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Has the time come for Webber to start racing for Vettel's championship?


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#51 dave34m

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:22

Imho Webber is realistic enough to know that his shot is gone. Just like after Korea 2010.

He was ahead of Vettel in points right up to the last race wasn't he, I thought he was second to Alonso going into the final race

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#52 dave34m

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:32

They could just release him into the traffic, and we will have another of karne's famous meltdown.... :rotfl:

:-) Go easy on him, it cant be easy being a Webber fan

#53 bourbon

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:37

It aint over till the fat lady sings - as it were.

A driver should never pack it in until he is no longer mathematically in it. We learned that lesson again as recently as the 2010 season.

Edited by bourbon, 08 October 2012 - 02:37.


#54 HPT

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:13

RBR didn't ask Vettel to support Webber back in 2010 because Vettel was mathematically in contention, so why should Webber do it now?

#55 karne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:22

RBR didn't ask Vettel to support Webber back in 2010 because Vettel was mathematically in contention, so why should Webber do it now?


:up:

#56 Jimisgod

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:24

Vettel has already won it. Unless Grosjean goes for the Red Bull double, it's over.

#57 Brother Fox

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:30

Grosjean should be called the Jagerbomb if he does

#58 HP

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:20

It's not like Vettel needs Webber's help at this stage. But if Webber is mathematically out of it, then why not if the situation arises?

For me Webber is already out of contention however. The picture posted of him, Button and Vettel after Suzuka qualifying, was quite telling to me.

#59 apoka

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:29

RBR didn't ask Vettel to support Webber back in 2010 because Vettel was mathematically in contention, so why should Webber do it now?

Webber is not mathematically out of it - not even Massa, Grosjean or Rosberg. But with a close battle at the front and Webber 56 points behind, they may need every point. As mentioned before, 2010 was different since Vettel was always less than 30 points away and the faster driver (with a huge number of points lost due to unreliability). In any case, I think RBR won't ask Webber for help nor is it likely that Vettel will need or even want it and I doubt Webber would actually do it (if yes, then only with lots of drama).


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#60 wattoroos

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:48

It's not like Vettel needs Webber's help at this stage. But if Webber is mathematically out of it, then why not if the situation arises?

For me Webber is already out of contention however. The picture posted of him, Button and Vettel after Suzuka qualifying, was quite telling to me.

Which picture is that. I believe it is between Vettel and Alonso, but then a couple a couple of races ago, it was only Alonso. Although, while racing for the win, Webber may finish in between Vettel and Alonso which could help Vettel. But there are still 125 points on offer, plenty of racing to go

#61 Sakae

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:18

Webber is not mathematically out of it - not even Massa, Grosjean or Rosberg. But with a close battle at the front and Webber 56 points behind, they may need every point. As mentioned before, 2010 was different since Vettel was always less than 30 points away and the faster driver (with a huge number of points lost due to unreliability). In any case, I think RBR won't ask Webber for help nor is it likely that Vettel will need or even want it and I doubt Webber would actually do it (if yes, then only with lots of drama).

After Suzuka Webber is actually sixty (60) points adrift from the lead score, with five races to go. Button is just couple of points behind, whereas Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, and Vettel all are ahead of him. (One or two full wins ahead). Arithmetics aside, probability of Webber winning WDC 2012 is not a very good one by any strech of imagination.

Edited by Sakae, 08 October 2012 - 06:20.


#62 karne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:21

But if Webber is mathematically out of it, then why not if the situation arises?


Because Red Bull would never ask Vettel to do the same if the situation was reversed.

#63 Sakae

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:43

If so, than parity exists in that team, and any suggestion that Webber si No. 2 can be ditched.

#64 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:51

Because Red Bull would never ask Vettel to do the same if the situation was reversed.


of course they would.

And if Vettel was genuinely out of it no doubt he'd help Webber because he's part of the Red Bull team, plus Vettel's comfortable with his position as he's already a double world champion.

You really read too much into things karne.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 08 October 2012 - 06:53.


#65 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:58

The best way Webber can help Vettel is by taking points of the other championship rivals. Which by the way is the best way he can help himself.

So ... problem solved.

#66 F1ultimate

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:07

Grosjean should be called the Jagerbomb if he does


Haha good one. :lol:

Grosjean will be a majow factor in the championship, especially since he has a habit of ranking amongst the front runners.

#67 Meanbeakin

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:18

Mark's not out of it but he needs to start winning in Korea. Realistically I'd say it's down to Alonso and Vettel with Kimi and Lewis still having a shot.

#68 Jackmancer

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:21

Has Webber even been a minor threat to Vettel the past races? I don't think there will be teamorders simply because Vettel will be ahead of Webber anyway.

#69 F.M.

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:55

Has Webber even been a minor threat to Vettel the past races? I don't think there will be teamorders simply because Vettel will be ahead of Webber anyway.

Webber was a major threat to Vettel in Japan. He was just unlucky, which he has been for quite a couple of races lately

#70 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:57

Webber was a major threat to Vettel in Japan. He was just unlucky, which he has been for quite a couple of races lately



Definetly major, he was less than three tenths behind him in qualifying.

#71 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:10

The best way Webber can help Vettel is by taking points of the other championship rivals. Which by the way is the best way he can help himself.

So ... problem solved.

And Webber is more than capable of taking a few points off Vettel's championship rivals. If Grosjean did not ruin his race at T2 yesterday, Webber could easily have finished on the podium and took points off Hamilton.

Whether Webber likes it or not, he will have to play 2nd fiddle to Vettel in the next 5 races.

#72 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:28

I would actually prefer if Webber continues to fight for the title on his own. If Vettel loses the title because of Mark, so be it! you should become world champion because you can beat them all on your own, not because your teammate moves aside for you.

That said, even if Mark fails to beat Vettel, he might be indirectly helping him if he finishes ahead of the other championship rivals (Hamilton and Alonso), but I don't think that this should be the approach that RedBull uses for him on the races.

#73 karne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:22

I would actually prefer if Webber continues to fight for the title on his own. If Vettel loses the title because of Mark, so be it! you should become world champion because you can beat them all on your own, not because your teammate moves aside for you.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

#74 joshb

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:26

Ironic given some on here were screaming for Webber to be let through in Japan and Brazil in 2010

I'd like to think that Vettel has it in him to win it on his own accord, after all he's done it twice that way, - by winning races on merit. If Webber happens top come in between him and Alonso, then so be it.

#75 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:26

I would actually prefer if Webber continues to fight for the title on his own. If Vettel loses the title because of Mark, so be it! you should become world champion because you can beat them all on your own, not because your teammate moves aside for you.

Your teammate already plays a decent size role in your championship position, I dont see that moving over for them once a season really tarnishes anything too much.

#76 karne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:31

Ironic given some on here were screaming for Webber to be let through in Japan and Brazil in 2010


Don't recall if I was here then, but it definitely wouldn't have been me.

With all that said, I don't think Red Bull tried very hard to give any advantage to Mark in spite of their stated "first support to the driver ahead in the championship" position that they came up with when they screwed him over at Silverstone.

#77 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:41

RBR didn't ask Vettel to support Webber back in 2010 because Vettel was mathematically in contention, so why should Webber do it now?


Because Webber asked RBR and Vettel to do it in 2010. He should put his money where his mouth is.

#78 Jon83

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:54

Webber was a major threat to Vettel in Japan. He was just unlucky, which he has been for quite a couple of races lately


He also goes missing quite a lot.

With regards to the initial question, I don't really think it will come down to that. I don't see Webber being ahead of Vettel too often in the final 5 races.

#79 sv401

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:58

Regardless of whether team orders are justified or not, Webber's situation is not really comparable to Vettel's 2010 one. In the latter case, there was always a realistic chance to win the WDC (it was realistic indeed, as shown by the final standings), and the gap from the leader was never much more than a race win. Webber is now 60 points (2.4 wins) behind Alonso with 5 races to go. That means that even if he wins all five of the remaining races - a very optimistic and unlikely prediction - the Spaniard can still beat him with three fourth and two third places. The Ferrari is capable of that. On the other hand, if Alonso manages to outscore him only once - and I think that is very likely to happen - and Webber wins all the four other races, then fifth places only or even worse could be enough.

Edited by sv401, 08 October 2012 - 13:01.


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#80 karne

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:29

Because Webber asked RBR and Vettel to do it in 2010.


No he didn't.

#81 Ian G

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:07

Definetly major, he was less than three tenths behind him in qualifying.



Yeah,that included stuffing up a corner,i think Mark's still a chance but obviously Seb's the favourite .Alonso won't go down without a fight and now that Massa has found a bit of form its going to be interesting.

#82 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:42

I would actually prefer if Webber continues to fight for the title on his own. If Vettel loses the title because of Mark, so be it! you should become world champion because you can beat them all on your own, not because your teammate moves aside for you.

That said, even if Mark fails to beat Vettel, he might be indirectly helping him if he finishes ahead of the other championship rivals (Hamilton and Alonso), but I don't think that this should be the approach that RedBull uses for him on the races.



Fight for the title together with the team, not on his own, is actually the best way Webber can help Vettel.

#83 Atreiu

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:31

Yes, definitely.
Sometimes he was unlucky, sometimes he wasn't fast enough, and sometimes there's a Grosjean nearby. But it's realistically over now, so he will either race for wins and hope Vettel doesn't follow him right behind or somehow try to help Vettel. Either way he'll be contributing to their WCC bid.

#84 GhostR

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:25

Probably not for Korea - a win there, with both Alonso and Vettel having no/low points, and Mark's back in with a shout. But if it stays as is, or Mark falls even further behind, then (even if still mathematically in it) it would definitely be time to step into the #2 role for the rest of the season.

I thought Mark looked really on it in Japan, back on the pace that seemed lacking in other recent races. Just mega unlucky that Grosjean decided it was Mark's turn to get clobbered on the first lap. (Speaking of - what's the record for the most number of first lap incidents / retirements in a season for a single driver? Grosjean must surely be in with a shout of winning that one!)

#85 sailor

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:35

RBR should employ these tactics now

Tactic # 1 >
Qualify Vettel on pole with ridiculously low fuel and have Webber qualify on high fuel and still make P2
Vettel scoots off and Webber holds the field deliberately driving slow to back up the drivers behind who cant overtake. Vettel builds the gap necessary for a fuel stop and retains the lead.

Tactic # 2 >
Qualify Vettel on pole and change the tyres to a brand new Bridgestones Softs and have Webber sit in P2 with used tires
Vettel scoots off and Webber holds the field deliberately driving slow to back up the drivers behind who cant overtake. Vettel builds the gap necessary with stonking laps taking all the life out of the tyre - do a tyre stop and retain the lead.


Makes sense ? .. no wait none of those are allowed in F1 anymore. Nor do RBR have the pace to lockout front row at will so I cant see Webber (or any other driver) being used systemically to help the #1 driver. In today's age - only being fast matters , team tactics matter a lot less as Ferrari demonstrated at Monza this year.

Slightly OT but I m glad that we wont see those awful days where the above mentioned tactics were used with impunity by one particular team and drivers behind were at mercy of dirty air of the slow-moving Rubens.
Its a fashion to complain about DRS, Pirellis and Quali regs but we don't realize how good we have it now.



#86 goldenboy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:45

really dissapointing the way suzuka went. Watching vets pole lap was a thing of beauty, but I would like to see Marks! Only 2 tenths off including a mistake at the hairpin, daaaamn. And then gros making sure he is out of the title hunt, crap.

On the positive side, he had great pace this weekend, hopefully he can overcome his form at the bogey tracks and be a help to red bull. Things seem to be good between them at the moment. I noticed after suzuka horner spent more then twice as much time talking about webber than vettel.

With the WCC being close now a lot of money hangs in the balance

#87 midgrid

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:07

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?

#88 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:14

Mark will win, Vettel will take second and the Championship lead.

#89 ali.unal

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:23

On the last lap, if Webber leads Vettel and Alonso is third, then Webber should yield. If Alonso is retired, Webber should keep the win.

#90 goldenboy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:25

webbers long run pace was a lot slower than vettel, so if they were on the same fuel load vettel will probably pass him through pace anyway, and can't see Mark doing anything too hard

#91 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:11

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?

Vettel will finish ahead unless he has a problem or a DNF.

#92 Wander

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:13

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?


I don't think it's relevant at all, cause Vettel will win the championship regardless of Webber helping/not helping unless he DNFs a couple of times or something.

Edited by Wander, 13 October 2012 - 12:14.


#93 karne

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:14

On the last lap, if Webber leads Vettel and Alonso is third, then Webber should yield.


No, he should not.

Come on Mark. Jump em all!

#94 dau

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:16

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?

Webber will have an awful start and end up P3 before the first corner.

#95 swerved

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:19

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?



Well Jenson thinks he'll allow Vettel past, Whitmarsh thinks he wont, at least, not willingly.

http://uk.reuters.co..... Sports News)




#96 karne

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:51

Well Jenson thinks he'll allow Vettel past, Whitmarsh thinks he wont, at least, not willingly.

http://uk.reuters.co..... Sports News)


Goes to show that in spite of the friendship between Mark and Jenson, Whitmarsh knows Mark better.

#97 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:13

The time has long come. But I think Webber absolutely does not want to. At this point of time, Webber and Button have no business fighting with their teammates.

#98 karne

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:16

The time has long come. But I think Webber absolutely does not want to. At this point of time, Webber and Button have no business fighting with their teammates.


Excuse you, but Mark has a championship to win.

If Vettel wants to get past him, that's his problem. Hopefully Vettel can fight clean, though the last time these two were left to fight Vettel decided to emulate Schumi and come across...

#99 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:19

Vettel 165
Webber 132
There is no big difference between them, Mark is still in title hunt.


oops! I didn't get this thread is one week old.

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 13 October 2012 - 13:24.


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#100 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:24

Its going to happen whether Mark wants it to or not. How he keeps motivated is beyond me and its a credit to him IMO.