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Can Hamilton rise to the Mercedes challenge? [split]


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#51 JimiKart

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:40

Assuming you can even tell that he's shown diminishing team skills, there's nothing to say that a change of team and environment wouldn't make a huge difference. I found the blog/article by a McLaren engineer that someone posted quite interesting in that respect because in it he described a long association that saw the boy become a man and then some disillusionment that he changed over time. Having grown from boy to man at McLaren, perhaps there's a real benefit in going straight to Mercedes as a man?


Question - does a Man go on a rant about a perceived slight, about being "disrespected"? personally I think not and I'll bet we'll see that in the years to come - there's more to indicate he can't do it then there is to indicate the opposite, fact.

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#52 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:46

He didn't 'go on a rant'. Using silly hyperbole doesn't make it true either.

As for your balance of evidence, you don't have any one way or the other about how good his ability in driving a team forwards is or could be. How good is his feedback compared with Button or Paffett? How about his relationship with the guys at the factory? How much is that relationship affected by the length of the relationship both positively and negatively? Does he lead the engineers at a race weekend or follow?

You can't know the answers to these questions. Fact.

#53 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 14:46

It's been pretty clear that the Hamsta has not displayed the skills required to do anything but drive fast, and I don't expect to see those skills showing up anytime soon, IMO there is no chance this move to Merc will end well for him.

Who did mclaren turn to to find the performance in the car when Jenson was struggling? oh yes! thats right! it was Lewis Hamilton.....no driver gets into f1 without a certain level of understanding of how the car works and yes some might be better at dialling the performance in the car than others but if this season has told us anything (bar japan when Lewis mysteriously found no performance at all after quite a decent spell at getting the best out of it) it's that Lewis does understand how the car works and the difference in the understanding of the car between him and Jenson(who is thought of quite highly in this respect) is not so big afterall.

Edited by light, 09 October 2012 - 14:53.


#54 JimiKart

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:00

Okay, lets leave out what you call "silly hyperbole" and try again - does a man make comments on twitter to the effect that he was "disrespected", does he make comments that show he's upset about a perceived slight, no IMO he does not, and if it wasn't off topic I'd tell you who does.

There is not one single indicator that LH can lead a team and develop a car, so given that I'm not privy to the info that would answer all your questions, I only have left that which is public knowledge on which to base my opinion.

#55 goldenboy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:03

Okay, lets leave out what you call "silly hyperbole" and try again - does a man make comments on twitter to the effect that he was "disrespected", does he make comments that show he's upset about a perceived slight, no IMO he does not, and if it wasn't off topic I'd tell you who does.

There is not one single indicator that LH can lead a team and develop a car, so given that I'm not privy to the info that would answer all your questions, I only have left that which is public knowledge on which to base my opinion.

I thnk he can but just not to the level michael did with ferrari. And let's be honest, has anyone ever done it that well? It's a high benchmark and because it's so recent it seems to be the one most people are comparing to. True he does still seem a bit immature though.

#56 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:04

Okay, lets leave out what you call "silly hyperbole" and try again - does a man make comments on twitter to the effect that he was "disrespected", does he make comments that show he's upset about a perceived slight, no IMO he does not, and if it wasn't off topic I'd tell you who does.

There is not one single indicator that LH can lead a team and develop a car, so given that I'm not privy to the info that would answer all your questions, I only have left that which is public knowledge on which to base my opinion.

Lewis stole the team leadership from a certain Fernando Alonso and has pretty much been the team leader at mclaren right up until now. Button has had a spell of leading the team during his time at mclaren but for the most part and including right now the team leader is Lewis......so what are you talking about? lol
And as for developing the car....like i just said who helped develop the car when Jenson couldn't? Gary paffet? :lol:

Edited by light, 09 October 2012 - 15:08.


#57 RealRacing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:36

There are too many variables influencing success in F1 and nowadays I think the role of the driver has, sadly, diminished a lot. I hope I am wrong but from what I have seen so far, Mercedes (and Brawn) are not good car developers. This season they have been all over the place with the double DRS, then the Coanga exhaust and what not, but have not been able to challenge even for podiums. I see them more as loophole finders than developers. In 2009 the Brawn was quickly caught and passed after the rest of the teams implemented the DDs. They might be able to pull something like that in 2014 again, but that is not a very worthy way of winning a championship anyway if you ask me. As I don't see Mercedes re-building the car completely for 2013, I think they will have a hard time, like this year, with Lewis maybe able to overdrive the car for a couple of occasions but with no hope at a championship. However, if he sticks with it, he may be able to pull a Schumi (how long did it take Ferrari to win with MS?).

#58 4L3X

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:40

I think Hamilton can stop comparing himself to Senna now (Monaco, Rain master and all that crap he bragged about in the past). Senna always wanted to move up, to a better team, even to the point of driving for free!

Hamilton obviously has other priorities than WINNING.

#59 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:43

was it 2009 where mclaren started out with an awful car but in the 2nd half of the season Lewis scored a hell of a lot of points and got a couple of wins?
Thats proof enough that he has got what it takes to work with his engineers and find solutions cos if he didnt have what it takes then the car would not have improved so much during the course of the year.....same will happen at mercedes if they start off with a bad car too.
Alonso did the same kind of thing when he rejoined renault by turning a not so good car into a competitive machine that won a few races.

Edited by light, 09 October 2012 - 15:46.


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#60 stanga

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:46

I think Hamilton can stop comparing himself to Senna now (Monaco, Rain master and all that crap he bragged about in the past). Senna always wanted to move up, to a better team, even to the point of driving for free!

Hamilton obviously has other priorities than WINNING.


Does he compare himself to Senna alot?

#61 4L3X

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:48

A lot, in case you didn't notice.

#62 03011969

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:52

Those who accept the mistakes can see that he is the best driver on the grid. These seasone proves it.

I love the self-deluded and hopelessly flawed "logic" of some Hamilton fans.

He is certainly *one* of the best drivers on the grid - whether that's one of the top 10, top 7, top 5 or top 3 is open to discussion, but if you wish to conclude that he is *the* best driver in F1 and that those who disagree are simply wrong is laughable nonsense.

#63 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:54

Does he compare himself to Senna alot?

I think in the beginning he got caught up in the euphoria of it all and would make the odd comment about comparing himself to Senna which is understandable being a young lad finding instant success at the highest level but he doesn't do that anymore from what ive seen....he usually will talk in admiration of his childhood hero these days rather than in comparision to him.

#64 P123

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:56

Let's wait and see?

#65 Watkins74

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:59

Let's wait and see?

:up:

#66 Fatgadget

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:01

Let's wait and see?

Nah! :lol:

#67 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:04

A lot, in case you didn't notice.

I didn't. I saw a lot of others comparing him to Senna, and I saw Lewis declaring that he would like to emulate the success of Senna. I don't see much of him him comparing himself to Senna, let alone favourably. That bit was usually done here on the forums, by some people who got a bit carried away.

#68 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:07

lets wait and see indeed , but i want to compare it to michael schumacher . did michael move to ferrari for the sake of choosing the slower car and develop it around him , or he went there because ferrari is a well proven race team and has won multiple championships and he wants to to add to that record and get more championships. i know that a person needs a challenge to motivate him but u just dont pick the worst choice for the sake of it, it doesnt work like that.

#69 Tauhid

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:08

Lewis is very much a team player and he is one of the best drivers to work on simulators as many experts have come out to say. He can turn Mercedes into a championship contender in the next few years but doing so right from the get-go next year is a bit too much to ask. He is a brilliant driver who is probably the fastest on the grid. So yes he can definitely win a race or two even with a crap car like this year's Merc. I think he will win one or two more championships in his career but to be a dominant driver like Schumacher was, he would have had to come out in a different era because Vettel & Alonso are just as good of a driver as Lewis is.

#70 jjcale

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:18

Right, MSC's three years at Merc, with his proven skills and abilities to lead and develop the car and team to the top didn't quite work... now Lewis is going to make it all happen?

-- Dream on. It is really down to the guys designing the car that it all hinges... all Lewis can hope for is that they will give him a competitive car to race in. The rest is just a fantasy land chatter.


This

#71 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:28

Lewis stole the team leadership from a certain Fernando Alonso and has pretty much been the team leader at mclaren right up until now. Button has had a spell of leading the team during his time at mclaren but for the most part and including right now the team leader is Lewis......so what are you talking about? lol
And as for developing the car....like i just said who helped develop the car when Jenson couldn't? Gary paffet? :lol:

This is another load of opinions stated as facts, with added hyperbole and a smattering of light flamebaiting.

You cannot say that team leadership ebbs and flows with on-track performance or championship points. In 2009 the team made a huge leap forwards and you'd have to say that on a human level some of the engineers must have been inspired to perform by Lewis's extraordinary performances. That's not to say that walking into the factory and shouting 'come on lads, get working!' is going to make them come up with a few tenths or just make them roll their eyes, but driving a team forwards cannot be easy to get right or to particularly take an active role in. It clearly has to be something more subtle than that because there is a leadership structure already in place and we cannot realistically separate driver and engineer performance in terms of car setup, let alone the level of inspiration* they might bring.

*Edit; I meant performance.

#72 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:29

Does Hamilton inherit Michael Schumacher's engineers and pit crew when he moves to Mercedes?

Just thinking out loud that there could be quite a few DRS and loose wheel issues if that is the case.

In all honesty, a new environment might galvanise him. However, if Mercedes fail to learn from their past 3 seasons (monumental cock up after another), it could totally demotivate Hamilton ala Alonso in 2007 at Mclaren. Could Hamilton keep his nerve and bite his tongue like Schumacher?

#73 SR388

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:29

I am interested to see how long the Honeymoon period is.

If Lewis is getting crushed I really do see him lashing out.


What I don't get is why people act as though drivers never lash out against the team. Prost did a great job of it.

#74 Darth Sidious

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:32

was it 2009 where mclaren started out with an awful car but in the 2nd half of the season Lewis scored a hell of a lot of points and got a couple of wins?
Thats proof enough that he has got what it takes to work with his engineers and find solutions cos if he didnt have what it takes then the car would not have improved so much during the course of the year.....same will happen at mercedes if they start off with a bad car too.
Alonso did the same kind of thing when he rejoined renault by turning a not so good car into a competitive machine that won a few races.



Much as I would love to give Lewis the credit for this, he really didn't do anything technical other than drive the wheels off the damn thing.

IIRC the Silver Donkey ™ suffered from designers that fitted the front wing end plates backwards, and it took Ross Brawn pointing at the car, laughing and saying "I can see from here what they've done wrong, but I'm not telling them..." or words to that effect before they fixed it.

I sometimes wonder, if Ross had kept his mouth shut, if the team would have taken that necessary step back and looked at what was clearly awry or instead kept focusing on a flawed 'inwash/outwash' philosophy to an increasingly bitter end.

Cheers Ross, btw. Made the end of 2009 brilliant. :up:

#75 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:33

I think Lewis will be at the mercy of Mercedes, not the other way around. I dont think drivers make that big a difference in the competitiveness of a team off-the-track.

This 'dream' of his sounds like he wants to be the next Schumacher, but I'm not sure the dream will end nearly as well. I'm also skeptical that his patience levels will remain high after a season of not being competitive.

#76 dhill39

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:35

What we have seen so far,no,but I think a team like Mclaren doesn't allow a driver to be the man,so to speak.He's going to a new team so let's see what happens.

#77 jjcale

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:40

Much as I would love to give Lewis the credit for this, he really didn't do anything technical other than drive the wheels off the damn thing.

IIRC the Silver Donkey ™ suffered from designers that fitted the front wing end plates backwards, and it took Ross Brawn pointing at the car, laughing and saying "I can see from here what they've done wrong, but I'm not telling them..." or words to that effect before they fixed it.

I sometimes wonder, if Ross had kept his mouth shut, if the team would have taken that necessary step back and looked at what was clearly awry or instead kept focusing on a flawed 'inwash/outwash' philosophy to an increasingly bitter end.

Cheers Ross, btw. Made the end of 2009 brilliant. :up:


Sorry to Go OT but it might be relevant to this thread:

Could Ross Brawn be really so clever as to work out that he would need help for other teams to keep Redbull at bay in 09 and subtly hint to Macca to think again in order to help them to catch up?? :stoned:

If that's true, who cares what LH's skills are.....

#78 bub

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:12

Right, MSC's three years at Merc, with his proven skills and abilities to lead and develop the car and team to the top didn't quite work... now Lewis is going to make it all happen?

-- Dream on. It is really down to the guys designing the car that it all hinges... all Lewis can hope for is that they will give him a competitive car to race in. The rest is just a fantasy land chatter.


:up: Agree with this. This leadership qualities stuff is exaggerated to elevate one driver and/or diminish another to fit agendas. Schumachers time at Mercedes is a good example

#79 sharo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:22

At present I think the question is better if put inverse - Can Mercedes rise to the Hamilton challenge?

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#80 TheNewStig

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:24

Yes.

#81 bauss

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:09

It's down to the designers mainly... the best LH can do is give the right feedback, some motivation and mainly, drive the hell out of whatever he is given.

In the current era of no testing, that is the main thing a driver can do...nothing more. I'm fairly confident LH can perform that...

but as we see, if Newey's genius continue to surpass the others, with a solid driver like Vettel, there wont be too much LH or anyone else can do about it.

Overall, his success or failure wont be because of his leadership skills or lack of, but the house and what type of engineers Brawn has put together.

#82 jeze

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:22

I think something that's really interesting about Hamilton is the fact that he's not been top three in the championship since he won it in 2008 and got beaten by Alonso in a much worse car last year...

Coincidence?



#83 Leyser

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:24

It's down to the designers mainly... the best LH can do is give the right feedback, some motivation and mainly, drive the hell out of whatever he is given.

In the current era of no testing, that is the main thing a driver can do...nothing more. I'm fairly confident LH can perform that...

but as we see, if Newey's genius continue to surpass the others, with a solid driver like Vettel, there wont be too much LH or anyone else can do about it.

Overall, his success or failure wont be because of his leadership skills or lack of, but the house and what type of engineers Brawn has put together.


+1

However, if it's close, his personal qualities - or lack thereof - may make all the difference.

Edited by Leyser, 09 October 2012 - 18:25.


#84 undersquare

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:35

I predict that next year's Merc will coincidentally be quite a lot more competitive...

#85 garoidb

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 18:38

I think something that's really interesting about Hamilton is the fact that he's not been top three in the championship since he won it in 2008 and got beaten by Alonso in a much worse car last year...

Coincidence?


He has a good chance of making the top three this year (although he is currently placed fourth).

#86 Peter Perfect

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:24

I predict that next year's Merc will coincidentally be quite a lot more competitive...

Depends if they can keep all their chiefs happy. http://www.f1technical.net/news/17677

#87 alframsey

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:41

I fully believe that Lewis can lead Merc over the next three years, he did so in 2008 and 2009 so why can't he do it again?

#88 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:46

I think a good question to ask would be what kind of education do f1 drivers have?
For example i remember reading somewhere that Lewis said at one point in his junior days he came under a lot of pressure to get good results in school as well as on the track otherwise he might lose his mclaren sponsorship and i would imagine its the same for all f1 drivers. Surely some of these divers take up further education such as mechanical engineering or a course covering aerodynamics in their spare time so that they can get a better understanding of the cars....if anyone has any insight into this i would be pleased to find out.....i mean if i was an f1 driver i'm pretty sure that my interest in the engineering side of things would grow and i would take up further education. Perhaps the teams themselves offer some kind of advanced tutoring to the drivers?

Edited by light, 09 October 2012 - 19:50.


#89 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:48

I think a good question to ask would be what kind of education do f1 drivers have?
For example i remember reading somewhere that Lewis said at one point in his junior days he came under a lot of pressure to get good results in school as well as on the track otherwise he might lose his mclaren sponsorship and i would imagine its the same for all f1 drivers. Surely some of these divers take up further education such as mechanical engineering or a course covering aerodynamics in their spare time so that they can get a better understanding of the cars....if anyone has any insight into this i would be pleased to find out.....i mean if i was an f1 driver i'm pretty sure that my interest in the engineering side of things would grow and i would take up further education.

Doesn't Rosberg have a degree in mechanical engineering or something?

#90 light

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:51

Doesn't Rosberg have a degree in mechanical engineering or something?

nice!
i didn't know that and i think its definately the smart thing to do, i think all the drivers should aspire to gain that kind of understanding.

Edited by light, 09 October 2012 - 19:51.


#91 SR388

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:56

Doesn't Rosberg have a degree in mechanical engineering or something?



His championship success ensured the chance to test a Formula 1 car for the first time at the tender age of 17. It proved to be a life-changing moment that spurred Nico on to push for greater racing glory, despite an offer to study aerodynamics at Imperial College in London that had been achieved thanks to Keke’s insistence on a fully-rounded education outside of racing.



http://www.castrol.c...ntentId=7014139

#92 ivand911

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 19:58

I predict that next year's Merc will coincidentally be quite a lot more competitive...

It is normal 6-7 best car in a season to be number 1 or 2 on the next season! When that happen last time? I have seen that optimism before. It didn't end well. Still miracles happen. Pray for car with no fundamental problems. This is Mercedes curse for last 3 seasons. Still since 2012 they can make crash tests and change wrong designs. 2010 and 2011 this was not possible.


#93 SR388

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:00

It is normal 6-7 best car in a season to be number 1 or 2 on the next season! When that happen last time? I have seen that optimism before. It didn't end well. Still miracles happen. Pray for car with no fundamental problems. This is Mercedes curse for last 3 seasons. Still since 2012 they can make crash tests and change wrong designs. 2010 and 2011 this was not possible.



BAR honda 2003 to 2004.

#94 BRG

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:45

What a load of twaddle in this thread. Mercedes have signed Hamilton to get in the car and drive the wheels off it, which is what he is rather good at doing. They have not signed him to lead the team. They have Haug and Brawn for that.

They had a super experienced, inspirational driver but he failed to drive the car fast enough.

#95 MP422

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:56

Depends if they can keep all their chiefs happy. http://www.f1technical.net/news/17677


3 month old article... lol. I'm sure all is well people get promoted and moved around all the time in F1.

#96 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:06

What a load of twaddle in this thread. Mercedes have signed Hamilton to get in the car and drive the wheels off it, which is what he is rather good at doing. They have not signed him to lead the team. They have Haug and Brawn for that.

They had a super experienced, inspirational driver but he failed to drive the car fast enough.

It's Hamilton's stated aim. If he expects to be trying to make a difference, while they expect him to just turn up and drive, then they're going to get off to a poor start.

#97 garoidb

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:32

It's Hamilton's stated aim. If he expects to be trying to make a difference, while they expect him to just turn up and drive, then they're going to get off to a poor start.


I am sure they will indulge him, as long as he does the turning up and driving fast part too, as I expect he will.

I just wonder how patient he will be if he does not get a competitive car by, say, 2014. I expect him to win races next year, but it is possible he may not.

#98 weareracing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:41

On the evidence of their 2012 performance (GP China excepted), Lewis appears to be heading for a bleak 2013 with Mercedes AGM.
His 1st and foremost challenge, as in any team, is to establish himself as the teams No.1 based on race results and points gathered.
In that respect 2013 will be interesting (from a spectator point-of-view) and challenging for BOTH drivers.

#99 baddog

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:49

His driving is never going to be in question.. the questions are twofold for me.

1: How will he cope on-track if the car is poor and he spends his time fighting kids and midfielders in a car no faster than they have. He has some history of getting in a lot of trouble back there and not always being very mature about it, and that in a mac which was usually much faster than them.

2: How will he cope off-track if the car is poor and there isn't any obvious light at the end of the tunnel. He has had a mediocre mac for a few races here and there, but always it has just been a matter of time. He has shown signs of impatience and bad attitudes at times.

The answer to both of these questions may be moot because of events, or it may be that he copes admirably. We shall see.

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#100 Eff One 2002

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:54

Jacques Villeneuve tried that. Epic fail.

These things happen.


You simply cannot compare what Schuey did at Ferrari to JV and the BAR debacle.

Ferrari were a team that were in a slump but they were a team that knew how to win races and championships and were massively experienced at accomplishing both. BAR were a clueless tobacco company on wheels that bought Tyrrell and were dopey enough to enter F1 with the slogan of "A Tradition Of Excellence" or whatever it was for their first season in 1999. :rolleyes: Apples and oranges...

Back to the orginal question, yes Lewis has a real chance of pulling this off but it will depend on getting the team behind him and making everything gel. There's also a chance this is a real mistake. Only time, as ever will tell.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 10 October 2012 - 01:40.