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Has the time come for Webber to start racing for Vettel's championship?


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#151 goingthedistance

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 16:05

but it should be remembered too that without Karthikeyan driving into him, and two alternator failures Vettel would also have 50 points or so more.;)


Ah but when we start cataloging mechanical failures as well, I think you will see that Mark has suffered about 80% of them (and I think the Karthikeyan incident was at least 50% Seb's fault). There have been an awful lot that have thrown a spanner in his weekend, even if they haven't always been dramatic failures mid-race. Though the front wing falling off in Spain is a near thing! :)

Edited by goingthedistance, 16 October 2012 - 16:06.


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#152 plumtree

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 16:13

Reportedly, "[url="http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2012/10/13930.html""]"Mark was unhappy not to have been told of Vettel’s tyre problems.[/url]"

Make of that what you will.

#153 boldhakka

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 16:18

:clap: :clap: MOAR conspiracies!

#154 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:37

People whining about team orders in a race Vettel first overtakes Webber from the dirty side on the start, then defends from him into the next corner before clearly beating him on pace? Not surprised.

I can't really see Webber accepting a team order to let Vettel through unless maybe for the last race and a deciding move, he doesn't seem to be a team player like that.


Who is complaining? :confused:

No body needs to be that kind of team player except if one is playing for team Alonso.
Irrespective of whether Vettel wins or loses , he will at least take pride in the fact.


I don't know if you are too naive or the greatest troll ever. :rotfl:

#155 joshb

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 20:50

Ah but when we start cataloging mechanical failures as well, I think you will see that Mark has suffered about 80% of them (and I think the Karthikeyan incident was at least 50% Seb's fault). There have been an awful lot that have thrown a spanner in his weekend, even if they haven't always been dramatic failures mid-race. Though the front wing falling off in Spain is a near thing! :)


to be fair, Vettel did also have to make an unscheduled stop too, even if it didn't totally wreck his inlap like it did Mark's

#156 PinkZepStones

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 21:49

but it should be remembered too that without Karthikeyan driving into him, and two alternator failures Vettel would also have 50 points or so more. ;)


We can do that for everyone, If Hamilton hadn't had every problem he has he'd probably be sipping piña colada out of Nicole's erm ......'scherzinger' with a 70 point lead at this point.

Alonso too might be ahead of Vettel without two take outs.

It's all ifs and bits that only matter to us fans.

#157 Zava

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:05

We can do that for everyone, If Hamilton hadn't had every problem he has he'd probably be sipping piña colada out of Nicole's erm ......'scherzinger' with a 70 point lead at this point.

Alonso too might be ahead of Vettel without two take outs.

It's all ifs and bits that only matter to us fans.

but how is Alonso and Hamilton relevant in a Vettel vs Webber type of topic, and a discussion about making Webber a gunner from now on is wrong, because of the points lost by misfortune?

#158 sv401

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:24

If Webber wanted to fight for the win or fight for the WDC he would have taken that risk anyway, when you are so far behind only finishing in front of your rivals is an option. He decided to keep the second and give Vettel more advantage in the WDC because going for the win he could have ended with nothing and the team very upset. That's called teamwork and both did an excellent job as #1 and #2. And that's what it should be expected from a team fighting for both championships, acting differently would have been stupid. Now, if you think Ferrari is the only team that uses team orders and believe all the BS of Horner and co is up to you.


If Webber tried to attack, Vettel would have responded by driving faster too, possibly wrecking the tyres of both of them, and gifting a 1-2 to Ferrari. Preventing the risk of that is not favoritism, but common sense. If Webber wanted to win the Korean GP (assuming that he was allowed to do so), he would have had to keep his position at the start, or take the lead at the pit stops. It is normal for teams to keep their drivers from fighting each other in a way that would potentially cost WCC points (by crashing, ruining the tyres, running out of fuel, etc.), even if they otherwise have equal status; see McLaren in Turkey 2010 for an example, or even Red Bull, also in Turkey but 2009.
Now it is entirely possible that Webber already has number 2 status, but Red Bull's strategy in Korea is not enough to prove that.

#159 PinkZepStones

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 17:05

but how is Alonso and Hamilton relevant in a Vettel vs Webber type of topic, and a discussion about making Webber a gunner from now on is wrong, because of the points lost by misfortune?



Everything is inter-related, it might be a topic about webber racing for vettel but still other drivers have to be included because the title is should webber "fight off" other drivers for vettel, the other drivers have to be mentioned.

My point is that this topic might be irrelevant if we took misfortunes away willy nilly, its all ifs and buts unfortunately, vettel coulda finished valencia, Hamilton could have an unassailable lead quite easily, and alonso could still be leading with lotus racing didnt exist.

On topic however, Vettel hardly needs the help anyway.

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#160 choyothe

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 18:46

We can do that for everyone, If Hamilton hadn't had every problem he has he'd probably be sipping piña colada out of Nicole's erm ......'scherzinger' with a 70 point lead at this point.

Alonso too might be ahead of Vettel without two take outs.

It's all ifs and bits that only matter to us fans.


Hamilton would maybe be there with Seb or above him, not sure. Of course nothing close to 70 points.

One of Alonso's offs was completely his fault and in Spa I can't see him beating Kimi, so that's 10-13 points only. Vettel's alternators alone are 42 points' swing to Alonso, not to mention his other numerous misfortunes (Karthikeyan etc.). So Alonso would be far, far away from Vettel in that scenario.

#161 H2H

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:53

Hamilton would maybe be there with Seb or above him, not sure. Of course nothing close to 70 points.

One of Alonso's offs was completely his fault and in Spa I can't see him beating Kimi, so that's 10-13 points only. Vettel's alternators alone are 42 points' swing to Alonso, not to mention his other numerous misfortunes (Karthikeyan etc.). So Alonso would be far, far away from Vettel in that scenario.


Not sure about Suzuka but certainly Lewis and Vettel lost more big points due to errors. But this is not the point.

#162 goldenboy

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:41

Interesting that webber said he was dissapointed not to be told of vettels tyre problems. Can't find a direct quote from him on it, just a paraphrasing on F1.com selected driver quotes. Also interesting he said he was too conservative on the tyres which apparently made the degradation worse :drunk: leave it to webber to chew his tyres worse by driving slower than he can :lol: Also interesting was Marko saying ferrari missed a trick by not releasing massa to attack webber and then let alonso back by.

All in all, I think we can safely assume with regards to whether or not he was reargunning for vettel - we don't know shit :lol:

The only thing for sure is that whatever red bull are doing/webber is doing or not doing is working perfectly for them. For the record if I were Red Bull I would have asked webber to assist vettels title challenge from korea on (the defecit is too big for him at this stage in my mind).

India will be interesting!

#163 LiJu914

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 13:57

To remind us - statements before India:

Mark Webber:"This weekend if I have a chance to win the grand prix I will go for it. Mathematically I have a chance (of the title), so if I'm in the lead this weekend, I'm not pulling over for anyone."


“We won’t be imposing team orders,” team boss Christian Horner said. “Not yet, anyway. “Sebastian has moved into the lead of the title chase and Mark still has a chance of winning this championship.
“I think it would be wrong to impose team orders, while Mark still mathematically has a chance of winning.


So can we expect team orders from now on?
Of course atm he still has a 2-point-margin that saves him from being mathematically out of the WDC-hunt.
However that doesn´t change the fact, that from now on he will be officially out the equation nonetheless, if a potential teamorder situation occurs.
Example: Mark 1st, Vettel 2nd. If they don´t change positions, Mark will be mathematically out after the race anyway. So they may just as well change positions before that.
The same is true for every other scenario, in which they might be able to change places.

Edited by LiJu914, 31 October 2012 - 14:00.


#164 apoka

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 16:37

So can we expect team orders from now on?

If necessary, probably yes.

Of course atm he still has a 2-point-margin that saves him from being mathematically out of the WDC-hunt.
However that doesn´t change the fact, that from now on he will be officially out the equation nonetheless, if a potential teamorder situation occurs.
Example: Mark 1st, Vettel 2nd. If they don´t change positions, Mark will be mathematically out after the race anyway. So they may just as well change positions before that.
The same is true for every other scenario, in which they might be able to change places.

Yes, the 2-point-margin does not really save him. RB only needs team orders in case Vettel is directly behind Webber, which means that Webber couldn't gain 25 points on Vettel anyway. From a team order perspective, he is out of the WDC race.

While team orders are not popular, RB could look stupid if they don't do it and risk the WDC (WCC does not seem to be at risk for now). Personally, I think the situation won't arise.


#165 gm914

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 16:38

Webber would rather see Alonso take the Championship. There will be no minding of gaps. :lol:

#166 Sakae

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 17:02

Webber doesn't particularly likes Vettel, and that's fine. World is a big place, and they both can live in it as they are. No help is being required, nor requested.

#167 Ian G

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 00:10

There is no love lost but they seem to be getting on OK this year,very chummy in Korea when clowning around with that PSY guy.At least Mark has always been honest with his relationship unlike the Button-Hamilton farce.

#168 lbennie

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 01:58

they are fine this year, met them in person in melbourne, and they were quite chummy indeed. was a bit of an eye opener.



#169 Eff One 2002

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:20

Nope. As long as Webber is mathematically in the hunt he should be allowed to fight. Obviously, when he's no longer in the hunt then yes, assistance time. Vettel probably wouldn't want help anyway.

#170 Brother Fox

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:13

they are fine this year, met them in person in melbourne, and they were quite chummy indeed. was a bit of an eye opener.

But thats not how the media and forums portray it, so you must be wrong

#171 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:14

Nope. As long as Webber is mathematically in the hunt he should be allowed to fight. Obviously, when he's no longer in the hunt then yes, assistance time. Vettel probably wouldn't want help anyway.

With 167 points to his credit and three races to go, I think Webber is pretty much out of it. Even if he wins all three races, whilst Alonso and Seb have DNFs in all three races, Webber would gain only 2 points more than Vettel. What are chances of that really happening?

#172 lbennie

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:40

But thats not how the media and forums portray it, so you must be wrong


:lol: indeed

#173 krapmeister

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:24

How's about we just let them race and see what happens? :drunk:

#174 showtime

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:51

How's about we just let them race and see what happens? :drunk:


We already saw what happened, Webber didn't fight for position with Vettel in Korea or India.

#175 Sakae

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:29

We already saw what happened, Webber didn't fight for position with Vettel in Korea or India.

Why not?

#176 showtime

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:44

Why not?


Do you really think he would have acted the same way if the car he was fighting with in the first corner of both GPs wasn't Vettel's? And before someone suggest the contrary I think he did what he had to do, nothing wrong. I just find amusing that people are discussing when he's going to start helping Vettel when it's obvious he already has.

#177 LiJu914

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:16

Do you really think he would have acted the same way if the car he was fighting with in the first corner of both GPs wasn't Vettel's? And before someone suggest the contrary I think he did what he had to do, nothing wrong. I just find amusing that people are discussing when he's going to start helping Vettel when it's obvious he already has.


Huh?

In Korea Vettel accelerated faster and then had the inside of the corner. Mark tried to re-overtake him after the following straight, but Vettel shut the door.

What do you expect them to do, which you won´t consider as help? Banging wheels or a "Turkey-revival"?

Edited by LiJu914, 01 November 2012 - 13:16.


#178 Ferrari2183

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:26

Huh?

In Korea Vettel accelerated faster and then had the inside of the corner. Mark tried to re-overtake him after the following straight, but Vettel shut the door.

What do you expect them to do, which you won´t consider as help? Banging wheels or a "Turkey-revival"?

Vettel accelerated faster? BS.

Webber had the better start but Vettel made his customary sweep across the track effectively ending Webber's challenge right then and there. I don't think Webber gave him the position though it was clear he was racing Vettel.

#179 ThomFi

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:00

Vettel accelerated faster? BS.

Webber had the better start but Vettel made his customary sweep across the track effectively ending Webber's challenge right then and there. I don't think Webber gave him the position though it was clear he was racing Vettel.



BS ?
In Korea, Webber started from Pole.


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#180 Ferrari2183

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:04

BS ?
In Korea, Webber started from Pole.

Oops. I was thinking about India. Apologies

#181 Alarcon

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:05

Webber is doing a great job for the team. He was fair at Korea and at India too, he fighted the position against Alonso as much as he could like a top driver with kers issue and imo he´s the driver Seb and the team needs, enoughly fast to taking to push Seb and work for the team WCC.

Even if i would prefered Lewis... Mark is still the best option for 2013. He will have again his opportunity and imo he knows this season is over for him.



#182 ali.unal

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:31

I think this is quite telling how Red Bull thinks over the situation:

"Mathematically now it is very difficult for him to win the championship and he is a smart guy. He has been an important part of the team and I have every confidence that he will be doing his best to help the team achieve its objectives for the championship."

Horner wants Webber not to race with Vettel by reminding that it's difficult for him mathematically and calling him as smart. I do think Webber will play along. He is both smart and fair, I guess. In India, I did think he could have given Vettel a much hard time going into that first corner. He just backed off. So, I guess he already started to play supporting role. Good for him.

#183 jjcale

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:11

Great job by MW and all the other drivers between SV and FA last weekend ... hopefully they keep parting like the Red Sea for FA till the end of the season  ;)

#184 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 04:13

Great job by MW and all the other drivers between SV and FA last weekend ... hopefully they keep parting like the Red Sea for FA till the end of the season ;)

Will that be enough if Alonso keeps on finishing behind Vettel?

Alonso needs to really nail his qualifying and start alongside Vettel to exert any pressure on Vettel especially at the start. Otherwise, Vettel will stick to the same strategy that has proven successful in the last 3 races.

#185 Sakae

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:49

Well, Webber has another plans, apparently. Good for him, but I hope Sebastian will manage it on his own.

#186 Longtimefan

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:50

I'd love to see Mark get a good start and stay ahead of Seb, just to see how the team squirms :D



#187 H2H

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:25

I'd love to see Mark get a good start and stay ahead of Seb, just to see how the team squirms :D


Apart from your usual poor sportmanship I think the team will be as usual rather cool about it and Marks has quite a good chance to stay ahead of Seb.

As I have written many many times before Mark can help his team the most by helping himself. Tomorrow is one of those many occasions and Mark can continue to avoid to move over for Seb. :wave:

Edited by H2H, 03 November 2012 - 20:25.


#188 apoka

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:48

I'd love to see Mark get a good start and stay ahead of Seb, just to see how the team squirms :D

Shouldn't be too hard to stay in front of Vettel this time.

I hope he can finish in front of Alonso this time (I don't think their friendship goes so far that he will make it easy for him).



#189 tsk19xx

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 21:13

I fully expect this chump to bend over for Alonso again. The only thing I pray is that he doesn't take Hamilton out at the start.

#190 Brother Fox

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 23:13

Obviously sick of hiding under the bridge ... :rolleyes:

#191 black magic

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 23:27

I dont know how mark has put up this team for as long as he has.

people go on about schumacher at ferrari but I bet Horner needs a sign to remind him that vettel even has a team mate and even then in only the loosest definition. likewise newey.

I bet they even ask mark to clean sebs side of the garage

#192 Zava

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 23:30

I dont know how mark has put up this team for as long as he has.

people go on about schumacher at ferrari but I bet Horner needs a sign to remind him that vettel even has a team mate and even then in only the loosest definition. likewise newey.

I bet they even ask mark to clean sebs side of the garage

they don't ask, they order him. and he has to wash up using his tears.

#193 icecream

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 00:46

they don't ask, they order him. and he has to wash up using his tears.


:up: that is funny.

#194 steen

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 00:58

I dont know how mark has put up this team for as long as he has.

$8m, perhaps?


#195 smoothcrim

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:01

Webber is a grown man,if he doesnt like whats happened the last 4 years he should of left for another team.

It would be a different story if he hadnt of crashed in Korea.Dont blame the team,the drivers as individuals make their own choices,and to be honest i think he has been treated pretty fair.

Edited by smoothcrim, 04 November 2012 - 01:02.


#196 motorhead

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:04

I dont know how mark has put up this team for as long as he has.

people go on about schumacher at ferrari but I bet Horner needs a sign to remind him that vettel even has a team mate and even then in only the loosest definition. likewise newey.

I bet they even ask mark to clean sebs side of the garage


Maybe he could switch places with Massa who clearly equal with Alonso :cool:

#197 karne

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:48

It would be a different story if he hadnt of crashed in Korea.


No, it would be a different story if RBR hadn't tried to use team-orders to prevent him winning three in a row, and if Vettel had not been such an idiot. I wonder how the complexion of the championship would have changed if Mark HAD won three in a row?


Anyway, Mark P2, Vettel P24, Mark gets to fight for the win, Vettel probably loses his cool as soon as he gets to someone who (rightfully) fights for the track position. Mark wins, Vettel DNF, and suddenly, it's all back on. Doesn't take much.

#198 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:26

No, it would be a different story if RBR hadn't tried to use team-orders to prevent him winning three in a row, and if Vettel had not been such an idiot.

Where and when was that?

#199 icecream

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:33

No, it would be a different story if RBR hadn't tried to use team-orders to prevent him winning three in a row, and if Vettel had not been such an idiot. I wonder how the complexion of the championship would have changed if Mark HAD won three in a row?


Anyway, Mark P2, Vettel P24, Mark gets to fight for the win, Vettel probably loses his cool as soon as he gets to someone who (rightfully) fights for the track position. Mark wins, Vettel DNF, and suddenly, it's all back on. Doesn't take much.


wtf are you talking about? if mark wins & vettel dnf, mark is still very much out of the championship. its over this year for him.

also, please don't jinx mark talking crap like this.

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#200 Brother Fox

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:29

Even with Webber 2nd and Seb 24th he's racing for Seb's WDC
His main goal is to keep Alonso behind him and Vettel will make his way into the points
7-10th if he does nothing
4-6th if he hustles it