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Michael Schumacher - Part III


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#1751 Slowinfastout

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:33

This might be OT, but considering that he said of tax laws in Switzerland should change, he might relocate. He likes south of US, and I wonder then if one day he will see him on a ranch in Texas.


Are you sure he's not over that thing? maybe I'm wrong but it's been years since he last showed up dressed like the village people cowboy.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 08 November 2012 - 18:34.


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#1752 Sakae

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:46

Who knows what's wrong with him and horses. First the red prancing beast, then his wardrobe, now some thoughts that he wants to do a bit of cowboy thing following in his wife footsteps on the side, and there is no end, unless of those guys gives him a kick into that certain place... :p

Edited by Sakae, 08 November 2012 - 18:48.


#1753 BetaVersion

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:44

Well he won't race in F1, that's what I meant. It's over for us, so it is just 3 weeks/2 races left.


yeah, a shame considering we lose a still good enough driver in F1 but a bless considering he at least get's rid of W04

If MSC join WEC, I won't miss F1 tbh, though

#1754 Jejking

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:45

yeah, a shame considering we lose a still good enough driver in F1 but a bless considering he at least get's rid of W04

If MSC join WEC, I won't miss F1 tbh, though

For your sanity you might want to hope that the W04 turns out to be a bitch, otherwise the pain will be immense.

#1755 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:18

For your sanity you might want to hope that the W04 turns out to be a bitch, otherwise the pain will be immense.


I truly hope it turns out to be a mega mega flop.

#1756 Sakae

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:40

For your sanity you might want to hope that the W04 turns out to be a bitch, otherwise the pain will be immense.

If I may add some clarity on the point you make, not everyone on Schumacher side wishes that, for sake of the brand. It will be a different car, and I hope it will be better, than current one. Odds are however and unfortunately against it.

#1757 exmayol

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:07

I truly hope it turns out to be a mega mega flop.


Even if it is not a mega flop the pathalogical inability to keep development on par with other teams will be there...

#1758 Jejking

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:27

If I may add some clarity on the point you make, not everyone on Schumacher side wishes that, for sake of the brand. It will be a different car, and I hope it will be better, than current one. Odds are however and unfortunately against it.

Let me clarify the same thing, it's not that I'm calling for the designers to f it up and let Hamilton and Rosberg trundle around, but I would be sad if I see Schumacher jumped ship at exactly the wrong time. Same for Rosberg btw, I think he also deserved more for several parts of the last 3 seasons.

Edited by Jejking, 09 November 2012 - 06:28.


#1759 Junky

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:07

I am not convinced that he has decided already what he will do after this is over, other than taking Christmas easy with family, some vacation, and than maybe some quiet talk with Corinna, his wife. I am hoping that he will choose his next path wisely, and certainly wish him well.


Mate, just forget it (unfortunately)...

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#1760 MSCDesign

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:26

yeah, a shame considering we lose a still good enough driver in F1 but a bless considering he at least get's rid of W04

If MSC join WEC, I won't miss F1 tbh, though



W04 will be good. And as Michael said, it's gonna be a part of his signature.

#1761 boldhakka

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:13

W04 will be good. And as Michael said, it's gonna be a part of his signature.


Like the W02 and W03?

#1762 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:27

W04 will be good. And as Michael said, it's gonna be a part of his signature.


The W03 was good too...for 3 races........... at the start of the season. Perhaps the numerology is insight as to how how many races the team can get their act together?


Maybe the W04 will be good for 4 races in 2013? :rotfl:

They should rename it the W019 and maybe it will be a WDC contender? :rotfl:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 11 November 2012 - 11:29.


#1763 Sakae

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:56

W04 will be good. And as Michael said, it's gonna be a part of his signature.

From curiosity, when did he said that? (I am not challenging you on this, but I might have overlooked some interview).

#1764 Sakae

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:28

Like the W02 and W03?

That's so clever.

There is however a different point of view on this subject. While W01 had feedback fingeprints all over from drivers that were replaced, W02 and W03 are developments occurring under trying and complex period. It is time marred by organizational instability under messy implementation of RRA as exhibited initially declining, shortage, realization, and now re-hiring resources, commercial uncertainty when people weren't really focused on the job as otherwise they could have been, and ultimately the fact, that Schumacher's feedback was (for unexplained reasons) not as accepted by smart brains at Brackley, as he was able to communicate at Ferrari. Over time lonely odd comments be it by Ross, and recently by Michael indicated that not all was fine and dandy, and people who do work in similar environments can connect dots to realize there was an unspoken issue in that area.

We should not omitt internal policies or corporate culture (approval process?) combined with limited resources which slowed down developments making team falling back in comparisons to their competitors. Lastly, this year tire-effect downed more cars than just W03, and I am not sure at all what that has to do with Schumacher.

So, if you want to hang anything on him in terms of development of the car, you need to make a better job of it and show in tangible terms when he personally screwed up, whilst whole engineering department at Brackley comes clean smelling like roses.

Edited by Sakae, 11 November 2012 - 12:28.


#1765 MSCDesign

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:48

From curiosity, when did he said that? (I am not challenging you on this, but I might have overlooked some interview).


here:
http://www.f1pulse.c...n-2013-mercedes

I already told few times, 2013 car will be an evolution of 2012 car. And Michael's chief mechanic told mine 2 colleagues (from MercAMGFans group) at AbudDhabi that Michael wants to test the car for 2013, and he will do so in his last race. Many new components, be sure to keep an eye on FP1 in Brazil.


And you guys just keep laughing about W04, I would like to hear your comments next year. I would be somehow happy to see W04 being crap, specially Hamilton's car to be as crap as Michael's was. So that Hamilton would see how hard it was, and that Hamilton gets some critics like Michael did because of the crap car. But I'm afraid that won't happen, and we will see a competitive car and then the headlines : "Hamilton did what Schumacher couldn't!" and stuff like that...

Edited by MSCDesign, 11 November 2012 - 12:49.


#1766 Jejking

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:55

That's what I'm thinking as well.

#1767 Sakae

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:58

here:
http://www.f1pulse.c...n-2013-mercedes

I already told few times, 2013 car will be an evolution of 2012 car. And Michael's chief mechanic told mine 2 colleagues (from MercAMGFans group) at AbudDhabi that Michael wants to test the car for 2013, and he will do so in his last race. Many new components, be sure to keep an eye on FP1 in Brazil.

That's interesting, thank you. Would be nice to know what it is in W03 that they could not correct this year? Lenghth perhaps? In another thread someone mentioned that W04 design is being subject to redesign (I am not sure of all details), nor I would know what has prompt it, but we are three months to track testing for 2013.

#1768 boldhakka

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 13:48

That's so clever.

There is however a different point of view on this subject. While W01 had feedback fingeprints all over from drivers that were replaced, W02 and W03 are developments occurring under trying and complex period. It is time marred by organizational instability under messy implementation of RRA as exhibited initially declining, shortage, realization, and now re-hiring resources, commercial uncertainty when people weren't really focused on the job as otherwise they could have been, and ultimately the fact, that Schumacher's feedback was (for unexplained reasons) not as accepted by smart brains at Brackley, as he was able to communicate at Ferrari. Over time lonely odd comments be it by Ross, and recently by Michael indicated that not all was fine and dandy, and people who do work in similar environments can connect dots to realize there was an unspoken issue in that area.

We should not omitt internal policies or corporate culture (approval process?) combined with limited resources which slowed down developments making team falling back in comparisons to their competitors. Lastly, this year tire-effect downed more cars than just W03, and I am not sure at all what that has to do with Schumacher.

So, if you want to hang anything on him in terms of development of the car, you need to make a better job of it and show in tangible terms when he personally screwed up, whilst whole engineering department at Brackley comes clean smelling like roses.


Well, I'm sure you agree that these problems continued even in 2012 and the W03, as part of your explanation for why the W03 started reasonably and declined as the 2012 season progressed. And since the part of the 2013 W04 that Michael influenced will have been worked on during 2012, those same problems ("organizational instability under messy implementation ..." ) persisted during Michael's feedback on the W04. So obviously Michael must have suffered the same obstacles while giving his feedback for the W04 as he did for the W02 and W03. So why do you think that if the W04 is a good car, Michael should get any credit?

Edited by boldhakka, 11 November 2012 - 13:50.


#1769 Jejking

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:37

Well, I'm sure you agree that these problems continued even in 2012 and the W03, as part of your explanation for why the W03 started reasonably and declined as the 2012 season progressed. And since the part of the 2013 W04 that Michael influenced will have been worked on during 2012, those same problems ("organizational instability under messy implementation ..." ) persisted during Michael's feedback on the W04. So obviously Michael must have suffered the same obstacles while giving his feedback for the W04 as he did for the W02 and W03. So why do you think that if the W04 is a good car, Michael should get any credit?

Because he worked on it. Just like Rosberg. Just like Ross Brawn. Just like the new crew.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the differences between the F430 and 458 Italia.

Edited by Jejking, 11 November 2012 - 15:37.


#1770 boldhakka

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:32

Because he worked on it. Just like Rosberg. Just like Ross Brawn. Just like the new crew.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the differences between the F430 and 458 Italia.


But according to Sakae his feedback wasn't accepted:
" the fact, that Schumacher's feedback was (for unexplained reasons) not as accepted by smart brains at Brackley" (Sakae's words from above)

Guess you don't agree with that then, and you accept that Schumacher must take some blame for the poor performance of the last two cars.

Edited by boldhakka, 11 November 2012 - 16:38.


#1771 Jejking

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 17:10

But according to Sakae his feedback wasn't accepted:
" the fact, that Schumacher's feedback was (for unexplained reasons) not as accepted by smart brains at Brackley" (Sakae's words from above)

Guess you don't agree with that then, and you accept that Schumacher must take some blame for the poor performance of the last two cars.

That's some nice twisting of words there. I can read that also as, because Brackley didn't accept the feedback of Schumacher, they produced a couple of 'shitboxes'.

#1772 Sakae

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 17:37

Twisting of words is an art around here. To reiterate, from couple of odd remarks by both, Ross and Michael on two different occassions, there was possibly some undisclosed issue with engineers, which, as Michael said, was different at Ferrari. Anyone can develop his own theories around it as much as it pleases.

#1773 kpchelsea

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:13

here:
http://www.f1pulse.c...n-2013-mercedes

I already told few times, 2013 car will be an evolution of 2012 car. And Michael's chief mechanic told mine 2 colleagues (from MercAMGFans group) at AbudDhabi that Michael wants to test the car for 2013, and he will do so in his last race. Many new components, be sure to keep an eye on FP1 in Brazil.


And you guys just keep laughing about W04, I would like to hear your comments next year. I would be somehow happy to see W04 being crap, specially Hamilton's car to be as crap as Michael's was. So that Hamilton would see how hard it was, and that Hamilton gets some critics like Michael did because of the crap car. But I'm afraid that won't happen, and we will see a competitive car and then the headlines : "Hamilton did what Schumacher couldn't!" and stuff like that...

I think that most people realise that the Mercedes has been poor since the middle of the season and generally speaking Schumacher has been very competitive

#1774 ali_M

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:16

Twisting of words is an art around here. To reiterate, from couple of odd remarks by both, Ross and Michael on two different occassions, there was possibly some undisclosed issue with engineers, which, as Michael said, was different at Ferrari. Anyone can develop his own theories around it as much as it pleases.


I can't help but see the pattern:
-if the car is great then Michael gets credit and he must have been listened to. After all, listening to Michael is an essential ingredient to the car's success.
-if the car is uncompetitive, then it must be that they aren't listening to him.

It's really odd that he can never be associated with failure. If there's failure in his presence, then it's those around him that he depends on that are doing the failing and he has nothing to do with it.

He's been very successful and couldn't have been so without equally successful individuals around him. We may never know how these equally successful individuals handled his suggestions over his time with Ferrari. Maybe they took on some or all of his suggestions? Maybe his suggestions were useful though not incisive enough for someone not very smart to work with and enhance appropriately etc.

We just don't know and IMO, just as it seems unreasonable to shoulder all the blame on him for what's happened. It seems unreasonable as well to exonerate him fully from the MGP failure over the last 3 yrs.

The same goes for his success. It's unreasonable to give him full credit and it's just as unreasonable to claim he had nothing to do with it.

The truth of his meaningful involvement in both the successful and recently unsuccessful parts of his racing likely lies somewhere down the middle.

Edited by ali_M, 11 November 2012 - 18:17.


#1775 MSCDesign

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:31

I think that most people realise that the Mercedes has been poor since the middle of the season and generally speaking Schumacher has been very competitive


Ask all who aren't MS fans, and they'll say he underperformed. Ask the media, ask british media, ask former drivers , anyone except ms fans.

#1776 BetaVersion

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 19:50

here:
http://www.f1pulse.c...n-2013-mercedes

I already told few times, 2013 car will be an evolution of 2012 car. And Michael's chief mechanic told mine 2 colleagues (from MercAMGFans group) at AbudDhabi that Michael wants to test the car for 2013, and he will do so in his last race. Many new components, be sure to keep an eye on FP1 in Brazil.


And you guys just keep laughing about W04, I would like to hear your comments next year. I would be somehow happy to see W04 being crap, specially Hamilton's car to be as crap as Michael's was. So that Hamilton would see how hard it was, and that Hamilton gets some critics like Michael did because of the crap car. But I'm afraid that won't happen, and we will see a competitive car and then the headlines : "Hamilton did what Schumacher couldn't!" and stuff like that...


Great post, thanks for all the exclusive info from "MercAMGFans group" :up:

and I almost totally agree with the bold part. I still think W04 will be a disapointment but likely not as much as W03 as they invested way more for next year with more qualified personel and etc....

I also fiercely hope for a dog of a car, otherwise people will hype Hamilton and bash Schumi even more if W04 is a better car.

Ask all who aren't MS fans, and they'll say he underperformed. Ask the media, ask british media, ask former drivers , anyone except ms fans.


yeah but that's not because only MSC are biased and everybody else is unbiased. Michael really split people, you either like him very much or dislikes him even more.

The people underating him are the most biased ones, this year.

Edited by BetaVersion, 11 November 2012 - 19:54.


#1777 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:01

It's next to impossible for W04 to be as bad as W03. Sure, it did win a race, which I reckon is a tad better than just having a guaranteed 7th-8th finish slot, but just looking at the points gathered by the team this year, it's a sad sight, with inconsistency and unreliability plaguing the car all year around.

#1778 boldhakka

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:31

I can read that also as, because Brackley didn't accept the feedback of Schumacher, they produced a couple of 'shitboxes'.


And that would be a perfectly valid position as long as the position also includes the statement that if the W04 in 2013 is any good, then Michael shouldn't get any credit for it since according to this position Brackley wasn't accepting Michael's feedback during 2012 (this is the period of the W04 development curve that Michael can influence).

I'm only looking for logical consistency here. There are two logically consistent positions:

1. During 2011 and 2012, Brackley were incompetent, didn't listen to Michael, yada yada yada, and hence Micheal doesn't deserve any blame for the W02 and W03 disasters and also doesn't deserve any credit for the W04 if it's any good.

2. Michael had a real influence on the development of the W02 and W03 disasters and so shares some of (not all of) the blame for their poor performance, and also deserves some credit or blame for the W04 if it performs well or poorly respectively in 2013.

I'm fine with either of the two positions since they are at least logically consistent and only really hinges on how much influence an F1 driver can have on car development, which is a matter of opinion and not one of logical inconstancy.

#1779 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:28

Maybe they were just incapable of interpreting Schumacher's feedback properly.


MS - guys I want a very very pointy front end.

Team - Ok Michael, we're not going to screw your wheels on properly. That will give you the pointy front end you need.

MS - Are you sure?

Team - Trust us, we have been doing this for YEARS.

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#1780 boldhakka

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:13

I already told few times, 2013 car will be an evolution of 2012 car. And Michael's chief mechanic told mine 2 colleagues (from MercAMGFans group) at AbudDhabi that Michael wants to test the car for 2013, and he will do so in his last race. Many new components, be sure to keep an eye on FP1 in Brazil.


Yeah. Mr. Credibility.

Unfortunately tweets from IrvineF1 are true. Michael will stay at merc as non-driver role.


I'm from Merc AMG F1 Fans...There's no source, but Jordan Irvine on twitter tweeted about it. I know who he is. And I can't tell you why I know this.


Micheal will probably announce his advisor role at merc 2013 this weekend at Japan.


:lol:

#1781 AJFIN

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:24

VERY EARLY weather forecast shows light rain for the qualifying and heavy rain for the race at Interlagos. :eek:

#1782 ali_M

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:46

VERY EARLY weather forecast shows light rain for the qualifying and heavy rain for the race at Interlagos. :eek:


That forecast is way too early to be confident about it.

#1783 AJFIN

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:08

It's a small piece of hope for me. I want to be optimistic and cheerful because in a few weeks it's over.

#1784 exmayol

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:11

It's a small piece of hope for me. I want to be optimistic and cheerful because in a few weeks it's over.


That makes two of us. Expect the worst, hope for the best ;)

#1785 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:51

Michael wants to continue with ROC for fun (assuming again with Sebastian).

#1786 weston

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:08

Michael wants to continue with ROC for fun (assuming again with Sebastian).


Some fun with horses and McKenzie: McKenzie with Schumacher

#1787 Jejking

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:04

Posted Image

#1788 Sakae

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:14

Posted Image

Where was that picture taken?

#1789 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:22

Gotta be Germany. They all have the 1990's dress sense going on....:-D

#1790 Raelene

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:34

MSC just bought a horse ranch in texas - www.yallaf1.com

#1791 Sakae

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:40

This might be OT, but considering that he said of tax laws in Switzerland should change, he might relocate. He likes south of US, and I wonder then if one day he will see him on a ranch in Texas.

This is what I wrote only eight days ago...

#1792 ivand911

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:45

Yup, Michael kind of place.
http://motorsport.ne...a-15nov/261.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-15nov/253.jpg
:p

I can see him this weekend with boots like this. Can he "walk" the circuit on a horse?
I just hope he will not start to like Nascar now.

Not a horse unfortunately:
Posted Image

But, for boots I was right? Can't see well on that picture.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by ivand911, 16 November 2012 - 08:03.


#1793 Sakae

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:53

I can't help but see the pattern:
-if the car is great then Michael gets credit and he must have been listened to. After all, listening to Michael is an essential ingredient to the car's success.
-if the car is uncompetitive, then it must be that they aren't listening to him.

It's really odd that he can never be associated with failure. If there's failure in his presence, then it's those around him that he depends on that are doing the failing and he has nothing to do with it.

He's been very successful and couldn't have been so without equally successful individuals around him. We may never know how these equally successful individuals handled his suggestions over his time with Ferrari. Maybe they took on some or all of his suggestions? Maybe his suggestions were useful though not incisive enough for someone not very smart to work with and enhance appropriately etc.

We just don't know and IMO, just as it seems unreasonable to shoulder all the blame on him for what's happened. It seems unreasonable as well to exonerate him fully from the MGP failure over the last 3 yrs.

The same goes for his success. It's unreasonable to give him full credit and it's just as unreasonable to claim he had nothing to do with it.

The truth of his meaningful involvement in both the successful and recently unsuccessful parts of his racing likely lies somewhere down the middle.


Problem is, that fans are having their own ideas how to interpret various relationships. I would challenge anyone to tell me that I have credited solely Michael for success at Ferrari, because that cannot be. I am a corporate man whole my life, and I do know how products, specifically cars, are designed, and built. It is a team sport these days, and driver is one of the essential components in that complex, dynamic environment. Maybe it could have been commuicated better earlier on, but point was made that on at least two different occassions (I am aware off), short remarks by Brawn and Schumacher alike idicated that Michael had a different relationship with Engineers (or say technical staff) at Ferrari, than at Brackley. Based on other indicators how one expresses it is my impression, that it is not as good as it used to be at Maranello. You guys can put any label on it as you want, but that has nothing to do with me then.

Edited by Sakae, 16 November 2012 - 08:39.


#1794 ivand911

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:05

I don't remember Michael walking the track with his engineers for long time. He is usually with his physio.

#1795 sanW10

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:34

WTH!
why is he 1 second down on his team mate???
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104273

well anyways, its just FP1, tomorrow should be interesting.

#1796 ivand911

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:39

WTH!
why is he 1 second down on his team mate???
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104273

well anyways, its just FP1, tomorrow should be interesting.

According to Sky they have different exhausts. And they are testing probably for next year. New rear wing. And I am not sure they have holes to transfer air to the FW anymore.

Edited by ivand911, 16 November 2012 - 17:41.


#1797 BetaVersion

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:44

According to Sky they have different exhausts. And they are testing probably for next year. New rear wing. And I am not sure they have holes to transfer air to the FW anymore.

Well, even all that taken into consideration, MSC still seems all ova da place there

Where was that picture taken?

+1
please Jejking

#1798 sanW10

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:51

all i wish is rain on sunday, the whole race, only that can level the field somewhat.

#1799 F1Champion

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:16

Serious driver input into car development is extremely limited now that there is little track testing. It is all down to engineers and simulation software. That's not to say that the driver input still isn't needed, but because they can't test multiple versions of the same design of front wing for example, it is more down to the engineers and aero team than drivers, who just confirm the results. Bit of a shame but its a sign of the times.

Best example of this is the DRS front wing which aero designers have designed but only works for one function. It must be extremely limiting/frustration for the driver as the design is fixed and they want more front downforce.

Edited by F1Champion, 16 November 2012 - 20:20.


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#1800 ali_M

ali_M
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  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:46

Well, even all that taken into consideration, MSC still seems all ova da place there


Yeah.... No spear car. Age etc.

All amount to a more cautious process of learning the track. I'm not at all surprised that he has been conservative in approach with FP1.