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Similarities between Hamilton and Villeneuve


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#51 PinkZepStones

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:22

The original point was that Lewis may not be able to get a drive in a top team in three (or whatever) years time if he and Mercedes have not succeeded together. The truth is that the top teams will not go out of their way to secure his signature even now. Only Mercedes were prepared to ease out their big name driver for him, and that driver (MS) is teetering on the brink of retirement. It is not reasonable to assume that this situation will be any different in three years time, unless Lewis has the opportunity to impress in the meantime.



Complete and utter madness.

Ferrari will want him, actually didnt they offer him a race seat for 08? Yes, yes they did.

Mercedes want him, obviously.


Mclaren are gutted hes left.


Frank Williams admires the man


Red Bull exist only to serve Vettel, why would they want him beaten?


Hamilton has been in F1 for several years, if he beats Rosberg aswell, and im inclined to believe he will, his stick will only raise with yet another driver he can beat, So far its two world champions.......Hamilton is near enough the most sought after property in F1, and not only due to driving.

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#52 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:26

I'm sorry to say Lewis is looking more and more like a one time champion to me. I just don't see him winning another unless Alonso and Vettel retire as they are far more consistent and just as fast. Unless Merc turn a corner and quickly then I just can't see him being anything more than an odd podium finisher every now and again. I also think Nico will give him a much tougher time than Jenson.


Tell me where Lewis has being inconsistent this year?

Without car and team strategy/operating issues Lewis would be leading the WDC by quite a margin.

#53 study

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:29

The original point was that Lewis may not be able to get a drive in a top team in three (or whatever) years time if he and Mercedes have not succeeded together. The truth is that the top teams will not go out of their way to secure his signature even now. Only Mercedes were prepared to ease out their big name driver for him, and that driver (MS) is teetering on the brink of retirement. It is not reasonable to assume that this situation will be any different in three years time, unless Lewis has the opportunity to impress in the meantime.


Thats the same for any driver if they don't perform, on one hand your don't want to make out Lewis is special on the other you seem to think that some rules only stand for him.

Did Renaults lack of results and cheating damage Alonso?

Why would Ferrari and Redbull get rid of their top drivers that are settled in and replace with another top driver?

People lose all sense of logic in their eagerness to Bash.


#54 MirNyet

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:30

Another interesting fact would be that both were partnered by Button when they left the teams which previously they had both been deeply involved with.



#55 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:32

Complete and utter madness.

Ferrari will want him, actually didnt they offer him a race seat for 08? Yes, yes they did.


This is news to me. Can you supply some more detail please,

Mercedes want him, obviously.


Obvious, but not relevant. We are talking about teams that are, or will be, more competitive than Mercedes.

Mclaren are gutted hes left.


Maybe they will take him back in a few years.

Frank Williams admires the man


Again, we are talking about teams that are more competitive than Mercedes. There are lots of mid-field and backmarker teams who would probably take him.

Red Bull exist only to serve Vettel, why would they want him beaten?


A convenient excuse.

Hamilton has been in F1 for several years, if he beats Rosberg aswell, and im inclined to believe he will, his stick will only raise with yet another driver he can beat, So far its two world champions.......Hamilton is near enough the most sought after property in F1, and not only due to driving.


Words fail me.

#56 Kingshark

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:35

1.) Finish runner-up in your first year.
2.) Take the championship battle to the final round.
3.) Win four races in your debut season.
4.) Win the championship in your second year, with a dramatic season finish.
5.) Move to the team of Brackley (BAR / Honda / Mercedes).
6.) Never win a race again? Perhaps, but probably not so.

#57 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:35

I'm sorry to say Lewis is looking more and more like a one time champion to me. I just don't see him winning another unless Alonso and Vettel retire as they are far more consistent and just as fast. Unless Merc turn a corner and quickly then I just can't see him being anything more than an odd podium finisher every now and again. I also think Nico will give him a much tougher time than Jenson.


That is the big question isn't it? I would not underestimate the influence of Brawn on LH's development towards being a more complete driver than he is atm. If you read back on the Brawn GP story, it is clear that Button has developed a great deal under Brawn's guidance. LH is younger too. I wouldn't underestimate Merc either. No better way for your questions to be answered, IMHO. As for NR, he will be a tough opponent, now it will be make-or-break for him too. Will be fun to follow, IMHO.


#58 PinkZepStones

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:41

garoidb you can go search it yourself, you obviously have more then enough spare time to bash Hamilton so it wouldnt trouble you much to prove me wrong, only you cant, reference 95 wikipedia Lewis Hamilton, Montezemelo offered Hamilton a drive for 08 as reported by Steve Cooper in Autosport.


Other than that, your ridiculous.

#59 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:45

Thats the same for any driver if they don't perform, on one hand your don't want to make out Lewis is special on the other you seem to think that some rules only stand for him.


The point is not just that Lewis needs to perform (they all do), but that he can only do that if Mercedes also perform.

Did Renaults lack of results and cheating damage Alonso?


No, but that was never a long term move and it happened unexpectedly. He was supposed to be on a three year McLaren contract and other teams had contracted drivers for 2008 and 2009. He was linked with Ferrari practically as soon as he left McLaren. It is not analagous.

Why would Ferrari and Redbull get rid of their top drivers that are settled in and replace with another top driver?


For a driver to join a team, another driver has to leave. If Red Bull or Ferrari want to sign a driver, they can make it happen. Look at Alonso's move to Ferrari for example. Simply, neither team were sufficiently interested in Lewis for this to arise.

People lose all sense of logic in their eagerness to Bash.


I am not bashing Lewis. I merely mentioned one of the risks of his move, as exemplified by JV before. Then, some posters started posting claims that are pure fantasy and take no account of the facts.

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#60 barni

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:47

i would be very surprised if nico defeated lewis. there`s no comparison to jenson imo.

#61 JimiKart

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:49

What kind of stupid comment is that?

Are you for real?

What exactly is being tarnished because Schuey as a 43 years old cannot do what 43 years old people aren't capable of doing anyway?


One could easily ask those same questions of you, do you find it difficult to grasp the concept that MS might have tarnished his record by making his comeback? Is it too hard to hard to understand the last decent seat open is a Sauber seat and therefore if MS wants to race next year that may be his only option, and if so he could end his career at Sauber and some people might view that as a setback or whatever you want to call it...

#62 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 17:58

garoidb you can go search it yourself, you obviously have more then enough spare time to bash Hamilton so it wouldnt trouble you much to prove me wrong, only you cant, reference 95 wikipedia Lewis Hamilton, Montezemelo offered Hamilton a drive for 08 as reported by Steve Cooper in Autosport.


Other than that, your ridiculous.


I don't have that issue of Autosport close to hand, but even the wikipedia article doesn't say he was offered a drive. You will have to do better than that.



#63 Atreiu

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:10

There arent enough coincidences and similarities to grant a compraision,if you ask me.

#64 velgajski1

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:16

Well why haven't Red Bull signed him up then? He practically threw himself at Horner last year.


Because they have Vettel. In 2014. it is a big question wheter they will have Vettel or not. If Vettel goes to Ferrari, I'm 99% sure that Lewis could basically pick a team to race already in 2014. (except Ferrari ofc). That includes McLaren and RBR.

#65 Mandzipop

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:25

I don't have that issue of Autosport close to hand, but even the wikipedia article doesn't say he was offered a drive. You will have to do better than that.


It does say that in Wikipedia it says

In the aftermath it was reported that Hamilton had been targeted by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo regarding a Ferrari drive for 2008.[95]

It is in the bit that discusses Hungary 2007.

http://en.wikipedia....on#cite_note-94

However it is Wikipedia.

But it is going a little off topic. I can't remember Jacques being offered a Ferrari drive. So it is not relevant to this thread unless he was offered a Ferrari drive. And no Jacques driving a Ferrari this year does not count.  ;)

Please stay on topic.

#66 garoidb

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:32

It does say that in Wikipedia it says

In the aftermath it was reported that Hamilton had been targeted by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo regarding a Ferrari drive for 2008.[95]

It is in the bit that discusses Hungary 2007.

http://en.wikipedia....on#cite_note-94


I saw it, but that is not being offered a drive. That is Luca stirring the pot in the media. I did find plenty of articles from the following year saying Luca would not offer Lewis a drive - also just stirring up trouble.

However it is Wikipedia.

But it is going a little off topic. I can't remember Jacques being offered a Ferrari drive. So it is not relevant to this thread unless he was offered a Ferrari drive. And no Jacques driving a Ferrari this year does not count. ;)

Please stay on topic.


OK, I'm done with this line of posting.

#67 g1n

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:38

Cause they already have drivers on long term contracts, there was no clear spot. Vettel, Alonso and Lewis won't be in the same team together.

Webber was and is always on a one year deal..........

#68 rijole1

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:47

We'll have to listen to Hamilton sing. Thus, comparison can't be done yet.


Exactly what I was thinking...

#69 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:53

BAR was a completely new team built from the remains of the fallen Tyrrell team. Mercedes is a near top team with substantial backing from a car manufacturer. I'm seeing massive differencees between Villeneuve's move and Hamilton's move

#70 Disgrace

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 20:37

BAR was a completely new team built from the remains of the fallen Tyrrell team. Mercedes is a near top team with substantial backing from a car manufacturer. I'm seeing massive differencees between Villeneuve's move and Hamilton's move


As far as I'm aware, BAR's 1999 budget was pretty substantial as well. The key difference is the people who can use the budget to wield results (Pollock/Reynard/Oastler vs. Brawn/Bell/Costa/Willis).

#71 Juan Kerr

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 20:41

Of course there are a ton of dissimilarities between the two. But some kind of dejavue it might seem for some aswell that Hamilton is doing the backwards career move by moving from the front pack to a midpack . It looks as much a questionable team change as Villeneuves did at the time.

Both drivers came into Formula 1 with a Bang. Both immediately challenged the established world class experienced teammate.

Villeneuve following his star managers adventure and sending his career from having everything going for it to an uphill struggle. Hamilton not starting with a new team, but having a new managment.

Hamilton having the confidence that whatever happens from now on, he will still be able to get back into a cockpit at the front. What if doors dont open later on as quickly or as timely.

What if Rosberg, who knows the car and team well, and they know him and his driving preferences/setup desires well, matches him, or beat him frequently. Then how does he look?

Both have won 1 Championship.

With both career moves, much more money, a bigger contract was beeing a nice bonus to take the step. (plunge?)

Subtle difference though, no-one else on the grid can match Hamilton's out-and-out raw pace whereas Villeneuve was pretty average and good at best.


#72 Myrvold

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 22:21

Both came into F1 in the best car.

Both challenged their more experienced team-mates in the first season; both winning four races.

Both lost the title at the last race of their first season.

Both lost said more experienced team-mates in their second season, becoming number one.

Both won the title at the second attempt.

Both sophomore years were less impressive/consistent than their debut years despite winning the championship.

Both had no chance to defend their title due to their teams not adapting to rules changes.

Both fell out with the team that gave them their break, leaving for a team (the same team) with great potential but no results.

The similarities are quite interesting really; but recently they've started to fade. Although BAR is the same Brackley team as Mercedes now is, those in charge of Mercedes have much more F1 pedigree than the initial BAR startup had.


Are you on F1Rejects by any chance? I remember I wrote a post, just like this (without the last two lines, as that hadn't happened at the time I wrote the post) :p

#73 Myrvold

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 22:28

But it is going a little off topic. I can't remember Jacques being offered a Ferrari drive. So it is not relevant to this thread unless he was offered a Ferrari drive. And no Jacques driving a Ferrari this year does not count. ;)

Please stay on topic.


Sure? I know it was talked about him joining Benetton or McLaren in 01. But I seem to remember that he might've had a shot at a Ferrari ride as well. Around the times when he joined F1.

#74 Disgrace

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 22:45

Are you on F1Rejects by any chance? I remember I wrote a post, just like this (without the last two lines, as that hadn't happened at the time I wrote the post) :p


As I perceive it, that is a list of facts so it's quite possible it has been replicated. That is a great site though, this sort of trivia is what makes it tick.

#75 Baddoer

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 22:47

yes, they have similar fate

#76 krobinson

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 23:29

I have this bad feeling that in 2-3 years time Lewis will regret this decision and his career will in fact follow the path set by JV. He is obviously more talented, but still, I don't think this is a good move at all by him.
Hopefully I am wrong and his obvious talent will not go to waste.

#77 gm914

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 23:33

Posted Image

#78 BigCHrome

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 00:13

I have this bad feeling that in 2-3 years time Lewis will regret this decision and his career will in fact follow the path set by JV. He is obviously more talented, but still, I don't think this is a good move at all by him.
Hopefully I am wrong and his obvious talent will not go to waste.


Hamilton probably has some sort of performance clause for 2015. If the car is complete garbage in 2013 and 2014, he'd probably be allowed to leave early. If Vettel goes to Ferrari, Hamilton can easily slot in RBR.

#79 pinkypants

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 00:30

We have Lewis's first record right here :p



From LH thread :p

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#80 Myrvold

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:19

As I perceive it, that is a list of facts so it's quite possible it has been replicated. That is a great site though, this sort of trivia is what makes it tick.


Yeah, I didn't mean you "stole" it or something. It's hard to steal facts :)

#81 BMW4life

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:30

Here's a difference.... Hamilton is the real deal!

#82 Myrvold

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:59

Here's a difference.... Hamilton is the real deal!


Which... is what was said about JV 10-12 years ago as well.

At the end of 01, JV's stock was at least as high as 96/97.

#83 CaptnMark

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:47

Here's a difference.... Hamilton is the real deal!


Actually, he has a real deal (engine one, unless Merc quits). It was really stupid for JV to go to BAR using Mecachromes.

#84 #99

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:57

What kind of stupid comment is that?

Are you for real?

What exactly is being tarnished because Schuey as a 43 years old cannot do what 43 years old people aren't capable of doing anyway?


I'm sorry, I must of missed the unmatched success te MS/Merc move has brought.


#85 Kingshark

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:40

You know what's funny to me? At the end of 2008, Lewis was expected to be the next big thing. He was expected to break Schumacher's records and achievements. Had you told anyone that now 2013 is nearing and Lewis is still a 1 time champion who hasn't finished in the top 3 since, they'd call you nuts.

Now, 4 years later it seems more and more likely Hamilton will remain a sole champion throughout his career.

Jacques Villeneuve 2.0 right there, although mind you I still believe he's the better driver of the two.

#86 Baddoer

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:39

Here's a difference.... Hamilton is the real deal!

You have to watch Melbourne 1997 qualifying. Almost 2 sec faster than anyone else.

#87 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:48

Vettel, Alonso and Lewis in the same team wouldn't work.

Why not?

The team is English, Hamilton visits England sometimes (!!), but anyway he can work easily with the team.

The problem surely is that Red Bull is not prepared to pay Hamilton's very high asking salary (much higher than Vettel's salary?).

It would be a great pair as both prefer a car with plenty of front grip and a little loose in the rear. Great for development. :up: :up:

Otherwise an excellent pairing Vettel/Hamilton :up: knowing that Vettel is moving on to Ferrari, and they will need some-else (probably less experienced) alongside Hammy.

#88 stanga

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:06

You know what's funny to me? At the end of 2008, Lewis was expected to be the next big thing. He was expected to break Schumacher's records and achievements. Had you told anyone that now 2013 is nearing and Lewis is still a 1 time champion who hasn't finished in the top 3 since, they'd call you nuts.

Now, 4 years later it seems more and more likely Hamilton will remain a sole champion throughout his career.

Jacques Villeneuve 2.0 right there, although mind you I still believe he's the better driver of the two.


2009 dog of a car for most of the season, still managed to win
2010 out developed by rivals at sharp end of season
2011 below par year, quite possibly a nadir in his career, still wins three times and is the only non RBR to get a pole
2012 amazingly consistent drives, easily the best driver along with Alonso - should be leading the championship by quite a margin if the team had only cocked up half as many times

So not quite the black and white picture, really. And he's only 27 with plenty of time left yet.

#89 maverick69

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:27

Seems like another stick for the usual suspects to beat Hamilton with - because you could say similar things about most 1 x WDCs. And besides, Hamilton is unlikely to be in his prime yet, is likely to be in F1 for at least another decade, and the prospects for success at Mercedes are far, far greater than what JV had at BAR.

And anyone who thinks JV is fit to lace Hamilton's boots in terms of talent is quite frankly deluded.......

Edited by maverick69, 30 September 2012 - 10:28.


#90 ayali

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:37

You know what's funny to me? At the end of 2008, Lewis was expected to be the next big thing. He was expected to break Schumacher's records and achievements. Had you told anyone that now 2013 is nearing and Lewis is still a 1 time champion who hasn't finished in the top 3 since, they'd call you nuts.

Yes it is funny if you read some of the articles from back then, youngest WDC, will re-write the record books bla-di-bla
Of course there were also some back then who didn't buy into the hype

Now, 4 years later it seems more and more likely Hamilton will remain a sole champion throughout his career.

Jacques Villeneuve 2.0 right there, although mind you I still believe he's the better driver of the two.

Likely I dunno but very much possible yes.
His future and career has been put in Mercedes' hands.
If they don't significantly improve he'll be a 1 time WDC after nearly a decade in F1
sounds very much Villeneuve 2.0 to me, time to record his first album in 2016 ;-)

#91 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:37

Seems like another stick for the usual suspects to beat Hamilton with - because you could say similar things about most 1 x WDCs. And besides, Hamilton is unlikely to be in his prime yet, is likely to be in F1 for at least another decade, and the prospects for success at Mercedes are far, far greater than what JV had at BAR.


Jacques Villeneuve was 27 when he made his debut for BAR. What age is Lewis now?

Certainly the JV experience is the worst case scenario, and Mercedes should be better than BAR. However, we have all heard mid-grid teams make ambitious claims before - Toyota spring to mind, as do Honda and even BMW (maybe the most similar case). There is a real possibility that Mercedes will not improve. That is a risk that Lewis has taken.

#92 maverick69

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:54

Jacques Villeneuve was 27 when he made his debut for BAR. What age is Lewis now?

Certainly the JV experience is the worst case scenario, and Mercedes should be better than BAR. However, we have all heard mid-grid teams make ambitious claims before - Toyota spring to mind, as do Honda and even BMW (maybe the most similar case). There is a real possibility that Mercedes will not improve. That is a risk that Lewis has taken.


I wasn't comparing JV in his prime to Lewis per se - I was just saying that there's plenty to come.

The problem is that now that Hamilton has made a move to have a go at answering the detractors favorite bash of "He has to prove himself in a team away from the bussom of McLaren in order to have any sort of decent legacy" you get the kind of weak, virtually irrelevant bashes like this - because, as you say the JV experience is the worst case scenario.

And in reference to the possibility that Merc may not improve. Well that is always a possibility - but I find that very unlikely given what they have been up to with their infrastructure in the past couple of years. And don't forget that the car has won a race this year! It's not exactly as quick as the top cars at this stage of the season - but it's not a shitbox..... and I also reckon that Hamilton will have extracted more out of it this year.

Edited by maverick69, 30 September 2012 - 10:55.


#93 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:08

I wasn't comparing JV in his prime to Lewis per se - I was just saying that there's plenty to come.

The problem is that now that Hamilton has made a move to have a go at answering the detractors favorite bash of "He has to prove himself in a team away from the bussom of McLaren in order to have any sort of decent legacy" you get the kind of weak, virtually irrelevant bashes like this - because, as you say the JV experience is the worst case scenario.


Well, if I was "bashing" (I love the use of that word here), then the whole thread is a bash.

And in reference to the possibility that Merc may not improve. Well that is always a possibility - but I find that very unlikely given what they have been up to with their infrastructure in the past couple of years. And don't forget that the car has won a race this year! It's not exactly as quick as the top cars at this stage of the season - but it's not a shitbox..... and I also reckon that Hamilton will have extracted more out of it this year.


I agree, actually. If the field stays this close, then Lewis will have some good days as he should be able to make up more of the difference.

#94 krobinson

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:13

Hamilton probably has some sort of performance clause for 2015. If the car is complete garbage in 2013 and 2014, he'd probably be allowed to leave early. If Vettel goes to Ferrari, Hamilton can easily slot in RBR.

But even if that clause exists, that would still mean 2 wasted years and in F1 that is a long time. RB might have some prospect in sight by then and it could easily happen that LH would not find a top drive anymore.
Hopefully this will not happen and Mercedes will have a great car.

#95 Xpat

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:15

Hopefully this means we will see Hamilton in a Nationwide car in a few years battling Danica!

#96 as65p

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:16

Well, if I was "bashing" (I love the use of that word here), then the whole thread is a bash.


Which is exactly as a good deal of Hamilton supporters see it, no doubt. Blasphemy, at the least.

#97 maverick69

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:34

Well, if I was "bashing" (I love the use of that word here), then the whole thread is a bash.

I agree, actually. If the field stays this close, then Lewis will have some good days as he should be able to make up more of the difference.


I'm not saying that you are bashing - it's just that the context of OP is a crap way of putting forward what is a fair debate i.e. Has Hamilton taken a big risk? And what do you think are his prospects of success?

I've lost count of the JV and Hamilton comparisons on here. I just cannot see the relevance of that comparison other than to have a pop at Hamilton because their situations and their respective talents are very different.

Edited by maverick69, 30 September 2012 - 11:35.


#98 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:38

but I find that very unlikely given what they have been up to with their infrastructure in the past couple of years.

Off the top of my head, Toyota and BMW had their best seasons - then they got worse despite having more supercomputers, more wind tunnels and more simulators.

Not a good sign !

#99 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:49

I've lost count of the JV and Hamilton comparisons on here. I just cannot see the relevance of that comparison other than to have a pop at Hamilton because their situations and their respective talents are very different.

The comparison is terribly relevant.

They are both casual, laid back racers who get in and drive the wheels off it, then go off and do other things--a bit like Kimi or Hunt... not the Schumi or Vettel "must win at all cost" determined types (of course Vettel is a fair racer unlike Schumi though). They are both changing to the ex-Tyrrell team, on the premise of a huge salary and ultimately works manufacturer backing of an established Grand Prix racing marque (originally Honda, now Mercedes-Benz).

On the other hand, JV had the option to continue with Williams on a small salary knowing that a works BMW package was being prepared, initially by competing in Le Mans racing. Similarly Hamilton has the option to continue with McLaren on a small(er) salary, and the team will continue to pay for Mercedes engines of reasonable specification for the time being as the buy-back is completed.

Surely you can picture a semi-retired Hamilton down the track, casually taking guess drives in Le Mans and NASCAR races--provided he is paid nicely and can just turn up with his helmet -- exactly like Jacques. :)

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#100 maverick69

maverick69
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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:59

Off the top of my head, Toyota and BMW had their best seasons - then they got worse despite having more supercomputers, more wind tunnels and more simulators.

Not a good sign !


And off the top of my head Red Bull invested massively in their infrastructure, got supercomputers, and more importantly - quality personell......