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Vettel reprimanded for Alonso incident [split]


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#251 garoidb

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:22

Where the heck was Seb supposed to go? To the right and really destroy Freddie's lap - stop altogether that his Holiness had the entire lap to himself?


how about go faster?


Yes.

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#252 Nonesuch

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:24

Where the heck was Seb supposed to go?

Forward. The easiest way to prevent blocking other drivers is to not drive significantly slower than them.

Edited by Nonesuch, 06 October 2012 - 13:24.


#253 Burtros

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:30

Oh do shut up please. That's old, boring and not based in reality.


Denials of it are not based in reality I am afraid.

Im not one for conspiracy theories but time and time and time again, Ferrari get decisions for them that others simply wouldnt. Call it what you will, but for me Ferrari International Assistance is a term I have been using for something like 7 years now. I saw someone mention Alonso causes the penalties - thats wrong. Alonso got some stinging penalties when he was racing for Renault against Ferrari. Italy 2006 being the most ridicuous among them. Theres only one common beneficary - Ferrari.

I havent seen what happened here, but it seems clear there was some risk of the ugly bias again. Its a legitimate fear, although in this case it does look like its been dealt with in the appropriate way.

I missed the forum debate as I was abroad on holiday for Monza this year, watched in a bar without commentary. But I can tell you, on the face of it the Vettel penalty there sums up perfectly for me what other teams face when dealing with a Ferrari on track.

Edited by Burtros, 06 October 2012 - 13:32.


#254 dau

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:36

The yellow flag obviously clouds the picture, but Alonso was only a tenth away from Perez, so it arguably cost him a place. And again, ignorance of what is happening behind him is no excuse. You said it yourself, he blocked him.

Yes, he did. And he got a reprimand for it. I don't think he could've complained about a 3-place grid drop like Vergne got, but a reprimand seems appropriate as well.

#255 H2H

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:38

Wasn't too bad tbh, didn't cost Alonso much if anything - reprimand probably a fair call. But it does show one thing however, that Alonso kept his cool and didn't start waving his hands about and acting like a **** like Senna did, which probably cost Bruno getting through to Q2 more than Vergne did...


Indeed, a reprimand at most. This kind of thread reminds me why I do not visit this forum more often. So many whiners and so many calls for penalties that one does wonder what this sport has become.

Alonso did well to keep his cool and we were spared a repeat of his behavior at Monza or Buttons calls at Singapore. The list could go on and on with so many other drives. All in all whining has become a standard response to almost everything midly doubtful. But how can blame you the drivers and teams if they lose nothing but a bit of respect in trying?



#256 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 14:22

Denials of it are not based in reality I am afraid.

Im not one for conspiracy theories but time and time and time again, Ferrari get decisions for them that others simply wouldnt. Call it what you will, but for me Ferrari International Assistance is a term I have been using for something like 7 years now. I saw someone mention Alonso causes the penalties - thats wrong. Alonso got some stinging penalties when he was racing for Renault against Ferrari. Italy 2006 being the most ridicuous among them. Theres only one common beneficary - Ferrari.

I havent seen what happened here, but it seems clear there was some risk of the ugly bias again. Its a legitimate fear, although in this case it does look like its been dealt with in the appropriate way.

I missed the forum debate as I was abroad on holiday for Monza this year, watched in a bar without commentary. But I can tell you, on the face of it the Vettel penalty there sums up perfectly for me what other teams face when dealing with a Ferrari on track.

Vettel could easily have got a penalty for the situation, so if the FIA are favouring Ferrari why did he only get a reprimand ? Ten years ago I could believe that Ferrari were favoured, but so many decisions have gone against them these days that the idea is far fetched.


#257 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 14:35

Indeed, a reprimand at most. This kind of thread reminds me why I do not visit this forum more often. So many whiners and so many calls for penalties that one does wonder what this sport has become.


Actually in this thread there were hardly any. Even the Alonso fans in the majority are saying a reprimand is ok.

#258 BunnyK

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:10

HPT is right. After watching the video it's clear to me that what happened is Vettel was caught out on Alonso coming up to him, he probably thought he was far enough ahead or didn't know he was there. By the time he realised it was too late to pull to the left or suddenly slow down. What he ended up doing was in the end the correct decision and it wasn't really much of a block like some other ones we saw.

There is however no excuse to not be aware of other cars and your team should let you know as well, which is why they were reprimanded.

:up:

But that really affects laptime, once you're braking if you move the wheel and change direction, even slightly, you have to lift brake so you lose time, if Vettel was in his inlap then the easiest is to brake as if you were on a hotlap, but running wider, as it was a chicane it was harder to take the right choice. Cars should go faster in their in/outlaps, I know it's meant to save fuel, but it's not the first time it happens.

#259 sharo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:15

They don't save fuel now but rather save tyres. There was a rule introduced several years back about a minimum delta time to keep when on a return lap. When they qualified with full tanks and IIRC it was Malaysia GP which prompted the change. Don't know whether it's still active.


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#260 BunnyK

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:17

They don't save fuel now but rather save tyres. There was a rule introduced several years back about a minimum delta time to keep when on a return lap. When they qualified with full tanks and IIRC it was Malaysia GP which prompted the change. Don't know whether it's still active.

True, but remember qualifying with the least amount of fuel makes a difference.

#261 bourbon

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 16:18

how about go faster?


You have to take the yellow flag conditions into consideration - especially in light of the tyre situation and what both have traditionally meant in terms of qualifying this season. We can ignore that, but apparently the stewards took note of it.


Edited by bourbon, 06 October 2012 - 16:19.


#262 garoidb

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 16:35

You have to take the yellow flag conditions into consideration - especially in light of the tyre situation and what both have traditionally meant in terms of qualifying this season. We can ignore that, but apparently the stewards took note of it.


He wasn't under yellow flag conditions at that point of the track.

PS: I am not calling for a penalty, but Vettel should not have been there, obstructing laps at the very end of Q3. He deserves the reprimand.

#263 ali.unal

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 17:02

AUTOSPORT: Drivers call for tighter chicane guidelines

Drivers such as Paul di Resta, di Resta, Paul and of course PDR... oh wait?

#264 apoka

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 17:14

Taking a tighter line and braking earlier than he wanted to... I'd say it cost him half a second.

Unlikely. The best S3 time of Alonso was 17.767 (which was right in that lap despite Vettel impeding him according to other posters). The best S3 time of all drivers was 17.602 (Vettel). I do not think he could have done this sector that much faster than all others (especially if you look how close all cars are in that sector).

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7100&p=3


#265 ANF

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:36

Unlikely. The best S3 time of Alonso was 17.767 (which was right in that lap despite Vettel impeding him according to other posters). The best S3 time of all drivers was 17.602 (Vettel). I do not think he could have done this sector that much faster than all others (especially if you look how close all cars are in that sector).

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7100&p=3

Are you sure his best sector time was set on that lap? (It could be from Q1 or Q2.) If he really did a 17.7 on that lap, then you're absolutely right. :)

#266 sock22

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:48

Yes, he did. And he got a reprimand for it. I don't think he could've complained about a 3-place grid drop like Vergne got, but a reprimand seems appropriate as well.

My only question was the inconsistency, but I have since seen that the stewards deemed it less severe than Vergne's, hence the lighter penalty. Thinking about it, Vergne was fairly lucky to get away with a 3-place penalty, as it's usually 5 and his was quite a severe block that ruined Senna's lap on the soft tyres. But hey, what's done is done. I'm not asking for draconian penalties, just consistency in the stewarding.

#267 Bartel

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 20:17

As someone has said, had that been Leeis, he would have copped a penalty. It was blatant, results fixing at its finest. They should just let Vettel change his gearbox without penalty too cos he'd somehow gain no advantage.

#268 prty

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 20:54

Logically, if the yellows ruined his lap times more, shouldn't Kimi be penalized?


Come on, try to be at least funny :)

#269 ensign14

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:34

Come on, try to be at least funny :)

Logic isn't always funny. :|

#270 F.M.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:40

Are you sure his best sector time was set on that lap? (It could be from Q1 or Q2.) If he really did a 17.7 on that lap, then you're absolutely right. :)

Alonso had a green 17.7 on his Q3 lap, so yes, that would be the 17.767.

Considering he was always going to lose some time in that sector because of his lower speed on the straight leading to 130R (yellow flags in the corner before -> lower corner exit speed), he never lost more than a few hundreds of a seconds because of Vettel. Far from enough to gain a place on the grid

#271 EvanRainer

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:47

As someone has said, had that been Leeis, he would have copped a penalty. It was blatant, results fixing at its finest. They should just let Vettel change his gearbox without penalty too cos he'd somehow gain no advantage.


Oh please. What's the last time Hamilton even got a penalty?

#272 prty

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 21:52

Logic isn't always funny. :|


You are not applying logic there :cry:


#273 Bartel

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:14

Oh please. What's the last time Hamilton even got a penalty?

Sent to the back of the grid for being short on fuel? Why not a 5 place grid drop...10 place even, Yet red bull blatantly broke rules in germany and didnt even get penalised. Please, when it comes to lewis/mclaren the axe is wielded swiftly and powerfully, when it comes to red bull they always get off light.

#274 EvanRainer

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:26

Yes poor Lewis always unfairly penalised and RBR has never been penalised this season :rolleyes:

Keep creating myths if it makes you feel better.

#275 ANF

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:38

Alonso had a green 17.7 on his Q3 lap, so yes, that would be the 17.767.

Considering he was always going to lose some time in that sector because of his lower speed on the straight leading to 130R (yellow flags in the corner before -> lower corner exit speed), he never lost more than a few hundreds of a seconds because of Vettel. Far from enough to gain a place on the grid

Thanks for confirming that. I stand corrected. :up:

I thought Alonso looked very slow from the onboard. After all, he has carried a lot of speed into the chicane this weekend and really attacked the kerb. It suprises me that he still managed a 17.7.

#276 sailor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 22:43

Thanks for confirming that. I stand corrected. :up:

I thought Alonso looked very slow from the onboard. After all, he has carried a lot of speed into the chicane this weekend and really attacked the kerb. It suprises me that he still managed a 17.7.


If Vettel wasnt there , he probably would have overshot the corner !

#277 black magic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 23:23

lets be honest.

if it were michael all hell to pay - nice boy seb and whilst technically he did get in the way as harsh as it may have been lets let him go. lets ignore that a 10 grid slot kills your next race or that a 5 grid penalty took away a monaco pole - because seb was the fastest and hes the one we have to let him off.

fia wants a new hero and seb has been appointed.

#278 bourbon

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:08

lets be honest.

if it were michael all hell to pay - nice boy seb and whilst technically he did get in the way as harsh as it may have been lets let him go. lets ignore that a 10 grid slot kills your next race or that a 5 grid penalty took away a monaco pole - because seb was the fastest and hes the one we have to let him off.

fia wants a new hero and seb has been appointed.


Seb got those 34 Poles of his own merit - if he is considered a hero for that, so be it. But FIA didn't give him even one of those - they were all hard earned in an truly amazing effort by a 25 year old with just on 5 years under his belt in the sport.

In fact, he has broken nearly every important record in the sport, so I find it a bit disingenuous to call him "appointed" - as if those records and accolades were sent to him via DHL by the FIA. Those records are his due to his tremendous talent, determination and effort on his part. It is always car + driver in equal parts, imo, but the team and crew does not create the driver...

#279 JimiKart

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:57

Seb got those 34 Poles of his own merit - if he is considered a hero for that, so be it. But FIA didn't give him even one of those - they were all hard earned in an truly amazing effort by a 25 year old with just on 5 years under his belt in the sport.

In fact, he has broken nearly every important record in the sport, so I find it a bit disingenuous to call him "appointed" - as if those records and accolades were sent to him via DHL by the FIA. Those records are his due to his tremendous talent, determination and effort on his part. It is always car + driver in equal parts, imo, but the team and crew does not create the driver...


Perhaps you'd better think about that a little harder and consider a revision to your theory - there's been a lot of test-passing-flexi-areo-devices built into the RB and they might have also made a contribution.

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#280 goldenboy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:02

Perhaps you'd better think about that a little harder and consider a revision to your theory - there's been a lot of test-passing-flexi-areo-devices built into the RB and they might have also made a contribution.

you can say all the others high on pole lists had car advantages also though.

Was there problems like this last year also? If not, what has changed????

#281 Nitropower

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:21

The only thing I know is Vettel already had pole position and he and Red Bull knew it. He went out, what for? Only one slow lap, no time set, what for? Be a moving chicane. Nothing else. Impede a direct rival in the championship. It reminds me of a certaing parking lot at La Rascasse, only more cleverly disguised this time. No matter how you look at it he impeded another driver, slowed him down, made him lose around 0,3-0,4 seconds and 2-3 places in the grid, yet he got away with it with "a reprimand" while Vergne got a 3-place grid penalty and Hamilton has been getting tones of penalties for all kind of things. If it was Maldonado or Grosjean I can imagine what would've happened.

Edited by Nitropower, 07 October 2012 - 02:25.


#282 goldenboy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:36

what are you talking about they all went back out

#283 Sakae

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:40

lets be honest.

if it were michael all hell to pay - nice boy seb and whilst technically he did get in the way as harsh as it may have been lets let him go. lets ignore that a 10 grid slot kills your next race or that a 5 grid penalty took away a monaco pole - because seb was the fastest and hes the one we have to let him off.

fia wants a new hero and seb has been appointed.


I thought it was Alonso? :D

#284 dave34m

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:44

The only thing I know is Vettel already had pole position and he and Red Bull knew it. He went out, what for? Only one slow lap, no time set, what for? Be a moving chicane. Nothing else. Impede a direct rival in the championship. It reminds me of a certaing parking lot at La Rascasse, only more cleverly disguised this time. No matter how you look at it he impeded another driver, slowed him down, made him lose around 0,3-0,4 seconds and 2-3 places in the grid, yet he got away with it with "a reprimand" while Vergne got a 3-place grid penalty and Hamilton has been getting tones of penalties for all kind of things. If it was Maldonado or Grosjean I can imagine what would've happened.

Geez, you'd have to be retarded to go out just to impede another driver

#285 krapmeister

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:45

The only thing I know is Vettel already had pole position and he and Red Bull knew it. He went out, what for? Only one slow lap, no time set, what for? Be a moving chicane. Nothing else. Impede a direct rival in the championship. It reminds me of a certaing parking lot at La Rascasse, only more cleverly disguised this time. No matter how you look at it he impeded another driver, slowed him down, made him lose around 0,3-0,4 seconds and 2-3 places in the grid, yet he got away with it with "a reprimand" while Vergne got a 3-place grid penalty and Hamilton has been getting tones of penalties for all kind of things. If it was Maldonado or Grosjean I can imagine what would've happened.


He was out there to head off a potential challenge from his team mate, not his fault that Kimi goes off and causes a yellow flag which nullifies his and Mark's attempt...

#286 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:51

The only thing I know is Vettel already had pole position and he and Red Bull knew it. He went out, what for? Only one slow lap, no time set, what for? Be a moving chicane. Nothing else. Impede a direct rival in the championship. It reminds me of a certaing parking lot at La Rascasse, only more cleverly disguised this time. No matter how you look at it he impeded another driver, slowed him down, made him lose around 0,3-0,4 seconds and 2-3 places in the grid, yet he got away with it with "a reprimand" while Vergne got a 3-place grid penalty and Hamilton has been getting tones of penalties for all kind of things. If it was Maldonado or Grosjean I can imagine what would've happened.


Yeah, cos he's really gonna go out and put 2-3 laps on a set of tyres that he might need for the race just to try and impede another driver, knowing he'd be risking a penalty. Riiiiiiiiiight.........no.

#287 bourbon

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:18

Perhaps you'd better think about that a little harder and consider a revision to your theory - there's been a lot of test-passing-flexi-areo-devices built into the RB and they might have also made a contribution.


Doesn't matter. Those test-passing-flexi-areo-devices built into the RB aren't in the cockpit making decisions. So I stand by what I said. It's always the combination, there is simply no way around that, imo.