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Similarities between Hamilton and Villeneuve


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#151 noikeee

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:50

I think the comparison is partially valid, the parallels have been well established here. People belittle Jacques a lot nowadays because he lost a lot of reputation when he was matched by Button in 2002-2003, then was even worse in the few cameo races in 2004 for Renault then for Sauber in 2005 and 2006. However from 1996 to 2001 he was a top driver and recognized by everyone as such. There was a clear top 3: Schumacher, Hakkinen and Villeneuve and they were seen a class above the rest. Much like Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton nowadays (although nowadays there's other champions in Button and Raikkonen who are nearer the top than the fairly uninspiring generation of drivers of then). I don't think Lewis will ever fall off the cliff of performance and reputation so spectacularly as Jacques did, but the point is at the time of the moves the standings of Jacques and Lewis were/are pretty identical.

However when it all falls short is that Jacques left for an utopic project of a brand new team, on top of it with delusions of grandeur he could be partially the team owner. Hamilton is moving to the only serious manufacturer besides Ferrari left in F1, in the right location, with all of the right people, and with a rule change coming up that can only benefit them (new engines). This team has also won recently a championship even if it was a bit of a fluke. It's not anywhere near like BAR 1999. It's not even anywhere near like the defunct Toyota team. It's a midfield team that are lacking performance, granted, but have things in place that give it obvious big potential.

In that sense, people have suggested here it looks more like Schumacher's move to Ferrari in 96 than Villeneuve's move to BAR in 99. I think they're right. It's a challenge, it's a risk, it could go horribly wrong, but time will tell. Myself I would be very surprised if he failed to win a race for Mercedes, and believe he will fight for titles there. Maybe not next year but I would expect it by 2014.

As for escape routes, I think Vettel is going to partner Alonso at Ferrari from 2014, so Red Bull will need a new #1 driver who is not Webber, and unless they show something more, also isn't Ricciardo neither Vergne. They would definitely be interested in Lewis then. However I expect Lewis to be contractually binded to Mercedes and he wouldn't bail out after 1 year anyway, even more so with the rule changes coming. But for 2016 that could happen. I can imagine Raikkonen signing a two year contract with Red Bull for 2014 and 2015...

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#152 senna da silva

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:58

This thread is wishful thinking for the haters.

BAR, brand new team, brand new team principle. The car was designed by Reynard who hadn't a clue how to build an F1 car and who promised he would win his first race.

Mercedes, establisehd team and already won this year. Run by Ross Brawn who knows how to win and backed by the best engine in the biz, Merc have shown they are serious by hiring the best driver in F1.

This is by far the best decision for Lewis.

#153 Fox1

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 14:23

This thread is wishful thinking for the haters.

BAR, brand new team, brand new team principle. The car was designed by Reynard who hadn't a clue how to build an F1 car and who promised he would win his first race.

Mercedes, establisehd team and already won this year. Run by Ross Brawn who knows how to win and backed by the best engine in the biz, Merc have shown they are serious by hiring the best driver in F1.

This is by far the best decision for Lewis.

+1 and a logical post by noikeee.

Many people don't want him to succeed at MB-AMG so they downplay the positives and advantages of his move. There's always going to be risk; both in staying with McLaren or leaving for Mercedes. I for one wish him the best and think he'll be very successful with Mercedes and much sooner than many people expect.

Edited by Fox1, 01 October 2012 - 16:14.


#154 blackmme

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 14:39

I was trying to think of others too. The move of Prost from Renault to McLaren for 1984 was, on the face of it, a downward move based on 1983 standings but worked out very well. He wasn't a WDC by then, of course.


This cropped up on Friday these are the ones I could think of.

"Hmmm seemed to work out ok in the long run for Fangio back in 54, Stewart in 67, Fittipaldi in 73, Piquet in 85, Prost in 83 (bit of a stretch that one as he didn't have a lot of choice), Schumi in 95. Just off the top of my head."

Regards Mike

#155 kpchelsea

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 15:16

Up to about 2001, yes. What offers did he have when BAR dropped him at the end of 2003?

I think JV's stock dropped once his teammates started beating him, Button being the first who's own career had somewhat stalled at that point, then spells against the likes of Massa and Heidfeld did'nt really show he had anything extra special to bring to the table, the sort of things i wouldn't expect to happen to Hamilton, not in the prime of his career

#156 kpchelsea

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 15:28

i would be very surprised if nico defeated lewis. there`s no comparison to jenson imo.

Not if going by the last time they were teammates, i aprreciate karts are somewhat different

I have this bad feeling that in 2-3 years time Lewis will regret this decision and his career will in fact follow the path set by JV. He is obviously more talented, but still, I don't think this is a good move at all by him.
Hopefully I am wrong and his obvious talent will not go to waste.

So long as he always shows he's quicker than his teammates, JV couldn't do this

#157 garoidb

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 17:17

I think JV's stock dropped once his teammates started beating him, Button being the first who's own career had somewhat stalled at that point, then spells against the likes of Massa and Heidfeld did'nt really show he had anything extra special to bring to the table, the sort of things i wouldn't expect to happen to Hamilton, not in the prime of his career


I suppose Button's quality was not fully appreciated then. Being dropped by BAR and having no other opportunity for 2004 really killed his career. Was that all down to being beaten by Button over one season?

He was 34 by the start of the 2005 season, out of a top team and paired with a fast driver ten years younger (Massa). By then, I would have to agree, he was not a top driver. He squandered four or five of his (potentially) best years at BAR.

#158 DriveFastLiveSlow

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:37

I think JV's stock dropped once his teammates started beating him, Button being the first who's own career had somewhat stalled at that point, then spells against the likes of Massa and Heidfeld did'nt really show he had anything extra special to bring to the table, the sort of things i wouldn't expect to happen to Hamilton, not in the prime of his career


Maybe there's an analogy here to Lewis? First Button, then Rosberg?

Just saying nothing is impossible in F1.

Edited by DriveFastLiveSlow, 02 October 2012 - 05:38.


#159 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:59

What is BAR and who is Villeneuve?

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#160 Xpat

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 17:54

What is BAR and who is Villeneuve?


Read the thread! They're roughly analogous to Mercedes and Hamilton.

#161 garoidb

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 18:33

What is BAR and who is Villeneuve?


Perhaps this is what they will ask about Hamilton in 14 years time?

#162 SR388

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 18:45

Perhaps this is what they will ask about Hamilton in 14 years time?


Wrong. People still know who JV is.

If people don't know who he is, then they probably don't know about Damon Hill.

#163 P123

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 18:45

Perhaps this is what they will ask about Hamilton in 14 years time?


Perhaps. But I'm sure you won't.

#164 ayali

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:16

What is BAR and who is Villeneuve?

BAR is where you get to go once you've grown up dude, there you can talk to real people about F1 whilst enjoying a beer.
The Villeneuves you don't need to know about, old school real racers, probably not your cup of tea.

What are the odds Lewis will record an album in the 3 years he sits in the Mercedes?



#165 SR388

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:19

BAR is where you get to go once you've grown up dude, there you can talk to real people about F1 whilst enjoying a beer.
The Villeneuves you don't need to know about, old school real racers, probably not your cup of tea.

What are the odds Lewis will record an album in the 3 years he sits in the Mercedes?



Villeneuve at least waited to record an album, after he retired.

#166 encircled

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:21

BAR is where you get to go once you've grown up dude, there you can talk to real people about F1 whilst enjoying a beer.
The Villeneuves you don't need to know about, old school real racers, probably not your cup of tea.

What are the odds Lewis will record an album in the 3 years he sits in the Mercedes?

Maybe Jaime Alguersuari can give Lewis some advice on that

#167 PinkZepStones

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:21

Perhaps this is what they will ask about Hamilton in 14 years time?



When you moan that this forum or Hamilton fans or whatnot seem to give you a bum deal, remember the type of posts you produce.

Im gonna go out on a limb here and bet youll say" oh stop being a drama queen it was a genuine question"


Unfortunately for you you arent as sly as most bashers, Hamilton has been the talk of F1 from March 2007 to the present for good and bad, nobody will forget that anytime in the distant future.

#168 Claudiu

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:38

There are zero similarities between them.

#169 tommi34

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 19:43

Both of them won one championship on their career, and the title was won in a year when the level of competition was poor and top drivers did a lot of mistakes.

#170 garoidb

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:06

When you moan that this forum or Hamilton fans or whatnot seem to give you a bum deal, remember the type of posts you produce.

Im gonna go out on a limb here and bet youll say" oh stop being a drama queen it was a genuine question"


The post I responded to was not a genuine question.

The parallels with Villeneuve's career are obvious. A lot of people do not like that, but that is not my problem.

#171 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 20:57

Perhaps this is what they will ask about Hamilton in 14 years time?

:lol:
He is imbedded in too deep in a LOT of peoples minds and am not talking about his fans.

#172 fieraku

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 21:00

BAR is where you get to go once you've grown up dude, there you can talk to real people about F1 whilst enjoying a beer.
The Villeneuves you don't need to know about, old school real racers, probably not your cup of tea.

What are the odds Lewis will record an album in the 3 years he sits in the Mercedes?

I hate tea,but anyway thanks for the enlightenment.

#173 Eff One 2002

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:18

They're a completely different driver as well.


I wouldn't say that. They are both true racer's racers and hard chargers that give it all they have and aren't afraid to make moves that are risky and may not come off.

#174 Cool Beans

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:22

Posted Image

Jacques Villeneuve:
Hello ladies. Look at Lewis Hamilton, now back to me. Now back to Lewis Hamilton, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me. But if he switched to a shit team for a large sum of money he could be me. Look down, back up. Where are you? You're in your living room, watching Lewis battle for 8th position in a shit Mercedes. What's in your hand? I have it, it's tickets to that 2015 Silverstone GP you like. Look again, the tickets are now in the trash because Mercedes pulled out and the only seats available are even shittier than the Mercedes. Anything is possible when your manager also manages the Spice girls and Jennifer Lopez. I lost my hair.


Edited by beancounter, 03 October 2012 - 03:25.


#175 FigJam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:13

:lol: man there is some funny shit in this thread, both good and bad. You spend some time off the forum and nothing changes...

Villeneuve and Hamilton. We've seen this comparison before obviously, bottom line is they both share certain career charecteristics. I don't see Lewis' Mercedes move as similar to Jacques BAR move...for one Mercedes are a works team led by Ross Brawn. BAR was led by Pollock (who cops far too much of the blame) and Reynard (tool) whilst Malcolm Oastler, the less said the better...

Jacques had the dream, after 2 great years results wise at Williams and 3 in total where he was rightly ranked with MS and MH. Jacques wanted a team built around him, a team full of fun and ego where he could swagger round the pitlane, huge salary falling out of his pockets, and drive the wheels off whatever shitbox BAR handed him. Which, lets be honest, he did brilliantly for 3 years until things began to turn real sour. Pollock getting fired started it...his skills and fire in the belly diminished as a result of 4 years busting his arse to get near a pole or podium...and then Dave Richards finished it. That's the short version, anything else is pointless now...

However...one thing everyone forgets very conveniently is that Jacques had a situation at BAR which bordered on the ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact (and his stubborness to relent) that it basically shut him out of every other top team on the grid. That is, whilst being paid a huge salary (partly deserved because of his standing and achievements) he also did not have to do any PR work, he hardly did much work other than driving on a GP weekend (not readily available to sponsors etc) and his whole agenda was suited, to a tee, for his lifestyle. In other words, at BAR, he called the shots. He was paid handsomely by BAT purely for his risk in joining the team, his standing in F1 at the time...and that's it.

Obviously his image and name helped BAT sales and, in the first 3 years, Jacques was reminiscent of his father...driving the wheels off pure garbage. So much so Flavio wanted him at Renault and McLaren was always sniffing around. Yet without JV dropping his charades with PR work and being a rebel, Ron wasn't accomodating.

You could spend all day discussing JV's downfall...but I feel this is important to raise and something constantly overlooked. FWIW I remember reading something where years ago, the McLaren duo (Hakkinen and DC) were doing something like 100 days plus of PR work a year...

JV?? 3 apparantly...

#176 garoidb

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:29

:lol: man there is some funny shit in this thread, both good and bad. You spend some time off the forum and nothing changes...

Villeneuve and Hamilton. We've seen this comparison before obviously, bottom line is they both share certain career charecteristics. I don't see Lewis' Mercedes move as similar to Jacques BAR move...for one Mercedes are a works team led by Ross Brawn. BAR was led by Pollock (who cops far too much of the blame) and Reynard (tool) whilst Malcolm Oastler, the less said the better...

Jacques had the dream, after 2 great years results wise at Williams and 3 in total where he was rightly ranked with MS and MH. Jacques wanted a team built around him, a team full of fun and ego where he could swagger round the pitlane, huge salary falling out of his pockets, and drive the wheels off whatever shitbox BAR handed him. Which, lets be honest, he did brilliantly for 3 years until things began to turn real sour. Pollock getting fired started it...his skills and fire in the belly diminished as a result of 4 years busting his arse to get near a pole or podium...and then Dave Richards finished it. That's the short version, anything else is pointless now...

However...one thing everyone forgets very conveniently is that Jacques had a situation at BAR which bordered on the ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact (and his stubborness to relent) that it basically shut him out of every other top team on the grid. That is, whilst being paid a huge salary (partly deserved because of his standing and achievements) he also did not have to do any PR work, he hardly did much work other than driving on a GP weekend (not readily available to sponsors etc) and his whole agenda was suited, to a tee, for his lifestyle. In other words, at BAR, he called the shots. He was paid handsomely by BAT purely for his risk in joining the team, his standing in F1 at the time...and that's it.

Obviously his image and name helped BAT sales and, in the first 3 years, Jacques was reminiscent of his father...driving the wheels off pure garbage. So much so Flavio wanted him at Renault and McLaren was always sniffing around. Yet without JV dropping his charades with PR work and being a rebel, Ron wasn't accomodating.

You could spend all day discussing JV's downfall...but I feel this is important to raise and something constantly overlooked. FWIW I remember reading something where years ago, the McLaren duo (Hakkinen and DC) were doing something like 100 days plus of PR work a year...

JV?? 3 apparantly...


Interesting point. For context, does anyone know what the PR load for Hamilton has been like at McLaren and whether it will be reduced at Mercedes? It is probably too early yet to know the approximate number of days for Mercede, I suppose.

Edited by garoidb, 03 October 2012 - 07:30.


#177 ayali

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:31

Interesting point. For context, does anyone know what the PR load for Hamilton has been like at McLaren and whether it will be reduced at Mercedes? It is probably too early yet to know the approximate number of days for Mercede, I suppose.

The wish for a small PR workload is indeed an interesting similarity between Jacques and Lewis.
Anyone remember last year when Lewis was complaining before the UK GP about the amount of PR work and how McLaren would be shocked how much he would want that reduced in his new contract?

Now Nico and Michael have done their fair share of PR and demos I have the impression, so it would be interesting to see how much Lewis will have to do and how it compares with McLaren.
Surely companies like Mercedes want PR revenues for the millions they pay him.

What also seems at odds is his alleged greater commercial freedom at Mercedes and his desire to do less PR.
Surely personal sponsors want more than just their logo on the overall/helmet and it's exactly with these kind of sponsor deals that agencies like XIX make big bucks.

Me thinks more commercial freedom = more PR work

#178 FigJam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:21

Interesting point. For context, does anyone know what the PR load for Hamilton has been like at McLaren and whether it will be reduced at Mercedes? It is probably too early yet to know the approximate number of days for Mercede, I suppose.


Not sure...but I'd definetly like to know what McLaren expect of Hamilton. I'd say it would be significant.

The comparison of Jacques and Lewis is valid, moreso for career charecteristics than a talent comparison (At their peaks, I have them on par) but I'm not saying Hamilton is after a similar scenario. Just pointing out what Jacques had actually created around him for the less informed. :)

You see, while Villeneuve was performing like one of the 3 best drivers in the world, he could get away with it. Once he started to taper off though (and the politics got out of control) his reputation was ruined and teams didn't want to touch him.

$20 million plus per year to have a team pander to your every need and basically no PR work/limited work on GP weekends = Gold. That was Jacques and BAR.

Edited by FigJam, 03 October 2012 - 09:24.


#179 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:31

The PR load is much higher at McLaren. Even JB said he'd done more PR days pre-season in 2010 than the entire year in 2009 (but obviously Mercedes would have more days than Brawn).

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#180 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:42

:lol: man there is some funny shit in this thread, both good and bad. You spend some time off the forum and nothing changes...

Villeneuve and Hamilton. We've seen this comparison before obviously, bottom line is they both share certain career charecteristics. I don't see Lewis' Mercedes move as similar to Jacques BAR move...for one Mercedes are a works team led by Ross Brawn. BAR was led by Pollock (who cops far too much of the blame) and Reynard (tool) whilst Malcolm Oastler, the less said the better...

Jacques had the dream, after 2 great years results wise at Williams and 3 in total where he was rightly ranked with MS and MH. Jacques wanted a team built around him, a team full of fun and ego where he could swagger round the pitlane, huge salary falling out of his pockets, and drive the wheels off whatever shitbox BAR handed him. Which, lets be honest, he did brilliantly for 3 years until things began to turn real sour. Pollock getting fired started it...his skills and fire in the belly diminished as a result of 4 years busting his arse to get near a pole or podium...and then Dave Richards finished it. That's the short version, anything else is pointless now...

However...one thing everyone forgets very conveniently is that Jacques had a situation at BAR which bordered on the ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact (and his stubborness to relent) that it basically shut him out of every other top team on the grid. That is, whilst being paid a huge salary (partly deserved because of his standing and achievements) he also did not have to do any PR work, he hardly did much work other than driving on a GP weekend (not readily available to sponsors etc) and his whole agenda was suited, to a tee, for his lifestyle. In other words, at BAR, he called the shots. He was paid handsomely by BAT purely for his risk in joining the team, his standing in F1 at the time...and that's it.

Obviously his image and name helped BAT sales and, in the first 3 years, Jacques was reminiscent of his father...driving the wheels off pure garbage. So much so Flavio wanted him at Renault and McLaren was always sniffing around. Yet without JV dropping his charades with PR work and being a rebel, Ron wasn't accomodating.

You could spend all day discussing JV's downfall...but I feel this is important to raise and something constantly overlooked. FWIW I remember reading something where years ago, the McLaren duo (Hakkinen and DC) were doing something like 100 days plus of PR work a year...

JV?? 3 apparantly...



Not sure...but I'd definetly like to know what McLaren expect of Hamilton. I'd say it would be significant.

The comparison of Jacques and Lewis is valid, moreso for career charecteristics than a talent comparison (At their peaks, I have them on par) but I'm not saying Hamilton is after a similar scenario. Just pointing out what Jacques had actually created around him for the less informed. :)

You see, while Villeneuve was performing like one of the 3 best drivers in the world, he could get away with it. Once he started to taper off though (and the politics got out of control) his reputation was ruined and teams didn't want to touch him.

$20 million plus per year to have a team pander to your every need and basically no PR work/limited work on GP weekends = Gold. That was Jacques and BAR.

:up:
Two top posts which I think were much needed in this thread. A lot of people, both fans as well as detractors of Lewis Hamilton seem to think that Jacques was just an average driver who somehow lucked into a championship in 1997 and then went downhill. Thus any comparison with JV is supposed to be "insulting" to Lewis Hamilton.

The true fact for anyone who actually watched F1 at the time was that Jacques was quite clearly one of the best drivers on the grid. There were rumours that he was being pursued by Ferrari but he did not join for the reasons mention in your posts above. He was a tremendous talent and on his day more than a match for the likes of Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher.

Such a pity, it looks like some of the younger members out here just have one look at the results and choose to categorize an entire career based on the numbers. JV was no ordinary/average/lucky driver, he was one of F1's best in his time. Maybe he overstayed his welcome after 2003ish, but the talent was on display for the world to see.

#181 FigJam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:40

:up: Sparkplug

Jacques had his detractors (like anyone does) and his weaknesses but, overall in his prime, he was one of the 3 best drivers in the world. One thing that's always bugged me is Jacques should have been sitting in a McLaren, in place of DC, taking on Hakkinen from 1998 onwards. At that stage BAR was already more than just a pipedream but JV was right in his prime. There should have been 3 way fights for the title up till end of 2001 but the F1 public never saw MS/MH/JV...even Damon Hill...all in title capable cars at one time.

It's one major reason I believe history underrates that era of drivers. Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton is now what Schumacher/Hakkinen/Villeneuve was then.

Still though Jacques was the master of his own destiny and, racing aside, he made things mighty hard for himself in the paddock. There was no sympathy forthcoming when the shit hit the fan in 2003. Then it was over.

Far too many years in very poor machinery took its toll (As comparison, Hamilton wouldn't have a clue what a bad car is) but Jacques in full flight had many similarities to LH, not to mention his revered father Gilles.

#182 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:57

They have some similarities but one difference in that Villeneuve was a much better driver than Hamilton is or will ever will be. You can give statistics as to why Hamilton is better but in reality Villeneuve was better in his prime.

#183 Gareth

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:13

:up:
Two top posts which I think were much needed in this thread. A lot of people, both fans as well as detractors of Lewis Hamilton seem to think that Jacques was just an average driver who somehow lucked into a championship in 1997 and then went downhill. Thus any comparison with JV is supposed to be "insulting" to Lewis Hamilton.

The true fact for anyone who actually watched F1 at the time was that Jacques was quite clearly one of the best drivers on the grid. There were rumours that he was being pursued by Ferrari but he did not join for the reasons mention in your posts above. He was a tremendous talent and on his day more than a match for the likes of Mika Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher.

Such a pity, it looks like some of the younger members out here just have one look at the results and choose to categorize an entire career based on the numbers. JV was no ordinary/average/lucky driver, he was one of F1's best in his time. Maybe he overstayed his welcome after 2003ish, but the talent was on display for the world to see.

As a big Hamilton, have to say I agree with a lot of what you say.

At this point in their career, the comparisons are obvious. One WDC, a potentially risky career move. That comparison isn't insulting to Hamilton either, IMO. Whilst I was no JV fan, there's no doubt he was a good driver.

If by the end of his career the comparison remains valid, I have to say I will be disapponted. Not because I think JV wasn't a good driver, being considered in his class is an impressive achievement for someone in F1. But because: 1. I think Hamilton has the potential to be a better driver than JV - if he doesn't exceed that level, he will have had a good career but not the one I think he could have had; and 2. the JV story is really one of a wasted second half of a career in F1, and I hope that doesn't happen for Hamilton.

#184 Slowinfastout

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:19

Like I said on page 1, some people seem to have the misconception that the only thing good JV ever did was at Williams..

http://en.wikipedia....mula_One_season

That was one hell of a season, and the team was on its second year of existence. Then in 2001 there was even a couple of podiums but more DNFs, lack of consistency, and after that it went seriously downhill..

2002 is the year that killed JV as a driver, BAT was growing impatient, Pollock (a grade A wanker, but partial to JV) was replaced by Richards (another grade A wanker) and the latter eventually forced JV off his own team. It was essentially a new team again as Prodrive took charge and the transition was anything but smooth.

I doubt Hamilton will have to face any of that.. Simon Fuller isn't going to be the team boss (thank gawd), I don't see Mercedes putting the same kind of unhealthy pressure as BAT did, the management isn't made out of grade A wankers (Fry maybe, but he doesn't have the clout to do much harm) and Nico Rosberg is an established driver, so the dynamic will be much different than when JV was paired with Zonta. Hamilton arrives, but there is a lot of continuity elsewhere in the team which is much different than creating a new team, twice.

So basically there may be some parallels between JV and Hamilton, but when you explore the details it becomes clear how hellishly different the situations really are..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 03 October 2012 - 11:35.


#185 Alcibiades

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:19

They have some similarities but one difference in that Villeneuve was a much better driver than Hamilton is or will ever will be. You can give statistics as to why Hamilton is better but in reality Villeneuve was better in his prime.


You might think so but most would disagree, including me. I remember watching Villeneuve and he was good but I always thought he lacked that something extra. Just an opinion obviously. All the top people in F1 think that Hamilton is one of the two/three top drivers of recent years and arguably the best. I don't presume to know better than them.

Your use of the phrase 'much better' shows I think that you just don't like Hamilton.



#186 FigJam

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:47

One things for sure...you can't compare them statistics wise (which I'm sure many do) when Jacques spent a total of 2 years in front running machinery. Lewis is up to how many years now??

BAR were never better than 4th/5th in the WCC (with JV driving the wheels off it) and worse for much of it. Hamilton is likely to have, at worst, the 4th/5th car on the grid and potentially better (hopefully for him!).

Chalk and Cheese with what JV had to race with. By the way I'm assuming LH will be working with Jock Clear in some capacity next season?

Edited by FigJam, 03 October 2012 - 11:58.


#187 Eff One 2002

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:57

:lol: man there is some funny shit in this thread, both good and bad. You spend some time off the forum and nothing changes...

Villeneuve and Hamilton. We've seen this comparison before obviously, bottom line is they both share certain career charecteristics. I don't see Lewis' Mercedes move as similar to Jacques BAR move...for one Mercedes are a works team led by Ross Brawn. BAR was led by Pollock (who cops far too much of the blame) and Reynard (tool) whilst Malcolm Oastler, the less said the better...

Jacques had the dream, after 2 great years results wise at Williams and 3 in total where he was rightly ranked with MS and MH. Jacques wanted a team built around him, a team full of fun and ego where he could swagger round the pitlane, huge salary falling out of his pockets, and drive the wheels off whatever shitbox BAR handed him. Which, lets be honest, he did brilliantly for 3 years until things began to turn real sour. Pollock getting fired started it...his skills and fire in the belly diminished as a result of 4 years busting his arse to get near a pole or podium...and then Dave Richards finished it. That's the short version, anything else is pointless now...

However...one thing everyone forgets very conveniently is that Jacques had a situation at BAR which bordered on the ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact (and his stubborness to relent) that it basically shut him out of every other top team on the grid. That is, whilst being paid a huge salary (partly deserved because of his standing and achievements) he also did not have to do any PR work, he hardly did much work other than driving on a GP weekend (not readily available to sponsors etc) and his whole agenda was suited, to a tee, for his lifestyle. In other words, at BAR, he called the shots. He was paid handsomely by BAT purely for his risk in joining the team, his standing in F1 at the time...and that's it.

Obviously his image and name helped BAT sales and, in the first 3 years, Jacques was reminiscent of his father...driving the wheels off pure garbage. So much so Flavio wanted him at Renault and McLaren was always sniffing around. Yet without JV dropping his charades with PR work and being a rebel, Ron wasn't accomodating.

You could spend all day discussing JV's downfall...but I feel this is important to raise and something constantly overlooked. FWIW I remember reading something where years ago, the McLaren duo (Hakkinen and DC) were doing something like 100 days plus of PR work a year...

JV?? 3 apparantly...


Well said and 100% true as usual... :up: