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Who will get the chance at Ferrari?


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Poll: Who will get the chance at Ferrari? (360 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will get the chance at Ferrari?

  1. Felipe Massa (160 votes [44.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.44%

  2. Paul di Resta (26 votes [7.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.22%

  3. Nico Hülkenberg (67 votes [18.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.61%

  4. Michael Schumacher (85 votes [23.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.61%

  5. Kimi Raikkönen (16 votes [4.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.44%

  6. Jules Bianchi (6 votes [1.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.67%

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#201 Slowinfastout

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 19:02

My understanding is that Ferrari possibly has some form of option on Vettel, and vice-versa... and if that's the case it would be important for Ferrari not to sign someone else long-term and effectively void that option.

I still think the more likely scenario is that Vettel will eventually stay at Red Bull, but it does seem to affect Ferrari in the meantime.

Personally I think that if Perez was good enough for McLaren, then he's good enough for Ferrari, so there's definitely something funky going on there..

It'll be interesting to see if the guy they choose will really be on a 1 year contract, but I guess they'll be pretty desperate to hide it if that's the case.

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#202 Mauseri

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:57

My understanding is that Ferrari possibly has some form of option on Vettel, and vice-versa... and if that's the case it would be important for Ferrari not to sign someone else long-term and effectively void that option.

I still think the more likely scenario is that Vettel will eventually stay at Red Bull, but it does seem to affect Ferrari in the meantime.

Personally I think that if Perez was good enough for McLaren, then he's good enough for Ferrari, so there's definitely something funky going on there..

It'll be interesting to see if the guy they choose will really be on a 1 year contract, but I guess they'll be pretty desperate to hide it if that's the case.

Could it be that they would use the Vettel option only if Alonso decides to walk away after winning/failing to win 2xWDC more? Just in case? If I was Vettel, I would not think it is necessary to find a top car from same team as Alonso.

#203 Oho

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:47

Could it be that they would use the Vettel option only if Alonso decides to walk away after winning/failing to win 2xWDC more? Just in case? If I was Vettel, I would not think it is necessary to find a top car from same team as Alonso.

If they have an option I very much doubt it is strong enough to force Vettel's hand, more akin to an agreement where if Vettel leaves he leaves for Ferrari.

#204 sawyer_si

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:20

I'd be very curious to know if they can access Sauber data like it's an open book, it would be a good question for a journo to ask.. that's for Perez but in general I would be curious to know the degree of access with any of the various technical or driver development partnerships.

Perez was in simulator at Maranello quite a lot and he also drove F60 I believe. I don't believe that Ferrari has a direct access to Sauber's telemetry, but they have enough of their own data to justify their decision. I think that either Perez wasn't quick enough or Ferrari has someone better lined up in near future. Not necessarily Vettel, maybe they are waiting for Binachi to fill that seat...

#205 schumimercamg

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:32

Perez was in simulator at Maranello quite a lot and he also drove F60 I believe. I don't believe that Ferrari has a direct access to Sauber's telemetry, but they have enough of their own data to justify their decision. I think that either Perez wasn't quick enough or Ferrari has someone better lined up in near future. Not necessarily Vettel, maybe they are waiting for Binachi to fill that seat...



There is no way on Gods earth that Bianchi is quicker/better than Perez.

#206 Massa

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:35

There is no way on Gods earth that Bianchi is quicker/better than Perez.



http://www.f1zone.ne...r-return/16000/

Autosprint magazine claims that Ferrari did not actually rate the 22-year-old Mexican overly highly, after Jules Bianchi went almost half a second faster in their most recent head-to-head test last September.




#207 William Hunt

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:04

There is no way on Gods earth that Bianchi is quicker/better than Perez.


How do you know? I actually rate Bianchi as the biggest talent not having an F1 seat (together with Frijns & Calado)

#208 Vesuvius

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:17

There is no way on Gods earth that Bianchi is quicker/better than Perez.


How do you know? Just because Perez has gotten three podiums with fantastic sauber car doesn't make him quicker than Bianchi...besides those three podiums Perez hardly achieved nothing and is driving on similar level with Kobayashi (getting beaten in qualifyings) and Kobayashi was only as fast as De La Rosa who is really not that fast driver these days.

#209 aditya-now

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:37

How do you know? Just because Perez has gotten three podiums with fantastic sauber car doesn't make him quicker than Bianchi...besides those three podiums Perez hardly achieved nothing and is driving on similar level with Kobayashi (getting beaten in qualifyings) and Kobayashi was only as fast as De La Rosa who is really not that fast driver these days.


We don't know what Bianchi would have done in that Sauber...

#210 Ze Bum

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:57

Actually Kovalainen could be just what Ferrari needs. He's a freak qualifier who could get lots of poles for Ferrari, but he would still not beat Alonso in races. He could slow Alonso's competitors in the beginning of races before fading like he usually does.


#211 Babak

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:13

Whoever takes Massa's seat, including himself, will prove his worth when the time comes, but now that we're talking about it, I wonder why Luca thinks Perez is not ready yet. Every other available driver, except for Kimi, have proven themselves less capable than Perez. So we'll wait and see if Perez or the 2nd Ferrari driver will prove to be the better choice overall. I'm inclined to think Perez is the best choice among them (Apart from Kimi ofcourse)

#212 muramasa

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:17

Kobayashi was only as fast as De La Rosa who is really not that fast driver these days.

totally inaccurate. Kobayashi was clearly faster and better. And PDLR is no slouch. That's what some people here get wrong, hugely.

Those who dismiss or trash PDLR dont seem to notice or remember he was not so far off Kimi when he replaced Montoya emergently in the middle of 2006. Those very same people somehow tend to miss or ignore conveniently that Hulk was comprehensively beaten by Rubens in the team he was groomed and supported, that di Resta was as good as Sutil who was well beaten by Fisi (and those two are as good as each other in FI at least for this season).




#213 emby1999

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:16

totally inaccurate. Kobayashi was clearly faster and better. And PDLR is no slouch. That's what some people here get wrong, hugely.

Those who dismiss or trash PDLR dont seem to notice or remember he was not so far off Kimi when he replaced Montoya emergently in the middle of 2006. Those very same people somehow tend to miss or ignore conveniently that Hulk was comprehensively beaten by Rubens in the team he was groomed and supported, that di Resta was as good as Sutil who was well beaten by Fisi (and those two are as good as each other in FI at least for this season).


Pedro beat him in qualifying didn't he?

If you can't dominate a 39 year old test driver who had not been an active driver for 8 years, then you are not a quality F1 driver. Perez has done nothing special in the sport, so I can understand why Ferrari did not take him. If you have been impressed with Perez then you probably have not been following the sport very long, because 3 podiums in a good strong car is nothing exceptional, he certainly has not looked any better than Fisichella did in 1997 as a rookie when he scored a fantastic second at Spa in the wet, or fought for race victory at Monza that same year. His performances have been about as good as the likes of Fisichella and Rubens in their early years. Good and steady.

Edited by emby1999, 05 October 2012 - 07:17.


#214 FigJam

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:13

Since it won't be Hamilton (why is it we never get the heavyweight title fight/intra team battle we fans crave???) I really couldn't care less.

That includes when Vettel takes the seat in 2014.

#215 goldenboy

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:17

starting to thin hulk will take a gamble on a year only with ferrari then hope for a jump to red bull in a switcheroo for 2012.. If of course vet goes to ferrari. Otherwise could see him being quite a good number 2 to alonso for a few years.

Edited by goldenboy, 05 October 2012 - 09:18.


#216 superdelphinus

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:32

Is he not a bit late for 2012?

#217 Anderis

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:08

Pedro beat him in qualifying didn't he?

If you can't dominate a 39 year old test driver who had not been an active driver for 8 years, then you are not a quality F1 driver. Perez has done nothing special in the sport, so I can understand why Ferrari did not take him. If you have been impressed with Perez then you probably have not been following the sport very long, because 3 podiums in a good strong car is nothing exceptional, he certainly has not looked any better than Fisichella did in 1997 as a rookie when he scored a fantastic second at Spa in the wet, or fought for race victory at Monza that same year. His performances have been about as good as the likes of Fisichella and Rubens in their early years. Good and steady.

You're right IMHO.

Many people say that Kobayashi has no luck this year, especially compared to Perez. It's quite the opposite to 2010 year, when he was very lucky several times, with de la Rosa being one of the most unluckiest on the grid. They were pretty matched that year, but the points are saying otherwise. No wonder why if you look at the races like Valencia. Kobayashi was slower than de la Rosa throughout the earlier part of the weekend, but he has benefited from different strategy and SC at the best possible moment for him. If that SC didn't happen, Kobayashi was likely to finish last bar the new teams.
In some races Kamui was actually quicker than de la Rosa, but there were many races when the opposite thing has happened, but Pedro never had luck to translate his pace into the points.

#218 muramasa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:47

Pedro beat him in qualifying didn't he?

why dont you say that exact same thing to Perez then. Dont use "beat in race", "beat in quali" thing conveniently to suit your agenda.

If you can't dominate a 39 year old test driver who had not been an active driver for 8 years, then you are not a quality F1 driver.

again, this particular remark can be applied to Kimi in 2006, as i mentioned already.

dont know the difinition of "dominate", but in the race Kamui always was better, more than clearly.

Perez has done nothing special in the sport,

woah, what more can a driver do? Some drivers are rated strangely high despite doing nothing special. How unfair people's opinion can be.

so I can understand why Ferrari did not take him. If you have been impressed with Perez then you probably have not been following the sport very long, because 3 podiums in a good strong car is nothing exceptional, he certainly has not looked any better than Fisichella did in 1997 as a rookie when he scored a fantastic second at Spa in the wet, or fought for race victory at Monza that same year. His performances have been about as good as the likes of Fisichella and Rubens in their early years. Good and steady.

Say that to Vettel, Kimi etc too.
I repeatedly said all Perez's podiums are due to him being only one on particular and best strategy, but that's NO WAY meant to dismiss his performance, but to "explain" it.
He delivered. What more do you want?

And sauber car strong car? Go watch Hungary, Singapore etc.



#219 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:59

totally inaccurate. Kobayashi was clearly faster and better. And PDLR is no slouch. That's what some people here get wrong, hugely.

Those who dismiss or trash PDLR dont seem to notice or remember he was not so far off Kimi when he replaced Montoya emergently in the middle of 2006. Those very same people somehow tend to miss or ignore conveniently that Hulk was comprehensively beaten by Rubens in the team he was groomed and supported, that di Resta was as good as Sutil who was well beaten by Fisi (and those two are as good as each other in FI at least for this season).


Kobayashi vs De La Rosa qualifying battle was 7-6 for koba, races 6-3 and fastest laps 6-7

De La Rosa was miles behind Kimi 2006 in quali, qualifying battles 8-0 for Kimi (pedro usually over 0,5 seconds slower than Kimi) races 5-3 ( kimi three retirements from ahead of De La Rosa)nd fastest laps 4-4.

Time differences in qualifyings between Kimi vs De La Rosa clearly shows Kimi dominated him:
France Kimi ahead -0,349 seconds
Germany -1,9 seconds
Hungary -0,518 s.
Turkey - 0,695 s.
Italy -0,796 s.
China -0,123s
Japan -0,427 s.
Brazil -0,272 s.


I agree with Hulkenberg,Di Resta for not being so great...Hulkenberg was clearly slower than Barrichello when we compare what Maldonado did against Rubens. Di Resta has been as fast as Hulkenberg and Sutil and Sutil was clearly slower than Fisi.

Edited by Vesuvius, 05 October 2012 - 11:08.


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#220 muramasa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:09

Many people say that Kobayashi has no luck this year, especially compared to Perez.

yes coz it's fact.

quote my old post:

OZ
his rear wing flap was damaged at T1 of opening lap and was flipfloping for whole race

Malaysia
his rear damper was slowly failing from in the middle of FP3. Team could identify the problem only because he kept insisting sth was defo wrong with rear suspension for several hours after Quali.
In the race, he asked for wet tyres on lap 3 or so but team ordered him to stay out (eventually pitting lap 9 or so). When it was drying up, he asked for dry tyres earlier but again team ordered him to stay out. Eventually his brake failed and had to retire.

China
good quali. But during support race on sunday morning, a car put oil patch exactly on his starting position, which hindered his start apparently.

Spain
his Q2 best lap was set with right rear tyre (iirc) being sprayed with leaking oil from his car. Without which he wouldve started from better position and might have finished higher.

Monaco
taken off at St devote several sec after the start. Also, he insisted different tyre choice for Quali than team's recommendation. and it turned out that his choice seemed to be correct.

Canada
stuck behind Kimi and di Resta for long time at critical point of the race, which cost him 15sec at minimum. Plus team changed strategy from 2 stopper to 1 stopper in the middle of the race. SS>S 1 stopper was the strategy that was meant to fail in the first place. Plus, before the race, he insisted 1 stopper strongly, same as his teammate's, but the team denied it.

also the team gave slow 1st pitstop at Valencia, 1st corner incident at Spa, etc

Besides above, he had minor bad lucks here and there, like slow pitstop (like 8sec instead of 5), questioning strategic call (earlier than planned pitstop despite his good pace), all resulted in lost position and time at critical timing.

Also races like Barcelona and Germany, he had to stuck behind slower car for many laps despite having pace and good strategy. Kamui just is without luck, almost miracle-esque.

note that I'm not remembering them all nor catching them all.


It's quite the opposite to 2010 year, when he was very lucky several times, with de la Rosa being one of the most unluckiest on the grid.

No not really. his strategies in 2010 at most made it even, compensating then-Sauber-car's-serious-problem of not being able to pursue/prioritize Quali performance, rather than propel him forward.
also you talk as if F1 2010 was same as F1 2012. 2010's F1 race was quite different to current one. Team hierachy was alot more fixed at all tracks throughout season, the impact and effect of different strategy wasnt as big/significant as it is now, etc etc.

They were pretty matched that year, but the points are saying otherwise.

if you had looked at it closely, you'd find otherwise.

No wonder why if you look at the races like Valencia. Kobayashi was slower than de la Rosa throughout the earlier part of the weekend, but he has benefited from different strategy and SC at the best possible moment for him. If that SC didn't happen, Kobayashi was likely to finish last bar the new teams.

If you really do look at Valencia, you should notice Kobayashi's pace was very strong, that's why Button couldnt overtake him, couldnt had even one realistic chance to do so, and there was no "train" formed behind him. He was even setting then fastest times. And that was done with tyres 10 laps or so older than others.

In some races Kamui was actually quicker than de la Rosa, but there were many races when the opposite thing has happened, but Pedro never had luck to translate his pace into the points.

Totally inaccurate. Most race Kamui was obviously quicker.
Both Sauber was unlucky particularly early season in 2010, DNFs due to mechanical failure and being crashed into by others. but overall neither was particularly less lucky than other.
You must not remember or pay attention but Kamui had many fantastic races in 2010, like GB, HUN, JP, KOR, BRA etc, just offhand.




#221 emby1999

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:13

why dont you say that exact same thing to Perez then. Dont use "beat in race", "beat in quali" thing conveniently to suit your agenda.


Qualifying is the best measure of speed. Thats my agenda. Lots of things can happen in races to blur the picture.

again, this particular remark can be applied to Kimi in 2006, as i mentioned already.


You are right it can be applied, and 6 months later Kimi went to Ferrari and started being outpaced by Felipe Massa.

woah, what more can a driver do? Some drivers are rated strangely high despite doing nothing special. How unfair people's opinion can be.


Consistently outpace his team mate by a large margin. Fisichella used to that consistently before he joined Renault, and against far better drivers than koybashi.

And sauber car strong car? Go watch Hungary, Singapore etc.


Easy to pick the worst races. What about monza and Spa, maylaysia?

#222 muramasa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:23

Kobayashi vs De La Rosa qualifying battle was 7-6 for koba, races 6-3 and fastest laps 6-7

De La Rosa was miles behind Kimi 2006 in quali, qualifying battles 8-0 for Kimi (pedro usually over 0,5 seconds slower than Kimi) races 5-3 ( kimi three retirements from ahead of De La Rosa)nd fastest laps 4-4.

Time differences in qualifyings between Kimi vs De La Rosa clearly shows Kimi dominated him:
France Kimi ahead -0,349 seconds
Germany -1,9 seconds
Hungary -0,518 s.
Turkey - 0,695 s.
Italy -0,796 s.
China -0,123s
Japan -0,427 s.
Brazil -0,272 s.


I agree with Hulkenberg,Di Resta for not being so great...Hulkenberg was clearly slower than Barrichello when we compare what Maldonado did against Rubens. Di Resta has been as fast as Hulkenberg and Sutil and Sutil was clearly slower than Fisi.

Go read my post again, I said PDLR wasnt so far off Kimi, I meant PDLR is no slouch, Not to mean Kimi didnt dominate. Apart from Germany and Italy, PDLR, who filled Montoya's shoes in emergency, wasnt bad at all, both in quali and race overall, considering how good Kimi was proven to be. (Fisi in 2009 was off Kimi more than PDLR, but I dont think such comparison is relevant.)



#223 BillBald

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:47

Actually Kovalainen could be just what Ferrari needs. He's a freak qualifier who could get lots of poles for Ferrari, but he would still not beat Alonso in races. He could slow Alonso's competitors in the beginning of races before fading like he usually does.


A cunning plan.

But how would Alonso feel if Kovy outqualified him, and especially if he was a little bit reluctant to get out of his way in the race?



#224 Massa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:04

Kobayashi vs De La Rosa qualifying battle was 7-6 for koba, races 6-3 and fastest laps 6-7

De La Rosa was miles behind Kimi 2006 in quali, qualifying battles 8-0 for Kimi (pedro usually over 0,5 seconds slower than Kimi) races 5-3 ( kimi three retirements from ahead of De La Rosa)nd fastest laps 4-4.

Time differences in qualifyings between Kimi vs De La Rosa clearly shows Kimi dominated him:
France Kimi ahead -0,349 seconds
Germany -1,9 seconds
Hungary -0,518 s.
Turkey - 0,695 s.
Italy -0,796 s.
China -0,123s
Japan -0,427 s.
Brazil -0,272 s.


I agree with Hulkenberg,Di Resta for not being so great...Hulkenberg was clearly slower than Barrichello when we compare what Maldonado did against Rubens. Di Resta has been as fast as Hulkenberg and Sutil and Sutil was clearly slower than Fisi.


It's because Barrichello was very poor in 2011.


#225 apoka

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:14

Hulkenberg:
"There is talks with this team [Force India]. There is still a chance that I will race here, but I think with the movement that there has been last week, things happened."

http://www.planetf1....ings-can-happen

This could mean that Ferrari also wanted to sign Perez (well, he would be the obvious choice as academy driver), but are now considering other drivers including Hulkenberg.

On the other hand, Alguersuari announced that he would be in F1 quite a while ago, whereas Hulkenberg still says that his future is undecided (but we know that drivers are often not allowed to announce contracts).

#226 AlainProstX

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 13:38

Easy to pick the worst races. What about monza and Spa, maylaysia?


Perez came in 2nd in Monza and Malaysia, in Spa both Sauber cars were taken out after promising qualifying results.

#227 marcoferrari

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 14:30

Whoever takes Massa's seat, including himself, will prove his worth when the time comes, but now that we're talking about it, I wonder why Luca thinks Perez is not ready yet. Every other available driver, except for Kimi, have proven themselves less capable than Perez. So we'll wait and see if Perez or the 2nd Ferrari driver will prove to be the better choice overall. I'm inclined to think Perez is the best choice among them (Apart from Kimi ofcourse)


During his Ferrari days, he was struggling to beat Massa on a constant basis, so you can write him off, too...

#228 FenderJaguar

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 18:42

During his Ferrari days, he was struggling to beat Massa on a constant basis, so you can write him off, too...


West Germany lost to Algeria in the World Cup in 1982 so why do anyone ever fear Germany in a World Cup? I just don't understand it.

#229 scheivlak

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 22:23

Qualifying is the best measure of speed. Thats my agenda. Lots of things can happen in races to blur the picture.

:rotfl:

#230 mich

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:33

This question is very simple. Who is the best 2nd driver of Alonso, who is favorite of Alonso.
The answer is limited to Massa, Kobayashi, kovalainen and Force India duo.

I think Perez was not favorite of Alonso because Perez who brought much Mexican money claimed big treatment as a 1st driver in Sauber.
For example, experienced mechanic staffs of Kobayashi were transferred to Perez at 2012.
Such a driver is a big threat for Alonso, like Hamilton 2007.
It's not too late for ferrari to get him after Perez beating Button or Alonso retiring.

Vettel in Redbull, Button in Mclaren, Raikkonen in Lotus don't want to be a 2nd driver of Alonso, and also Alonso doesn't want a champion teammate.
Webber and Rosberg are good choices for Ferrari. They have much experience and results. But for them, it's a better option to challenge championship fighting Vettel or Hamilton as a teammate than Alonso.

Massa has good experience as a 2nd driver of Alonso but not consistent. Ferrari wants him to get much more point at least half of Alonso and 2nd place of constructors' championship but he didn't.
On the other hands, Kobayashi, kovalainen and Force India duo will be a good 2nd and more consistent than Massa.

I think now Ferrari is watching who is the best 2nd.

#231 Anderis

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:16

if you had looked at it closely, you'd find otherwise.

I had looked at it closely and didn't find otherwise

Bahrain: De la Rosa qualified better. Kamui had better start, but then Pedro was lapping slightly faster and had caught and overtaken him before Kamui retired.
Australia: De la Rosa outqualified Kamui again. Race gave no comparison as Kamui retired on lap 1.
Malaysia: Kamui had qualified better, Pedro didn't participate in the race due to engine problem
China: Kamui had qualified better, but retired after 1st lap crash.
Spain: Kamui seemed quicker although de la Rosa retired early due to car damage after collision with Buemi
Monaco: Pedro had qualified better and had been maintaining slight lead over Kamui to the moment when he retired due to engine problems.
Turkey: Kamui had qualified better, Pedro caught him at the end of the race and finished less than one second behind him,
Canada: Pedro had outqualified Kamui who retired at the beginning of the race after his own mistake.
Europe: This is the famous race when Pedro had outqualified Kamui and was leading him in the race before SC period allowed Kamui to shine due to different strategy than majority of other drivers.
Great Britain: Pedro had qualified higher again. Kobayashi got better start and was maintaining his lead over Pedro, who clearly was able to keep simillar pace to him, though, before his incident with Sutil.
Germany: Kamui had qualified better. Pedro was maintaining good race pace on different strategy. With 9 laps to go he was only 2 seconds behind Kobayashi and had much fresher tyres. Had a good chance of outracing Kamui, but had a contact with Kovalainen who was being lapped by him.
Hungary: Pedro had outqualified Kamui by 9 positions. In the race de la Rosa finished higher but with a small margin, considering the difference in grid positions. (probably SC had quite a lot to do with it)
Belgium: In qualifying Kamui set better time but both went out of the circuit on their decisive laps and were dropped after Q1. In race Kamui finished higher, but Pedro had 2 pit stops more.
Italy: Kamui qualified much better but has not finished any single lap in the race due to problems with car.

For me, de la Rosa was at least a match for Kamui in Bahrain, Australia, Monaco, Turkey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Hungary. That's 8 out of 14 races he was clearly comparable or better. Add Valencia, where Pedro was outpacing Kamui before SC appeared, Belgium, where circumstanced make it almost impossible to compare, you got only 4 weekends when Kamui was clearly over de la Rosa, without the big help of the circumstances. And those 4 weekends were almost all down to qualifying, cause poor Sauber's reliability made it impossible to compare the race pace in all of them!

If you really do look at Valencia, you should notice Kobayashi's pace was very strong, that's why Button couldnt overtake him, couldnt had even one realistic chance to do so, and there was no "train" formed behind him. He was even setting then fastest times. And that was done with tyres 10 laps or so older than others.

I agree that Kobayashi performed very well since SC had appeared. But he was lucky that SC had appeared at the very good time for him. If not this, he was likely to finish last bar new teams, and without any doubt he wouldn't have finished it in points.

Totally inaccurate. Most race Kamui was obviously quicker.
Both Sauber was unlucky particularly early season in 2010, DNFs due to mechanical failure and being crashed into by others. but overall neither was particularly less lucky than other.
You must not remember or pay attention but Kamui had many fantastic races in 2010, like GB, HUN, JP, KOR, BRA etc, just offhand.

As I have written earlier, after looking at qualifying times and lap times charts from races, I cannot agree that most of the races Kamui was obviously quicker. The only obvious thing in this is that circumstances made it really hard to compare them (there were so many races when at least one of them retired very quickly), but when there was a possibility to compare them anyhow, they had often comparable pace and even when not, Pedro was quicker than Kamui about as many times as the opposite.
And this is why I can't agree Pedro wasn't less lucky than Kamui. For me they were performing at the very simillar level, while Kamui scored much more points.

I remember that season very well. After impressive end of the 2009 season with Toyota, I expected Kamui to trash Pedro and wished him that. I was quite surprised to see that de la Rosa being a match for him for the most of the time. Then Kamui came with couple of point-scoring finishes exactly when he needed, while de la Rosa suffered his portion of bad luck and people remembered those few occassions when Kamui shined over many times when Pedro was a match for him.

No not really. his strategies in 2010 at most made it even, compensating then-Sauber-car's-serious-problem of not being able to pursue/prioritize Quali performance, rather than propel him forward.
also you talk as if F1 2010 was same as F1 2012. 2010's F1 race was quite different to current one. Team hierachy was alot more fixed at all tracks throughout season, the impact and effect of different strategy wasnt as big/significant as it is now, etc etc.

Maybe the impact of the strategy wasn't as big as nowadays, but still was significant.
I remember Pedro keeping Kamui's pace in Great Britain (well, not really remember, just checked it :) ) and first lost about 2-3 seconds to Kamui due to later pit stop, and then being hit by Sutil.
I also remember Valencia, where Pedro was set to finish in front of Kamui and then SC gave Kobayashi an occassion to shine.
2 the best of Kamui's performances from the time he was paired with de la Rosa came at the circuits when he was unable to clearly outpace Pedro before strategy/good luck/bad luck of Pedro came with help to him, while de la Rosa didn't have any single race when he outscored Kamui by 6 or 8 points in simillar circumstances. Name it whatever you want, I'm convinced Kobayashi wasn't that all over de la Rosa as some people suggest, he got bigger point advantage and impression advantage over de la Rosa than the merit of their relative performances.

#232 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:44

If Massa gets another podium, I think he´ll keep the seat. He's favoured by Alonso and that is something Ferrari keeps in mind. OTOH, if Alonso does not win the WDC this year, Ferrari might be more willing to give him a tougher teammate than Massa.

#233 nmik

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:41

And before Silverstone he had only scored 11 points. Some people have longer memories and can see beyond the last few races.



Aren't we discussing the total for the year? Each race result counts, regardless of where during the season it falls.