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Michael Schumacher - Part III


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#1601 Number62

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:37

You're a sad man. First you say Schumacher never apologized for anything. It was proved otherwise. Then you start saying and hammering on how Schumachers apologies to Barrichello weren't good enough, at least for your taste. I think Schumacher should learn HTML and make an extreme makeover of Michael-Schumacher.de with an open apology to anyone who he ever committed a severe, inhuman crime against, for at least two months.


He didn't say that.

It's well known that "i'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology: - http://en.wikipedia....apology_apology



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#1602 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:45

He didn't say that.

It's well known that "i'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology: - http://en.wikipedia....apology_apology


I agree that he did not apologise to Rubens and was more disappointed that Rubens would feel the way that he did about what happened. Not an apology at all, but just a public expression of regret that Rubens was offended the way that he was over the incident. He was correctly penalised for that little stunt.

However, it's so easy to say that Schumacher never apologises and sit back waiting for proof that it isn't true despite the fact that this is a claim that is being made on a career spanning over 23yrs of F1. To that, I can only say, NOT TRUE. As a fan, I notice when he apologises. If you're not a fan, you'll notice when he doesn't and soon enough, feel that he never really does. Additionally, are we referring to public apologies only? Schumacher, in his earlier career was quite closed and not one to express his feelings a lot. The public apologies were indeed far and few between but not at all non-existent.

What can I say? I'm not willing and doubt that I could reasonably find the time to prove my point. We may as well leave it at that.

Edited by ali_M, 01 November 2012 - 13:50.


#1603 Number62

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:56

I agree that he did not apologise to Rubens and was more disappointed that Rubens would feel the way that he did about what happened. Not an apology at all, but just a public expression of regret that Rubens was offended the way that he was over the incident. He was correctly penalised for that little stunt.

However, it's so easy to say that Schumacher never apologises and sit back waiting for proof that it isn't true despite the fact that this is a claim that is being made on a career spanning over 23yrs of F1. To that, I can only say, NOT TRUE. As a fan, I notice when he apologises. If you're not a fan, you'll notice when he doesn't and soon enough, feel that he never really does.

What can I say? I'm not willing and doubt that I could reasonably find the time to prove my point. We may as well leave it at that.


No need on my account. I'm not a fan and I agree with you. I think he's been patently apologetic on occasions and not on others where perhaps he should.


#1604 schubacca

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:18

Man,

I take a break and now we are on the "MS never apologizes" topic....

Some other thought-provoking topics:

MS has a big chin

MS is "sad" (like Ronaldo)

MS never apologized for his fashion sense.....

============================================

MS is human and my experience is that we all do not like to apologize immediately.

Time gives us perspective and maturity that allows future apologies to carry more weight.

How long did it take Senna to apologize for ramming into Prost?

These F1 chaps fight for each position. Acquiescence really is not in a modern day F1 driver's lexicon.

#1605 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:22

The record for most GP's contested, by the way, remains with Rubens Barrichello.

good for him and completely off topic

#1606 LiJu914

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:36

MS never apologized for his fashion sense.....


That, i´ll never forgive him.

#1607 schubacca

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:43

That, i´ll never forgive him.


heheheh,

He is his own man.... I give him that!

He could have easily hired a fashion consultant to dress him...

#1608 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:08

heheheh,

He is his own man.... I give him that!

He could have easily hired a fashion consultant to dress him...


Now why are you assuming that he didn't??? :rotfl:

#1609 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:10

Schumacher did also not apologize to Brawn and the team for all the things he did wrong during the past three years. So I don't know what you are up to, Sakae.
There were many things that have gone wrong, both on the team's side, on Michael's side, and in the design of the car.


I cannot agree or disagree with you, since I am not aware what Schumacher has done that deserves appology, however I do know what Brackely's team has not done, which is, into his third year of Michael's contract, they failed to build a competitive car - the one he signed on in his contract with Ross when he came back. Yes, the same car which Mr. Lauda termed as slow. The same car which displeases Dr. Zetsche. The same car which Mr. Hamilton is writing off for next year in very public manner, while still in McLaren's uniform. The same car which Michael will park on his estate as painful memory what could have been, and never was. That deserves a very public appology to him, so I thought.


#1610 boldhakka

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:36

I cannot agree or disagree with you, since I am not aware what Schumacher has done that deserves appology, however I do know what Brackely's team has not done, which is, into his third year of Michael's contract, they failed to build a competitive car - the one he signed on in his contract with Ross when he came back. Yes, the same car which Mr. Lauda termed as slow. The same car which displeases Dr. Zetsche. The same car which Mr. Hamilton is writing off for next year in very public manner, while still in McLaren's uniform. The same car which Michael will park on his estate as painful memory what could have been, and never was. That deserves a very public appology to him, so I thought.


Who, exactly, should apologize? Ross Brawn? This is the same logic as people calling for Domi's head in the Ferrari thread. Brawn doesn't single-handedly design the car. He hired the best technical people available, so he didn't drop the ball. Why should he apologize?

And the contract wasn't with Ross. It was with Mercedes GP, the Brackley team as you put it. The team Michael was part of. You can use the word "they" as much as you like, but he was part and parcel of the team that built those three cars.

Schumacher doesn't have a devine right to a fast car. He got paid handsomely to compete and with a good team that managed to beat Lotus/Renault to 4th in 2011 even though Lotus/Renault spent more.

Nobody owes him anything.

#1611 kpchelsea

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:43

I have never seen Michael Schumacher as demotivated as this in the last 20 years. Its looking like a terrible and painful end to a glorious career. Its not the way a Formula 1 legend should be leaving this sport. I dont think we'll be seeing much of him around the F1 paddock in the next few years. The whole Mercedes project seems to have sapped him of all his energy and enthusiasm for motorsport in general. On the other hand, I hope he for one will not regret coming back to F1 as they say, its better to have tried and failed than to have not tried at all.

Personally I think he should've kept his options open in 2008 / 2009 itself. In the one off test for Ferrari sometime in late 2007 / 2008, it was clear that he still had the pace to compete at this level. He should've got on the phone immediately and gone seat shopping. Instead he waited till he was 40 till he realized that the racing bug wasnt out of his system. Maybe it was just too late for a new project.

Well maybe he waited too long in terms of rustiness but his final year has been his best year since his comeback, the only thing lacking has been the car.

#1612 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 16:01

Well maybe he waited too long in terms of rustiness but his final year has been his best year since his comeback, the only thing lacking has been the car.

Schumacher has admitted so much that he thought he is stepping into 2009 wining car, and gave himself and the team about one or two years to sort out whatever was missing, but in his last year he certainly was and is below his expectations. I also dare to say that with the same audacious confidence people around here claim that Alonso has a car below his abilities; we can really say the same about Schumacher.

To the other poster - in your culture or your planet from which you are visiting maybe apology is not customary. In my culture it is, because here we aren't talking about some weirdo from Hollywood movies, but one of the greatest drives of all times whose legacy was unnecessarily wounded by empty promise. It's not very difficult to understand that.


#1613 boldhakka

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 16:10

To the other poster - in your culture or your planet from which you are visiting maybe apology is not customary.


Ad hominem.

because here we aren't talking about some weirdo from Hollywood movies,


Strawman.

... wounded by empty promise.


Baseless accusation.

Edited by boldhakka, 01 November 2012 - 16:10.


#1614 schubacca

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 16:40

The problem with saying that things went wrong on all sides is that it places equal weight on all parties.

Yes, MS has made mistakes.

BUT (and I am trying my best to be objective here)

Mercedes GP mistakes are more legion.

We have to ask ourselves this:

If MS were to have driven flawlessly for 3 years, how many 1) races would he have won? 2) WDCs would he have won?

If MS were to have driven like he has for 3 years (mistakes and all) in a Red Bull or McLaren, how many 1) races would he have won? 2) WDCs would he have won?

This is MY conclusion:

Mercedes let MS down, more than MS let Mercedes down.

Ultimately, the Team did not get it done. But to say that MS is equally to blame just does not jive with me.

#1615 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:27

I saw where a public apology was in order for the string of mechanical failures that Michael suffered in the early part of this year and he did receive apologies for it.

OTOH, for the unsuccessful 3 yr period because of a failure to produce a competitive car, I don't see where an apology is in order. I don't see where MGP could have guaranteed Michael, a competitive car. They wanted him to be a part of their journey towards success. They felt that his partnership would make the realisation of success more likely. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it didn't happen.

Brawn, on more than one occasion has already done what I'd expect from him, i.e., to make it publicly clear that Michael has done a lot for the team despite their lack of success, that Michael's contributions to the team will have a lot to do with their success in the near future if realised, and that Michael would be winning if he had the car that allowed him. Brawn has publicly made it clear that the poor results have been down to the car and not his drivers.

IMO, there's no need to apologise for Michael/MGP lack of success based on 'empty promises' and who Michael is. They should apologise to each other then. If they were successful, they'd be loading each other with thanks... Michael would be thanking the team and the team thanking Michael. I don't see why it should be one-sided now that they aren't successful. Michael and MGP win and lose as a team.

#1616 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:48

The problem with saying that things went wrong on all sides is that it places equal weight on all parties.

Yes, MS has made mistakes.

BUT (and I am trying my best to be objective here)

Mercedes GP mistakes are more legion.

We have to ask ourselves this:

If MS were to have driven flawlessly for 3 years, how many 1) races would he have won? 2) WDCs would he have won?

If MS were to have driven like he has for 3 years (mistakes and all) in a Red Bull or McLaren, how many 1) races would he have won? 2) WDCs would he have won?

This is MY conclusion:

Mercedes let MS down, more than MS let Mercedes down.

Ultimately, the Team did not get it done. But to say that MS is equally to blame just does not jive with me.

I can live with that.

#1617 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:54

I saw where a public apology was in order for the string of mechanical failures that Michael suffered in the early part of this year and he did receive apologies for it.

OTOH, for the unsuccessful 3 yr period because of a failure to produce a competitive car, I don't see where an apology is in order. I don't see where MGP could have guaranteed Michael, a competitive car. They wanted him to be a part of their journey towards success. They felt that his partnership would make the realisation of success more likely. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it didn't happen.

Brawn, on more than one occasion has already done what I'd expect from him, i.e., to make it publicly clear that Michael has done a lot for the team despite their lack of success, that Michael's contributions to the team will have a lot to do with their success in the near future if realised, and that Michael would be winning if he had the car that allowed him. Brawn has publicly made it clear that the poor results have been down to the car and not his drivers.

IMO, there's no need to apologise for Michael/MGP lack of success based on 'empty promises' and who Michael is. They should apologise to each other then. If they were successful, they'd be loading each other with thanks... Michael would be thanking the team and the team thanking Michael. I don't see why it should be one-sided now that they aren't successful. Michael and MGP win and lose as a team.

Of course there is difference between assurance (which, I do agree couldn't be written into contract), and painting a rosy picture to sway one's decision to accept uncertain future. Hamilton might very well felt into the same trap as Michael has three years ago, and for Mercedes sake this time they better deliver.

#1618 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:59

Of course there is difference between assurance (which, I do agree couldn't be written into contract), and painting a rosy picture to sway one's decision to accept uncertain future. Hamilton might very well felt into the same trap as Michael has three years ago, and for Mercedes sake this time they better deliver.


Michael is a grown man and highly intelligent. He knew what he was getting into when he joined MGP. I don't know what you mean by 'rosy picture to sway one's decision'. I think that unreasonable under the circumstances. It's not like MGP expected what happened and were deliberately deceitful in their negotiations with Michael about joining. We can all look back and use that retrospectoscope - fine. But we shouldn't be too judgemental when looking through it.

#1619 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:34

Michael is a grown man and highly intelligent. He knew what he was getting into when he joined MGP. I don't know what you mean by 'rosy picture to sway one's decision'. I think that unreasonable under the circumstances. It's not like MGP expected what happened and were deliberately deceitful in their negotiations with Michael about joining. We can all look back and use that retrospectoscope - fine. But we shouldn't be too judgemental when looking through it.

I wouldn't be so sure. I think and suspect that results of last three seasons came as a surprise to more people, than just to Schumacher, and had he known ahead what's awaiting for him, I am very much in doubt he would have come out from retirement. But, as you suggest, that's history now and there is no point dwelling on it, yet the nagging feeling that the team's management overpromised and underdelivered remains, and it is not going away.

Edited by Sakae, 01 November 2012 - 18:35.


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#1620 schubacca

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 20:01

I wouldn't be so sure. I think and suspect that results of last three seasons came as a surprise to more people, than just to Schumacher, and had he known ahead what's awaiting for him, I am very much in doubt he would have come out from retirement. But, as you suggest, that's history now and there is no point dwelling on it, yet the nagging feeling that the team's management overpromised and underdelivered remains, and it is not going away.


I remember Eddie Jordan placing MS as one of the favorites for the WDC before the 2010 season...



#1621 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 20:32

I wouldn't be so sure. I think and suspect that results of last three seasons came as a surprise to more people, than just to Schumacher, and had he known ahead what's awaiting for him, I am very much in doubt he would have come out from retirement. But, as you suggest, that's history now and there is no point dwelling on it, yet the nagging feeling that the team's management overpromised and underdelivered remains, and it is not going away.


There was a lot of hope and promise, yes. After all, the team had just won the constructors and driver's championships. The Brawn cars were thought to have fallen off towards the end of 2009 because of funding to drive car development. With Daimler taking over, the financial part seemed OK. It would be understandable that Michael and Brawn would have expected more than what came over the next three years. The promises made were reasonable and credible. This is why Schumacher bought into it. Now that things haven't gone the way both Michael and MGP hoped, this is simply tough on both sides. There's a lot of sorry guys on both sides within Brackley, I'm quite sure. Why the need for a public display of apology under such circumstances? I can understand that expectation, but I don't agree with the necessity for it at a public level. Anyway, it's not too late for us to yet see it anyway. Time will tell.

Buttons comments are very well taken too. Hamilton simply cannot afford to give them any consideration:

"I think it is first year with a new team, and it is always a little bit tricky," he said. "It is a new experience for Lewis and I am sure he is excited about it, but I really don't know.

"He is as quick as they come but sometimes it is not that easy to win grands prix and to build a team around you and help a team achieve good results."

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes. He'll surely need it. It's kind of like Rossi who joined Ducati feeling that he could guide them to competitiveness. No such thing happened and after three years he and Ducati have failed to make any competitive progress relative to the opposition. This has been despite an engine change from 800-1000cc and Ducati being a works team. This provided fertile ground for Stoner to pick at Rossi. The same may well go for Hamilton and it could well be the case that Rosberg beats him as well. No one is expecting this, but after seeing what happened between him and Button, I'd not at all be surprised if Rosberg manages to fluster him big time.

Anyway, this is about Schumi. :lol:

#1622 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 21:01

There was a lot of hope and promise, yes. After all, the team had just won the constructors and driver's championships. The Brawn cars were thought to have fallen off towards the end of 2009 because of funding to drive car development. With Daimler taking over, the financial part seemed OK. It would be understandable that Michael and Brawn would have expected more than what came over the next three years. The promises made were reasonable and credible. This is why Schumacher bought into it. Now that things haven't gone the way both Michael and MGP hoped, this is simply tough on both sides. There's a lot of sorry guys on both sides within Brackley, I'm quite sure. Why the need for a public display of apology under such circumstances? I can understand that expectation, but I don't agree with the necessity for it at a public level. Anyway, it's not too late for us to yet see it anyway. Time will tell.

Buttons comments are very well taken too. Hamilton simply cannot afford to give them any consideration:

Good luck to Hamilton at Mercedes. He'll surely need it. It's kind of like Rossi who joined Ducati feeling that he could guide them to competitiveness. No such thing happened and after three years he and Ducati have failed to make any competitive progress relative to the opposition. This has been despite an engine change from 800-1000cc and Ducati being a works team. This provided fertile ground for Stoner to pick at Rossi. The same may well go for Hamilton and it could well be the case that Rosberg beats him as well. No one is expecting this, but after seeing what happened between him and Button, I'd not at all be surprised if Rosberg manages to fluster him big time.

Anyway, this is about Schumi. :lol:

Yes, it is about Schumi, the man whose legacy got desecrated in very public way with historical consequences. No appology necessary from Brackley because they are above that? If Zetsche can admit to wrongdoing, so should do the others. I usually don't care about those things, but not in this case, sorry. It was let down, big way.

#1623 ali_M

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 21:27

Yes, it is about Schumi, the man whose legacy got desecrated in very public way with historical consequences. No appology necessary from Brackley because they are above that? If Zetsche can admit to wrongdoing, so should do the others. I usually don't care about those things, but not in this case, sorry. It was let down, big way.


:cool: Understandable.

No apology obligatory from my own POV. It's not that they necessarily feel above it. Perhaps Michael is so involved in the team that it would be unreasonable for him to divorce himself from the results now that they've not delivered together. It's unreasonable IMO to expect such apologies when if they were successful, we'd be so ready to confer on Michael a lot of credit for such success. They'd be expected to be thanking him profusely then, rather than the other way around.

#1624 rallye3

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 22:02

Perhaps some form of apology from the team may come at the end of the season. At least just some sort of explanation as to exactly why the team has been so consistently bad with reliability, developments, tyre usage and strategy. Schumi has been far more willing to own up to his own errors over the last couple of seasons. Mercedes just don't seem to have ( or don't display) the same drive and ambition as some other teams. If something is wrong with Red Bull, it is fixed for the next race. With Mercedes it's all we "hope", we "need to understand" "the pace is not there", "the track does not suit our car". Adrian Newey carries around his red sketchbook of ideas. Mercedes just have a book of excuses.

#1625 Schumacher7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 22:14

Or perhaps the apology to Michael would be exactly that, an apology to MICHAEL, just because things aren't said in public doesn't mean they aren't said.

#1626 exmayol

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:36

Reality check, guys! MSC is a grown up man who knew the risks when joining MGP. He does not need any apologies. They will not change a thing. Move on and let's hope for a better 3 races.

#1627 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:54

Perhaps some form of apology from the team may come at the end of the season. At least just some sort of explanation as to exactly why the team has been so consistently bad with reliability, developments, tyre usage and strategy. Schumi has been far more willing to own up to his own errors over the last couple of seasons. Mercedes just don't seem to have ( or don't display) the same drive and ambition as some other teams. If something is wrong with Red Bull, it is fixed for the next race. With Mercedes it's all we "hope", we "need to understand" "the pace is not there", "the track does not suit our car". Adrian Newey carries around his red sketchbook of ideas. Mercedes just have a book of excuses.


Drive and ambition doesn't always bring success. They need to be properly organised and technically competent to succeed. I'd expect the latter is the problem and not the former or else they wouldn't be in F1.


#1628 ivand911

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:33

Good result for Michael in FP1.

#1629 ali.unal

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 10:36

I think he does better on rear limited circuits, thus making the most use of front tyres into corners.

#1630 boldhakka

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:09

This stuff is hard folks. It's not easy to build a winning car with the budget of an upper-midfield team. 4th to 5th in the WCC is exactly where their budget projects them to be. 2009 was the wrong year to set expectations by. 4th in 2011 should have been celebrated since they managed to beat Enstone with a smaller budget.

Michael knew what he was getting into. He was aware of the drastically reduced personelle in BrawnGP/Merc in 2010 and knew the budget for 2010 as well as projected budgets for 2011 and 2012. He is well known to take a deep interest in all these matters and there is no question that he would have done his due diligence and maintained an interest in these matters through his three years there.

When he signed with Merc he probably bought into the "super team" hype. He probably expected Brawn and probably himself to drag a midfield-budgeted car up to places where it didn't belong. Reality had other plans.

His Mercedes stint has put his legacy into context and clarified it a little. A very large portion of his success as an F1 driver was as a result of being associated with the biggest spenders in Formula 1. Did he deserve to be there? Absolutely. And he still needed to execute on that platform, which he did flawlessly and to much acclaim from within his team. But there's no denying that most of his WDCs were as a result of outspending the rivals. The Mercedes saga put paid to any other reading of this.

#1631 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:35

His Mercedes stint has put his legacy into context and clarified it a little. A very large portion of his success as an F1 driver was as a result of being associated with the biggest spenders in Formula 1. Did he deserve to be there? Absolutely. And he still needed to execute on that platform, which he did flawlessly and to much acclaim from within his team. But there's no denying that most of his WDCs were as a result of outspending the rivals. The Mercedes saga put paid to any other reading of this.


This is the story of all the F1 champs who have won 3 or more championships.

They all deserved to be there and wanted to be there for obvious reasons, i.e., they wouldn't be successful without a competitive car and that would far more likely occur with the teams high on resources than those not. The great driver usually made the difference, i.e., added what extra was needed to bring success, i.e., a very high level of consistent driver performance on and off the track leading to multiple championships.

#1632 spacekid

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:38

I don't understand all this talk of the team apologising to Michael. It isn't as if they have been intentionally poor. This is motor racing - it isn't meant to be easy, and the team as a whole have not succeeded.

Nor do I understand all this talk about who Michael should have apologised to. They are all big boys. To keep coming on to the internet to complain that someone you have never met did or did not say something to someone else you have never met to the standard you expected is pathetic.

Not bad from Michael in FP1 today. Nico tends to do better than Michael on this circuit and I am not expecting much from the race, but we'll see.

#1633 boldhakka

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:40

This is the story of all the F1 champs who have won 3 or more championships.

They all deserved to be there and wanted to be there for obvious reasons, i.e., they wouldn't be successful without a competitive car and that would far more likely occur with the teams high on resources than those not. The great driver usually made the difference, i.e., added what extra was needed to bring success, i.e., a very high level of consistent driver performance on and off the track leading to multiple championships.


Totally agree. But do you agree with the corollary that even the best drivers would not be able to consistently achieve great results in a team with a midfield budget? Because that's what Merc was.

So it's unclear to me why a lot of MS fans expected a top-3 level of performance from a team that didn't even spend more than Lotus in 2011. It tells me that they bought into the MS hype and expected him to consistently drag the 4th or 5th best constructor up to winning levels and are now blaming the Merc team when they realized that MS could not do that.

#1634 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:51

Totally agree. But do you agree with the corollary that even the best drivers would not be able to consistently achieve great results in a team with a midfield budget? Because that's what Merc was.

So it's unclear to me why a lot of MS fans expected a top-3 level of performance from a team that didn't even spend more than Lotus in 2011. It tells me that they bought into the MS hype and expected him to consistently drag the 4th or 5th best constructor up to winning levels and are now blaming the Merc team when they realized that MS could not do that.


Oh, I agree with your first statement and this is why we just don't see these multiple champions achieving their success with midfield budget teams.

With regard to your latter comment, I don't think a lot of fans are aware of the tight budget that MGP works with despite their ownership. Additionally, a few podiums and a couple wins seemed like a reasonable expectation. Not domination and championship wins as he did in the past. IOW's, there's no reason why MGP couldn't have fielded a car as good or even a little better than Sauber. So, I doubt realistic fans would have been expecting RBR/McLaren/Ferrari type performance, but certainly better performance than what MGP offered over the 3 yrs.

#1635 ivand911

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:58

So it's unclear to me why a lot of MS fans expected a top-3 level of performance from a team that didn't even spend more than Lotus in 2011. It tells me that they bought into the MS hype and expected him to consistently drag the 4th or 5th best constructor up to winning levels and are now blaming the Merc team when they realized that MS could not do that.

I am baffled too, maybe because they were 2009 champions? :p With small budget, but this is maybe to obvious. I should look for something else.


#1636 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:06

I am baffled too, maybe because they were 2009 champions? :p With small budget, but this is maybe to obvious. I should look for something else.


I always got the impression from Ross that BrawnGP benefitted from not only Honda's larger budget, but an aggressive investment of all development resources into the 2009 car when the 2008 one seemed to be going nowhere. They struck gold with the double diffuser design and with Button's and Barichello's assistance, managed to collect near maximum constructor's points. By the time the budgetary problems stifled car development, they still had enough momentum and in-hand points advantage to take the championships. Their competitive edge fell off very quickly into the second half of the season. We now realize it was a one-off thing.

Why the complaining now rather than just disappointment? Well.... to each his own, I guess. :smoking:

#1637 boldhakka

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:08

Oh, I agree with your first statement and this is why we just don't see these multiple champions achieving their success with midfield budget teams.

With regard to your latter comment, I don't think a lot of fans are aware of the tight budget that MGP works with despite their ownership. Additionally, a few podiums and a couple wins seemed like a reasonable expectation. Not domination and championship wins as he did in the past. IOW's, there's no reason why MGP couldn't have fielded a car as good or even a little better than Sauber. So, I doubt realistic fans would have been expecting RBR/McLaren/Ferrari type performance, but certainly better performance than what MGP offered over the 3 yrs.


You're probably right. The Mercedes name probably gave the impression that Brackley now had a top 3 budget. That explains some of the irrational and rabid expectations.

Those who expect apologies, however, have an additional twist. They are now facing epic levels of cognitive dissonance when they realized that the master car developer who was going to drag the 4th best car to victory every race couldn't get the job done to their satisfaction. Instead of reseting their expectations and admitting they wrong to expect such things in the first place, they redirected their ire towards the team and now expect an apology. That's just pathetic.

Edited by boldhakka, 02 November 2012 - 13:09.


#1638 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:34

You're probably right. The Mercedes name probably gave the impression that Brackley now had a top 3 budget. That explains some of the irrational and rabid expectations.

Those who expect apologies, however, have an additional twist. They are now facing epic levels of cognitive dissonance when they realized that the master car developer who was going to drag the 4th best car to victory every race couldn't get the job done to their satisfaction. Instead of reseting their expectations and admitting they wrong to expect such things in the first place, they redirected their ire towards the team and now expect an apology. That's just pathetic.


Michael is my age short of 6 months or so and for that reason alone, I feel a kinship to him. Not to mention his more philosophical side of late.... I can certainly see eye to eye with a lot of it. I've seen him develop personally and consider him someone people should seriously observe and learn from. He's complete in that he has great qualities and yet, we see his flaws come out. I can personally identify with that mix and we all struggle with it. As a result, I'm a huge fan of his. However, the apology business from MGP... if it comes fine. If it doesn't, no problem. I'm absolutely sure they've had their internal discussions along that line. It's not all the time that we succeed. It's not all the time that we manage to always tow the line in the heat of fierce competition and make no mistake, this is what he has been all the time... a fierce competitor who never backs down from a challenge. This is what makes the man and his racing career so complete for me. We've seen all facets of his achievements and failures both in results and conduct.

I'm satisfied about how things have panned out, even if it ended with the failure. It's more glamorous when it starts with failure and ends with success, but we can't always have it that way, now can we? :smoking:

#1639 Fildischum

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:56

Michael is my age short of 6 months or so and for that reason alone, I feel a kinship to him. Not to mention his more philosophical side of late.... I can certainly see eye to eye with a lot of it. I've seen him develop personally and consider him someone people should seriously observe and learn from. He's complete in that he has great qualities and yet, we see his flaws come out. I can personally identify with that mix and we all struggle with it. As a result, I'm a huge fan of his. However, the apology business from MGP... if it comes fine. If it doesn't, no problem. I'm absolutely sure they've had their internal discussions along that line. It's not all the time that we succeed. It's not all the time that we manage to always tow the line in the heat of fierce competition and make no mistake, this is what he has been all the time... a fierce competitor who never backs down from a challenge. This is what makes the man and his racing career so complete for me. We've seen all facets of his achievements and failures both in results and conduct.

I'm satisfied about how things have panned out, even if it ended with the failure. It's more glamorous when it starts with failure and ends with success, but we can't always have it that way, now can we? :smoking:


Definitely agreed with everything you said. As a huge ms fan, im disappointed and sad to see him retire like this, but i admire him even more for trying and never backing down despite everything not falling into place, he is a true fighter. As a sportsman and as an individual person, i think he is the best model for me. I think his full career is a celebration and representation of life itself.

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#1640 boldhakka

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:58

Michael is my age short of 6 months or so and for that reason alone, I feel a kinship to him. Not to mention his more philosophical side of late.... I can certainly see eye to eye with a lot of it. I've seen him develop personally and consider him someone people should seriously observe and learn from. He's complete in that he has great qualities and yet, we see his flaws come out. I can personally identify with that mix and we all struggle with it. As a result, I'm a huge fan of his. However, the apology business from MGP... if it comes fine. If it doesn't, no problem. I'm absolutely sure they've had their internal discussions along that line. It's not all the time that we succeed. It's not all the time that we manage to always tow the line in the heat of fierce competition and make no mistake, this is what he has been all the time... a fierce competitor who never backs down from a challenge. This is what makes the man and his racing career so complete for me. We've seen all facets of his achievements and failures both in results and conduct.

I'm satisfied about how things have panned out, even if it ended with the failure. It's more glamorous when it starts with failure and ends with success, but we can't always have it that way, now can we? :smoking:


:up:

#1641 Lelouch

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:00

@ali_M: loved that, nice post!

MS' career imo has a lot in common with Zidane's. Even towards the end of them you could all their assets and their flaws and in 2012 i think we have learnt a lot about MS and how his personality has evolved. 2006 (and especially Monaco and Brazil) was a good summary of his carreer as the 2006 WC and its final was a good summary of what Zidane was all about. I doubt we can have something like that in 2012 for MS because for the first time in his carreer there isn't really anything to fight for imo. Anyway, sorry for going a bit off-topic my point is that the guys who show all their strengths and weaknesses when they compete are the ones i really admire because they look much more human like this and tbh i rate these 2 as the best in their fields of expertise.

#1642 Sakae

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:27

I am baffled too, maybe because they were 2009 champions? :p With small budget, but this is maybe to obvious. I should look for something else.

Ivan, perhaps different question (as discussed in Mercedes's thread) can be ask, namely, has Brackly extracted all what could be done on the budget they have? Of course I do not know that answer, but from external observation it is doubtful. Mercedes needs to see first where lack of funds are holding team back, but right now they are battling not with RBR, but Sauber. It is up to Brawn and Lauda now to show at Stuttgart where more money will close that gap to P1. Throwing money at the problem is not always a solution. It is often however a popular scape goat and lazy solution.

Influx of new engineers also suggests realization that former cuts in human resources was damaging, and recovery phase hasn't really come to full effectivness. 2013 should stabilize that, and in 2014 there's new begginning, but unfortunately too late for Michael.

#1643 ivand911

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:30

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Edited by ivand911, 02 November 2012 - 17:38.


#1644 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:38

Ivan, perhaps different question (as discussed in Mercedes's thread) can be ask, namely, has Brackly extracted all what could be done on the budget they have? Of course I do not know that answer, but from external observation it is doubtful. Mercedes needs to see first where lack of funds are holding team back, but right now they are battling not with RBR, but Sauber. It is up to Brawn and Lauda now to show at Stuttgart where more money will close that gap to P1. Throwing money at the problem is not always a solution. It is often however a popular scape goat and lazy solution.

Influx of new engineers also suggests realization that former cuts in human resources was damaging, and recovery phase hasn't really come to full effectivness. 2013 should stabilize that, and in 2014 there's new begginning, but unfortunately too late for Michael.


The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, isn't it? No team will expect to be consistently at the front in F1 with a midfield budget. Neither can we expect a heavily funded team to always be at the front. Yes, all teams, not only MGP need to audit themselves in this way in a serious manner, especially with the financial situation that all teams are affected by. I doubt that their lack of performance has been solely down to a lack of funds. I'd be surprised if this were so. However, it's not unusual to see funding managing to compensate for inefficiencies.

#1645 Sakae

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 18:34

Budget - Brawn confirmed that every department had to cut resources by certain percentage (in terms of fairness to people). It was not like you stay, you can go, etc. On downside, a few good hands (Brawn's words) had left their posts, and it is only now when they are filing up back those gaps. To what extend I do not know. The staff needs to determine what's missing. Is it an extra hammer, a computer, simulator, or a new wind tunnel? Limitations of existing resources has to be evident, and I am not sure if they really can say what they need (other than obvious, like A. Newey).
One also has to ask what you will do with the extra money, if your fundamentals are wrong. In my mind more resources can get you newer wind tunnel, a better simulator, more analytical hours of upgrades correlated to the racing timeline, more data collect and analyzed during track testing, but – your fundamentals have to be sound, allowing you to build on it.
Michael can beat his brains out, but he is not going to fix aero or similar engineering issues. Lauda will be now the connector who needs to convince the Board that they need to double their budget, because of THIS and THAT. Right now neither Brawn, or Haug managed that convincingly, and who knows what was promised and was not delivered. (Please spare me that Schumacher was supposed to save the day).


#1646 ClubmanGT

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:41

It is more likely that he will be the fall guy. It's not like these guys have to work with him anymore.

#1647 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:42

I always got the impression from Ross that BrawnGP benefitted from not only Honda's larger budget, but an aggressive investment of all development resources into the 2009 car when the 2008 one seemed to be going nowhere. They struck gold with the double diffuser design and with Button's and Barichello's assistance, managed to collect near maximum constructor's points. By the time the budgetary problems stifled car development, they still had enough momentum and in-hand points advantage to take the championships. Their competitive edge fell off very quickly into the second half of the season. We now realize it was a one-off thing.

Why the complaining now rather than just disappointment? Well.... to each his own, I guess. :smoking:



Indeed. If you put lipstick on a pig...it is still a pig isn't it.?

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#1648 ali_M

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:03

Thanks for the pics Ivand. Really appreciate the photos now that we're not seeing much of them with him since his retirement announcement and midfield showings.

#1649 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:47

@ali_M: loved that, nice post!

MS' career imo has a lot in common with Zidane's. Even towards the end of them you could all their assets and their flaws and in 2012 i think we have learnt a lot about MS and how his personality has evolved. 2006 (and especially Monaco and Brazil) was a good summary of his carreer as the 2006 WC and its final was a good summary of what Zidane was all about. I doubt we can have something like that in 2012 for MS because for the first time in his carreer there isn't really anything to fight for imo. Anyway, sorry for going a bit off-topic my point is that the guys who show all their strengths and weaknesses when they compete are the ones i really admire because they look much more human like this and tbh i rate these 2 as the best in their fields of expertise.


Never thought of that comparison but that is very true indeed :up:

2 maestros who were prone to moments of madness but also moments of absolute brilliance, it's a shame that MGP did not uphold their end of the deal because they promised they would be challenging when Michael returned maybe not in the 1st year but definitely in the 2nd year, that never materialised and in this current 3rd and last year it's gone from promising to here we go again...

#1650 Juan Kerr

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:27

Michael is a grown man and highly intelligent. He knew what he was getting into when he joined MGP. I don't know what you mean by 'rosy picture to sway one's decision'. I think that unreasonable under the circumstances. It's not like MGP expected what happened and were deliberately deceitful in their negotiations with Michael about joining. We can all look back and use that retrospectoscope - fine. But we shouldn't be too judgemental when looking through it.

You're forgetting something, Schumacher joined the reigning champions of F1, a team that totally dominated the championship. He could be forgiven for getting carried away with what success might be expected of the team especially when he drives for them given his talent. In his mind all he had to do was make sure he was fit, something that comes completely natural to him at any age.
Schumacher never ever expected to have to drive the dogs of cars he has had to performance wise or mechanically wise.