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5 races to go. Vettel 3x WDC?


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Poll: Who will win the 2012 WDC? (445 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win the 2012 WDC?

  1. Alonso (75 votes [16.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.89%

  2. Vettel (307 votes [69.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.14%

  3. Hamilton (32 votes [7.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.21%

  4. Raikkonen (22 votes [4.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.95%

  5. Webber (5 votes [1.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.13%

  6. Button (3 votes [0.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.68%

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#251 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:25

I'd be surprised if Vettel doesn't become the WDC this year. He has everything working on his favours. Tracks that the Red Bull has always been good at and not to forget how brilliant and utterly dominant he was in all the circuits we have left to go to. On the other hand, I feel sorry for Alonso. He has been the best driver on the grid this year and Lewis comes 2nd in that respect but neither of them can win it this year. It has to be Vettel for all the bookies unless Ferrari gives Alonso a far better car or Hamilton really ups his game and wins 3 out of the remaining 5 races.



The difference between Alonso and Vettel and Hamilton has been the amount of PR about the car being slow that both Ferrari and FA have done. That and Ferrari's better performance under wet conditions have resulted in FA being overrated this year vs. Vettel and Hamilton.

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#252 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:27

No one's won the title yet.

No one's guaranteed anything.

One car failure, one grid penalty, one touch by another driver, one error ... they can tip the scales in a huge way.

I doubt Vettel will be uncorking the WDC champagne until his car crosses the line in a championship-winning postion at the title-deciding race. That's if he'll be doing that!

It's been down to the last race, heck even the last corner, more often than not since Hamilton and Vettel have been on the grid and they know it. Alonso, ever the relentless competitor, also knows it.

Brink of Korea! :)

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 09 October 2012 - 16:30.


#253 Tauhid

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:38

The difference between Alonso and Vettel and Hamilton has been the amount of PR about the car being slow that both Ferrari and FA have done. That and Ferrari's better performance under wet conditions have resulted in FA being overrated this year vs. Vettel and Hamilton.


He won 3 races before anyone else, sure he benefited from some weird FIA decisions and also the unpredictable weather conditions but it takes a genuinely fast & smart driver to capitalize on everyone else's failures. Let's not forget he has had 2 DNF's already and I was never an Alonso fan but I support him because he drives for my team and also because he has become a much more likable character in recent years once he matured a bit. The Red Car was crap from the start of the season, I agree that it became much faster than people think in the middle of the season but even then the McLaren and the Red Bull at some circuits have been the much better car. Alonso makes up the most places in the start of the race while Lewis and Vettel has had a much faster car to put it on pole and win some truly dominant races. For me none of the wins Vettel has recorded this year has been sensational. I would rate few of the races he scored podiums on, much higher than the wins. Bahrain and Japan, his car was untouchable. Singapore, he wouldn't have won it if not for Lewis' car breaking down.

Almost the same for Lewis. Other than Canada and Barcelona(where he scored a brilliant 8th position starting from dead last), no other race wins of his has been truly brilliant. Canada, he came back after the disappointment from Qualifying to beat all the other drivers in the race. I saw it live at the circuit and I could sense how he was truly determined to win the race. It felt like he won the championship. Alonso on the other hand recorded 2 of the best race wins I have seen. Capitalizing on everyone's mistakes and winning them in front of your home crowd and having a laugh at it after the race. It looked like a miracle had happened.

#254 Creepy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:48

Alonso will bounce back. Never write-off this guy.


This.

However, I'd like if people wrote him off already. That would make his win (if) even more enjoyable.

#255 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:58

He won 3 races before anyone else, sure he benefited from some weird FIA decisions and also the unpredictable weather conditions but it takes a genuinely fast & smart driver to capitalize on everyone else's failures. Let's not forget he has had 2 DNF's already and I was never an Alonso fan but I support him because he drives for my team and also because he has become a much more likable character in recent years once he matured a bit. The Red Car was crap from the start of the season, I agree that it became much faster than people think in the middle of the season but even then the McLaren and the Red Bull at some circuits have been the much better car. Alonso makes up the most places in the start of the race while Lewis and Vettel has had a much faster car to put it on pole and win some truly dominant races. For me none of the wins Vettel has recorded this year has been sensational. I would rate few of the races he scored podiums on, much higher than the wins. Bahrain and Japan, his car was untouchable. Singapore, he wouldn't have won it if not for Lewis' car breaking down.

Almost the same for Lewis. Other than Canada and Barcelona(where he scored a brilliant 8th position starting from dead last), no other race wins of his has been truly brilliant. Canada, he came back after the disappointment from Qualifying to beat all the other drivers in the race. I saw it live at the circuit and I could sense how he was truly determined to win the race. It felt like he won the championship. Alonso on the other hand recorded 2 of the best race wins I have seen. Capitalizing on everyone's mistakes and winning them in front of your home crowd and having a laugh at it after the race. It looked like a miracle had happened.


Not saying FA has not driven well but that his and Ferrari's constant bringing the car down (and I mean after every single race weekend), added to the bad performance of the car during the pre-season, have created this distorted image of the true capabilities of the car and made it seem as if Alonso was driving much better than his title contenders. Wins like Valencia, although they were emotional and gave the impression that the driver had done a lot, were more due to a fair amount of luck, with others abandoning in front and the SC playing a big role. Others were simply a case of the Ferrari being the best car in the rain. So, again, not saying that FA has not driven well, but that his and Ferrari's self promotion have done a lot to put him in a favourable light vs. his WDC contenders.


#256 UPRC

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:05

This post is a joke, right?

I mean, you do realize that there was a 33 point swing at Valencia where poor Vettel's alternator went, turning a dominant lead into an Alonso win.

At best, Alonso would have gotten 18 points at Valencia had the alternators in the Renault engines of Vettel and Grosjean not gone.

The alternator in Vettel's Renault engine also went at Monza.

And why are you saying Grosjean is costing Alonso the title?

Grosjean took out Webber at Suzuka and he also took out Hamilton at Spa. McLaren won at Spa with Button...so Grosjean, in the end, has hurt Hamilton and Webber just as much as Alonso.

The logic in your post is flawed. If Grosjean takes out Vettel in one of the remaining races, then - to redress all balance - the Ferrari's engine should blow in 2 of the remaining 5 races too.


I actually forgot all about Valencia for some reason.

#257 discover23

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:13

Not saying FA has not driven well but that his and Ferrari's constant bringing the car down (and I mean after every single race weekend), added to the bad performance of the car during the pre-season, have created this distorted image of the true capabilities of the car and made it seem as if Alonso was driving much better than his title contenders. Wins like Valencia, although they were emotional and gave the impression that the driver had done a lot, were more due to a fair amount of luck, with others abandoning in front and the SC playing a big role. Others were simply a case of the Ferrari being the best car in the rain. So, again, not saying that FA has not driven well, but that his and Ferrari's self promotion have done a lot to put him in a favourable light vs. his WDC contenders.

When you hear people like Martin W. make this exact same claim you have to ask yourself if what everyone is saying is actually true or not.

#258 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:30

When you hear people like Martin W. make this exact same claim you have to ask yourself if what everyone is saying is actually true or not.


That's his opinion and he will have his reasons. Would like to hear yours, other than "Whitmarsh said
so". Also, is that from MW's interview with El Pais? If it is, I was looking for the original version in English. If you have any idea of where to find it, please let me know.



#259 canaus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:51

Seb has had technical retirements that Alonso hasn't had to contend with.

No car can claim to have been the fastest car all year unlike last year. It has been all over the place this year and all of the WDC contenders have had external issues to contend beyond their control.

Whoever wins deserves it.


Yes no car was fastest all year, just RBR was faster than Ferrari, even without taking into account the first 4 races. Still Alonso is in front by 4 points.

But more likely, the combo Vettel/RBR will be in front of Alonso/Ferrari.

Edited by canaus, 09 October 2012 - 18:09.


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#260 canaus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:01

The difference between Alonso and Vettel and Hamilton has been the amount of PR about the car being slow that both Ferrari and FA have done. That and Ferrari's better performance under wet conditions have resulted in FA being overrated this year vs. Vettel and Hamilton.


There is no reason to believe this. First, we had only 1 race. Alonso won, but where was Massa?

And we had only 2 wet qualys.

In both of them Alonso took pole, because the RBR drivers unlike Alonso didn't put a lap togheter.

At Silversone Webbers's aggregate time in Q3 was better than Alonso's, in the last run Webber did a mistake in S2 and even so it was close. Vettel did even worse.
At Hockenheim also Vettel's aggregate time in Q3 was better than Alonso's, but he blew it at the Hairpin in his last run.

Edited by canaus, 09 October 2012 - 18:10.


#261 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:37

What is interesting in the article is that he seems to be dismissing Hamilton as a threat to Vettel's championship bid. Even though there are 125pts left, the WDC is a straight battle between Vettel and Alonso.


Isn't Hamilton math. out of it under normal developments? Even if he wins all five races, his score would add (152+125=277), falling short by 7 points to Alonso who has to be 5 x in second place => (194+90=284). Problem is, there are more than just two cars on the track, which is why I think Hamilton is done this year.

#262 Eff One 2002

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:44

Vettel is doing a late-season charge, so yeah, it'll probably be him again...

#263 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:46

There is no reason to believe this. First, we had only 1 race. Alonso won, but where was Massa?

And we had only 2 wet qualys.

In both of them Alonso took pole, because the RBR drivers unlike Alonso didn't put a lap togheter.

At Silversone Webbers's aggregate time in Q3 was better than Alonso's, in the last run Webber did a mistake in S2 and even so it was close. Vettel did even worse.
At Hockenheim also Vettel's aggregate time in Q3 was better than Alonso's, but he blew it at the Hairpin in his last run.


Check This. Race pace is the better indication of speed over a longer distance. At Malaysia Alonso was faster than Vettel, Hamilton, Webber and Kimi.




#264 rijole1

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:08

I would love Kimi to take it, people have discounted him before, and lived to rue the fact, but those who discount him this year are probably on less shaky ground given the tools at his disposal.

So, I would like Vettel to take it, for me he is the real star, and start, of the new era, he would be a worthy and deserving Champion imo.


Think Vettel will take it - it looks like it now - they have found something new for the car and Seb is a great driver.

Almost as great as Kimi - so voted for Kimi

#265 joshb

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:16

I did not see anything in the article attributed to CH that could be construed as saying the DDRS was first employed in Singapore. In fact, I thought he skirted the issue on the DDRS rather cleverly.

-----------
Horner said in the article :-

"As with all these things there is never a silver bullet, and I think it would be very difficult to say that the car's performance here is down to a rear wing," he said after seeing Vettel cut Fernando Alonso's championship lead to just four points.

"I think we have made progress in all areas and it is about chipping away at the detail."

"We had the fastest pitstop in Japan for example, so it would be wrong to say our upturn in performance is about finding a few kilometres on the straight."

"I think the car has worked well here in all conditions, low fuel, high fuel, and on long runs on the two compounds of tyre that we have been presented this weekend. I think the nature of this circuit suits the car.

"But we have seen how performance moves around, so there is absolutely no predictions that we can take out of this event, other than we need to keep pushing, we need to keep bringing performance to the car and the championship now is effectively a battle of five races between Fernando and Seb.""You can't rule out the others, but whoever does the best job over the next five races will ultimately prevail."
---------------

What is interesting in the article is that he seems to be dismissing Hamilton as a threat to Vettel's championship bid. Even though there are 125pts left, the WDC is a straight battle between Vettel and Alonso.


I wouldn't rule Hamilton out yet BUT 1 poor race and it will. He can only get 277 pts so 1 non score or 2 more races like Japan and he won't get enough.
Kimi needs to start winning and winning a few of them too. I can't see it happening
I can't see Webber outscoring Vettel, let alone by 60 points even if he could outscore Alonso/Hamilton with the Red Bull coming on strong.
Same with Button to Hamilton.
Vettel v Alonso with Hamilton just about there but needing a DNF or two.
Kimi, Webber, Button no for me.

#266 joshb

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:21

No one's won the title yet.

No one's guaranteed anything.

One car failure, one grid penalty, one touch by another driver, one error ... they can tip the scales in a huge way.

I doubt Vettel will be uncorking the WDC champagne until his car crosses the line in a championship-winning postion at the title-deciding race. That's if he'll be doing that!
It's been down to the last race, heck even the last corner, more often than not since Hamilton and Vettel have been on the grid and they know it. Alonso, ever the relentless competitor, also knows it.

Brink of Korea! :)


This is the Vettel who came to Japan last year with 124pt lead with 125 to play for and insisted it wasn't over!
And the Vettel that trailed by 25pts with 50 left and believed he could win, and he did
Lot of hard luck stories still do go yet

#267 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:30

Quite so, Vettel has been solid all year, consistently solid I would say, but still bellow Hamilton and especially Alonso.


No matter what he does, Vettel always does worse than these two :rolleyes: I´m sick of that crap.

This year 4 drivers emerged clearly over the rest, and they´re the top 4 in WDC now. Button could have joined the party without that lame streak. Trying to rank these 4 is wild guessing, and implying some of them was head and shoulders over the others is just fanboyism, no matter who you pick. If I was forced to name a nº1, I´d say Alonso, by a really small margin. He´s driving really well, but I don´t buy that "Ferrari is so poor" rubbish they -Alonso included- are always trying to sell.

#268 Curt000

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:36

I would love to see Hamilton take the title which is possible. If mclaren sort there heads out . But realistically vettel will take the title . Rather alonso than him to be honest.

#269 joshb

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:48

Alonso has driven extremely well in a car that's the least competitive of RB/Mclaren/Ferrari, aided somewhat by the best on track fortune of the 3
Vettel has driven very well in not the best car and has had some bad luck
Hamilton has also driven very well in the best car but has had the worst luck of the 3.

All 3 would be worth winners assuming 1 of those 3 will do it (anyone else would also be worth of course)


#270 MP422

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:51

Vettel is only close because of Alonso being taken out from two races on the first lap. Alonso's lead would probably be near 50 points if it hadn't been for that. Frankly I feel that Grosjean is robbing Alonso of an easy title, and I'm not even an Alonso fan.

Vettel isn't doing any better than usual, he's just extremely lucky to have not been attacked by that lunatic Grosjean. As bad as this sounds, I actually want Grosjean to punt Vettel off at one of the remaining races just to even things back out again. I don't want a driver winning the title because the other guy(s) was taken out of the race one too many times by a madman who can't handle his car at the first corner of any given race.


LOL, you might wanna rewatch the races you mention, alonso took himself out in suzuka and in spa Hamilton, Kobayashi and Perez were also effected by Grosjean.


Add in the poor reliability for Vettel and Hamilton and you have Alonso benefiting from circumstance then the rest of the title contenders. So Alonso was effected by RG one time and at that time so was Hamilton. Also Masa got 2nd in Suzuka that car is better then they say.. a lot better.

#271 F.M.

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:53

Bar some misfortune, it's Vettel's Championship

#272 denthierry

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:09

nobody mentioning the crucial role that teammates will play in the ALO vs VET battle.

Honestly, in that regard i see ALO gaining more help in the last GPs than VET will get from WEB.
Because Massa seems to be doing better than WEB lately, and because he's more enclined to obey team orders i think, given his uncertain position in the team for next year.
Lucas' pressure will be high...

That said, two things to add:
- i'm not underestimating WEB's chances and abilities in the coming GPs either.
- i'd rather not see any team tricks and games decide the championship.

#273 l2k2

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:13

Isn't Hamilton math. out of it under normal developments? Even if he wins all five races, his score would add (152+125=277), falling short by 7 points to Alonso who has to be 5 x in second place => (194+90=284). Problem is, there are more than just two cars on the track, which is why I think Hamilton is done this year.


No, definitely not; the argument about more than two cars works both ways... that is, you can not assume Alonso to be second in all the remaining races. (Indeed, if he would, he would very likely be the WDC this year – even against Vettel.)

For example in "How many points will win the 2012 WDC?" thread, the voting median (and the mode, read: the most common choise) is at 260–269. And that was prior to Japan, now it could be like 10 points off (way less than the average for Alonso per GP). So, the WDC could be won with just 250–260 points. Indeed, a linear extrapolation of Alonso so far gives us 20/15*194 ~ 259 points.

Thus based on this, we assume something like this (as the point scoring equivalent):
Alonso: 2 wins + 3rd = 259
Vettel: 2 wins + 2nd = 258
Raikkonen: 4 wins + 9th = 259
Hamilton: 4 wins + 7th = 258
Webber: 5 wins = 259
Button: 5 wins = 256
could already make insert-your-favourite-driver-here the 2012 WDC.

Of course all of these assume that the field remains as tight as it has been so far. And: of course, in strict mathematical sense; even Massa could still be the 2012 WDC (at 5 wins: 69 + 5×25 = 194, and more wins)... :smoking:

#274 Lights

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:19

I find it too simplistic to argue as some do that both drivers had a similar package and chances throughout the year. Both drivers made one unforced error as in being involved in an avoidable accident that resulted in 0 points. Alonso got Grosjeaned once and Vettel had two mechanical retirements, so that's in favor of Alonso. On the other hand, I'd argue that between the two, the Red Bull was the car to have in the 10 weekends of Aus, China, Bahrain, Monaco, Europe, GB, Hungary, Belgium, Singapore and Japan, while the Ferrari was only more competitive in Malaysia, Spain and Italy, with me being undecided on Canada and Germany. This difference in my opinion more than makes up for that 1 extra retirement of Vettel, and given that Alonso is still leading the championship I feel that he has been more impressive up till this point.

#275 superdelphinus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:19

Bar some misfortune, it's Vettel's Championship


There's been misfortune for all of them at some point of the season. This championship won't be over until brazil I don't think

#276 weareracing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:57

Ask yourself who are the likely winners of the 5 remaining GP's because RACE WINS will now decide the destiny of the 2012 World Drivers AND Constructors Championships.
Sorry but Kimi gets NULL point on the basis that the E20 falls short, Kimi will NOT be the WDC.
Mark and Jenson MAY get a sniff of one win through circumstances, therefore NOT ENOUGH, not champion material in 2012.
That leaves us with Fernando (1 win MAXIMUM in normal circumstances), Lewis ( I can see no more than 2 wins on the last 5 tracks, IF the team plays ball, NOT guaranteed - TWEET ME later!)
However Sebastian has a proven history on the run-in, Austin being the obvious exception.
I can see 3 maybe 4 wins expected for Sebastian and the RB8, Korea is one of those.
If he doesn't win Korea then the mix goes on, a Red Bull 1-2 would indicate that he would write his name into the F1 History books as a legend, 3 times and back-to-back-to-back youngest World Drivers Champion.
Given that Sebastian has an eye for statistics and historical detail, I fully expect him to become a 21st century Fangio figure and to go on and challenge Michaels ALL-TIME tally of World Championships.

#277 Hanzo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:20

I want to believe.

#278 showtime

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:23

Ask yourself who are the likely winners of the 5 remaining GP's because RACE WINS will now decide the destiny of the 2012 World Drivers AND Constructors Championships.
Sorry but Kimi gets NULL point on the basis that the E20 falls short, Kimi will NOT be the WDC.
Mark and Jenson MAY get a sniff of one win through circumstances, therefore NOT ENOUGH, not champion material in 2012.
That leaves us with Fernando (1 win MAXIMUM in normal circumstances), Lewis ( I can see no more than 2 wins on the last 5 tracks, IF the team plays ball, NOT guaranteed - TWEET ME later!)
However Sebastian has a proven history on the run-in, Austin being the obvious exception.
I can see 3 maybe 4 wins expected for Sebastian and the RB8, Korea is one of those.
If he doesn't win Korea then the mix goes on, a Red Bull 1-2 would indicate that he would write his name into the F1 History books as a legend, 3 times and back-to-back-to-back youngest World Drivers Champion.
Given that Sebastian has an eye for statistics and historical detail, I fully expect him to become a 21st century Fangio figure and to go on and challenge Michaels ALL-TIME tally of World Championships.


I agree with everything but the last line.

#279 loki

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:30

It ain't over 'til it's over.

A lot can happen between now and then. There are a couple of newer circuits and a brand new one. It may come down to the last lap of the last race.

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#280 flavio81

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:34

Consider Massa's pace last race. Not to underrate Massa, but the Ferraris were better than the McLarens and the rest of the cars save for the Red Bull. But if Alonso was driving that car, bringing his extra six tenths™© Flavio Briatore, i could imagine he would be able to challenge Vettel, pressuring him with a series of fastest laps until Vettel makes a mistake and goes off course. The Prost manouver. Finger boy is not cool headed, he can be pressured into mistakes. He always feels the stupid need of setting the fastest lap no matter what. He is hot headed. He has an achilles heel. He has thrown the toys out of the pram before.

Moreover, if the RB is fast, Webbo will be fast too, and i bet he will not want to play #2. Expect a new Red Bull Soap Opera: "Not Bad for a Number Two Season II", in which Webbo gets in Vettel's toes and diminishes his win chances, allowing Alonso to sneak in and get the WDC. This has happened before (See Mansell/Piquet 1986).

That Ferrari is fast, we shouldn't count it off. I appreciate Alonso but some forumers are right in saying that ALO has downplayed the Ferrari's real speed. The car has been fast through most of the season.

Another variable is mr. Iceman. Next race the Renault (sorry Lotus) team will use the "Coanda" aero device. If the thing is a breakthrough and makes the car seriously faster, Kimi might be a serious title contender too.

Edited by flavio81, 09 October 2012 - 23:40.


#281 flavio81

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:43

Given that Sebastian has an eye for statistics and historical detail, I fully expect him to become a 21st century Fangio figure and to go on and challenge Michaels ALL-TIME tally of World Championships.


Get a really good driver to pair Vettel and this won't happen.



#282 George Costanza

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:30

Ask yourself who are the likely winners of the 5 remaining GP's because RACE WINS will now decide the destiny of the 2012 World Drivers AND Constructors Championships.
Sorry but Kimi gets NULL point on the basis that the E20 falls short, Kimi will NOT be the WDC.
Mark and Jenson MAY get a sniff of one win through circumstances, therefore NOT ENOUGH, not champion material in 2012.
That leaves us with Fernando (1 win MAXIMUM in normal circumstances), Lewis ( I can see no more than 2 wins on the last 5 tracks, IF the team plays ball, NOT guaranteed - TWEET ME later!)
However Sebastian has a proven history on the run-in, Austin being the obvious exception.
I can see 3 maybe 4 wins expected for Sebastian and the RB8, Korea is one of those.
If he doesn't win Korea then the mix goes on, a Red Bull 1-2 would indicate that he would write his name into the F1 History books as a legend, 3 times and back-to-back-to-back youngest World Drivers Champion.
Given that Sebastian has an eye for statistics and historical detail, I fully expect him to become a 21st century Fangio figure and to go on and challenge Michaels ALL-TIME tally of World Championships.



Ok, I agree, except for challenge Michael's 7 titles. That, will not be repeated in our lifetimes, if not ever. It's quite stunning what Michael did and we won't see that again. However, Vettel and Alonso will be all time great champions.

I do think Alonso will bounce back, and it will probaly be enough. He really has been the driver of 2012. It reminds me of what Michael did in 1997 season, just very impressive.

Edited by George Costanza, 10 October 2012 - 03:40.


#283 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:59

Get a really good driver to pair Vettel and this won't happen.

He is already with Webber whom, unlike Massa, doesn't move over for his teammate and is considered by the specialized media as wdc material. Furthermore, as he said: "When I have had a good car, my teammate is Seb; when Button had a good car, his teammate was Rubens". The same Button who has beaten an experienced Hamilton in a McLaren. The same Hamilton (and the same McLaren) who, in his rookie year, took the great Alonso running away.
Whether Vettel is the best on the grid or not at the moment, there is not enough information to judge; but he is certainly in the top three with Lewis and Alonso. And I am not sure he would struggle with each other as much as that pair did between them.

#284 topical

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:02

Ok, I agree, except for challenge Michael's 7 titles. That, will not be repeated in our lifetimes, if not ever. It's quite stunning what Michael did and we won't see that again. However, Vettel and Alonso will be all time great champions.

I do think Alonso will bounce back, and it will probaly be enough. He really has been the driver of 2012. It reminds me of what Michael did in 1997 season, just very impressive.



If Vettel becomes 3xWDC at the age of 25 there is no reason to believe, with another ten years or so ahead of him, that he won't be in a position to equal or beat Schumacher's record. After all, in 3-4 years time Alonso will probably retire, Hamilton has likely crippled himself for the next couple of years by joining Mercedes and at the moment there are no other drivers in that calibre. So if Vettel gets a good car he could easily win his 5th championship before he's thirty, which would put him in a very strong position. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but if anyone of the current crop has the best chance of taking so many titles then it's definitely him.

#285 Atreiu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:21

Webber is not in the very good champion beating and relentless drivers category. Hes more like a Coulthard. Half a dozen great races ahear, max. If he had it. He would have done it in 2010. It will never be that wide open for him again.

#286 ali_M

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:34

If Vettel becomes 3xWDC at the age of 25 there is no reason to believe, with another ten years or so ahead of him, that he won't be in a position to equal or beat Schumacher's record. After all, in 3-4 years time Alonso will probably retire, Hamilton has likely crippled himself for the next couple of years by joining Mercedes and at the moment there are no other drivers in that calibre. So if Vettel gets a good car he could easily win his 5th championship before he's thirty, which would put him in a very strong position. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but if anyone of the current crop has the best chance of taking so many titles then it's definitely him.


Loeb in the WRC just won his 9th consecutive title. Utterly unbelievable and yet, this is what has happened.

You just never know. Vettel and RedBull could very well better Schumi's legacy. As Schumi himself says, 'Records are there to be broken'.

#287 canaus

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:21

Check This. Race pace is the better indication of speed over a longer distance. At Malaysia Alonso was faster than Vettel, Hamilton, Webber and Kimi.


I got it. Alonso being faster than Hamilton in the rain means his car was faster. But up until the red flag, when Hamilton was faster, he was performed miracles in a slower car. Right?
And about Vettel, what I saw is that when he got rid of Kimi was on a similar pace with Alonso, as you can see.
Try harder.

#288 RealRacing

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:03

I got it. Alonso being faster than Hamilton in the rain means his car was faster. But up until the red flag, when Hamilton was faster, he was performed miracles in a slower car. Right?
And about Vettel, what I saw is that when he got rid of Kimi was on a similar pace with Alonso, as you can see.
Try harder.


Check the scores of fastest laps of FA against the drivers I mention, he beats all of them. It's the aggregate data that can give us an idea of a trend.

#289 flavio81

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:54

He is already with Webber whom, unlike Massa, doesn't move over for his teammate and is considered by the specialized media as wdc material. Furthermore, as he said: "When I have had a good car, my teammate is Seb; when Button had a good car, his teammate was Rubens". The same Button who has beaten an experienced Hamilton in a McLaren. The same Hamilton (and the same McLaren) who, in his rookie year, took the great Alonso running away.
Whether Vettel is the best on the grid or not at the moment, there is not enough information to judge; but he is certainly in the top three with Lewis and Alonso. And I am not sure he would struggle with each other as much as that pair did between them.


I don't consider Webber WDC material. Additionally i rate Barrichello higher than Webber and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

Lewis already proved himself against Alonso and Button already proved himself against Lewis (& many others).

Sebastian has only been proven to perform against S. Bourdais, and Mark Webber.

Edited by flavio81, 11 October 2012 - 14:54.


#290 exogenesis1203

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:05

Check the scores of fastest laps of FA against the drivers I mention, he beats all of them. It's the aggregate data that can give us an idea of a trend.

lol fastest laps. Fastest laps is utterly meaningless with the current tires. Look at Japan, Vettel could easily won the race without posting the purple lap. The only reason he did the fastest lap is because he loves statistics and wants the Grand Chapel, he was driving around 1:36-1:37 and then when Senna did a fastest lap he just pushed for a single 1:35s and back up to cruising. This means fastest laps are clearly meaningless since it's not that the driver can't, there's just no reason to.

#291 King Six

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:15

If Vettel becomes 3xWDC at the age of 25 there is no reason to believe, with another ten years or so ahead of him, that he won't be in a position to equal or beat Schumacher's record. After all, in 3-4 years time Alonso will probably retire, Hamilton has likely crippled himself for the next couple of years by joining Mercedes and at the moment there are no other drivers in that calibre. So if Vettel gets a good car he could easily win his 5th championship before he's thirty, which would put him in a very strong position. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but if anyone of the current crop has the best chance of taking so many titles then it's definitely him.

The hallmarks are certainly there. Red Bull have great personnel. Great financial backing and a great driver. I think the big rule changes come faster these days though, all in the name of cost-cutting and mixing things up. That's why the great ideas that put teams ahead of others (double diffuser, f-duct, exhaust blown diffuser, flexi-wings, double DRS) end up getting banned. FIA, the teams, Bernie et all try hard to not have a repeat of the Schumacher era. But also the 2009-'Vettel' era will come to a somewhat close after a few short years with the 2014 rules; smaller wings, different engine etc.., could throw RBR off their track.

Edited by King Six, 11 October 2012 - 18:15.


#292 exogenesis1203

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:16

I don't consider Webber WDC material. Additionally i rate Barrichello higher than Webber and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

Lewis already proved himself against Alonso and Button already proved himself against Lewis (& many others).

Sebastian has only been proven to perform against S. Bourdais, and Mark Webber.

And who has Alonso proven himself against? Oh right, Lewis, who is supposed to be unproven without proving his worth against a proven Alonso.

Edited by exogenesis1203, 11 October 2012 - 18:16.


#293 RealRacing

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:58

lol fastest laps. Fastest laps is utterly meaningless with the current tires. Look at Japan, Vettel could easily won the race without posting the purple lap. The only reason he did the fastest lap is because he loves statistics and wants the Grand Chapel, he was driving around 1:36-1:37 and then when Senna did a fastest lap he just pushed for a single 1:35s and back up to cruising. This means fastest laps are clearly meaningless since it's not that the driver can't, there's just no reason to.


I meant check what driver has the faster lap vs. the other lap by lap.

#294 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:17

I don't consider Webber WDC material. Additionally i rate Barrichello higher than Webber and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

Lewis already proved himself against Alonso and Button already proved himself against Lewis (& many others).

Sebastian has only been proven to perform against S. Bourdais, and Mark Webber.



Ok... :confused:

Do you really rate Webber below Rubens? The same Rubens that is too busy moving over for his teammates here and there, and got sacked from Williams (ok, didn't got his contract renewed) for the sake of Bruno Senna? The same Rubens who was never really capable of placing himself into the championship fight even though he had the best car on the grid during most of his tenure at Ferrari? I disagree there.

That you don't rate Webber as WDC material is a very respectable opinion. Most of the specialized media dont' share it, but most of the specialized media, for instance, refuse to talk ill from Mr. Senna, so I think at the end of the day, even if they are more qualified, they are only offering an opinion.

However, and I am serious here, do you rate Vettel at all? the guy who dominated F1 in a more emphatic way than M. Schumacher did in 2002, 2004; even though the 2011 RedBull Contender was not as dominant as the F2002 or the F2004? (yes, I know Michael was past his peak after 99-00, but I think it is an interesting statistic nonetheless, specially since Rubens was not allowed to race him)

#295 Nonesuch

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:25

However, and I am serious here, do you rate Vettel at all? the guy who dominated F1 in a more emphatic way than M. Schumacher did in 2002, 2004; even though the 2011 RedBull Contender was not as dominant as the F2002 or the F2004? (yes, I know Michael was past his peak after 99-00, but I think it is an interesting statistic nonetheless, specially since Rubens was not allowed to race him)

Vettel only scored 392 out of 475 points (82.52% points) in 2011 while Michael Schumacher scored 144 out of 170 (84.71%) in 2002. It seems like a small difference, but Vettel would've had to score 11 more points last year to surpass that. Again, it's not a big difference - and Vettel did dominate in 2011, but Michael Schumacher in 2002 was extraordinary. Every race on the podium is an unmatched achievement. :up:

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 October 2012 - 19:25.


#296 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:30

Vettel only scored 392 out of 475 points (82.52% points) in 2011 while Michael Schumacher scored 144 out of 170 (84.71%) in 2002. It seems like a small difference, but Vettel would've had to score 11 more points last year to surpass that. Again, it's not a big difference - and Vettel did dominate in 2011, but Michael Schumacher in 2002 was extraordinary. Every race on the podium is an unmatched achievement. :up:

My bad... I don't know why I thought that the numbers were 80+ for Michael and 82+ for Vettel. Then, what Vettel did was to win a larger percentage of races compared to Michael? (or that one also does not hold?) I was pretty sure there was a mind blowing statistic along those lines with both 2002 and 2004 :blush:

But since your correction, then 2004 is the example to use :p

(And still, the F2002 was much stronger (compared to the competition) than the RB7 :p )

#297 MP422

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:17

I've seen both seasons. Fantastic cars those teams built those two seasons.

#298 mnmracer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:19

Most wins in a season:
2004: 13
2002: 11
2011: 11

Highest percentage of wins in a season:
2004: 13 of 18 = 72%
2002: 11 of 17 = 65%
2011: 11 of 19 = 58%

Most podium finishes in a season
2002: 17 of 17
2011: 19 of 17
2004: 18 of 15

Highest percentage of total possible points in a season
2002: 144 of 170 = 84.71%
2011: 392 of 475 = 82.53%
2004: 148 of 180 = 82.22%

World Champion with most races left in the season
2002: 6 races left
2004: 4 races left
2011: 4 races left

Though it must be said that the F2002 and the F2004 were much faster over the rest of the field than the RB7.

#299 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:25

Most wins in a season:
2004: 13
2002: 11
2011: 11

Highest percentage of wins in a season:
2004: 13 of 18 = 72%
2002: 11 of 17 = 65%
2011: 11 of 19 = 58%

Most podium finishes in a season
2002: 17 of 17
2011: 19 of 17
2004: 18 of 15

Highest percentage of total possible points in a season
2002: 144 of 170 = 84.71%
2011: 392 of 475 = 82.53%
2004: 148 of 180 = 82.22%

World Champion with most races left in the season
2002: 6 races left
2004: 4 races left
2011: 4 races left

Though it must be said that the F2002 and the F2004 were much faster over the rest of the field than the RB7.

:thumbup:
And not only they (Ferrari) were faster, the team efforts were for one man, and one man only.

The only statistic there that I don't think is very relevant is the last one (races left), since the points system was different for all three cases.

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#300 George Costanza

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 23:13

Vettel only scored 392 out of 475 points (82.52% points) in 2011 while Michael Schumacher scored 144 out of 170 (84.71%) in 2002. It seems like a small difference, but Vettel would've had to score 11 more points last year to surpass that. Again, it's not a big difference - and Vettel did dominate in 2011, but Michael Schumacher in 2002 was extraordinary. Every race on the podium is an unmatched achievement. :up:


I suppose in 2004, he could have won 14 races in a row if it hadn't been for Monaco. I really thought Schu back in 2004, was going to win them all, which would have been absolutely stunning.

Edited by George Costanza, 11 October 2012 - 23:24.