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Has the time come for Webber to start racing for Vettel's championship?


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#101 karne

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:27

Its going to happen whether Mark wants it to or not. How he keeps motivated is beyond me and its a credit to him IMO.


Spirit.
Focus.
Ability.
Tenacity.
Aussie Grit.

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#102 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:31

I think Red Bull would be a bit ridiculous to let Webber and Vettel race. Way too much to lose, both for Vettel's WDC chances and Red Bull's WCC standing.

#103 pdac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:38

Well, this thread is extremely relevant after today's qualifying session. What will happen tomorrow?

As they exit the first corner, Seb will be leading the race.

#104 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:06

Spirit.
Focus.
Ability.
Tenacity.
Aussie Grit.

And he's certainly the most likeable character of the two, but having such a talented teammate with so much support of the team must get to him a little in private. I'd be praying for a leg breaking accident for my chance to shine lol.

#105 MP422

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:20

Turkey 2010 please !!! Ham's gonna be pushing hard !!

#106 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:29

both JB and MW thinks webber will play ''spoiling role'' :smoking:

Jenson Button is expecting Red Bull to play championship games on Sunday. Mark Webber has qualified on pole in Korea, having declared that he is not ready to start playing a supporting role for his title-vying Red Bull teammate Sebastian Vettel. But with Vettel now just four points behind championship leader Fernando Alonso, and two places ahead of the Spaniard on the grid, McLaren's Button senses Webber has an important spoiling role to play. "I don't think he (Webber) will, do you?" McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh told reporters in the McLaren hospitality area in Korea. "I do," nodded Button. Whitmarsh replied: "Well, I don't think he will, willingly."



#107 joshb

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:18

I'm hoping Vettel just beats him for pace... but if Vettel were to win, even if it was genuine, difficult to see it being well recieved... but then you get used to that.


#108 weareracing

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:27

I guess it depends on how the qualifying grids pan out over the remaining 5 GP's.
We have a Red Bull 1-2 in Korea, so if Mark is leading and Seb is 2nd, no need to do anything until the last lap and then ONLY if Fernando is 3rd.
A 4th place Alonso would score 6 points less than a 2nd place Sebastian who would become the Championship leader by 2 points with 4 races left.
That would keep Mark motivated, leave Sebastian as Championship leader, and the TEAM stronger for the remaining 4 races.

#109 DrF

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:03

Seeing as Vettel was faster than Mark in quali, he should have no problem getting past him, when he needs to.

#110 Zava

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:33

Excuse you, but Mark has a championship to win.

If Vettel wants to get past him, that's his problem. Hopefully Vettel can fight clean, though the last time these two were left to fight Vettel decided to emulate Schumi and come across...

has a what to what?

last time they were left to fight was just 4 races ago, Vettel put Mark in his place. :wave:
though I must add I hope Webber won't let Vettel through. I hope he will be overtaken by him. :)

#111 Longtimefan

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:38

I would LOVE Mark to get a good start tomorrow and see if Red Bull attempt to do a 'Ferrari' but knowing Mark, he's bound to have a lousy start and drop 2-3 places. :(



#112 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:41

Excuse you, but Mark has a championship to win.

If Vettel wants to get past him, that's his problem. Hopefully Vettel can fight clean, though the last time these two were left to fight Vettel decided to emulate Schumi and come across...



correction ...

Excuse you, but Mark had a championship to win... in 2010 :smoking:


better luck 2013 :cool:

#113 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:18

In my opinion webber chose not to challenge vettel today, except for the first few corners maybe.

#114 sosidge

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:20

In my opinion webber chose not to challenge vettel today, except for the first few corners maybe.


Rubbish. He didn't have the pace. You don't need to drop 10 seconds back to "not challenge" your teammate. Massa was "not challenging" from 2 seconds back.

#115 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:24

Rubbish. He didn't have the pace. You don't need to drop 10 seconds back to "not challenge" your teammate. Massa was "not challenging" from 2 seconds back.

Take it easy, I'm not saying he had the pace to beat vettel, but it seemed he was able to turn the pace up pretty damn quickly whenever alonso got close.

Obviously not something either of us can prove but I don't think you can so easily dismiss it as 'rubbish'

Edited by goldenboy, 14 October 2012 - 08:25.


#116 Wander

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:25

The championship battle is over for Webber so there is really no reason for him to challenge.

#117 wonk123

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:31

The championship battle is over for Webber so there is really no reason for him to challenge.


Yep there is no need at all for Webber to try and win a race, because it's not in anyones interest to actually win a GP

#118 karne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:49

In my opinion webber chose not to challenge vettel today, except for the first few corners maybe.


Bullsh*t. It's Mark. Of course he challenged Vettel. But after the attempt on the outside he then had to deal with Alonso which allowed Vettel to scamper off.

On the plus side, Mark got FL, and I'm sure that made Golden Boy cranky.

#119 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:57

Bullsh*t. It's Mark. Of course he challenged Vettel. But after the attempt on the outside he then had to deal with Alonso which allowed Vettel to scamper off.

On the plus side, Mark got FL, and I'm sure that made Golden Boy cranky.

I agree. Vettel only got the race victory and the championship lead. I am sure he would change his place with Webber in a heartbeat if he could.

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#120 krapmeister

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:04

Once Seb got in front of Mark the only way that he was going to get back in front of Seb today was if Seb made an error or his car struck trouble - even if Mark was faster RBR wouldn't have been all that keen considering Alonso was just behind them in 3rd. Nor would have I thought that Seb would've been too willing either...

#121 BigWicks

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:05

I thought Webber was coasting today, every time Alonso go close he dropped a lap time quicker than Vettel.

#122 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:09

In my opinion webber chose not to challenge vettel today, except for the first few corners maybe.

I have to say that I have been wondering if there were team orders for the first corner, or Webber let it go on his own, but past the first corner he was controlling his P2, rather than challenging for P1. Reasons aren't clear, because simply either Seb got loose and lived in the world of his own, or Webber simply realized how fragile WDC situation is, and decided to play it safe, which I think was a wise and mature move.

#123 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:12

I think web wanted to keep 1st, and fought for it, but after losing it settled for 2nd and they were both racing to a delta managing tyres and gap to alonso. Maybe there was a prior arrangement regarding this scenario. Would make sense.

Some good info from brundle about webbers crappy starts I hadn't heard before regarding his initial reaction being fine but engaging second where he is weak. (from pilbeam, webs race engineer)

Edited by goldenboy, 14 October 2012 - 11:13.


#124 Racer3

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:24

The fact that Webber was able to turn the pace up when Alonso got closer doesn't mean he could have gone quicker than Vettel. I am pretty sure Vettel could have upped his pace, too, had it been necessary. Still not convinced whether the nerve racking warnings as to the tyres' state were play acting or not, even if a mechanic maintained the latter to Brundle.
Vettel is in impressive form, doesn't set a foot wrong and has this extremely strong will to win. I can't believe Webber again failed to win this start and to grab his chance today. I feel with him, it must be so frustrating...


#125 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:33

The fact that Webber was able to turn the pace up when Alonso got closer doesn't mean he could have gone quicker than Vettel. I am pretty sure Vettel could have upped his pace, too, had it been necessary.



Agree with that.

#126 H2H

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:29

If Marks action on the track and his words and face at the PC tell the truth then he wanted that first place badly and tried to snatch hit. In the end the result is not a surprise, Seb had one of his almost usual performances. Apart from some Qualy. issues he is driving a great season. It is great to see that in Korea Mark helped the team most by helping himself.

Edited by H2H, 14 October 2012 - 14:31.


#127 SpaMaster

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 18:28

I have no idea why Webber says he pushed, wanted the win over Vettel, and was upset. Seriously, he has no business fighting with Vettel anymore. Red Bull should have a clear word with him.

#128 v@sh

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:35

You believe everything in says in the PC? Just like Sergio says when he wasn't in contact with McLaren.

What do you think Webber is going to say? Yeah I was just coasting the whole race to maintain a gap to Alonso. Which driver doesn't want to win? even if he isn't allowed to, wasn't able to especially when you're on pole. Seriously, he can fight with whoever he wants to, if you can't see already he is already towing the line for Red Bull for Seb's WDC.

#129 One

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:37

Webber has finished his cutting performance already. I see him not anymore able to battle Seb.
But he will not help Seb, as his mentality will not allow him to.

#130 karne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:51

I have no idea why Webber says he pushed, wanted the win over Vettel, and was upset. Seriously, he has no business fighting with Vettel anymore. Red Bull should have a clear word with him.


*muttering to self* Don't feed the trolls, don't feed the trolls, don't punch them in the face...


OF COURSE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIGHTING WITH VETTEL.


He is 63 points behind and there are 100 points maximum left on the table. Plenty of leeway.

#131 Afterburner

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 00:39

*muttering to self* Don't feed the trolls, don't feed the trolls, don't punch them in the face...


OF COURSE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIGHTING WITH VETTEL.


He is 63 points behind and there are 100 points maximum left on the table. Plenty of leeway.

I completely agree. I feel the only time team orders should even be considered is when one of a team's drivers is mathematically out of the championship. Seb should have to fight Webber at least as long as he is in contention.

#132 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 00:51

Well, if what Webber did in Korea is considered fighting then I'm sure everyone in Red Bull is ok with Webber fighting as much as he wants.

#133 ch103

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:55

I am afraid that Webber has been supporting Vettel's title bid ever since his cold spell after the British GP. Once Vettel began to separate himself from Webber in the WDC standings, it was all RB needed to fully back Seb.

#134 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:31

I am afraid that Webber has been supporting Vettel's title bid ever since his cold spell after the British GP. Once Vettel began to separate himself from Webber in the WDC standings, it was all RB needed to fully back Seb.


You mean after he signed the contract extension? :smoking: They are doing what it has to be done what I can't stand is the hypocrisy of denying it and the feeling of moral superiority they love to show.

#135 ch103

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:36

You mean after he signed the contract extension? :smoking: They are doing what it has to be done what I can't stand is the hypocrisy of denying it and the feeling of moral superiority they love to show.


RB's management has demonstrated that their practices and methodologies win WDC's and WCC's. It is hard to argue otherwise. Their arrogance reveals itself when they act hypocritical with moral superiority as you say.

I think it would be fascinating to see how top F1 teams develop parts, determine their value and chooses which driver to give the part to first. Also, it would be interesting to see how long of a gap existed before the part was duplicated and given to the other driver.

#136 sosidge

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:46

Ahhh... the good old conspiracy theories are back.

#137 H2H

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:32

Ahhh... the good old conspiracy theories are back.


Indeed. Ignore the facts and carry on, is the daily slogan of some fans here.

#138 goldenboy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:32

Indeed. Ignore the facts and carry on, is the daily slogan of some fans here.

I think you should ask yourself how many people currently ragging on red bull above are mclaren fans rather than webber fans though.

I don't think there was a conspiracy, but there is no problem with discussing whether or not webber didn't do all he could to challenge vettel. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that if it was the case - webber cost himself a shot by being slow for too many races. But it's a fact that he was able to drop his laptime immediately when alonso got close. I also don't think in my opinion you can believe his post race remarks, I don't think it's something they would openly discuss, in fact I don't think you would find any team doing differently if that was the case. Pretty obvious really, but still only speculation on my behalf.

Don't get me wrong, I think vettel was faster and deserved the win, but I also believe webber was reargunning for him and could have been faster.

One thing that I would like to talk about is the laptime/delta each are given to manage their tyres, I find that one a bit fascinating, but will bring it up in the versus thread as it belongs there.

Edited by goldenboy, 15 October 2012 - 10:34.


#139 karne

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:38

I think you should ask yourself how many people currently ragging on red bull above are mclaren fans rather than webber fans though.

I don't think there was a conspiracy, but there is no problem with discussing whether or not webber didn't do all he could to challenge vettel. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that if it was the case - webber cost himself a shot by being slow for too many races. But it's a fact that he was able to drop his laptime immediately when alonso got close. I also don't think in my opinion you can believe his post race remarks, I don't think it's something they would openly discuss, in fact I don't think you would find any team doing differently if that was the case. Pretty obvious really, but still only speculation on my behalf.

Don't get me wrong, I think vettel was faster and deserved the win, but I also believe webber was reargunning for him and could have been faster.

One thing that I would like to talk about is the laptime/delta each are given to manage their tyres, I find that one a bit fascinating, but will bring it up in the versus thread as it belongs there.


tl;dr you can bash on Webber as much as you like but you're not allowed to call RBR out on their bullsh*t.

Right. I see.

"webber cost himself a shot by being slow for too many races"? So the broken diff, the gearbox penalties, the continuous technical problems and dumb strategy calls by RBR had NOTHING to do with his pace? It was just Mark being slow. Right. I gotcha. Silly me for thinking the mechanical status of a car had anything to do with its speed!

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#140 Ian G

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:24

:love:

#141 H2H

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:27

I think you should ask yourself how many people currently ragging on red bull above are mclaren fans rather than webber fans though.

I don't think there was a conspiracy, but there is no problem with discussing whether or not webber didn't do all he could to challenge vettel. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that if it was the case - webber cost himself a shot by being slow for too many races. But it's a fact that he was able to drop his laptime immediately when alonso got close. I also don't think in my opinion you can believe his post race remarks, I don't think it's something they would openly discuss, in fact I don't think you would find any team doing differently if that was the case. Pretty obvious really, but still only speculation on my behalf.

Don't get me wrong, I think vettel was faster and deserved the win, but I also believe webber was reargunning for him and could have been faster.

One thing that I would like to talk about is the laptime/delta each are given to manage their tyres, I find that one a bit fascinating, but will bring it up in the versus thread as it belongs there.


As a matter of fact it was a general message directed at a certain type of fans found among the supporters of pretty much every team and driver. You are not among them as you try to make sense out the facts.

I love the guessing game myself, as one can see in the R8 thread, but one always has to know just how much we know and don't know. In this case, with the race being a tyre-conservation excercise like many other ones in the last two seasons, the drivers have a wide band of potential laptimes. The goal is to squeeze out the best time over the target laps while keeping prepared for events as a SC forcing a strategy change. Mark has been over the last two Pirelli years been the driver which suffered more degradation and a more conservative approach in Korea seems to fit perfectly.

This sensible fit won't do away with the speculation, which is of course part of the fun, but I think it is a solid foundation. While the RBR message about the importance of Mark and Seb pushing each other hard to better performances does have a PR factor it seems to me to be true. RBR needs two drivers which deliver, get a lot of points and take them away from the rest to win both the WCC and WDC. A motivated Mark helped his team in this season so far most by helping himself - RBR won't easily change that approach.



#142 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:17

Well, if what Webber did in Korea is considered fighting then I'm sure everyone in Red Bull is ok with Webber fighting as much as he wants.

Webber slip-streamed Vettel on the long straight and tried to overtake him on the outside into turn 3. He tried but was unsuccessful as Vettel had the inside line then. The consequence of that move was he nearly lost his 2nd place to Alonso, as Alonso had a better drive out of that corner.

That's more than could be said about Massa's challenge on Alonso eventhough the former was clearly faster on the last stint.

#143 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:10

Webber slip-streamed Vettel on the long straight and tried to overtake him on the outside into turn 3. He tried but was unsuccessful as Vettel had the inside line then. The consequence of that move was he nearly lost his 2nd place to Alonso, as Alonso had a better drive out of that corner.

That's more than could be said about Massa's challenge on Alonso eventhough the former was clearly faster on the last stint.


I'm sure Vettel was very worried about that "move". If Webber would really want to fight for the first place why did he only go for fast laps each time that Alonso closed the gap? Webber did an excellent job in Korea, the job he was asked for, and that's fine with me. A shame that, as expected, Horner is once more talking BS as we all were fools.

#144 sv401

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:14

If Webber would really want to fight for the first place why did he only go for fast laps each time that Alonso closed the gap?


The team was apparently worried about the tyres on both cars lasting until the end of the race.

#145 engel

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:26

I'm sure Vettel was very worried about that "move". If Webber would really want to fight for the first place why did he only go for fast laps each time that Alonso closed the gap? Webber did an excellent job in Korea, the job he was asked for, and that's fine with me. A shame that, as expected, Horner is once more talking BS as we all were fools.


RB has a long standing policy, when 1-2 racing stops at the last pitstop(s). Webber has benefited from it, Vettel has benefited from it.

Webber's first stint on the options was .. wobbly at best (hence he was the first to pit starting the chain of people covering his pitstop). He was better with the primes, but by that time Vettel was already 10 seconds up the road

#146 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:31

The team was apparently worried about the tyres on both cars lasting until the end of the race.


If Webber wanted to fight for the win or fight for the WDC he would have taken that risk anyway, when you are so far behind only finishing in front of your rivals is an option. He decided to keep the second and give Vettel more advantage in the WDC because going for the win he could have ended with nothing and the team very upset. That's called teamwork and both did an excellent job as #1 and #2. And that's what it should be expected from a team fighting for both championships, acting differently would have been stupid. Now, if you think Ferrari is the only team that uses team orders and believe all the BS of Horner and co is up to you.

#147 goingthedistance

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:40

Listening to Horner on the radio to Mark after the race it was pretty clear he's already doing what he needs to do for the team. Webber and Red Bull's image is such that they will never be overt about it.

It should be remembered too that without Grosjean driving into him, two gearbox penalties, and the team messing up safety car strategy with him in Singapore he'd probably have 50 points or so more than he currently has, so it's not really fair to ask this of Mark when they've refused to do things the other way around when Seb had had misfortune.

#148 Zava

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:49

Listening to Horner on the radio to Mark after the race it was pretty clear he's already doing what he needs to do for the team. Webber and Red Bull's image is such that they will never be overt about it.

It should be remembered too that without Grosjean driving into him, two gearbox penalties, and the team messing up safety car strategy with him in Singapore he'd probably have 50 points or so more than he currently has, so it's not really fair to ask this of Mark when they've refused to do things the other way around when Seb had had misfortune.

but it should be remembered too that without Karthikeyan driving into him, and two alternator failures Vettel would also have 50 points or so more.  ;)

#149 choyothe

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:57

People whining about team orders in a race Vettel first overtakes Webber from the dirty side on the start, then defends from him into the next corner before clearly beating him on pace? Not surprised.

I can't really see Webber accepting a team order to let Vettel through unless maybe for the last race and a deciding move, he doesn't seem to be a team player like that.

#150 sailor

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 16:04

People whining about team orders in a race Vettel first overtakes Webber from the dirty side on the start, then defends from him into the next corner before clearly beating him on pace? Not surprised.

I can't really see Webber accepting a team order to let Vettel through unless maybe for the last race and a deciding move, he doesn't seem to be a team player like that.


No body needs to be that kind of team player except if one is playing for team Alonso.
Irrespective of whether Vettel wins or loses , he will at least take pride in the fact.

Webber already is doing enough team playing by finishing ahead of Alonso so I cant see why anyone should complain.
Anything more should nt even be expected.