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driverless cars to hit california ( sorry!)


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#2001 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 21:28

The law/insurance industry has already resolved the similar issues involved in vehicles using those notoriously dangerous explosive chemicals 'petrol', 'diesel', and 'LPG'.  Of all the issues around autonomous/EV.vehicles, I would rate insurance as minor/trivial.

 

There are issues to be resolved, but many of the objections voiced here are of the 'the sky is falling' variety.  

Given that no actuarial tables exist for fully autonomous cars, I would suggest that the premiums will be pretty high until such statistics have been established.



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#2002 GreenMachine

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 23:17

Possibly.  Maybe there will be a specialised niche, a la 'enthusiast/modified' vehicles, where AV/EV vehicles will be addressed.  Or maybe the insurers will say, 'ho hum, pretty much business as usual, we'll tweak this and this, that should do it'.

 

Legal issues will be more complex for AVs, insofar as the operation of the software algorithms and the sensors are concerned, but in principle little different to a manufacturers' liability for the safe operation of an ICE vehicle now.



#2003 Greg Locock

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 01:20

According to the most boring document I read this year, the detailed specs on the SAE classification of AVs, the crucial difference between L2 and L3 is that for L3, when the system is engaged, the car is the legal driver.L0,1,2 the human is the driver. Tesla have written to the Californian government saying that FSD beta will never be more than L2, whatever that weird guy tweets.



#2004 GreenMachine

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 03:15

The SAE may say that, but you can't sue the car.  The courts will have the final say on where that demarcation lies, but it will be between the owner/'driver' of the car, and the manufacturer, possibly also involving a service provider (maps?), maintenance facility, etc. depending on what went wrong.

 

Greg, is the SAE springboarding off the status quo, where the human is the default, and 'the car' is a placeholder for some yet-to-be-decided legal entity, or are they assigning the vehicle a de facto legal status?



#2005 BRG

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 11:02

Now we have this.  Some say that you can fool your Tesla into driving itself with no-one in the driver's seat.  Others - mainly Musk - say you can't.  Who to believe?  The guy with a massive financial stake int he game, or some consumer affairs reporters?

 

For an amateur, Musk has quickly learnt the (I'm not to) blame game.  Is the Corvair unsafe at any speed?  No, mate, it's fine.  Does the Pinto explode if you rear-end it?  No buddy, it's fine.  Does your diesel car belch out far more emissions than you have claimed.  Nein, nein, alles is gut.


Edited by BRG, 23 April 2021 - 11:02.


#2006 Canuck

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 17:51

Now we have this.  Some say that you can fool your Tesla into driving itself with no-one in the driver's seat. 

No doubt the car can be hacked. I'm surprised something as simple as the weight sensor that shuts off the air bag when a kid (or very small adult) is in the front passenger seat isn't used as a qualifier for self-driving. But then we've know it will self-drive when empty as you can "summon" the car to come to you in a parking lot. Why he would say that it can't, when it clearly can is nonsense.



#2007 Greg Locock

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 00:17

Several big OEMs have accepted liability for L3 and above. That is, you won't be suing the car, you'll be suing the manufacturer. i can't wait for the charming argument that on average you were safer in your L5, but you are just one of the unlucky ones.  The more I read up on this the further away L5 seems to get.



#2008 Greg Locock

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 01:17

I don't know if anyone posted this, cue the copycats

 

https://www.consumer...n-drivers-seat/



#2009 Canuck

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 14:21

I imagine Tesla can push down a software update that includes the weight on seat sensor in pretty short order. But this is like blaming a regular manufacturer for allowing cruise to operate without a driver. Individuals will always be capable of manipulating things in ways the manufacturer hadn’t intended.

#2010 GreenMachine

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 20:24

And that is a theme I have been harping on forever.  Human factors is a subject that does not seem to be on the radar.  :rolleyes:



#2011 Canuck

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 20:40

How does it differ whether it’s a Tesla or a Toyota?

#2012 GreenMachine

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 21:50

How does it differ whether it’s a Tesla or a Toyota?

 

Was that directed at me Canuck?  If so not sure I fully understand what you are getting at, but in general, it doesn't.  To elaborate, I'd like to have some more context.



#2013 NRoshier

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 03:47

I imagine Tesla can push down a software update that includes the weight on seat sensor in pretty short order. But this is like blaming a regular manufacturer for allowing cruise to operate without a driver. Individuals will always be capable of manipulating things in ways the manufacturer hadn’t intended.

I have to admit I am a little surprised the tech was so easily bypassed. My 'new' Subaru scan may face when I get in, says hello and then chastises me if it thinks I'm not paying enough attention - for some reason I thought the Tesla would be much more advanced that this Subaru, but then that's the marketing effect. All of the lane keeping, auto front/rear braking etc is a step on the path to autonomy.


Edited by NRoshier, 25 April 2021 - 03:48.


#2014 gruntguru

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Posted 26 April 2021 - 05:06

How does it differ whether it’s a Tesla or a Toyota?

 

Was that directed at me Canuck?  If so not sure I fully understand what you are getting at, but in general, it doesn't.  To elaborate, I'd like to have some more context.

 

News Flash. It seems most Toyotas will stay in "cruise control" mode when the driver decides to climb across to the passenger seat.

 

The NRA have asked Toyota to recall all vehicles fitted with cruise control. Bump stocks however remain a 2nd amendment right - guns don't kill - people kill.


Edited by gruntguru, 27 April 2021 - 04:03.


#2015 Canuck

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Posted 26 April 2021 - 05:29

Stocks. Bump stocks. And they aren’t but left-leaning individuals love to paint American gun owners as blood-thirsty, god-invoking racists but this is not the forum.

Green - I was responding not to you but from your statement. “They” seem to be gleefully rubbing their grubby fingers together at every Tesla incident while both ignoring the current state of every other maker’s track record and knitting together narratives that are one-sided, misleading, biased and ridiculous. Not unlike so many other people with an axe to grind.

I never cease to be amazed at the close-minded self-righteousness of all political stripes.

#2016 gruntguru

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 04:05

Stocks. Bump stocks. . . 

 

My bad - thanks Canuck.



#2017 gruntguru

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 04:09

 . . . but left-leaning individuals love to paint American gun owners as blood-thirsty, god-invoking racists but this is not the forum. . .   

 

 . . and only mentioned in case any gun-loving Tesla basher is reading this forum.



#2018 Canuck

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 15:52

What if I'm a gun-loving Tesla lover?



#2019 desmo

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 02:14

I'm sure there are plenty of those here in the US.



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#2020 Kelpiecross

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 06:42

  I hate to damage my extreme Right-Wing image - but why on earth would any sane person want top go out into the Bush and kill animals.  I am not talking about farmers trying to keep animals from eating the cabbages (or whatever) but people who hunt "for enjoyment".  Having known a few "sporting shooters"  I have found that they also just about always have other serious flaws - such as criminal behaviour and especially odd sexual tendencies.  And don't give me the usual crap about  "helping to control feral animals etc."  - I have worked with these people and are almost invariably lazy bastards who wouldn't walk 50 paces to help a workmate and yet are happy to drive 500 miles to "help the farmers" by killing the local wildlife.  



#2021 Canuck

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 14:38

You...should re-evaluate who you're spending your time with. They sound like some pretty unsavory characters, but then it is Australia I suppose.



#2022 BRG

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 18:23

Armageddon is almost upon us.....https://www.gov.uk/g...les-on-uk-roads



#2023 gruntguru

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 21:00

Armageddon is almost upon us.....https://www.gov.uk/g...les-on-uk-roads

 

 

 

will be limited to speeds of up to 37mph on motorways

 

That should be popular.



#2024 GreenMachine

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 21:30

Pretty limited Armageddon.  Self driving in a mobile car park, hardly revolutionary, more creeping incrementalism.



#2025 Kelpiecross

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Posted 29 April 2021 - 04:38

You...should re-evaluate who you're spending your time with. They sound like some pretty unsavory characters, but then it is Australia I suppose.

 

 I assume you see yourself described here?   A true heroic "sporting shooter"?   



#2026 Canuck

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Posted 29 April 2021 - 14:28

You shouldn't assume things. I mean foremost of all I'm not in Britain's Island prison colony. It is interesting that you're up on the sexual appetites of your co-workers though perhaps co-workers means something different down there.



#2027 Nemo1965

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Posted 29 April 2021 - 17:21

What if I'm a gun-loving Tesla lover?

 

Haha. How did Robin Williams describe someone like that? 'A compassionate conservative. I don't know what that is, it sounds like a Volvo with a gun rack.'

 

Yours is the compassionate conservative 2.0! 


Edited by Nemo1965, 29 April 2021 - 17:22.


#2028 Kelpiecross

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 05:46

You shouldn't assume things. I mean foremost of all I'm not in Britain's Island prison colony. It is interesting that you're up on the sexual appetites of your co-workers though perhaps co-workers means something different down there.

 

 We might all be convicts - but all Canadians are Poofs.  



#2029 Canuck

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 15:03

Oh my heart, my ego, my manliness! Your school-boy insult has reduced me to a puddle of emotional quivering, tears streaming down my face as I repeatedly clench my tiny effeminate fists before flailing them ineffectually against your big manly chest.

 

We primarily hunt to eat, our merry band of Poofs. We sashay into the forest in our designer silk camo to find an appropriate moose, elk or deer to fill the freezer. Using only the finest knives from Italian designers, we field dress our kill to keep it from spoiling the meat, then whine and complain about how hard it is and how unfair it is that we have to carry and/or drag (oh but we do love drag darling) back to the lusciously purple pickup so we can get it to the butcher. While we wait for the butcher, we go back home and paint each other's nails and wax each other's...well, you know.



#2030 gruntguru

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 23:14

 . . . I know - back, crack, sack etc. So painful.

 

I sometimes wish I wasn't a poof.



#2031 Kelpiecross

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 05:23

Oh my heart, my ego, my manliness! Your school-boy insult has reduced me to a puddle of emotional quivering, tears streaming down my face as I repeatedly clench my tiny effeminate fists before flailing them ineffectually against your big manly chest.

 

We primarily hunt to eat, our merry band of Poofs. We sashay into the forest in our designer silk camo to find an appropriate moose, elk or deer to fill the freezer. Using only the finest knives from Italian designers, we field dress our kill to keep it from spoiling the meat, then whine and complain about how hard it is and how unfair it is that we have to carry and/or drag (oh but we do love drag darling) back to the lusciously purple pickup so we can get it to the butcher. While we wait for the butcher, we go back home and paint each other's nails and wax each other's...well, you know.

 

  So it is true - I suspected as much. But, I have to admit - a nicely written and entertaining reply.     



#2032 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 May 2021 - 10:22

What if I'm a gun-loving Tesla lover?


Is Tesla working on electric firearms?

In fact, has anyone considered the carbon footprint of the US from firearm discharge alone?

#2033 Canuck

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Posted 06 May 2021 - 14:51

To your first question, I give you Musk's firearm. I imagine it's got an electric igniter in there somewhere.

elon-musk-flamethrower.jpg?quality=90&st



#2034 mariner

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 07:02

https://www.bbc.co.u...nology-63077437

 

 

Interesting commetns



#2035 BRG

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:09

Jeez, aren't the streets of SF dangerous enough already, what with street cars and Steve McQueen chasing people up and down the hills?



#2036 desmo

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 14:04

This of course has controversially been going on in Phoenix for quite a while. Last time I spent time in SF last year the city was crawling with Waymo cars apparently mapping the city and generally gathering data, although these all had driver/passengers at the ready. SF seems like a good development arena for self-driving because of its many challenges. My thought watching the Waymo hordes in SF was that if Google could make it work there, they could probably make it work in any western city not in a snowstorm.



#2037 BRG

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 16:25

The Waymo cars in Phoenix are impressive but still a long way from perfect.  

 

I cannot imagine the chaos if they tried to run them in London, let alone somewhere like Rome.



#2038 Magoo

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 17:55

Impressive. This will happen faster than I imagined. 



#2039 Zoe

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 19:15

 

I cannot imagine the chaos if they tried to run them in London, let alone somewhere like Rome.

The 6-lane roundabout at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris :)



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#2040 Magoo

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 20:47

You can see how autonomous vehicles would be a lot easier without all the crazy humans on the street.



#2041 GreenMachine

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 20:58

This thread probably should be merged with https://forums.autos...riverless +cars



#2042 desmo

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 14:01

This thread probably should be merged with https://forums.autos...riverless +cars

Good idea, done.