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Ecclestone wants to scrap 2014 engines because they don't sound good


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#51 rhukkas

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 22:58

Um - yes - of course Mercedes will have a giant advantage, because we all know that Ferrari and Renault won't even think about doing nothing about THEIR new engines until January of 2014 - and by then - Bwahahahahah! it will be too LATE!

:lol:

I really don't know where people get this idea that somehow the new engine rule will be such a huge benefit to Mercedes that it will catapult them to competitiveness - and the idea has only gotten more legs since Hamilton's signing. Note to Hamilton and Mercedes fans - Renault and ferrari are working on engines too...


The argument that Mercedes might be in a great position has been going for over a year or two now. It's nothing new at all. nor did I say it was definite that Mercedes would come out on top. I stated they are in a prime position.

And you have to be stupid not to recognise Mercedes are in a good position. Everyone new RedBull could possibly be a in good position in 2009 because of Newey's talent at starting from scratch design. It doesn't always work out, but it's just a numbers game.

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#52 Tommorris747

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:05

It's just something Ecclestone needs to put out there and somehow that will be used to get something else out of the FIA on the Concorde negos..

'Ok, I'll let you have the crap sounding engines with your beloved 'green' tags, but in return I want <insert Bernie demand here>'

A couple of weeks ago Ecclestone was saying: 'the teams should write the regulations'.. now he's saying: 'Todt will change..'

Progress. Massive egos clashing and slowly edging closer to an agreement.

Except for the fact that when he complained about the engine rpm it was increased and when he complained about the electric pitlane power it was ditched. Now he is complaining about the entire engine.

#53 ali.unal

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:08

Um - yes - of course Mercedes will have a giant advantage, because we all know that Ferrari and Renault won't even think about doing nothing about THEIR new engines until January of 2014 - and by then - Bwahahahahah! it will be too LATE!

:lol:

I really don't know where people get this idea that somehow the new engine rule will be such a huge benefit to Mercedes that it will catapult them to competitiveness - and the idea has only gotten more legs since Hamilton's signing. Note to Hamilton and Mercedes fans - Renault and ferrari are working on engines too...

Bruce, Ross Brawn reiterated this a number of times. Most recently here.

"In reality, we will probably have two customers and they will be given parity with the engines that we use at the works team.

"So I don't think teams are going to have a worse engine because they are not a works team.

"But inevitably there is a closer involvement with how the engine is created and developed, so that is a fact."

Of course that doesn't necessarily mean Mercedes or Ferrari will automatically be the teams to beat come 2014, but there is a chance that if new Formula 1 turns out to be an engine-deciding formula, then it will be Mercedes and Ferrari first to have an edge there. For sure, Mercedes is not the only constructor here. Ferrari will have the benefit as well but given their previous ancestors, one could think Mercedes may well have an edge over Ferrari. Not quite certain, but likely.

BTW I am not sure if the nature of Renault-Lotus ties means that Lotus is the de facto factory team of Renault, thus giving them a chance to enjoy that so-called "edge."


Edited by ali.unal, 28 September 2012 - 23:15.


#54 gm914

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:13

RBR are the de-facto Renault team now, they are not considered a 'customer' because they are given the Renault unit for free.
The other teams in that ^ quote are probably referring to Enstone and Williams.

#55 Fastcake

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:14

Except for the fact that when he complained about the engine rpm it was increased and when he complained about the electric pitlane power it was ditched. Now he is complaining about the entire engine.


And again, he was complaining about them when they were being discussed in the first place. If Bernie really wanted them gone he wouldn't be speaking to some naive journalist about getting rid of them. It's too late now to ditch the whole thing after the manufacturers have already invested into them, the most you'll get is another delay.

#56 ali.unal

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:15

RBR are the de-facto Renault team now, they are not considered a 'customer' because they are given the Renault unit for free.
The other teams in that ^ quote are probably referring to Enstone and Williams.

No, quote belongs to Brawn, hence Force India and McLaren. I should have better placed though.

Edited by ali.unal, 28 September 2012 - 23:15.


#57 gm914

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:19

No, quote belongs to Brawn, hence Force India and McLaren. I should have better placed though.

Ah, ok. :up:

#58 Tommorris747

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:20

And again, he was complaining about them when they were being discussed in the first place. If Bernie really wanted them gone he wouldn't be speaking to some naive journalist about getting rid of them. It's too late now to ditch the whole thing after the manufacturers have already invested into them, the most you'll get is another delay.

He spoke to the journalists in the past when he wanted the rpm limit increasing and when he wanted the electric power removing and that is exactly what happened. The journalists got it right on both of those occasions so I see no reason why we should assume that this will NOT happen on this occasion. Can you not remember other regulations in which the manufacturers invested (heavily) but were ditched? I can post a lot of examples here if you would like?

#59 Slowinfastout

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:25

It's possible Ferrari still don't want the new engine and are flexing their muscles about it, that would make Bernie do preemptive strikes about it as well..

At the end of the day it will come down to nobody being made a carpet and completely getting walked over.. somebody must want the engines hard enough for them to happen, otherwise the idea would have been dropped way before stuff would be working on a bench for anyone to hear.

When Ecclestone does the bitch and moan routine there is always an objective, but it's almost never something one should take at face value. He's been like that for so long it's fascinating this notion still hasn't quite sunk in.

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#60 maverick69

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:29

Lol.

It's not the "engine" that matters - they'll all be roughly the same...... It's what you can bolt on to it..........

#61 Tommorris747

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:32

It's possible Ferrari still don't want the new engine and are flexing their muscles about it, that would make Bernie do preemptive strikes about it as well..

At the end of the day it will come down to nobody being made a carpet and completely getting walked over.. somebody must want the engines hard enough for them to happen, otherwise the idea would have been dropped way before stuff would be working on a bench for anyone to hear.

When Ecclestone does the bitch and moan routine there is always an objective, but it's almost never something one should take at face value. He's been like that for so long it's fascinating this notion still hasn't quite sunk in.


The problem is that it isn't ALWAYS like that. As I said, he moaned about other aspects of the engines and they were changed precisely as he asked. He moaned about the Max Mosley budget cap and it was dropped. There are hundreds of other examples and for every one of those there is a gold medal or a track sprinkler comment too. However, I would say that, on balance, there is less evidence of Ecclestone saying that an FIA reg will/will not happen and it being wrong than happens with his other comments (sprinkler, medal, London GP etc). The reason for this is that he often seems to be in a battle with the FIA so could lose reputation if he says X will/will not happen and he ends up being proven wrong. On this occasion I would say there is more chance of Ecclestone being right than wrong.

#62 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:51

As i said in another thread. Engines should stay as they are now. They are fine the grid is every close. Why disadvantage the private teams with this new rule. They wont hang around long if they become 3-7 seconds of the pace like in the olden days.

Because they have already designed them!

It's pretty clear Bernie is losing it for a long time, maybe he says crazy things on purpose.

So if you are an employee of Renault sport you don't mind that 14 months you were there doing a 2am start-up on your one cylinder test engine. And you there at 4am three weeks ago when you fired up your ultra-efficient V6 bad boy for the first time

Nope, just bin that POS. What!?

The engines will sound crap, but the dramatic saving from 180kg of fuel to just 120 kg of fuel to complete the race will be very important for Mercedes and Renault marketing--their version of "EfficientDynamics".

By any description this is a step down from this http://www.youtube.c...feature=related (or this ), but that's what they will have more or less, a few more speeds in the gearbox, they are talking about ~12500 rpm however adding a massive noise from having a huge high-speed turbine though.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 29 September 2012 - 00:16.


#63 pingu666

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:59

the current indycar engines dont sound crap... and there similer to the new f1 engines


#64 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:03

The engines will sound crap, but the dramatic saving from 180kg of fuel to just 120 kg of fuel to complete the race will be very important for Mercedes and Renault marketing--their version of "EfficientDynamics".

Why should I, or any other fan, care about Renault and Mercedes' marketing if F1 sounds worse as a result of it?

#65 stanga

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:09

The problem is that it isn't ALWAYS like that. As I said, he moaned about other aspects of the engines and they were changed precisely as he asked. He moaned about the Max Mosley budget cap and it was dropped. There are hundreds of other examples and for every one of those there is a gold medal or a track sprinkler comment too. However, I would say that, on balance, there is less evidence of Ecclestone saying that an FIA reg will/will not happen and it being wrong than happens with his other comments (sprinkler, medal, London GP etc). The reason for this is that he often seems to be in a battle with the FIA so could lose reputation if he says X will/will not happen and he ends up being proven wrong. On this occasion I would say there is more chance of Ecclestone being right than wrong.


In all those examples quoted, multi-million dollar R & D projects that were initiated on the back of agreements made between respective parties were not at stake...

... the examples you quote are just hypotheticals and ideas doing the rounds.

#66 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:15

In all those examples quoted, multi-million dollar R & D projects that were initiated on the back of agreements made between respective parties were not at stake...

... the examples you quote are just hypotheticals and ideas doing the rounds.

How much do you think was spent on this:
http://www.fia.com/m.../241005-01.html

Not multi-millions?

#67 Tonka

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:20

Mercedes have finally signed up to the new Concorde agreement. The new engines would be part of that agreement. If they were being dropped. we'd know by now.

Anyway, what can Bernie do from inside a German cell ?




#68 HP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:22

Sound of the engine will be OK for me.

IMO V12 engines on cars and V6 engines on motorbikes (and Renault Alpine V6 turbo as well) are some of the best sounding that there are. If the sound is near that of older V6 Benelli motorbikes (but louder) then I am in for a treat. The beauty of those V6 sounds are that they sound smooth as a cat at low revs and on high revs aggressive as a tiger. A Renault Alpine is also something else, particularly when sitting in one of them and the turbo kicks in.



#69 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:25

the current indycar engines dont sound crap... and there similer to the new f1 engines

On their ownright no (and I suppose it is music to the ears of a typical Nissan or Toyota enthusiast).

However when compared directly to a CART V8 turbo, they do sound a bit crap IMO. On low revs they sound a bit strange IMO, not very racy. I suppose that's the thing... without the direct comparison it's not too noticeable and it's also a matter of opinion.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 29 September 2012 - 00:32.


#70 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:27

Mercedes have finally signed up to the new Concorde agreement. The new engines would be part of that agreement. If they were being dropped. we'd know by now.

Anyway, what can Bernie do from inside a German cell ?

The tech regs are not in the Concorde as that governs commercial matters. If they were being dropped then I think Bernie would know about it...

#71 Fastcake

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:34

How much do you think was spent on this:
http://www.fia.com/m.../241005-01.html

Not multi-millions?


Virtually nothing, as that was a concept. No one actually built a car like that. The engines are happening, I'm not sure about Cosworth but everyone else has already started building and testing them. You are putting too much trust into what Bernie says, which is rookie mistake number one in F1.

#72 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:48

Virtually nothing, as that was a concept. No one actually built a car like that. The engines are happening, I'm not sure about Cosworth but everyone else has already started building and testing them. You are putting too much trust into what Bernie says, which is rookie mistake number one in F1.


Wrong. I think you will find that prototypes were built by teams and, in addition, the FIA and AMD spent millions on it. I can find you the links if you want. Moreover, there is no need to debate whether to put stock in what Bernie says about the 2014 engines because two complaints he had about them have already been acted on. This is his third.

I think that you are confusing comments made by Bernie when he says he "wants" something to happen (medals, London GP, and track sprinklers etc) and when hes ays something "will" happen (getting rid of the V4s, getting rid of Mosley's budget cap, getting rid of electric power in the pitlane etc). I think you will find that the most successful people in F1 all have a close ear to Bernie so I would say that the real rookie mistake number one is not listening to him. Anyway, there is no point in debating this - let's see who is right. I am siding with Bernie on this one as his predictions about the 2014 engines have proved to be spot on so far.

#73 jonpollak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 00:49

I say....Good for Bernie.
The old grey mare just ain't what she used to be....
Jp

#74 Bartel

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:30

Hilarious if true. Soundwise they should never have gone under the 3.0 litre V10s, they were magic, The 8's have gotten better since 06 but its pretty static now, whoever said they sound horrible live obviously hasn't seen them live, they sound loud, racey, and angry. I can only imagine what the 10's sounded like...especially the mp4/15 and 16 mclarens....wow.

#75 Afterburner

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:55

Hilarious if true. Soundwise they should never have gone under the 3.0 litre V10s, they were magic, The 8's have gotten better since 06 but its pretty static now, whoever said they sound horrible live obviously hasn't seen them live, they sound loud, racey, and angry. I can only imagine what the 10's sounded like...especially the mp4/15 and 16 mclarens....wow.

As someone who witnessed the V10's live (in a pseudo-echo-chamber, to boot--Indy 2003), I can say with conviction that the sound was almost otherworldly... the start of a race was as if a screaming, rabidly-furious, tornado-like, rapidly-pulsating, earth-shaking, wall-of-sound banshee wail was moving right towards you and then past you at an alarming rate. The downshifts on those cars were something else, too. There seriously aren't enough superlatives to describe how amazing those cars sounded.

#76 packapoo

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:56

Eccles doesn't sound too good either.
Wonder what're the chances of scrapping him?

#77 katmen

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:16

ongoing senile deafness......

#78 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:14

Eccles doesn't sound too good either.
Wonder what're the chances of scrapping him?

The Germans tried that and have so far failed. I wager that we will see the 2014 engines be scrapped before he is put on the scrap heap.

#79 DrProzac

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:17

Simply a work of art..

http://www.youtube.c...;feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=bxTBfU9mIfg

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

:)

But hearing such an engine revving up close cannot be compared to watching videos. Feeling the air in your lungs vibrating in the frequency of the air-fuel mixture explosions :love:

V8s aren't bad either.

Edited by DrProzac, 29 September 2012 - 08:17.


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#80 pinkypants

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:19

The Germans tried that and have so far failed. I wager that we will see the 2014 engines be scrapped before he is put on the scrap heap.


There goes any advantage for 2014....

#81 MadYarpen

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:20

Whe I was for the first (and so far only, sadly) time on a GP, I was seriously shocked how much better engines sound compared to TV.
And

But hearing such an engine revving up close cannot be compared to watching videos. Feeling the air in your lungs vibrating in the frequency of the air-fuel mixture explosions :love:

in V8 was fantastic for me.

If I think about it, i have F1 car sound set as a sms ringtone in my phone, and it shows much better the character of the F1 car sound than TV broadcast

#82 anbeck

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:35

I want to scrap Bernie, because what he says doesn't sound good.

#83 SunnyENTP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:38

Bernie wants many things, like the golf medal table. More proof he is senile. He has no say whatsoever in this.

#84 stanga

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:41

Wrong. I think you will find that prototypes were built by teams and, in addition, the FIA and AMD spent millions on it. I can find you the links if you want. Moreover, there is no need to debate whether to put stock in what Bernie says about the 2014 engines because two complaints he had about them have already been acted on. This is his third.

I think that you are confusing comments made by Bernie when he says he "wants" something to happen (medals, London GP, and track sprinklers etc) and when hes ays something "will" happen (getting rid of the V4s, getting rid of Mosley's budget cap, getting rid of electric power in the pitlane etc). I think you will find that the most successful people in F1 all have a close ear to Bernie so I would say that the real rookie mistake number one is not listening to him. Anyway, there is no point in debating this - let's see who is right. I am siding with Bernie on this one as his predictions about the 2014 engines have proved to be spot on so far.


I can't find a reference as to how much the teams spent on this CDG concept. Did you have manufacturers threatening to leave F1 if it wasn't done?

#85 DrProzac

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:46

Whe I was for the first (and so far only, sadly) time on a GP, I was seriously shocked how much better engines sound compared to TV.
And

in V8 was fantastic for me.

If I think about it, i have F1 car sound set as a sms ringtone in my phone, and it shows much better the character of the F1 car sound than TV broadcast

It can be dangerous for your hearing though. You stand 1,5 m from the car which is very, very loud without hearing protection and instead of increasing the distance you increase your smile! :drunk:

The best recording imho is the BMW V10 in the Williams car I've posted in this thread.

The engine I've heard from so close at high revs (unfortunately the only time at such distance) as the Cosworth V10 in an RBR car. I think their showcar used this engine for a long time after F1 switched to V8s. I think they still use it, which may be the best opportunity to hear a V10, possibly from close distance :)

Edited by DrProzac, 29 September 2012 - 08:55.


#86 dau

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:03

The first time Ecclestone talked about the engines he said that their power needed to be increased and it was. The next time he talked about the new engines he said that they would not run on electric power in the pitlane and then this function was cancelled. Now he is saying that they will not be introduced...


Bernie has been opposing the new engine formula since day one and so far, nothing has come of that. I'm also not aware FIA has changed anything in the regulations related to the electric power in the pit lane. All i can find are quotes from Bernie saying it won't happen, but as of now, it's still in the 2014 Technical Regulations draft available on the FIA site.

It's also too late to scrap the V6s. Even Ferrari has already one of those running on the dyno, so does Merc and i'm sure Renault isn't far behind. Speaking of Renault, they repeatedly said that they are not interested in continuing with the V8s, so i wonder how they would react to (another) delay.

#87 MadYarpen

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:11

It can be dangerous for your hearing though. You stand 1,5 m from the car which is very, very loud without hearing protection and instead of increasing the distance you increase your smile! :drunk:

Without ear plugs I managed only practice sessions and I think some part of qualy. In the race it was start, 5 minutes and than it started to be painful, so had to use ear plugs. But I can happily pay for this kind of pain;)

#88 ayali

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:13

Well if Ferrari and Bernie really don't want 1.6 litre turbo-charged V6 engines then it's probably not gonna happen.
Unless of course they are compensated in other matters
I see no problem in postponing the switch to V6 for 2 or 3 years


#89 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:13

If car manufacturers don't want to be involved in the sport let them go, F1 can survive without them.

#90 wingwalker

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:15

If I think about it, i have F1 car sound set as a sms ringtone in my phone, and it shows much better the character of the F1 car sound than TV broadcast




R-31 with FEE from than video on youtube? Cause that used to be my cellphone ring :lol:

#91 MadYarpen

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:16

R-31 with FEE from than video on youtube? Cause that used to be my cellphone ring :lol:

No, I found some sound clips on the mobile version of official F1 site. It is not great, but works well;)
Here it is: http://mobile.formul...vices/downloads (straight line sound is the best, and I use this one)

Edited by MadYarpen, 29 September 2012 - 09:17.


#92 rijole1

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:22

Whe I was for the first (and so far only, sadly) time on a GP, I was seriously shocked how much better engines sound compared to TV.
And

in V8 was fantastic for me.

If I think about it, i have F1 car sound set as a sms ringtone in my phone, and it shows much better the character of the F1 car sound than TV broadcast


Me too, it was totally fantastic! (first and so far only to me also)

#93 MatsNorway

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:24

They should have gone for a 5cyl they sound so angry and has a bit of the V10 howl in them.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=225s

Now try to imagine something that revs even more than those and that goes tru the gears out of a chicane. :)

Edited by MatsNorway, 29 September 2012 - 09:26.


#94 ArnageWRC

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:51

Bernie should stick to promoting the sport. Leave rules and regs to those in the know.

#95 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:07

It's a bit late to stop it now considering the milions spent on R&D and they are now already manufactured and on the dyno.

If it changes now, I can't believe F1 is mis-managed so much. Everyone has already agreed to the engine change formula.

#96 Fastcake

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:20

Wrong. I think you will find that prototypes were built by teams and, in addition, the FIA and AMD spent millions on it. I can find you the links if you want. Moreover, there is no need to debate whether to put stock in what Bernie says about the 2014 engines because two complaints he had about them have already been acted on. This is his third.

I think that you are confusing comments made by Bernie when he says he "wants" something to happen (medals, London GP, and track sprinklers etc) and when hes ays something "will" happen (getting rid of the V4s, getting rid of Mosley's budget cap, getting rid of electric power in the pitlane etc). I think you will find that the most successful people in F1 all have a close ear to Bernie so I would say that the real rookie mistake number one is not listening to him. Anyway, there is no point in debating this - let's see who is right. I am siding with Bernie on this one as his predictions about the 2014 engines have proved to be spot on so far.


Feel free to provide those links. But that was no different to the ground effects rules Patrick Head was working on last year, a group of engineers working to develop some basic rules but they were never written into the regulations nor did any team start developing them. The engines are happening. The change to V6's were made during the process of shaping the new rules, not because Bernie said something in public, and the electric pit lane is still in the rules as far as I know.

#97 Jamiednm

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:20


I like the sound of the current V8s because they are distinctive - you know you're hearing the sound of an F1 car.

My fear for 2014 is that the sound will be too similar to the drones of a GP2 / Formula R3.5. The aggressive sound of the current F1 engine is class and I'll be sad to see it go.

#98 Jon83

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:27

It seems a bit late now to go back on things but at a time when money is tight, I always thought this seemed pretty mad.

I was never lucky enough to hear a V10 but on the two GPs I have been to, it was the sound which was the most enjoyable aspect of the weekends.

#99 Jon83

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:30

The argument that Mercedes might be in a great position has been going for over a year or two now. It's nothing new at all. nor did I say it was definite that Mercedes would come out on top. I stated they are in a prime position.

And you have to be stupid not to recognise Mercedes are in a good position. Everyone new RedBull could possibly be a in good position in 2009 because of Newey's talent at starting from scratch design. It doesn't always work out, but it's just a numbers game.


So would you say Ferrari and Renault are not in a prime position also?

Edited by Jon83, 29 September 2012 - 10:31.


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#100 rhukkas

rhukkas
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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:35

So would you say Ferrari and Renault are not in a prime position also?


Because Mercedes are a huge company who have one of the most advanced engine development divisions. They have probably got the best engine currently in F1, and traditionally Renault have struggled with power.

There can really only be one 'prime' position. Primus is Latin for first. Mercedes, on paper at least, seem to have everything in place to exploit the regulations better than anyone else. Its not to say they will though.