unmatched as a qualifier, I do believe that. Its not about tenths per lap it is about focus on one lap at the exclusion of everything else and he was the best ever at that. that is worth only a place or so on saturday however, and Michael had him over a weekend though, almost every time.

Senna also put in that fabulous performance at Donnington which (well earned) creates a myth that he drove like that all year.

#781 Tarzaan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:18

I only gave you the stats for 1993, but if you insist on being shown the whole magnitude of your wrongness, I'm happy to include 1992 where, low and behold, the qualifying record between Senna and Schumacher was 14:2 in favour of Senna. :eek:

So over the two-year period you claimed Senna being "spanked in most qualifyings" by Schumacher, Senna actually qualified better 22 times and only started behind MS 10 times.

Facts and gospel at work here indeed, but unfortunately precisely the other way round as you propagated. :p


In 93 when both drove a V8 powered car it was 8-8. Other years senna has +4(91,92) or +2(94) cylinders.

another interesting fact:

98 Barcelona was the last race where AS can finish ahead of Michael (when both finish the race), but those Barcelona race was close also...


Senna also put in that fabulous performance at Donnington which (well earned) creates a myth that he drove like that all year.


That wasn't bad, but imho Prost lead that race in half distance, and then force to spend about one minute in the pit in one of his pit stops...

Edited by Tarzaan, 04 October 2012 - 21:20.


#782 MSchumi

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:28

I am by no means a religious person, but I have to believe that if there are higher forces in control of our lives, then in all fairness, Schumacher will get his last hurray. After all the trouble the trouble he's had to go through these past three years, no one could be more worthy of it. :)
Just let it drizzle a little in Japan... or whatever. Anything to give the man a chance. I wouldn't even be less ecstatic about it even it turned out to be a complete fluke victory. Schumacher's had enough bad luck to have good luck for once.

#783 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:32

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

92:
The Mac has about +80 horse power and electronix stuff like tc, active suspention, semi-auto gear-shift. They can get 5 wins (Senna 3, Berger 2 and a pole)
The Benetton has much less horse power, no TC, no active suspention, no semi-auto gear-shift.


Not even a thousand "o" in your lol can mask the mistakes in your post.

I wouldn't rely totally on any of the HP numbers claimed in publications, but for what it's worth, Autocourse has the diffeence between Hondas RA122 and Bennetons Ford HB as... wait for it... 10 HP. That's right, ten. 740 vs. 730. Abit less than 80, hm? :drunk: Not to speak of the fact that the Ford needed about 15 percent less fuel than the Honda over race distance.

The other thing, McLaren did NOT have active suspension in 1992. They tested it briefly and for the first time Friday in Monza, but never raced it.

#784 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:44

People take some weirdly simplified view of the world, where cars are equal except for the engine (when it suits their myth) Case in point 1993. The Mclaren had a slightly worse engine for some of the year.. but the chassis was a work of art, one of the finest chassis ever to come out of the team. Ask anyone at the team, it was superb, and just perfect for Senna's style. Go see the car, it is beautiful even now. It may also be the most technologically advanced car of its era, beating even the Williams on that front.


I agree it was an excellent chassis and a beautiful car. They did, however, have their fair share of teething troubles with the active suspension and other electronic gimmicks on the car. And they had an allmighty mid-season slump in performance, only recovering with upgrades by Monza.

The Benetton chassis was in no way as good, not even after getting the active upgrades, but especially not before.



That's an exaggeration. IMO it was nip and tuck in performance between McLaren and Benetton all year.

Senna was unmatched as a qualifier, I do believe that. Its not about tenths per lap it is about focus on one lap at the exclusion of everything else and he was the best ever at that. that is worth only a place or so on saturday however, and Michael had him over a weekend though, almost every time.


That's even more of an exaggeration. 'Almost every time', during '92 and '93? :lol:

Senna also put in that fabulous performance at Donnington which (well earned) creates a myth that he drove like that all year.


I never heard anyone say that until today.


#785 as65p

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:56

That wasn't bad, but imho Prost lead that race in half distance, and then force to spend about one minute in the pit in one of his pit stops...


Prost only led by half distance again because Senna had been delayed in the pits on his stop (sticky wheel nut). Then on another stop, Prost stalled the car, so his fault. Later he had a slow puncture, but by that time the race was lost already anyway. Overall, Prost made 2 stops more than Senna, his own choice.

Here's Frank Williams words on the matter:

"Alain made a very clever change onto dry tyres, but threw it away with a vastly premature change back to wets and that was the end of the race. ... All tyre changes were initiated and motivated by the driver. Any suggestion that anybody else made those decisions is untrue."




#786 Massa_f1

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 22:12

Just watching Britain's next f1 star on SSF1. Good to see Schumacher on the show giving this boy Seb Morris advice.

#787 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 23:12

I only gave you the stats for 1993, but if you insist on being shown the whole magnitude of your wrongness, I'm happy to include 1992 where, low and behold, the qualifying record between Senna and Schumacher was 14:2 in favour of Senna. :eek:

So over the two-year period you claimed Senna being "spanked in most qualifyings" by Schumacher, Senna actually qualified better 22 times and only started behind MS 10 times.

Facts and gospel at work here indeed, but unfortunately precisely the other way round as you propagated. :p


The fact that Schumacher managed to beat Senna even if in only 2 qualifyings in 92 is already enough of a spanking. If PDLR manages to genuinely outpace Caterhams and Toro Rossos it's already the best qualifying performance ever from a driver. Still, even with that, he would be beaten by everybody in Q2 but the 16/17th would be a spanking in everybody else.

Obviously I used this as an exaggerated example, though. No driver can do that with such HRT


Not even a thousand "o" in your lol can mask the mistakes in your post.

I wouldn't rely totally on any of the HP numbers claimed in publications, but for what it's worth, Autocourse has the diffeence between Hondas RA122 and Bennetons Ford HB as... wait for it... 10 HP. That's right, ten. 740 vs. 730. Abit less than 80, hm? :drunk: Not to speak of the fact that the Ford needed about 15 percent less fuel than the Honda over race distance.

The other thing, McLaren did NOT have active suspension in 1992. They tested it briefly and for the first time Friday in Monza, but never raced it.


the number of "o" he used serves to point out the naivety of people.

But I won't waste my time anymore debating with you after this utter pathetic post. You have 0 knowledge of mechanics.

In all seriousness, it takes A LOT of stupidity or complete lack of knowledge to state such things.

The "publications" have VERY reliable numbers because it's possible to know, from various ways, the power of engines with a quite good precision. Further more, it's ridiculously obvious to anyone with a IQ of 5 and a little bit of knowledge in mechanics that a V12 engine(Mclaren's Honda) will give A LOT more power than a V8(Benetton's Ford) under that same circunstances of rules and technology

But congratulations, I could never thought anybody would believe on such things as "740 vs 730" :rotfl:

PS: I'm not sure of this but I think I already read serious publications that Mclaren tested and USED during GPs active suspension in late 92. But I'm really unsure on this one

Come on, bring more stupid numbers from "autocourse"(what is that, Senna fanboy's publication with 0 mechanics knowledge) or you just made that up?

You really believe in Santa Clauss don't you?

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 October 2012 - 23:28.


#788 BetaVersion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 23:43

Surprise surprise, this is the outcome of a V12 vs a V8

Honda RA122E
(1992)

-Type: 12 cylindres en V à 60°

-Cylindrée: 3 493 cm3

-Puissance: 770 ch à 14 500 tr/min

-Constructeur: McLaren



Ford Cosworth HBA5

(1991-1992)


-Type: 8 cylindres en V à 75°

-Cylindrée: 3 494 cm3

-Puissance: 660 ch à 12 000 tr/min


-Constructeur: Benetton, Fondmetal



Ford Cosworth HBA7

(1992-1993)


-Type: 8 cylindres en V à 75°

-Cylindrée: 3 494 cm3

-Puissance: 680 ch à 13 000 tr/min


-Constructeur: Benetton


Depending on the part of the 92 season, the power difference ranged from 110-90 ch or 108-89 HP, which fits very well to a reasonable person expectation


#789 as65p

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:31

Come on, bring more stupid numbers from "autocourse"(what is that, Senna fanboy's publication with 0 mechanics knowledge) or you just made that up?


:lol: I rest my case with you folks. :wave:



#790 D.M.N.

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:42

Kaltenborn confirmed in the FIA press conference that they had not offered Schumacher a contract for 2013.

#791 Levike

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:14

People take some weirdly simplified view of the world, where cars are equal except for the engine (when it suits their myth) Case in point 1993. The Mclaren had a slightly worse engine for some of the year.. but the chassis was a work of art, one of the finest chassis ever to come out of the team. Ask anyone at the team, it was superb, and just perfect for Senna's style. Go see the car, it is beautiful even now. It may also be the most technologically advanced car of its era, beating even the Williams on that front. The Benetton chassis was in no way as good, not even after getting the active upgrades, but especially not before.

Senna was unmatched as a qualifier, I do believe that. Its not about tenths per lap it is about focus on one lap at the exclusion of everything else and he was the best ever at that. that is worth only a place or so on saturday however, and Michael had him over a weekend though, almost every time.

Senna also put in that fabulous performance at Donnington which (well earned) creates a myth that he drove like that all year.


If you take the whole '93 season you will see that while Donington was really a standout performance, Senna was driving exceptionally well thw whole season, only to let down by unreliability problems all year. The only mistake he made was at monza maybe.
And the last two races were at least as great like Donington.


#792 SparkPlug

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:00

Kaltenborn confirmed in the FIA press conference that they had not offered Schumacher a contract for 2013.

So what were his "options" then ?

Perhaps Kaltenborn says Sauber did not offer a contract, but was there a denial of any interest in him at all ? I think MS did not explore the opportunity further which is why the talks never reached a stage where he could talk about a contract. But that is just me speculating.

#793 as65p

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:01

So what were his "options" then ?

Perhaps Kaltenborn says Sauber did not offer a contract, but was there a denial of any interest in him at all ? I think MS did not explore the opportunity further which is why the talks never reached a stage where he could talk about a contract. But that is just me speculating.


I think the clue is in this bit form a front page article http://plus.autospor...t-time-to-stop/

"But while Schumacher was keen to carry on, it wasn't at the expense of his dignity. Scrambling around to piece together a commercially-driven deal to drive for, say, Williams or Sauber would have smacked of desperation."


Of course he had options. He's still better than half the grid but above all, a massive marketing asset. But like the author above, I say good on him that he didn't explore those possibilities at the expense of his dignity.

#794 george1981

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:04

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

92:
The Mac has about +80 horse power and electronix stuff like tc, active suspention, semi-auto gear-shift. They can get 5 wins (Senna 3, Berger 2 and a pole)
The Benetton has much less horse power, no TC, no active suspention, no semi-auto gear-shift.

93:
The different between the costumer Ford engine and the factory spec engine was marginal:


Benetton :
Ford HB 3.5
Capacity 3494 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 610 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

McLaren:

Capacity 3493 cc
Compression 12.0
Maximum power 600 bhp
Valves 4 per cylinder
Dimensions
Length 595 mm

From Silvertone Mac use the same spec engine than the Benetton, but the first some races of the season Benetton still has no TC or active suspension, but Mac has might be the best car electronis stuffs of the grid (and they spend the most money that year)


From what I've hear the change in engine specification you mention at Silvertone 1993 was a trade, Ford would give McLaren the lastest specification engine if McLaren would allow Benetton to use their traction control system. So from then onwards the engines in the Benetton and the McLaren should have been similar.

#795 aditya-now

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:29

Schumacher crashes again

Crashed in free practice 2 - clearly Michael does not know anymore where his limits are. He is driving this season in the way of Maldonado, Grosjean, di Resta (rare exception today), but they are youngsters - MSC is supposedly one of the best drivers in history.

Jackie Stewart is right in assessing that Michael's retirement is overdue.

I am amazed how many sentimental posts I have been reading in the last days here on the BB - people stating that in 2013 F1 does not interest them anymore, as Michael will not be driving anymore. While it is time for Michael to leave before some harm happens (to him or to others), the most fascinating point is that here we have an blatant example of idolatry, hero worship if you will.

The sport has always been greater than any of its drivers - F1 has survived the demise of Clark and Senna for example - and it can well do without Schumacher. So whoever will be not following the sport anymore is obviously more interested in one person than in the sport. Fascinating.

Edited by aditya-now, 05 October 2012 - 11:30.


#796 schumimercamg

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:39

Schumacher crashes again

Crashed in free practice 2 - clearly Michael does not know anymore where his limits are. He is driving this season in the way of Maldonado, Grosjean, di Resta (rare exception today), but they are youngsters - MSC is supposedly one of the best drivers in history.

Jackie Stewart is right in assessing that Michael's retirement is overdue.

I am amazed how many sentimental posts I have been reading in the last days here on the BB - people stating that in 2013 F1 does not interest them anymore, as Michael will not be driving anymore. While it is time for Michael to leave before some harm happens (to him or to others), the most fascinating point is that here we have an blatant example of idolatry, hero worship if you will.

The sport has always been greater than any of its drivers - F1 has survived the demise of Clark and Senna for example - and it can well do without Schumacher. So whoever will be not following the sport anymore is obviously more interested in one person than in the sport. Fascinating.



Your ignorance is truly baffling.

#797 sharo

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:06

Schumacher crashes again

Crashed in free practice 2 - clearly Michael does not know anymore where his limits are. He is driving this season in the way of Maldonado, Grosjean, di Resta (rare exception today), but they are youngsters - MSC is supposedly one of the best drivers in history.

Jackie Stewart is right in assessing that Michael's retirement is overdue.

I am amazed how many sentimental posts I have been reading in the last days here on the BB - people stating that in 2013 F1 does not interest them anymore, as Michael will not be driving anymore. While it is time for Michael to leave before some harm happens (to him or to others), the most fascinating point is that here we have an blatant example of idolatry, hero worship if you will.

The sport has always been greater than any of its drivers - F1 has survived the demise of Clark and Senna for example - and it can well do without Schumacher. So whoever will be not following the sport anymore is obviously more interested in one person than in the sport. Fascinating.

No, no!

That should read "Aditya strikes again"

#798 ali.unal

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:11

Michael's dream comes true

Michael is a nine-year-old Canadian boy with a lively mind in a body severely crippled body by an incurable muscular disease. He can't walk and is confined to a wheelchair, nor can he speak properly, though his loving family understands him. Yet Michael's handicap is no barrier when it comes to accomodating his main passion in life: F1 racing in general and one driver in particular.

At home in Toronto Michael spends most of his time in a bedroom that is a shrine to his favourite driver. The wall facing the bed is dominated by a hand-painted mural of a life-size car driven by Michael's hero, whose image is also depicted all around the room in photos, posters, banners and other regalia. His parents and younger brother decorated the room for him, but his father, a construction worker, said Michael was the foreman on the job. On Grand Prix Sundays, long before the race begins on television, the family dresses Michael in a sweater and cap in the colours of the driver who means the world to him.

Michael's mother, who works as a secretary, arranges family life around her son's special needs and also tries to brighten his life with special occasions. On one occasion, after saving up for some time, the family was able to afford a journey to the Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal, where the goal was for Michael to meet his hero. Each day, in the morning and evening, they stood patiently outside the entrance to the paddock, with Michael fairly bouncing in his wheelchair, thrilled at the prospect of a meeting that unfortunately did not take place. Though other drivers came and went, the one they were waiting for never appeared and the family went home disappointed.

But his mother, determined to make Michael's dream come true, persevered. She found out his hero used another entrance to the paddock in Montreal. She was also told that famous F1 drivers are besieged with so many requests and their time is so limited that no matter how worthwhile the cause might be, their ability to make individual dreams come true is very limited. Nevertheless, Michael's mother remained convinced that her son was a special case, and that his hero would recognize this when he saw him. And so the family returned to Montreal again, and early on the morning of opening day they were waiting outside the paddock. But so was a jostling, boisterous crowd of celebrity seekers and autograph hunters, few of whom paid any attention to the small family group - the anxious mother and father and two young boys, one of them sitting twisted and contorted in a wheelchair.

Suddenly, the crowd became noisier and someone shouted that a famous driver was arriving on the back of a scooter. The driver jumped off and ran for the paddock turnstiles, followed by his flustered personal assistant who said he was late for a meeting with his engineers and had no time to stop. But he did stop, this famous driver, and he pushed his way through the now silent crowd of on-lookers and went directly to the family with the little boy in the wheelchair.

Michael's parents stood speechless and immobilized, unable to come to grips with the fact that this famous driver had actually singled them out for his individual attention. The driver quickly took charge of the situation. He shook hands with both parents, asked them for a pen to sign his name on their boys' caps and told them to take photos. Then he got down on one knee and put his arm around little Michael in the wheelchair. He hugged him closer and whispered in his ear: "Hi, your Mom and Dad tell me we have the same name. Mine is Michael Schumacher and I am very happy to meet you."

Posted Image



#799 schumimercamg

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:20

He's an absolute legend.

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#800 baggio10

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:29

Let's pray for one fully wet race in the last 6.

We will see something magic from him.


We will see a saftey car followed by red flag.