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Would Grosjean learn from another ban?


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194 replies to this topic

Poll: Would it change anything if he was banned again? (292 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think he should receive another ban?

  1. Yes (114 votes [39.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.18%

  2. No (177 votes [60.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.82%

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#101 Clatter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:55

Perhaps this all points to a deficiency in the role of the feeder series in training/filtering drivers for F1. As I mentioned a few posts back, the reverse grid in GP2 seems like it would address this, but for some reason it has not.


How many other drivers have had a problem stepping up? The feeder series are not the problem, the driver is.


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#102 phil1993

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:58

Well, I tried to be objective here:
http://www.f1zone.ne...grosjean/16076/

But it's still difficult to think of a solution.

#103 scheivlak

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:01

JA got it spot on.

James doesn't give his own opinion there.

He's just reporting Mark Webber's opinion and that of some unnamed other drivers.

#104 davies85

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:05

Hi would learn from his super license being revoked or rejected for next season... only a matter of time before he causes injury to himself or another driver or worse case spectator/steward.

surely the FIA should be looking into this more seriously

Has he had issues like this in any other formula that we know of?

#105 King Six

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:07

Will Grosjean learn from a race ban? No. Drivers learn from experience. This wasn't a life threatening crash, it was a silly crash, a misjudgement, something that either deserved the 10 sec stop go or a 10 place grid demotion for the next race. Yes he keeps making these mistakes but he's not gonna learn if he isn't there to experience the opening lap. Keep him racing, get the kid some experience. He's fast, he's got the talent. Just not any intuition when regarding other drivers behaviour on an opening lap. He'll learn, with time.

Remember he's a rookie.

This is ridiculous though, that weak ass argument would be said maybe after he had done it a few times. 3 tops. This is number 8. EIGHT. You guys didn't say it after 4. 5. 6. 7 he got a ban. Comes back 8. People say he still needs more chances and banning won't help him.

Is this how weak F1 is right now, some guy that has crashed 8/14 times on the first lap, for a upper-midfield-front running team, is still in with a seat because there is nobody better. Come on.

I honestly can't believe people are saying give him more chances when this is his eighth time in a single season that still has 5 races left, feels like I'm living in crazy land.

Edited by King Six, 07 October 2012 - 17:08.


#106 intelligentsia

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:17

Grosjean is a rookie there must be room for improvement. However all of his incidents are because he doesn't know where the other cars are, on the track. It is obviously a spacial awareness issue. I am just not sure if spacial awareness is something that one could really learn. I would assume that it is something you are born with, you either have it or you dont. In the lower categories there are usually only one or two really good drivers at time. It is much more competitive in F1. But then again this is obviously something that Lotus would understand better.

#107 garoidb

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:22

How many other drivers have had a problem stepping up? The feeder series are not the problem, the driver is.


The feeder series did not highlight this issue with his racing capabilities. The feeder series may be the problem if the drivers they bring to prominence have not been properly vetted. Grosjean is here because of his performances and achievements in GP2.

#108 Clatter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:31

The feeder series did not highlight this issue with his racing capabilities. The feeder series may be the problem if the drivers they bring to prominence have not been properly vetted. Grosjean is here because of his performances and achievements in GP2.


I'd agree at pointing the finger if it were happening to multiple drivers, but not when it's just the one.

#109 Sakae

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:55

It is hard to comprehend where is FiA on this issue. What kind of safety related investigation was conducted (and we haven't heard of it)? One accident, Ok, two, maybe, but there were many more and only when WDC contenders were taken out, he receives a ban which is not help at all. Has anyone requested of Lotus to conduct case assessment, including medical examination, that this driver is physically able to retain F1 licence?

Edited by Sakae, 07 October 2012 - 17:56.


#110 handel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:02

Tbh he was unlucky today. Huge closing speed between him and Webber but Roman didn't appear to be understeering wildly. He's lacking spatial awareness for sure, but at the heart of the problem is the fact that he drives the opening lap like it's Q3.

He needs to be shown some race starts from other drivers and understand why most of them gain & lose positions on lap 1. 80% of the time it's not outright pace, simply positioning, planning & a bit of luck. Massa for example I think it right up at the top I think of the charts in terms of positions gained but he's hardly the fastest driver out there.

In short - It's fixable.

#111 Mauseri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:06

Grosjean is a rookie there must be room for improvement. However all of his incidents are because he doesn't know where the other cars are, on the track. It is obviously a spacial awareness issue. I am just not sure if spacial awareness is something that one could really learn. I would assume that it is something you are born with, you either have it or you dont. In the lower categories there are usually only one or two really good drivers at time. It is much more competitive in F1. But then again this is obviously something that Lotus would understand better.

Maybe something similar to J-M Latvala rolling his rally car. These drivers are fast, but a lapse of concentration in the wrong place...

Maybe they lack confidence, total focus or something.

One thing is certain Alonso does not question himself for his mistakes. If you do it you start losing.

Edited by Mauseri, 07 October 2012 - 18:07.


#112 garoidb

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:19

I'd agree at pointing the finger if it were happening to multiple drivers, but not when it's just the one.


I give you Pastor Maldonado :) (OK, he has a different issue - I agree).

#113 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:24

James doesn't give his own opinion there.

He's just reporting Mark Webber's opinion and that of some unnamed other drivers.

Thank you. Webber can loosemouth a bit in the heat of the moment. I think he is wrong here*. This is not an unsolvable problem. Important thing to note is Grosjean is actually trying to be very cautious during the start these days. One possible solution is to drive a bit consciously slower than other even if it means losing a few places. Just coast through the start. To be prepared for sudden stops, go a bit slower already. Nobody can find fault with him for being too slow in the starts. Gradually he would forget this phase, and may be fine. It would be a tough learning phase to lose the places hard-earned in qualy. But this is not an unsolvable problem.

handel: Good points!

* Point to note: Webber himself is a bad starter. :p So, he may not be so well-versed on what makes a driver tick during starts.

Edited by SpaMaster, 07 October 2012 - 18:30.


#114 ryan86

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:32

The problem for Grosjean is that with every accident, his nervosity only goes up.


I agree with this.

The only way to probably solve the problem IMO, is probably have Grosjean start as many GP's as possible and hope that he doesn't crash at the start, and that we can go as we arrive in New Jersey and say, you know what, the only incident Grosjean has had since Japan last year was at Montreal.

I think a bit last Torres the past year. He went through that 6 months when he couldn't score and the pressure became more and more, so much so that when a chance did present itself, it began to play on his mind that he hadn't scored and that he must score soon. Then he got too largely irrelevant goals in an FA Cup match and a few weeks later the goals started coming back, including a vital one against Barcelona and top scorer at Euro 2012.

Because like Torres, who began to doubt he could score, so the more he missed, or Hamilton/Massa who began to doubt they could reach each other cleanly and so conspired to crash into each other at every race for a period last year, I think Grosjean will begin to doubt he can start the race cleanly and therefore lead to more accidents.

#115 Tardis40

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:41

This comment is just ignorant. F1 is not too quick for him. Look at the lap times. Also the starts are much more hectic at GP2.


It isn't a question of lap time. It's his inability to process information and make split second decisions correctly. He's fine when he's running unmolested, but not is a pack.



#116 Laster

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:47

This is ridiculous though, that weak ass argument would be said maybe after he had done it a few times. 3 tops. This is number 8. EIGHT. You guys didn't say it after 4. 5. 6. 7 he got a ban. Comes back 8. People say he still needs more chances and banning won't help him.

Is this how weak F1 is right now, some guy that has crashed 8/14 times on the first lap, for a upper-midfield-front running team, is still in with a seat because there is nobody better. Come on.

I honestly can't believe people are saying give him more chances when this is his eighth time in a single season that still has 5 races left, feels like I'm living in crazy land.


Like i said he has got the talent, it's not a case of there's nobody better to drive the car, he's had 3 podiums has outqualified his world championship winning and contending teammate more times than not. The pace is worthy of an F1 drive, no question! But he needs to learn how to handle himself during the opening lap of a grand prix. Almost all rookies learn to dial it back at some point or other.Yes he has crashed on that opening lap and he deserves to be punished every time but once he finally figures how to handle that opening lap he will be fine, and at some point he will work it out. The kid needs time. Until then, keep piling on the punishment for when he does crash, and take the rewards for when he doesn't. As far as being a team boss goes, i'd rather have a Grosjean or a Maldonado than a Bruno Senna.

#117 goldenboy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:19

One possible solution is to drive a bit consciously slower than other even if it means losing a few places. Just coast through the start. To be prepared for sudden stops, go a bit slower already. Nobody can find fault with him for being too slow in the starts. Gradually he would forget this phase, and may be fine. It would be a tough learning phase to lose the places hard-earned in qualy. But this is not an unsolvable problem.

completely agree. I really don't think we will see any more issues from him rest of the year, especially if he does the above.

* Point to note: Webber himself is a bad starter. :p So, he may not be so well-versed on what makes a driver tick during starts.

slow/cautious starter is completely different to consistently wiping people out on the first lap though.

#118 Bartel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:44

Add a word here and there, but he basically said that since Grosjean has proven that he is unable to learn, Renault should simply fire him and put someone who can have the job done.

And what is wrong with that? Its bloody true and thats what he's there for, not to blow rainbow kisses up the drivers' ass

#119 RC127

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 19:51

I think its about time the officials consider revoking Grosjeans F1 license.


Y'know, Yuji Ide had his superlicence revoked for a hell of a lot less..... [In other words, totally fair comment.]

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#120 Disgrace

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 20:22

I've watched my fair share of GP2 races and I have no recollection of him being especially bad at starts. He's just been overly optimistic in this season and THIS accident I believe is actually a result of him trying too hard not to crash into Perez, now that he knows everyone is out to get him. By now I think he's actually scared of doing starts.

He's been fast and stupid and the stupid can be taken out of him.


This is the nail on the head.

Grosjean has never been so clumsy at starts in other formulae. It's not like the science of a clean start changes in F1, it's the pressure.

Not all of his first lap crashes have been his fault, but somehow he is always involved. The pressure has got to him and now he's making errors he wouldn't otherwise make. He is a rookie and frankly, it's a shame when you watch the broadcasts listing the X amount of times he has been in a collision in the early laps, regardless of circumstance/fault.

Grosjean clearly has the pace; this reminds me a bit of Ralf Schumacher's early 1998 season. That driver did change very nicely for 1999.

The only saving grace is that this highlights how useless penalising driver errors are in contemporary F1 quite nicely.

Edited by Disgrace, 07 October 2012 - 20:23.


#121 kissTheApex

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:11

No, considering he's taken out Alonso, Webber and Hamilton, in the context of the WDC it's only fair he be given the opportunity to take out Button and Vettel too.

:rotfl:

There wouod lot less incidents like this if they would ban all the other cars on the track.

:rotfl: x2

Thank you. Webber can loosemouth a bit in the heat of the moment. I think he is wrong here*.
* Point to note: Webber himself is a bad starter. :p So, he may not be so well-versed on what makes a driver tick during starts.

Bad starter he may be, but rarely does he take people out with his bad starts.

All joking aside, as many pointed out, another ban will not teach him anything but will make him even more scared of the starts and he will start having a worse "self fulfilling prophecy" of even worse starts.

#122 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:40

Growjohn takes out Vettel in Korea, receives a race ban again. Suits fine :)

#123 Music Lover

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:29

The thread title and poll question suggest two different things.

Would he learn from another ban? He didn't learn from the last one this is quite clear. The guy just can't use his eyes let alone formulate a 3D picture of what is around him.

Does he deserve another ban? Yes. But as JOhnny Herbert said this needs to be taken out of the FIA's hands by the GPDA or the team. The guy is quick and talented but most of his brain fades are of such a base level that he has proven he can't race at this level, it's just too dangerous.

Lotus need to drop him unfortunately.

+1
I said many times this year he is dangerous and that it will end in tears (=personal injuries).
How many times is this going to happening without actions from FIA?
When is somebody going to stop this?
Also, the title should not be decided by him...

Edited by Music Lover, 08 October 2012 - 08:31.


#124 muelte

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:52

Alonso should get one, what he did today was the same as what Grosjean did at Spa, and if it happens to open the championship up even further...


Yeah, absolutely identical...

BTW, a bit sad about your driver retiring again? :wave:

#125 Atreiu

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:55

I don't know what should be done to him.
I detest the penalty giving culture that has taken place in F1, but, at the same time, Grosjean how blown all chances and excuses this season.
Maybe they should give him another grid penalty before another ban. I really don't know.

#126 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:00

Not a grid penalty, that means more cars in front of him. That can only end in tears.

#127 Atreiu

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:07

Not a grid penalty, that means more cars in front of him. That can only end in tears.


He has to learn sometime.
Start from the pitlane?

#128 Rob

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:46

I don't know if you can learn spatial awareness. Maybe it's just pressure. If he does it again I'd give him a three race ban. Lotus need to be forced into helping Grosjean sort his head out or replacing him.

#129 travbrad

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:17

Lotus need to be forced into helping Grosjean sort his head out or replacing him.


The crazy thing is that same team booted out Nick Heidfeld mid-season last year while he was easily beating his teammate, yet they are keeping Grosjean around this season. I'm not necessarily saying they should get rid of Grosjean, but it seems very inconsistent to get rid of a good solid driver like Heidfeld and keep one who crashes in the first lap half the time.

Without the crashes he would be having quite a good season too. He regularly out-qualifies his world champion teammate, and shows pretty good pace in the races where he doesn't crash on the first lap.

#130 Jon83

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:33

No word from anyone yet, I'm assuming the FIA are content with the 10 second stop and go penalty, which is rather incredible. I know it was 'only' Webber, but that's abit of a farce. Is it only when he takes out Alonso that anyone takes notice?

I think someone needs to remind the FIA of something called the World Constructors Championship, and how Grosjean has put a large impact on that at the top by taking out Webber who qualified 2nd.


I love the way you and a few others are trying to drag Ferrari into something which they have absolutely nothing to do with!

Paranoia is alive and well!

#131 Risil

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:21

Sticking my oar in: he overthinks, same problem Will Power has in oval racing. Insecurity possibly at the root of it. Lotus-Renault should hardly be able to believe their luck, having a driver as quick as RG (leading races, qualifying in the front two rows), with the right nationality, young, cheap. Sign him up for next year and make clear that he's shown his potential, results in 2012 no longer matter. Hopefully he could respond to that treatment.

But you can see from Lotus-Renault's 2011 season that their approach to driver management may be flawed.

#132 Wander

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:25

I think an another ban would be the worst thing you could do to him and would not help at all.

#133 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:31

I keep reading these are all caused by spatial awareness issues, but I dont see that was the issue here at all. Pretty sure he was just caught off guard by somebody in front going slower than expected while he was battling hard to keep a position against Perez. That has nothing to do with spatial awareness.

I think he knows he's as good as some of the best in the sport and he's out to put a stamp on it, but gets ahead of himself a little too much.

Edited by Seanspeed, 08 October 2012 - 12:34.


#134 F1 Tor.

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:34

Let him drive any way he wants. It would be something else to think about when preparing strategy, much like looking at the weather reports, tire choice, etc. Where is RG? :lol: Honestly, I really don't know anymore.

#135 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:40

Let him drive any way he wants. It would be something else to think about when preparing strategy, much like looking at the weather reports, tire choice, etc. Where is RG? :lol: Honestly, I really don't know anymore.

He cant keep making mistakes like this. He's really not that crashprone. This has been one of the messiest seasons for a driver, definitely, but he's got it in him to be a regular finisher. I think this one instance, Webber actually has to shoulder a bit of blame. Slowing up unexpectedly at the start of a race, 1st corner in a turn like that - that was risky already.

#136 Jimisgod

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:48

The crazy thing is that same team booted out Nick Heidfeld mid-season last year while he was easily beating his teammate, yet they are keeping Grosjean around this season. I'm not necessarily saying they should get rid of Grosjean, but it seems very inconsistent to get rid of a good solid driver like Heidfeld and keep one who crashes in the first lap half the time.


Fixed for you. :p

#137 FenderJaguar

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:55

He cant keep making mistakes like this. He's really not that crashprone. This has been one of the messiest seasons for a driver, definitely, but he's got it in him to be a regular finisher. I think this one instance, Webber actually has to shoulder a bit of blame. Slowing up unexpectedly at the start of a race, 1st corner in a turn like that - that was risky already.


Seems a lot of people don't realize that the first turn at Suzuka tightens. Seems a lot of people always want to put the blame elsewhere. Romain had plenty of time to avoid Webber yesterday. It was embarrassing to see the replay.


#138 FenderJaguar

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:58

Sign him up for next year and make clear that he's shown his potential, results in 2012 no longer matter. Hopefully he could respond to that treatment.


I think you are very right there. Get him to relax.

#139 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:03

Seems a lot of people don't realize that the first turn at Suzuka tightens. Seems a lot of people always want to put the blame elsewhere. Romain had plenty of time to avoid Webber yesterday. It was embarrassing to see the replay.

I know the corner awfully well actually. Probably done 1000's of laps there in various games.

You can see Vettel and Kobayashi ahead taking a more normal line through there. Webber slows down a bit more than them, whether on purpose or by accident, heading for a late apex. This extra slowing, in a corner like this, at the start of the race, was risky of him. I'm not saying all his fault, but I can see how that would catch somebody off-guard.

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#140 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:10

I know the corner awfully well actually. Probably done 1000's of laps there in various games.

You can see Vettel and Kobayashi ahead taking a more normal line through there. Webber slows down a bit more than them, whether on purpose or by accident, heading for a late apex. This extra slowing, in a corner like this, at the start of the race, was risky of him. I'm not saying all his fault, but I can see how that would catch somebody off-guard.


Someone taking Webber's line on the 2nd-53rd laps might catch someone off guard, but if a driver is caught off guard by that on the first lap, there is a serious problem. Webber didn't cut him off or close the door on him. On the first corner (or set of corners) on the first lap, every driver isn't on the racing line, and aren't all running the same speed. Running into someone from behind while under breaking is one thing, but accelerating into the back of another car shows a complete lack of awareness of one's surroundings.




#141 jals99

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 15:13

The crazy thing is that same team booted out Nick Heidfeld mid-season last year while he was easily beating his teammate,

???Easily beating?
Heidfeld was close with Vitaly on points 34-32, while Vitaly was easily beating him on quals 8-3


#142 MinT

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:27

He cant keep making mistakes like this. He's really not that crashprone. .


He had multiple crashes in his first F1 stint - he just saved most of them for a bit later in the race is all....

#143 John Player

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:31

Maybe he has some health problem.

#144 Bartel

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:30

He is not worthy of a drive at Lotus, farm him out to a lower team til he learns how not to crash into people. Switch him with Kovalainen.

#145 dionisi

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:48

I don't think he deserves Crashjean title. But Boulier's interview seems too idiot. After 2011 where he pointed every miserable Petrov's and Senna's mistake "we will talk to Romain" Seems not that legit.

#146 King Six

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 20:52

I just realised how stupid this poll is. First you ask if he would learn from another ban. Then you ask if he should receive another ban. Those are two entirely different questions.

Do I think he deserves a ban? Yes.

Would he learn from it? No.

I think this is how most people have voted, and now it looks like everyone doesn't want Grosjean to be punished. :/

#147 Avastrol

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:06

Maybe he should take Kimi out next. And not in a nice first date kind of way*. Heads will roll then.

I think it'd be a shame if he didn't get a seat next year if only because of his speed and talent, although admittedly he's been such an idiot this year. I want the probation period to start next year - and that he gets a seat, in the first place. It's also a bit sad seeing someone being given the Marco Simoncelli treatment. If reports are right they look like deflated dogs after yet another incident, calls for a race ban getting to their heads.

*lifted off somewhere

#148 HappyPhantom

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:16

I just realised how stupid this poll is. First you ask if he would learn from another ban. Then you ask if he should receive another ban. Those are two entirely different questions.

Do I think he deserves a ban? Yes.

Would he learn from it? No.

I think this is how most people have voted, and now it looks like everyone doesn't want Grosjean to be punished. :/


I didn't vote like that. I voted no because he already had a penalty in the race. To me it doesn't make sense to give a penalty during the race and then one after for the same offence. If the stewards thought he was really out of line and wanted to punish him more severely they should have black flagged him (I think it is) and he be out of the race. (Although I'm not certain when exactly the stewards can black flag a driver)

#149 Craven Morehead

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:18

I wouldn't keep him at Lotus next year. Put Kobayashi in there.


:up: Was thinking the same thing. Raik. & Koba would be a pretty good team I think.

#150 Burtros

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 21:20

Grosjean is one of the most mixed charaters to come into F1 in a long time.

Shown his class and his speed, but then again theres this. I like the bloke but he needs to sort it out and very very fast IMHO.