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Has the time come for Webber to start racing for Vettel's championship?


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#201 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:39

Webber winning or staying in P2 after Hamilton could certainly help Vettel indirectly, because if Alonso gets into P3 and Seb P9, we have a new day next race. This scenario is not too far fetched.

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#202 GreenMachine

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:57

They also need Webbo to score well for the WCC, as well keep Ferdy behind.

#203 karne

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:34

Where and when was that?


Turkey 2010.

wtf are you talking about? if mark wins & vettel dnf, mark is still very much out of the championship. its over this year for him.

also, please don't jinx mark talking crap like this.


I certainly don't want to jinx Mark. But if Vettel scores 0 points and Mark scores 25, he closes the gap, doesn't he? There's 75 maximum points on the table with a 73 gap. Therefore, it's not over.

#204 Zava

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:38

Turkey 2010.

I thought that was the race where red bull used a faulty anti roll bar to prevent Seb from taking pole?  ;)

#205 DarthWillie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:48

I certainly don't want to jinx Mark. But if Vettel scores 0 points and Mark scores 25, he closes the gap, doesn't he? There's 75 maximum points on the table with a 73 gap. Therefore, it's not over.

unless Alonso scores more than 16 points more than Mark, then he is out.

#206 sv401

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:55

unless Alonso scores more than 16 points more than Mark, then he is out.


I would not be surprised by a HAM-ALO-WEB result at the end of the race.

#207 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 13:06

I hoped he would hold up Alonso for a bit longer than a few metres.

#208 tarmac

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:39

The Webber pitstop was pretty blatant order from someone to get him out of Vettels way. Put him in traffic

#209 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:44

The Webber pitstop was pretty blatant order from someone to get him out of Vettels way. Put him in traffic

He clearly wasn't going to give way for Vettel. Lol.

#210 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:56

Yes they had no problems f*cking Mark over today, but at the same time Mark's actions in not letting Seb through pushed RBR into making that call. So Mark can at least partly blame himself for being too stubborn.

#211 sharo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:57

I hoped he would hold up Alonso for a bit longer than a few metres.

At that stage of the battle it's not time to play macho.

#212 H2H

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:57

He clearly wasn't going to give way for Vettel. Lol.


So much for direct help from Mark, even when the teammate driving behind him was on fresher tyres and the pit stop near to jump Perez....

Edited by H2H, 04 November 2012 - 15:58.


#213 DarthWillie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:13

Well, he's out of it, so now I think he should help.

#214 sosidge

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:25

Well, he's out of it, so now I think he should help.


He won't though. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. The only time Webber drove like a racer today was when Vettel had caught him up - all of a sudden, the purple sectors appear. He's a dreadful teammate, I believe the only reason they keep him on is because he knows too much about the way the team operate.

#215 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:38

So much for direct help from Mark, even when the teammate driving behind him was on fresher tyres and the pit stop near to jump Perez....

Was silly from Webber to be honest.

#216 karne

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:13

Mark had every right to defend his position.

RBR's call to deliberately sabotage his race was unforgiveable.

If Vettel is really such a bad wheel-to-wheel racer that the team has to resort to these measures to stop a wheel-to-wheel battle, then that's Vettel's problem. If Vettel wants to win this championship, he can do it on his bloody own.

#217 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:19

Get a grip, karne. :rolleyes:

They basically said to Mark on the radio 'dont hold Seb up' and Mark ignored it. What's the bigger picture here - Mark getting a 3rd / 4th / 5th, or Seb winning a third title?

RBR were within their right - given they own the cars and employ Mark - to take matters into their own hands if Mark was going to be an obstinate dick about it. They seem to have given him the best part of a lap to cede the position.

#218 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:22

Mark had every right to defend his position.

RBR's call to deliberately sabotage his race was unforgiveable.


If Mark decides to be stupid, the team has "every right" to take the one good option they´ve got left in that situation.

If Vettel is really such a bad wheel-to-wheel racer that the team has to resort to these measures to stop a wheel-to-wheel battle, then that's Vettel's problem. If Vettel wants to win this championship, he can do it on his bloody own.


Looking at today´s race, i´m not sure it is Vettel who is the worse "wheel-to-wheel racer" at Red Bull... :smoking:


#219 Brother Fox

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:22

Did he really hold Vettel up? Just going entirely off memory but I thought he was only just getting into a position to pass when Webbber got called in?


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#220 Alfisti

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:26

He held him up for a solid half a lap. If he were my employee I'd sit him down for a Please Explaiiin.

#221 karne

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:27

He held him up for a solid half a lap. If he were my employee I'd sit him down for a Please Explaiiin.


And the answer should be: "You wouldn't tell him to move if the situation was reversed, so why should I?"

#222 exogenesis1203

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:28

Mark had every right to defend his position.

RBR's call to deliberately sabotage his race was unforgiveable.

If Vettel is really such a bad wheel-to-wheel racer that the team has to resort to these measures to stop a wheel-to-wheel battle, then that's Vettel's problem. If Vettel wants to win this championship, he can do it on his bloody own.

Considering Mark can't even get pass Maldonado, that's a bit rich. But oh well, one would expect no less from you karne.

#223 dave34m

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:28

Get a grip, karne. :rolleyes:

They basically said to Mark on the radio 'dont hold Seb up' and Mark ignored it. What's the bigger picture here - Mark getting a 3rd / 4th / 5th, or Seb winning a third title?

RBR were within their right - given they own the cars and employ Mark - to take matters into their own hands if Mark was going to be an obstinate dick about it. They seem to have given him the best part of a lap to cede the position.

Well said.

#224 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:29

He held him up for a solid half a lap. If he were my employee I'd sit him down for a Please Explaiiin.



It was basically two laps (the lap in which Mark pitted and the lap before).

Edited by LiJu914, 05 November 2012 - 03:29.


#225 Brother Fox

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:30

Cool! Agree then he shouldve made it easier after he'd been told to.



#226 repete

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:31

And the answer should be: "You wouldn't tell him to move if the situation was reversed, so why should I?"

if the points and situation were reversed, you bet your ass they would say the same to vettel.

#227 dave34m

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:32

And the answer should be: "You wouldn't tell him to move if the situation was reversed, so why should I?"

Crikey, yeah lets just hand the WDC to Ferrari. You know MW is in a team, the same team that pays him very well I imagine

#228 Kingshark

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:34

Webber is helping Vettel win this championship indirectly.

Guys, read this:

http://www.f1fanatic...ber-safety-car/

:smoking:

#229 karne

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:36

if the points and situation were reversed, you bet your ass they would say the same to vettel.


No, they wouldn't!

In 2010 when Webber was quite a way ahead, Red Bull were very quick to claim they'd never use team orders and they would let the drivers race blah blah blah. Which I fully approved of because I loathe team orders.

The very next year, not even halfway through the season, they order Webber to not overtake Vettel (though he was clearly faster) when Vettel already had a ridiculously huge lead in the championship.

They are hypocrites, total hypocrites.

#230 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:41

No, they wouldn't!

In 2010 when Webber was quite a way ahead, Red Bull were very quick to claim they'd never use team orders and they would let the drivers race blah blah blah. Which I fully approved of because I loathe team orders.

The very next year, not even halfway through the season, they order Webber to not overtake Vettel (though he was clearly faster) when Vettel already had a ridiculously huge lead in the championship.

They are hypocrites, total hypocrites.


tiny bit of difference. in 2010 both drivers were in the championship running. Today only one was at the point the call was made. If Webber was where he should have been, leading the race after Hamilton's retirement, and still in the championship running, nobody would have told him to move over.

They never "order{ed} Webber to not overtake Vettel (though he was clearly faster) when Vettel already had a ridiculously huge lead in the championship" they used the exact same standing order that Webber himself had benefited from in Turkey 2009 ie when we can't gain a position ahead of us racing between our cars stops if we are at podium positions. But this has been pointed out to you about 300 times already, I doubt you will heed it the 301st time.

Edited by engel, 05 November 2012 - 03:42.


#231 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:41

The very next year, not even halfway through the season, they order Webber to not overtake Vettel (though he was clearly faster) when Vettel already had a ridiculously huge lead in the championship.


Oh right, and they did that, because they wanted to give Vettel 3 more points. :lol:


#232 repete

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:43

No, they wouldn't!

In 2010 when Webber was quite a way ahead, Red Bull were very quick to claim they'd never use team orders and they would let the drivers race blah blah blah. Which I fully approved of because I loathe team orders.

The very next year, not even halfway through the season, they order Webber to not overtake Vettel (though he was clearly faster) when Vettel already had a ridiculously huge lead in the championship.

They are hypocrites, total hypocrites.

Vettel got a hold station in 2009.

#233 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:45

They are hypocrites, total hypocrites.


I'd like to provide you with a new tinfoil hat. I think your old one's just about on it's last legs. Perhaps you can use this new one in 2013? :|

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#234 Kelateboy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:50

He won't though. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. The only time Webber drove like a racer today was when Vettel had caught him up - all of a sudden, the purple sectors appear. He's a dreadful teammate, I believe the only reason they keep him on is because he knows too much about the way the team operate.

I noticed that too.

Did Webber ever have clear space in front of him where he could just drive without worrying about air turbulence from the car in front?

His start was once again abysmal. I thought he had the problem fixed after a string of good starts this season, but apparently not!

#235 dave34m

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:42

He won't though. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. The only time Webber drove like a racer today was when Vettel had caught him up - all of a sudden, the purple sectors appear. He's a dreadful teammate, I believe the only reason they keep him on is because he knows too much about the way the team operate.

Good post, MW is a typical Aussie with a chip on both shoulders, Lol

#236 LoudHoward

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:12

I don't get why Mark was fighting so hard to stay ahead of Seb at that point, considering Webbo had tried to let him past on the run to T1 at the start?! :confused:

#237 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:14

I don't get why Mark was fighting so hard to stay ahead of Seb at that point, considering Webbo had tried to let him past on the run to T1 at the start?! :confused:


huh?

#238 Brother Fox

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:14

:lol:

#239 apoka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:59

I don't get why Mark was fighting so hard to stay ahead of Seb at that point, considering Webbo had tried to let him past on the run to T1 at the start?! :confused:

:rotfl:

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#240 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:08

/sarcasm, engel.

#241 apoka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:09

Red Bull were very quick to claim they'd never use team orders and they would let the drivers race blah blah blah.

Not sure whether it was really a race between Vettel and Webber yesterday. They were on quite different strategies after all and Vettel was faster at that point. Even if we completely ignore the WDC, it would have made sense not hold up Vettel.

Webber's laptimes and driving suggest that he wanted to eagerly keep Vettel behind him despite knowing he is on fresher tyres. I think the preferential treatment for Vettel can't be that bad if he can do this (and not for the first time if we remember "not bad for number 2 driver") without getting huge problems with RB.


#242 Eff One 2002

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:12

Well, obviously now it has.....

#243 krapmeister

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:58

Cool! Agree then he shouldve made it easier after he'd been told to.


Well... to be fair, the radio message we heard was that 'if Seb gets a run on you don't fight him'. Now I didn't really see Seb get a run on Mark before he was called into the pits so I think it's a bit harsh to say that Mark wasn't letting him past. Sure Mark may have been trying to stay ahead of Vettel but that doesn't mean he was actually holding him up.

I believe that RBR called Mark in earlier to get him out of the way and make it easier for Seb and they were within their rights to, Mark afterall got a horrible start and then tangled with Maldo which pretty much stuffed his race and therefore any slim championship hopes he had...

Edited by krapmeister, 05 November 2012 - 10:59.


#244 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:07

Looking at today´s race, i´m not sure it is Vettel who is the worse "wheel-to-wheel racer" at Red Bull... :smoking:


I think he's always been. The "Vettel can't race" myth was mainly risen from his poles and the lack of top speed + 2 incidents in 2010. I have never gotten the feeling that Webber is that great of a racer, the only thing that I've gotten out is that he is quite a dirty defender at times.

In the last 2 years it's not even close.

#245 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:09

Well... to be fair, the radio message we heard was that 'if Seb gets a run on you don't fight him'. Now I didn't really see Seb get a run on Mark before he was called into the pits so I think it's a bit harsh to say that Mark wasn't letting him past. Sure Mark may have been trying to stay ahead of Vettel but that doesn't mean he was actually holding him up.

I believe that RBR called Mark in earlier to get him out of the way and make it easier for Seb and they were within their rights to, Mark afterall got a horrible start and then tangled with Maldo which pretty much stuffed his race and therefore any slim championship hopes he had...


I don't understand why they didn't clearly order Webber let Vettel past and then not pit either. That was the only correct thing to do with Vettel coming from behind with a different tactic and faster pace and Webber out of the title fight. A definite low point for RBR in the race.

#246 tsk19xx

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:07

I think he's always been. The "Vettel can't race" myth was mainly risen from his poles and the lack of top speed + 2 incidents in 2010. I have never gotten the feeling that Webber is that great of a racer, the only thing that I've gotten out is that he is quite a dirty defender at times.

In the last 2 years it's not even close.


Except when it comes to racing his boyfriend Alonso. How he bent over for him yesterday was an utter joke. He had a piece of the insight line, only thing he had to do was to let the car roll and block the entry for Alonso. No way for Alonso to get past or to come back get him as the corner next has no room for more than 1 car.

No matter the circumstances, Webber will never help Vettel. Bitterness runs deep in him.

Edited by tsk19xx, 05 November 2012 - 12:08.


#247 Peat

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:36

Pretty poor when a team is willing to hamper one car's race for the sake of the other.

#248 boldhakka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:32

Karne is on form and Webber never fails to provide fodder. I love it! :clap:

"Box, box, box" :lol:

#249 Diablobb81

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:44

Pretty poor when a team is willing to hamper one car's race for the sake of the other.


That's why Mark should have moved over.

#250 H2H

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:52

That's why Mark should have moved over.


:| I was going to write that.

Anyway Mark can still play a decisive role in the fight for both titles. He can only up his game in Austin and his run in Quali is actually good.