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Similarities between Hamilton and Villeneuve


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#101 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:39

And off the top of my head Red Bull invested massively in their infrastructure, got supercomputers, and more importantly - quality personell......

And got lucky with customer engine regulations that require an equal spec, and an accommodating engine supplier that took on rear wing signage and even allowed it to be on-sold to another related car brand for a higher price! (ever seen a Force India with a Mercedes sign on the rear wing)

Very much an anomaly really. Their success will be more like Benetton or Renault, then back to the midfield IMO. They are already being hurt by aerodynamic restrictions imposed on flexy floors and EBDs and shifty ride height adjusters. They have done well to improve on their aero strength by putting together a strong suspension engine team, all credit on that. However they are still awful in the powertrain area--their KERS never works properly for one thing.

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#102 Xpat

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 13:41

I seems to me that it is never a good thing when a top talent driver (both JV and LH fit that bill) go to a team and languish. Not good for the sport or the fans.

Let's hope that it doesn't play out that way.

#103 Biggun

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:02

Hamilton is far superior as a driver than JV ever was so poor comparison

#104 Xpat

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 14:54

Hamilton is far superior as a driver than JV ever was so poor comparison


Anthony Hamilton chimes in.... :rolleyes:

#105 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:13

Hamilton is far superior as a driver than JV ever was so poor comparison


If the rest of Lewis's career pans out the same as Jacques' did, then he will be viewed the same way Jacques is now. Now, that is the worst case scenario as I have stated previously. I would be surprised if it worked out that badly. I certainly expect him to be able to win more races, which Jacques could not do.

Some people do not seem to realise that JV was considered a top three driver at a similar stage of his F1 career (after the WDC and in the early BAR years).

#106 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:15

Anthony Hamilton chimes in.... :rolleyes:



Speaking of which, has the real Anthony made any comment on Lewis's move? It would be interesting to hear his perspective on the matter.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 30 September 2012 - 15:15.


#107 study

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:16

Anthony Hamilton chimes in.... :rolleyes:


People complain about Lewis fans but usually the insults and put downs are all from the other direction.

As mentioned above the comparisions are just to bash lewis and to say he'll only have 1 WDC, well going by McLaren's operating performance this year, he could have only 1 WDC championship staying with them.

Merc are hiring, engineers and drivers, they have a target of performance to meet and are willing to build around Lewis.

Look at McLaren
they split his race engineers up and took them away from him in eagerness to meet buttons demands of equality and so that it wasn't "lewis team"
They have often given preferential strategy through the races
When Button was struggling, they devoted not only buttons engineers but also lewis engineers to solving the issues and also changed lewis working setup to one they both could start from

Is it any wonder Merc seems the better option.

#108 TheNewStig

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:20

Similarities between Hamilton and Villeneuve?
Yes,both are 1x-WDC.Is there more similarities then?
Maybe that none of them can't sing?
That's it i belive.

#109 ayali

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 15:23

Merc are hiring, engineers and drivers, they have a target of performance to meet and are willing to build around Lewis.

I'm sure BAR was hiring engineers and drivers too, also they were willing to build around Jacques

#110 bub

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 16:10

Off the top of my head, Toyota and BMW had their best seasons - then they got worse despite having more supercomputers, more wind tunnels and more simulators.

Not a good sign !



I'm sure BAR was hiring engineers and drivers too, also they were willing to build around Jacques


So how does a team become successful? By not having a budget, infrastructure, personnel?
Or maybe only McLaren and Ferrari can be successful, even though the Brackley team have won championships more recently?

Edited by bub, 30 September 2012 - 16:11.


#111 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 16:54

making a note of anyone who actually thinks they are comparable so I know to dismiss their opinion on anything F1 related out of hand in future.

#112 gm914

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:03

making a note of anyone who actually thinks they are comparable so I know to dismiss their opinion on anything F1 related out of hand in future.

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Can't you let us off with just a warning, Officer?

#113 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:04

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Can't you let us off with just a warning, Officer?


:rotfl:


#114 ayali

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:06

making a note of anyone who actually thinks they are comparable so I know to dismiss their opinion on anything F1 related out of hand in future.

Make sure you avoid Joe Saward's blog then

Perhaps Mercedes will pull it off and then Hamilton will look clever, but I fear that this will be a move similar to James Hunt joining Wolf; Emerson Fittipaldi joining Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve moving to BAR or Niki Lauda’s ill-fated move to Brabham.


But what does he know, he's been covering the sport and attending the races for 25 years only and not since he was 4 years old lol

http://joesaward.wor...s-and-mercedes/


#115 MrPodium

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:07

They both raced in F1.
They both won a WDC in their second season.
They both have had Jenson Button as a teammate.

Nothing else springs to mind immediately, as Hamilton doesn't work in Brackley yet, or have Jack Clear as a race engineer (likely imo) at this moment in time.

#116 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:10

They both raced in F1.
They both won a WDC in their second season.
They both have had Jenson Button as a teammate.

Nothing else springs to mind immediately, as Hamilton doesn't work in Brackley yet, or have Jack Clear as a race engineer (likely imo) at this moment in time.


They have both partnered Fernando Alonso too (just a few races for Jacques).

#117 maverick69

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:25

Make sure you avoid Joe Saward's blog then



But what does he know, he's been covering the sport and attending the races for 25 years only and not since he was 4 years old lol

http://joesaward.wor...s-and-mercedes/


He also said that Mercedes would be better off hiring Pedro de la Rosa over Hamilton..... and that Perez would never sign for McLaren.

I'm sure you will subscribe to that too..........

Edited by maverick69, 30 September 2012 - 17:30.


#118 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 17:38

X Factor Judges.

#119 solochamp07

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:04

The Williams team was in decline, well underway even through JV's WDC season, in which they lost Newey to McLaren and suffered from waning works Renault support.

They began 2007 with a massive performance advantage and tried to ride that out all year, with little effective development. By year's end, their pace had been equalled by Ferrari and surpassed by McLaren. People often knock JV for "backing into" his WDC but the reality is he had to drive his ass off to win that crown (and still would have lost without the assistance of Mercedes' exploding engines and MS's kamikaze antics.) By 1998, their car was an absolute dog, barely able to get out of its own way. Choice of destinations aside, I think leaving Williams at that time was not that bold a decision for Jacques. What would Seb have done, had RB given him a STR/Cosworth last year to defend his first title with?

McLaren today is at the very top of the performance range and shows no signs of leaving that sphere any time soon. To me, that makes Lewis' move a bigger gamble in terms of his legacy, if not his bank account.


...a thousand miles better than the canadian of course.


...lewis is much more talented than villeneuve ever was.


...whereas Villeneuve was pretty average and good at best.


Here's a difference.... Hamilton is the real deal!


Seriously? Are your memories that poor and/or selective? Or are you teenagers? You know, we had video back then too. There should be adequate footage available with which you could educate yourselves. I mean footage of races and quals, btw, not Peter Windsor editorials.

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#120 AlexS

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:05

What about similarities with Schumacher when he changed to Ferrari?

Edited by AlexS, 30 September 2012 - 18:05.


#121 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:19

What about similarities with Schumacher when he changed to Ferrari?


I was trying to think of others too. The move of Prost from Renault to McLaren for 1984 was, on the face of it, a downward move based on 1983 standings but worked out very well. He wasn't a WDC by then, of course.

#122 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:28

Seriously? Are your memories that poor and/or selective? Or are you teenagers? You know, we had video back then too. There should be adequate footage available with which you could educate yourselves. I mean footage of races and quals, btw, not Peter Windsor editorials.

If we were all talking about gilles you would have a point, but because we're talking about J.villeneuve you don't

#123 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:41

If we were all talking about gilles you would have a point, but because we're talking about J.villeneuve you don't


That is your subjective opinion, of course. It should worry fans of Lewis that perceptions of a drivers talents and achievements can be so affected by the later circumstances of their career. But it doesn't, obviously.

Would it be impertinent to ask what the 1994 in your name signifies?

#124 Peter Perfect

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 18:43

The Button vs Villeneuve and Button vs Hamilton threads certainly have a few things in common.

#125 Fondmetal

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 19:20

Both dating pop stars, Danni Minogue in JV's case, and Nicole in Hamiltons. I think His pop star Management is looking at ££££ before results, this is career suicide. Besides, Lewis seems to get more pleasure these days from being a celeb mixing with rappers and Hollywood stars than being dedicated to winning and focusing on his racing. He should never have got rid of his dad, who kept him in check and focussed. You dont hear celeb, twitter party antics from many of the other F1 WC's most seem very private and keep their lifes away from the prying eyes of the media, yet Lewis just cant get enough of it. Last week there was news of his Girlfriend getting bit too close with Chris Brown, is that the kind of distractions an F1 driver fighting for a championship needs?

#126 F1FAN013

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 19:31

Both dating pop stars, Danni Minogue in JV's case, and Nicole in Hamiltons. I think His pop star Management is looking at ££££ before results, this is career suicide. Besides, Lewis seems to get more pleasure these days from being a celeb mixing with rappers and Hollywood stars than being dedicated to winning and focusing on his racing. He should never have got rid of his dad, who kept him in check and focussed. You dont hear celeb, twitter party antics from many of the other F1 WC's most seem very private and keep their lifes away from the prying eyes of the media, yet Lewis just cant get enough of it. Last week there was news of his Girlfriend getting bit too close with Chris Brown, is that the kind of distractions an F1 driver fighting for a championship needs?


He has been 100% focussed this season driving for Mclaren. There have been negotiations questions time after time by the media but that hasn't affected he driving at all. He has been arguably the best driver along with Alonso this season. He would be leading the championship without massive mess ups from the team. Pit stops, reliability and drivers crashing into him. So your saying he can't enjoy his life mixing with rappers and hollywood stars...? Forget the commercial side of the agreement with Mercedes. Whitmarsh and Brawn have both come out and said that leaving Mclaren wasn't about the money. He could have stayed with Mclaren and won some races in the upcoming because history has told us that Mclaren is normally competitive. He wanted a new challenge. I respect him for doing that.

Edited by F1FAN013, 30 September 2012 - 19:38.


#127 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 19:48

That is your subjective opinion, of course. It should worry fans of Lewis that perceptions of a drivers talents and achievements can be so affected by the later circumstances of their career. But it doesn't, obviously.

Would it be impertinent to ask what the 1994 in your name signifies?

Of course it is but most people agree, i don't see lewis career going like JVs, car wise maybe it will, but being beaten by your teamates i find that unlikely to happen to lewis but it happened to JV, button, massa and heidfeld.
haha i am a teenager 18, but i love formula 1 and make sure that all the things i missed out on i catch up on. :)


#128 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 20:29

Of course it is but most people agree, i don't see lewis career going like JVs, car wise maybe it will, but being beaten by your teamates i find that unlikely to happen to lewis but it happened to JV, button, massa and heidfeld.
haha i am a teenager 18, but i love formula 1 and make sure that all the things i missed out on i catch up on. :)


I wish I was 18, no problem with that!

I also don't see Lewis having the same problems as JV, or at least not to the same extent. There are some similarities, though.

The thing is, the career of someone like Jacques Villeneuve can seem a lot different if you always knew the final outcome. He was very promising, very fast, and there were a lot of high expectations. At one point, it looked like he would be the one to take the fight to Schumacher in the second half of the 90s and beyond. He was very fast and had a high reputation. In 2000 he was ranked third in the Autocourse Drivers Top Ten.

But, he squandered his best years and is now remembered more for the later years, and ultimate failure, at BAR, and not being able to shine at Sauber at the age of 34/35. Do you see what I am getting at?

#129 as65p

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 21:32

I was trying to think of others too. The move of Prost from Renault to McLaren for 1984 was, on the face of it, a downward move based on 1983 standings but worked out very well. He wasn't a WDC by then, of course.


That wasn't a move as such, he was simply fired by Renault, and in fact pretty luck to be picked up by team that suddenly jumped from midfield to domination the very next season. In fact, had John Watson not tried to play hardball with Dennis over his salary and thereby delayed negotiations, Prost would have had real difficulties finding a half-competitive seat for 1984.

#130 garoidb

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 21:38

That wasn't a move as such, he was simply fired by Renault, and in fact pretty luck to be picked up by team that suddenly jumped from midfield to domination the very next season. In fact, had John Watson not tried to play hardball with Dennis over his salary and thereby delayed negotiations, Prost would have had real difficulties finding a half-competitive seat for 1984.


Yes, Prost was really, really lucky. The fact that it was not voluntary is certainly an important distinction. In fact, Schumacher's current predicament reminded me of Watson's misfortune a little.

#131 as65p

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 21:45

Yes, Prost was really, really lucky. The fact that it was not voluntary is certainly an important distinction. In fact, Schumacher's current predicament reminded me of Watson's misfortune a little.


Yep, now that you drew the connection, indeed.

#132 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 21:54

I wish I was 18, no problem with that!

I also don't see Lewis having the same problems as JV, or at least not to the same extent. There are some similarities, though.

The thing is, the career of someone like Jacques Villeneuve can seem a lot different if you always knew the final outcome. He was very promising, very fast, and there were a lot of high expectations. At one point, it looked like he would be the one to take the fight to Schumacher in the second half of the 90s and beyond. He was very fast and had a high reputation. In 2000 he was ranked third in the Autocourse Drivers Top Ten.

But, he squandered his best years and is now remembered more for the later years, and ultimate failure, at BAR, and not being able to shine at Sauber at the age of 34/35. Do you see what I am getting at?

Yeah i do and lewis move to merc has edged him closer to the way jacques career went, but if it does all fail at merc he can go somewhere else.
Either way it will be great too see the next turn in lewis's already controversial career. :up:

#133 ayali

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 22:51

Yeah i do and lewis move to merc has edged him closer to the way jacques career went, but if it does all fail at merc he can go somewhere else.

lol the top teams Ferrari and Red Bull weren't interested in free agent Lewis Hamilton when both of them had an opening for 2013
I don't expect them to be more interested in a 30 y/o Lewis after a failed stint at Mercedes
No it's make or break this time just as it turned out to be for Jacques

#134 bub

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 23:00

lol the top teams Ferrari and Red Bull weren't interested in free agent Lewis Hamilton when both of them had an opening for 2013
I don't expect them to be more interested in a 30 y/o Lewis after a failed stint at Mercedes


A lot can change in 3 years. As long as he's still one of the best drivers he should be able to get a decent seat.

#135 Coops3

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 23:12

A lot can change in 3 years. As long as he's still one of the best drivers he should be able to get a decent seat.


Exactly. Kubica never drove for a top team, but he was still rated as one of the top three drivers.

#136 zack1994

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 23:23

lol the top teams Ferrari and Red Bull weren't interested in free agent Lewis Hamilton when both of them had an opening for 2013
I don't expect them to be more interested in a 30 y/o Lewis after a failed stint at Mercedes
No it's make or break this time just as it turned out to be for Jacques

30 isn't old you know for a formula 1 driver, 35 yes but not 30.

#137 HP

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 23:27

LH/Merc vs. JVi/BAR are really not comparable at some very important points.

It remains to be seen how well Hamilton and Mercedes grow together. If they do and Mercedes steps up a little, there will be no repeat of Hamilton going down the same path as JVi. Especially as LH and Mercedes are not on an ego trip as BAR and JVi were. Plus, BAR and JVi were trying to emulate the Ferrari/MSC dream team.

I'm sorry to say Lewis is looking more and more like a one time champion to me. I just don't see him winning another unless Alonso and Vettel retire as they are far more consistent and just as fast. Unless Merc turn a corner and quickly then I just can't see him being anything more than an odd podium finisher every now and again. I also think Nico will give him a much tougher time than Jenson.

Nico current season wasn't that stellar. He was shown up sometimes by an MSC far away from his prime years. Hamilton will be fine, at the least they will push each other, which will be good for the team.

And even if Hamilton remains a one time WDC, so what? Winning isn't everything. I'm no fan of Hamilton, but I appreciate what he does on the track. F1 would be poorer without him. Also it seems to me that for example Nigel Mansell remains quite popular too, and he's 'only' a one time WDC.




#138 bourbon

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 00:28

Considering how many 0 time WDC F1 drivers there are - some of them truly great - slamming Hamilton on that basis alone is suspect and at best, rather disingenuous. I am not a fan of his driving style and driving behavior, but he is bursting with talent.

#139 Joe Tanto

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 00:45

1.They can both speak Italian.
2. *They can both speak French.
3. ?



*I'm not sure Lewis can speak French.

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#140 Les

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 00:51

X Factor Judges.


Yes my favourite answer so far alongside 'follicly challenged'. Of course true in both cases.

#141 ViMaMo

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:54

Williams is notorious for not bowing to driver demands like a higher salary. And would you expect the same salary after winning the world championship? These drivers have a relatively small lifespan in F1 and I dont blame them if they are after money after certain point of time.

And there is a lot of dissimilarities, first of all JV spent 3 years at Williams while Hamilton will have spent 6 years at Mclaren. That makes it something else. Hamilton has spent a lot of time and there has been a lot of disappointments from both sides, so if they agree to move apart, I dont know what the heck is the problem. Its like some people who are obsessed with the mclaren-hamilton image, this isnt a marriage or a life time contract.

Yes I hate to see a talent like Hamilton with just 1 championship but have a look at Mclaren policy and their mistakes too. He cant go to Ferrari, maybe he can go to Red Bull. The next best is Merc. Would you want him to go to Sauber or Williams with half his present salary? :rolleyes:

Edited by ViMaMo, 01 October 2012 - 02:13.


#142 BMW4life

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:06

Which... is what was said about JV 10-12 years ago as well.

At the end of 01, JV's stock was at least as high as 96/97.


So? :| He clearly was not the real deal... unless you really meant to say that we should wait for things to unfold, you make no real point here.

People say lots of wild stuff... Look how people continue to play down Schumacher's greatness. Look how they continue to pull down vettel. Look how they've hyped up Jenson button.

#143 BMW4life

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:19

That is your subjective opinion, of course. It should worry fans of Lewis that perceptions of a drivers talents and achievements can be so affected by the later circumstances of their career. But it doesn't, obviously.

Would it be impertinent to ask what the 1994 in your name signifies?


Seems you're doing the opposite.... disregard the latter 2/3rds of his career. This isn't like a 40 year old Schumacher coming out of retirement at 40 sort of deal.

Edit:

I tell you what. You're right. I rarely allow my feelings about a driver to cloud my thoughts. I'd say that just happened, to an extent. Did not mean to rubbish JV, but I still don't think he's in Lewis' class. Barrichello made a very impressive impact in his early years, BTW.

JV was hard done by the Pollock-Button coalition, which was sad to see, especially as everybody ignored the fact that his car kept breaking down before he got a chance to show that Jensen was really going for saturday glory.

Regards.

Edited by BMW4life, 01 October 2012 - 02:34.


#144 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:24

On Windtunnel tonight Varsha (sitting in for Despain) and his co-host discussed Hamiltons move to Mercedes. Varsha said the move was "puzzling" and the co-host said that he had two words for Lewis Hamilton, "Jacques Villeneuve!" He went to BAR and disappeared.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 01 October 2012 - 12:54.


#145 akshay380

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:27

That wasn't a move as such, he was simply fired by Renault, and in fact pretty luck to be picked up by team that suddenly jumped from midfield to domination the very next season. In fact, had John Watson not tried to play hardball with Dennis over his salary and thereby delayed negotiations, Prost would have had real difficulties finding a half-competitive seat for 1984.

What if this happens next year with Hamilton and Mercedes? 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 ?

Edited by akshay380, 01 October 2012 - 04:29.


#146 skinnylizard

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:45

there are quite a few parallels, JV was quite the star 96-98 until his move to BAR just like Hamilton and they both had a similar record for their début season.

Mercedes though has a lot more going for it than BAR does especially with Ross Brawn & Co.They have had more running as an F1 team than BAR did and also Merc management has infinitely more experience than BAR which i think initially suffered from hype and possibly mis-management.

JVi tried to do an MS and failed and he stuck it out maybe for loyalty or for money or because he was a part owner I believe.

With Hamilton he can give them two years or three if he so wishes and if he cannot find the form he wants he can always move to another team. He is tremendously marketable and there is no doubt that he is quick. So if Mercedes is not coming good then his escape will be swift and expected.

either way, it should be an interesting challenge.

#147 as65p

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:48

What if this happens next year with Hamilton and Mercedes? 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 ?


Jackpot?  ;)

#148 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:41

They both drove cars 1, 3 and 22.



What bothers me most about these comparison threads in the automatic assumption that Jacques wasn't very good. It's already been mentioned here that JV was very highly rated in the early part of his career. You don't win the Indy 500 and Championship, and the WDC in 3 years by being lucky. Jacques problem was that he spent too long at BAR and effectively threw away a chance of a better career.

Do I think Lewis is better than Jacques was back then? Yes, but not by very much.

#149 Boxerevo

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:36

They both drove cars 1, 3 and 22.

They both have one d... daddy too.

Edited by Boxerevo, 01 October 2012 - 13:36.


#150 gricey1981

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:44

They both drove cars 1, 3 and 22.



What bothers me most about these comparison threads in the automatic assumption that Jacques wasn't very good. It's already been mentioned here that JV was very highly rated in the early part of his career. You don't win the Indy 500 and Championship, and the WDC in 3 years by being lucky. Jacques problem was that he spent too long at BAR and effectively threw away a chance of a better career.

Do I think Lewis is better than Jacques was back then? Yes, but not by very much.


Good point - jacques was very good. The comparisons dont really add up though when you consider Hamilton was a rookie whereas Villeneuve has won the Indy 500 and was Indy champion before he sat in f1. BAR was also brand new when they went, unlike Mercedes.

Even still hes had nearly double the wins and podiums so he has been more successfull before moving.

The only worry is, will doing a Hamilton have entered the vernacular, as Lewis trundles around the nationwide series in 2020 looking for that elusive break into the sprint cup.. Would be a bigger tragedy but hey it might happen.