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Similarities between Hamilton and Villeneuve


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#1 Kucki

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:41

Of course there are a ton of dissimilarities between the two. But some kind of dejavue it might seem for some aswell that Hamilton is doing the backwards career move by moving from the front pack to a midpack . It looks as much a questionable team change as Villeneuves did at the time.

Both drivers came into Formula 1 with a Bang. Both immediately challenged the established world class experienced teammate.

Villeneuve following his star managers adventure and sending his career from having everything going for it to an uphill struggle. Hamilton not starting with a new team, but having a new managment.

Hamilton having the confidence that whatever happens from now on, he will still be able to get back into a cockpit at the front. What if doors dont open later on as quickly or as timely.

What if Rosberg, who knows the car and team well, and they know him and his driving preferences/setup desires well, matches him, or beat him frequently. Then how does he look?

Both have won 1 Championship.

With both career moves, much more money, a bigger contract was beeing a nice bonus to take the step. (plunge?)



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#2 Bruce

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:47

I'll get this reply in just before this is merged into another thread...

#3 george1981

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:51

I think it depends on how the move to Mercedes works out for Hamilton. If his career goes down the toilet then the comparisons will be made; if the move is a success then they won't.
Hamilton has stated that he thinks Mercedes is a good long term move, with them being a factory team and the new engine formula coming up, compared to McLaren who'll be a customer team.
When Villenueve left Williams for BAR I remember him saying it wasn't such a big change because both teams used the same engines, which to me suggested that Villeneuve didn't seem to know how F1 worked.


#4 Moore

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:52

JV went to BAR for his what third season?

LH is going to Mercedes Benz for his seventh season...


JV has 11 wins, 23 podiums and 13 pole positions.

LH has 20 wins, 48 podiums and 24 pole positions.


Yes, there is the similarity that they are going to the same team effectively. But the time in which they did it is completely different. They're a completely different driver as well.

Edited by Moore, 29 September 2012 - 12:53.


#5 pingu666

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:55

engines mattered then and raynard had a good pedagee. Also the last williams he drove wasn't that good either

#6 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:58

BAR basically started from scratch.

It doesn't always look like it, but Hamilton joins the team more than a decade later... it's an established team now.

I'd say it's one hell of a difference.

#7 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:06

JV went to BAR for his what third season?


Fourth. He was at Williams for 96, 97 and 98.

LH is going to Mercedes Benz for his seventh season...


Yup. He has had a fairly long stint at McLaren - the same number of seasons as Prost and Senna, for example.

JV has 11 wins, 23 podiums and 13 pole positions.

LH has 20 wins, 48 podiums and 24 pole positions.


Yes, there is the similarity that they are going to the same team effectively. But the time in which they did it is completely different. They're a completely different driver as well.


The real question is whether those numbers will increase or not. For Jacques, he only scored a few more podiums after leaving Williams IIRC. The other issue is not being able, subsequently, to transfer back to a top team. JV was in demand around 2001, but out of demand a few years later.

Edited by garoidb, 29 September 2012 - 13:07.


#8 britishtrident

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:23

Villeneuve ? Jacques or Giles ?

#9 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:25

Let's say Rosberg does beat Hamilton over the season (after all Button did).

In the final standings, something like:
Rosberg P8 WDC
Hamilton P10 WDC

Surely the British press and fans will lose interest, and he will be forgotten... making all the (diminishing) well of endorsements negligible.

#10 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:28

This thread shows how some drivers aren't easily forgotten.

Call me crazy but I don't think Hamilton will be forgotten anytime soon, regardless of what he does.

#11 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:28

It doesn't always look like it, but Hamilton joins the team more than a decade later... it's an established team now.


It's an established team that is beaten regularly by one or more of Sauber, Force India and Williams (i.e., at the this time these all are privateers, many with pay drivers and rookies)--that is embarrassing.

#12 ZooL

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:30

Villeneuve went to a team of nobodies in F1.

Hamilton is going to a proven F1 winner in Brawn and his superteam of technical directors/chief engineers pinched from other teams. Villeneuve had none of this extras just the $$$

#13 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:31

It's an established team that is beaten regularly by one or more of Sauber, Force India and Williams (i.e., at the this time these all are privateers, many with pay drivers and rookies)--that is embarrassing.


It's still nothing like driving a BAR Supertec and starting out by retiring 11 times in a row.

.....

but look what Villeneuve achieved on the second year of the team's existence: http://en.wikipedia....mula_One_season

Schumacher would DREAM of a season like this in 2012. Same team... lol

Edited by Slowinfastout, 29 September 2012 - 13:42.


#14 Disgrace

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:41

Both came into F1 in the best car.

Both challenged their more experienced team-mates in the first season; both winning four races.

Both lost the title at the last race of their first season.

Both lost said more experienced team-mates in their second season, becoming number one.

Both won the title at the second attempt.

Both sophomore years were less impressive/consistent than their debut years despite winning the championship.

Both had no chance to defend their title due to their teams not adapting to rules changes.

Both fell out with the team that gave them their break, leaving for a team (the same team) with great potential but no results.

The similarities are quite interesting really; but recently they've started to fade. Although BAR is the same Brackley team as Mercedes now is, those in charge of Mercedes have much more F1 pedigree than the initial BAR startup had.

Edited by Disgrace, 29 September 2012 - 13:46.


#15 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:43

Both came into F1 in the best car.

Both challenged their more experienced team-mates in the first season.

Both lost the title at the last race of their first season.

Both lost said more experienced team-mates in their second season, becoming number one.

Both won the title at the second attempt.

Both sophomore years were less impressive/consistent than their debut years despite winning the championship.

Both had no chance to defend their title due to their teams not adapting to rules changes.

Both fell out with the team that gave them their break, leaving for a team (the same team) with great potential but no results.

The similarities are quite interesting really; but recently they've started to fade. Although BAR is the same Brackley team as Mercedes now is, those in charge of Mercedes have much more F1 pedigree than the initial BAR startup had.


Both follicly challenged?


#16 jrg19

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:55

Haven't we done this before?

#17 Les

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 13:59

Hamilton's driving style is 'spin or win' and he reminds me of Gilles, in car at least sadly nothing alike outside with all his moaning and rap-speak.

Oh you mean Jacques? Well Joe Saward likes to compare them, that's something they have in common.

#18 Disgrace

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:01

Both follicly challenged?


Neither taking it with much grace, until Villeneuve this year (perhaps 15 years too late). :lol:

#19 bub

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:07

Main similarity is they both started in a competitive car and did well immediately. Other than that it's mainly people who dislike Hamilton hoping his career goes down hill so they can belittle him imo.

Edited by bub, 29 September 2012 - 14:17.


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#20 The Kanisteri

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:10

Similarities? It's like comparing midday sun and midnight moon, both are round and that's it.

Seriously, our Lewis is bit hot head but extremely fast but he has nothing else common with Jackass Villeneuve than they both have one wolrd drivers championship in their pocket.

JV was a 'cnut' and he still is.

#21 metz

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:11

For starters,
Villeneuve joined as part owner. Big gamble.
Hamilton is an employee. Not so much risk.

#22 #99

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:19

Hmm not just LH

JV left his championship winning team and moved to Brackley, which damaged his reputation in the end, then ended his career driving for Sauber.

MS retired but his next team was at Brackley, where alot of people are saying his reputation has been tarnished, and could possibly end his career at Sauber.

Hmmm  ;)

#23 Alarcon

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:20

Hamilton's driving style is 'spin or win' and he reminds me of Gilles, in car at least sadly nothing alike outside with all his moaning and rap-speak.

Oh you mean Jacques? Well Joe Saward likes to compare them, that's something they have in common.



In terms of driving skill Lewis remind me Nigel Mansell. Fast driver with the overtaking as benchmark and brave. A pure racer.

But far from Jacques Villeneuve, and a thousand miles better than the canadian of course.


Edited by Alarcon, 29 September 2012 - 14:22.


#24 metz

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:30

far from Jacques Villeneuve, and a thousand miles better than the canadian of course.

How do you reach that conclusion?
Since they were there for different number of years and the point system changed, Have a look at average finishing positions at the team they left.


#25 zack1994

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 14:36

Villeneuve went to a team of nobodies in F1.

Hamilton is going to a proven F1 winner in Brawn and his superteam of technical directors/chief engineers pinched from other teams. Villeneuve had none of this extras just the $$$

And of course lewis is much more talented than villeneuve ever was.
So this villeneuve and hamilton thread has no point really.

#26 flavio81

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 15:06

We'll have to listen to Hamilton sing. Thus, comparison can't be done yet.

#27 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 15:11

Similarities? Both are exceptional drivers, and neither are team leaders. JV got stuck on that level, LH has the chance now to be something more than he currently is. It will be interesting to watch.

#28 jerriy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 15:48

MS retired but his next team was at Brackley, where alot of people are saying his reputation has been tarnished, and could possibly end his career at Sauber.

What kind of stupid comment is that?

Are you for real?

What exactly is being tarnished because Schuey as a 43 years old cannot do what 43 years old people aren't capable of doing anyway?

#29 rhukkas

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 15:50

Hamilton's driving style is 'spin or win' and he reminds me of Gilles, in car at least sadly nothing alike outside with all his moaning and rap-speak.

Oh you mean Jacques? Well Joe Saward likes to compare them, that's something they have in common.


"Rap-speak"... what is the average age of this forum ? 65?

#30 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:28

I think both drivers are similar in the way they seem to have closed off any chance of going to another big team if the gamble doesn't pay off. Villeneuve was basically locked out of any top drives once he realised BAR was a disaster that wouldn't give him any wins and it could be a similar situation for LH.

#31 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:31

I think both drivers are similar in the way they seem to have closed off any chance of going to another big team if the gamble doesn't pay off. Villeneuve was basically locked out of any top drives once he realised BAR was a disaster that wouldn't give him any wins and it could be a similar situation for LH.


That is the danger, and it did happen to Jacques.

Lewis is not exactly on the Red Bull or Ferrari shopping list even now, so he needs to succeed at Mercedes. He also needs to avoid seeming to be high maintenance or easily distracted by personal issues.

#32 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:36

Yeah. Lewis has burnt his bridges at McLaren, Ferrari will never be an option as long as Alonso is there, and Red Bull don't seem that keen on him.

#33 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:38

I think both drivers are similar in the way they seem to have closed off any chance of going to another big team if the gamble doesn't pay off. Villeneuve was basically locked out of any top drives once he realised BAR was a disaster that wouldn't give him any wins and it could be a similar situation for LH.


Have they now? JV stayed on out of personal interest, and maybe some stubbornness. He could have gone (nearly) wherever he wanted to. LH? it's only a three year contract. It is not unreasonable. And I would rather call it a challenge than a gamble too. I kind of like it that he had the balls to pick up on that.

Edited by Szoelloe, 29 September 2012 - 16:38.


#34 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:42

Have they now? JV stayed on out of personal interest, and maybe some stubbornness. He could have gone (nearly) wherever he wanted to. LH? it's only a three year contract. It is not unreasonable. And I would rather call it a challenge than a gamble too. I kind of like it that he had the balls to pick up on that.


Up to about 2001, yes. What offers did he have when BAR dropped him at the end of 2003?

#35 superdelphinus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:44

I don't buy that red bull wouldn't be / aren't interested in him for a second. A team who is basically in formula 1 for me reason, not interested in the most marketable driver in the series? Hmmm. I think the merc thing was pretty much known about early on in the season

#36 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:45

Have they now? JV stayed on out of personal interest, and maybe some stubbornness. He could have gone (nearly) wherever he wanted to. LH? it's only a three year contract. It is not unreasonable. And I would rather call it a challenge than a gamble too. I kind of like it that he had the balls to pick up on that.


Could he now. None of the top teams were interested in him, the found younger, more PR friendly drivers who were just as quick if not quicker than him, and he ended up without any team on the grid giving him a drive for the start of 2004.

And it is a gamble. The best drivers make sure they get themselves in the fastest cars.

#37 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:46

I don't buy that red bull wouldn't be / aren't interested in him for a second. A team who is basically in formula 1 for me reason, not interested in the most marketable driver in the series? Hmmm. I think the merc thing was pretty much known about early on in the season


Well why haven't Red Bull signed him up then? He practically threw himself at Horner last year.

#38 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:47

I don't buy that red bull wouldn't be / aren't interested in him for a second. A team who is basically in formula 1 for me reason, not interested in the most marketable driver in the series? Hmmm. I think the merc thing was pretty much known about early on in the season


So why have they not siged him up then? He surely would have opted for them over Mercedes.

#39 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:57

So why have they not siged him up then? He surely would have opted for them over Mercedes.


Cause they already have drivers on long term contracts, there was no clear spot. Vettel, Alonso and Lewis won't be in the same team together.

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#40 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:59

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Webber is on a one year deal.........

#41 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 16:59

Cause they already have drivers on long term contracts, there was no clear spot. Vettel, Alonso and Lewis won't be in the same team together.


Not true. Webber's contract expired this year, and had to be renewed for another year. And the Torro Rosso drivers are completely expendable, as we have seen.

#42 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:00

Not true. Webber's contract expired this year, and had to be renewed for another year. And the Torro Rosso drivers are completely expendable, as we have seen.


Vettel would still be there, lewis and vettel in the same team wouldn't happen, or did you miss that?

Edited by study, 29 September 2012 - 17:01.


#43 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:02

Could he now. None of the top teams were interested in him, the found younger, more PR friendly drivers who were just as quick if not quicker than him, and he ended up without any team on the grid giving him a drive for the start of 2004.

And it is a gamble. The best drivers make sure they get themselves in the fastest cars.


I beg to differ. You can't know that, because it had not happened in the first three years, and more. If he would've wanted to, he would've gone. He was still considered a high-profile driver.

I beg to differ again. MS joined a Ferrari team that had a 21 year dry run, and was a mess. FA joined a Ferrari in decline, and is still fighting for his first WDC with the team, and is considered to be the best driver on the grid. It is a challenge.


#44 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:03

Vettel would still be there, lewis and vettel in the same team wouldn't happen, or did you miss that?


Or to put it another way, Red Bull are happy with their lead driver and did not bite when approached by Lewis and XIX

Edit: Even though they, and Ferrari, had vacancies this year.

Edited by garoidb, 29 September 2012 - 17:03.


#45 BigWicks

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:05

Vettel would still be there, lewis and vettel in the same team wouldn't happen, or did you miss that?


Then Lewis would have been better waiting for Vettel to move on in 2014

#46 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:05

Or to put it another way, Red Bull are happy with their lead driver and did not bite when approached by Lewis and XIX

Edit: Even though they, and Ferrari, had vacancies this year.


Why would they dump Vettel who has a contract and replace him with Lewis? That would be dumb.

Vettel, Alonso and Lewis in the same team wouldn't work.





I'm not making out Lewis is better then Vettel or Alonso, so why the eagerness to pile the shit on Lewis when its logical why they wasn't positions open at ferrari and Redbull :rolleyes:

#47 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:06

Then Lewis would have been better waiting for Vettel to move on in 2014


Maybe Mercedes made a good offer, maybe McLaren wouldn't give a 1 year contract to see him go next time. :rolleyes:

#48 PinkZepStones

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:12

Let's say Rosberg does beat Hamilton over the season (after all Button did).

In the final standings, something like:
Rosberg P8 WDC
Hamilton P10 WDC

Surely the British press and fans will lose interest, and he will be forgotten... making all the (diminishing) well of endorsements negligible.



Youve obviously never met many British fans, F1 is our sport, like most others, we clap Alonso when he wins at Silverstone and Hamiltons 8th Button even further behind, and we turn in year on year in record numbers to watch our beautiful sport, we were watching F1 long before Hamilton, we also were watching when our biggest hope was Coulthard, we shall watch whether Hamilton does well at Mercedes or not, and beaten or not.


British press however, different story, they hound every sports star they can, are their best mates when they win, and biggest enemies when they dont.

#49 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:13

I'm not making out Lewis is better then Vettel or Alonso, so why the eagerness to pile the shit on Lewis when its logical why they wasn't positions open at ferrari and Redbull :rolleyes:


The original point was that Lewis may not be able to get a drive in a top team in three (or whatever) years time if he and Mercedes have not succeeded together. The truth is that the top teams will not go out of their way to secure his signature even now. Only Mercedes were prepared to ease out their big name driver for him, and that driver (MS) is teetering on the brink of retirement. It is not reasonable to assume that this situation will be any different in three years time, unless Lewis has the opportunity to impress in the meantime.

#50 7MGTEsup

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:21

I'm sorry to say Lewis is looking more and more like a one time champion to me. I just don't see him winning another unless Alonso and Vettel retire as they are far more consistent and just as fast. Unless Merc turn a corner and quickly then I just can't see him being anything more than an odd podium finisher every now and again. I also think Nico will give him a much tougher time than Jenson.