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Alonso's post Japanese GP Race comments


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#301 Kraze

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:19

FIA's double standards are once again out in the open. Alonso tried his best to push someone off the track deliberately yet no grid penalties imposed on him for next race.



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#302 Dsilence

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:38

Kimis explanation (I hadn't seen this in the thread yet):
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103215

"I was on the left hand side all the way since the very beginning of the start," said Raikkonen. "He (Alonso) kept coming left more and more. I tried to go further left but I had nowhere to go.
"They all came over on my side and touched my front wing so I couldn't go anywhere else."



#303 seahawk

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:19

It is a racing incident. Kimi could have lifted, because his position was bad if Alonso does not move towards the middle of the track. Alonso could have lifted and gone more right. Button does not need to move left either.

#304 HPT

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:12

I don't want to trawl through the entire thread, I have seen the replay many times. I don't blame Kimi - he was racing and he was squeezed a little. He could have backed off but didn't (also his right not to back off), Alonso questioned his judgment but he didn't blame Kimi. That was it. Nobody was at fault and to me it was 100% a racing incident.

Being an Alonso fan, I am a little pissed off that he made an error in judgment. It really seems like he expected Kimi to back off. He shouldn't have expected that. He is the master of the long game. He wouldn't have gained anything by driving so close to Kimi. But he is human, and he isn't infallible.

Japan is behind us. It doesn't matter whose fans think who is at fault. Nothing changes. Now on to Korea.

#305 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:07

Oh man, your confusion is mindboggling.

If you want to argue that KR wasn't at fault, do so with people who claim he was. I'm NOT one of those people.

Further, the aim to prove KR's innocence doesn't valid an attempt to liken Grosjean@Spa with Alonso@Suzuka. Such an argument remains plain stupid, whichever way you look at it.

Try next time to look beyond the burning urge to defend KR at all costs. Making silly accusations on other drivers isn't the way, in fact it hurts more than it helps.



No confusion at all, sir. You´re one of the guy twisting facts showed with graphic evidence, just as I said in the post you quoted. Read your post number 243, there you have why we're arguing: an adult with loads of video and pics evidence still deceiving himself saying things blatantly wrong about an incident because of his bias. That's pretty embarrasing, my cousin does it watching Madrid matches, but then again he's 5 yo.

And I know it's a hard thing to grasp for a heavily biased fanboy, but every incident is different, and my Belgium comparison doesn't have anything to do with defending Kimi in this one, it doesn't help in that respect at all. I don't like people pushing rivals off in straights. And, unlike you, I'll stand on the guy getting pushed whoever it is. Before you imply any more stupid stuff, have a read on the Vettel Alonso Monza incident topic. Then you can think for yourself why you stand on different sides depending on who's who in the incidents, and cry for being such a fanboy. Then read my posts, and you'll see me always on the side of those pushed out: with Alonso and Lewis in Bahrain, with di Resta first and Alonso later in Monza, with Kimi in Suzuka, with Lewis in Belgium.

Back on topic: Still waiting to read a single reason why is this different driving wise to Belgium, and why the comparison isn't good. You have any point at that respect, anything with content, useful or barely related with the issue to say? I don't lose the hope.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 08 October 2012 - 10:25.


#306 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:32

I don't want to trawl through the entire thread, I have seen the replay many times. I don't blame Kimi - he was racing and he was squeezed a little. He could have backed off but didn't (also his right not to back off), Alonso questioned his judgment but he didn't blame Kimi. That was it. Nobody was at fault and to me it was 100% a racing incident.

Being an Alonso fan, I am a little pissed off that he made an error in judgment. It really seems like he expected Kimi to back off. He shouldn't have expected that. He is the master of the long game. He wouldn't have gained anything by driving so close to Kimi. But he is human, and he isn't infallible.

Japan is behind us. It doesn't matter whose fans think who is at fault. Nothing changes. Now on to Korea.


You see guys? It's not that hard to do. Here's a man accepting his driver made a mistake. Even if I can't see why, I know it's hard for some of you to do this, but give it a try.

#307 Taxi

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:44

Racing incident. Alonso could have been more cautious not squeezing Kimi though. They where side by side and Kimi had nowhere to to go. It all would turn out well to Fernando and he would be in front of kimi but... in an instinctive wheel shake he touched kimi co's he felt Button near and tried to take the outside line for the corner. There was another car at his left who was getting behind but still there. Misjudgment but perfectly normal in that circumstance.

#308 peroa

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:48

Meh, sh** happens, they're not robots.

#309 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:17

No confusion at all, sir. You´re one of the guy twisting facts showed with graphic evidence, just as I said in the post you quoted. Read your post number 243, there you have why we're arguing: an adult with loads of video and pics evidence still deceiving himself saying things blatantly wrong about an incident because of his bias. That's pretty embarrasing, my cousin does it watching Madrid matches, but then again he's 5 yo.

And I know it's a hard thing to grasp for a heavily biased fanboy, but every incident is different, and my Belgium comparison doesn't have anything to do with defending Kimi in this one, it doesn't help in that respect at all. I don't like people pushing rivals off in straights. And, unlike you, I'll stand on the guy getting pushed whoever it is. Before you imply any more stupid stuff, have a read on the Vettel Alonso Monza incident topic. Then you can think for yourself why you stand on different sides depending on who's who in the incidents, and cry for being such a fanboy. Then read my posts, and you'll see me always on the side of those pushed out: with Alonso and Lewis in Bahrain, with di Resta first and Alonso later in Monza, with Kimi in Suzuka, with Lewis in Belgium.

Back on topic: Still waiting to read a single reason why is this different driving wise to Belgium, and why the comparison isn't good. You have any point at that respect, anything with content, useful or barely related with the issue to say? I don't lose the hope.


The "back on topic" in the last third doesn't mitigate the rest of that drivel at all, I'm afraid. What's your problem, "everyone agree with me 100 percent, else I'll start to rant and get personal", or what?

Why I should I care to research what you posted elsehwere, or how your judgement fluctuates? :yawnface: I know enough just reading the above and making that idiotic comparison of the incidents in Spa and Suzuka.

The differences between the incidents are so obvious, I feel embarassed having to point them out to you. Well, I shouldn't, it's not me being obtuse, but still.

For a start, the whole dynamic is incomparable. Grosjean sweeps across the track within a tenth or two and crashes into Hamilton, his sidepod against Hamiltons front wheel. In Suzuka, Alonso moves slower across the track and not as far, while KR never is further alongside than tip-of-frontwing vs. Alonsos rearwheel. In fact both KR and Alonso cleared the situation without crashing into eachother, which I would call quite a difference to Grosjean&Hamilton@Spa. KR just clipped Alonsos tyre and flattened it which led to Alonso losing the car a few metres down the road.

If that's all the same to you, I can't help it.

#310 Oho

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:24

Alonso moves slower across the track and not as far, while KR never is further alongside than tip-of-frontwing vs. Alonsos rearwheel.


No Räikkönen must have been much further along side before hitting dirt as the inevitable loss of momentum for loosing traction would otherwise have made the consequent contact almost impossible.

Edited by Oho, 08 October 2012 - 12:31.


#311 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:28

You keep arguing semantics. I'm asking for content. Cmon.

What makes Alonso's driving into turn one different to Grosjean's at Spa?

At Spa, Hamilton couldn't move to the right because there was a wall there, so he had to stay on track and that led to the contact.
At Japan, Kimi had grass, so when Alonso pushed him out of the track, the finn could do something in order to avoid the collision. Despite of this, Alonso then decided to chop him a bit too early, which led to the puncture.


#312 Skellen

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:34

Kimi widows and trolls rejoice! Finally Alonso gave a reason to bash him in this season! It was almost like waiting for christmas, wasn't it? Seemed never to come, but now it is here!



Seriusly, some people here need to get a grip.

#313 engel

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:37

At Spa, Hamilton couldn't move to the right because there was a wall there, so he had to stay on track and that led to the contact.
At Japan, Kimi had grass, so when Alonso pushed him out of the track, the finn could do something in order to avoid the collision. Despite of this, Alonso then decided to chop him a bit too early, which led to the puncture.


you are wrong. There is grass in front of the wall in Spa, that's why Lewis actually went sideways and not straight at the wall, he floored it and the car snapped. But that's irrelevant, forcing the other guy on to the grass is not "ok"

And no I don't think Spa and Suzuka are similar, in Spa Grosjean actually punted Hamilton and caused the chain event, in Suzuka Alonso just clipped Kimi's front wing, there's a huge amount of difference between clipping a front wing and making full contact with the other guy's radiator.

#314 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:41

you are wrong. There is grass in front of the wall in Spa, that's why Lewis actually went sideways and not straight at the wall, he floored it and the car snapped. But that's irrelevant, forcing the other guy on to the grass is not "ok"

And no I don't think Spa and Suzuka are similar, in Spa Grosjean actually punted Hamilton and caused the chain event, in Suzuka Alonso just clipped Kimi's front wing, there's a huge amount of difference between clipping a front wing and making full contact with the other guy's radiator.

Where would have Alonso made contact with Kimi had Kimi not moved outside of the track?

#315 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:47

You see guys? It's not that hard to do. Here's a man accepting his driver made a mistake. Even if I can't see why, I know it's hard for some of you to do this, but give it a try.

Maybe not everybody sees it like them?

A lot of times you cant see why these differences of opinion happen because you're not entirely objective yourself.

#316 seahawk

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:49

In Spa Hamilton was ahead and Grosjean drove into his side. In Japan Alonso clearly was ahead and hit Kimi´s front wing with his rear tire.

#317 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:51

you are wrong. There is grass in front of the wall in Spa, that's why Lewis actually went sideways and not straight at the wall, he floored it and the car snapped. But that's irrelevant, forcing the other guy on to the grass is not "ok"

And no I don't think Spa and Suzuka are similar, in Spa Grosjean actually punted Hamilton and caused the chain event, in Suzuka Alonso just clipped Kimi's front wing, there's a huge amount of difference between clipping a front wing and making full contact with the other guy's radiator.


:up: That's the point I'm discussing, the dissimilarity between the two incidents.

If and to what degree one blames Alonso for the Suzuka start is another matter. Actually I think he could (should) have been more careful, but the same can be said for Kimi. IMO both didn't have anything to gain by running so close, both could have been wiser (Alonso by leaving more room, KR by lifiting a millisecond), it was an uneccessary risk, and Alonso paid the price for that.

But I wouldn't talk of blame, or fault, for either KR and FA. It was just as close as it's often is at starts, sometimes it's bound to wrong without necessarily one of the participants being a dickhead, like RG in Spa.

#318 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:57

Where would have Alonso made contact with Kimi had Kimi not moved outside of the track?


Nowhere. KR was always bound to need to brake earlier, that much on the outside. The touch itself didn't cause any of the two to crash, just the cut tyre did with Alonso, but 50 metres down the road (at which point KR was 15 metres behind).

Again, the contact didn't directly make either of them crash. Unlike <cough>, to the Spa incident.

#319 bub

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:05

I am very surprised by Fernando's attitude, he was to blame, he is leading the championship without problems and he had everything to lose by being careless and overly aggressive, it's clear Kimi was one wheel on the grass and got nowhere to go.

Fernando should have been patient and the race would have come to him, I am a big fan of him but he was to blame today.


Agreed. If Alonso had not squeezed Kimi he probably would have got 2nd place.

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#320 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:10

No Räikkönen must have been much further along side before hitting dirt as the inevitable loss of momentum for loosing traction would otherwise have made the consequent contact almost impossible.


From the footage you can see (no room for interpretation, really) that he was never more alongside that f/w to rear wheel. In fact what is open to interpretation is at what point there was the contact which cut Alonsos tyre. I'm just re-watching the start on iPlayer and it's inconclusive, there could have been contact when KR has his wobble, or already a second before that, when they appear just as close.

#321 Oho

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:14

From the footage you can see (no room for interpretation, really) that he was never more alongside that f/w to rear wheel....


Yeah right....

http://www.youtube.c...oESZe0mCs#t=29s

Räikkönen may have been able to avoid the incident but the onus to do so lied with Alonso who instigated the whole situation and denied Räikkönen room on track.

Edited by Oho, 08 October 2012 - 13:30.


#322 Taxi

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:18

Please lets not compare Fernando Alonso's driving with Romain Grosjean. Alonso is always responsible, fair and not reckless. That's why he's in front of the championship. Ye made a slight mistake yesterday and payed more than he deserved for it. Others where unlucky before he had is share at Spa and Suzuka. Only Kimi has been quite lucky this year.

#323 Torsion

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:23

In Spa Hamilton was ahead and Grosjean drove into his side. In Japan Alonso clearly was ahead and hit Kimi´s front wing with his rear tire.


Are you sure Hamilton was ahead?

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#324 seahawk

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:27

Are you sure Hamilton was ahead?

Posted Image


Sorry my bad. The two crashes are similar indeed. Race ban for Alonso. :clap:

#325 sharo

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:31

This is the secondary hit. They had their wheels interlocked at the moment RG came close.

#326 ZZei

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:33

I think the biggest fuss should come from alonso blaming raikkonen for the situation. But then again when you watch what he really said, he was saying he didnt expect raikkonen to be there and didnt understand him being there. I disagree and think kimi had all the rights to be where he was, but then again the interview was just after he's crashed so you can expect these kind of answers. Maybe after alonso sees the replay on the situation, hes opinion might change. But in this mediahyped f1 there are huge writings about alonso and kimi blaming eachother, when both just merely say their point of view having just stepped out of the car.

I would call it a racing incident, but alonso had plenty of space right to him before button decided to come there. Alonso slighty overreacted to buttons move, which then resulted in kimis frontwing touching the rear of alonso. And to those saying kimi was never alongside alonso, he was just before alonso started closing the door. So if one should be blamed its alonso, but then again its easy to say having watched the replay many times, when in reality they are racing at high speeds where a slight misjudgement can cause big things. But a racing incident it is.

#327 Torsion

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:37

From the footage you can see (no room for interpretation, really) that he was never more alongside that f/w to rear wheel. In fact what is open to interpretation is at what point there was the contact which cut Alonsos tyre. I'm just re-watching the start on iPlayer and it's inconclusive, there could have been contact when KR has his wobble, or already a second before that, when they appear just as close.


I think he was certainly more alongside Fernando than you suggest.

Posted Image


#328 sharo

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:42

Although the thread is about the post race comments about what is IMO a clear racing incident, not even investigated by the stewards AFAIK, I'd like to point to the following - Nothing, no rule or any other formal norm, put an obligation on Kimi to lift or leave the track to make place. He was driving along a chosen path from the start and didn't change it the least. It is the attacking driver who is obliged to overtake without squeezing, hitting or otherwise physically obstructing the other, assuring enough space and speed difference to put his car in front. It is only the personal judgement of the attacked driver which can make him deliberately make place. This is the underlying principle in overtaking rules - when attacked, you do not lift and make space but rather not change line and direction.
I guess in this particular case Kimi's personal judgement was that Alonso has more to lose.

#329 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:43

I think he was certainly more alongside Fernando than you suggest.

Posted Image


I thought we were talking about the point when Alonso didn't leave enough room anymore? The pic is some metres before that happened.

#330 as65p

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:48

Yeah right....

http://www.youtube.c...oESZe0mCs#t=29s

Räikkönen may have been able to avoid the incident but the onus to do so lied with Alonso who instigated the whole situation and denied Räikkönen room on track.


Nice footage. :D

What you can see, however, is that indeed the contact that cut the tyre appears to have been right at the end. You can also see that KR has (just) all tyres on the tarmac up onto that moment. Sure Alonso could have given more room, but the question what KR was trying to do, that much on the outside, is also valid. They seem to travel at the same speed for quite some distance, it's not as if KR had more momentum.

#331 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:49

Although the thread is about the post race comments about what is IMO a clear racing incident, not even investigated by the stewards AFAIK, I'd like to point to the following - Nothing, no rule or any other formal norm, put an obligation on Kimi to lift or leave the track to make place. He was driving along a chosen path from the start and didn't change it the least. It is the attacking driver who is obliged to overtake without squeezing, hitting or otherwise physically obstructing the other, assuring enough space and speed difference to put his car in front. It is only the personal judgement of the attacked driver which can make him deliberately make place. This is the underlying principle in overtaking rules - when attacked, you do not lift and make space but rather not change line and direction.
I guess in this particular case Kimi's personal judgement was that Alonso has more to lose.

:up:

#332 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:51

9 pages, really?

#333 Konsta

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:53

:up: That's the point I'm discussing, the dissimilarity between the two incidents.

If and to what degree one blames Alonso for the Suzuka start is another matter. Actually I think he could (should) have been more careful, but the same can be said for Kimi. IMO both didn't have anything to gain by running so close, both could have been wiser (Alonso by leaving more room, KR by lifiting a millisecond), it was an uneccessary risk, and Alonso paid the price for that.

But I wouldn't talk of blame, or fault, for either KR and FA. It was just as close as it's often is at starts, sometimes it's bound to wrong without necessarily one of the participants being a dickhead, like RG in Spa.


I just don't understand what Kimi could've done more - Fernando squeezed him off track while coming across the field left to right. All the time you have to leave the room...FA did not leave the room and it backfired bigger than expected. Could be a mistake on translation but when exactly was Jenson on Fernando's left...?

"I had no space on the right, I had Button I think on my left, I had Kimi... and I don't understand why Kimi didn't lift off or anything because there was not any room," Alonso said of the first corner fracas.

"I don't know what Kimi's idea was for the first corner, but that is the way it is and this time it was bad luck for us."

Edited by Konsta, 08 October 2012 - 13:56.


#334 Torsion

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:56

I thought we were talking about the point when Alonso didn't leave enough room anymore? The pic is some metres before that happened.


As I highlighted when quoting your earlier post, you mentioned that Kimi's F/W was never further than Fernando's rear tire - which prompted my post. Anyway I think the fact is that, when Fernando squeezed Kimi, he certainly had a significant part of the car alongside (i.e. according to the latest FIA rulebook), means that running him out of road in the first place was not fair. Once on the grass, Kimi looses traction, and looses control for a bit. In my view it is pretty unfair to say that he should have lifted, as in my view, he has done all he could to avoid the situation.

I actually think that the puncture actually happened when Fernando moved left the second time, as a reaction to Button moving closer on the other side. In my view Fernando didn't expect Kimi to be still there on the left, similar to what happened to Romain in Spa, of course in this instance, by this time Kimi only had his front wing alongside Fernando's rear tire. Even if Kimi wanted to, I don't think he had time to react to this second move by Fernando, as he was coming back on to the track after his adventure in the grass.

I think it was a minor misjudgement on Fernando's part - nothing else.



#335 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:59

This thread is no longer discussing Alonso's comments and is too far gone to return to the topic