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Can Hamilton rise to the Mercedes challenge? [split]


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#101 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:57

On the evidence of their 2012 performance (GP China excepted), Lewis appears to be heading for a bleak 2013 with Mercedes AGM.
His 1st and foremost challenge, as in any team, is to establish himself as the teams No.1 based on race results and points gathered.
In that respect 2013 will be interesting (from a spectator point-of-view) and challenging for BOTH drivers.

Is he not heading there as an undisputed #1 anyway, or did I read that wrong?

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#102 weareracing

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:04

Hi there Buttoneer.
I thought that EQUAL had been the rhetoric of press briefings, although I stand to be corrected.
Having said that, the ultimate test of team status SHOULD be based on track results, in which case 2013 looks tasty from a spectator's point of view with regard to Mercedes.

#103 swerved

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:11

Is he not heading there as an undisputed #1 anyway, or did I read that wrong?


According to PF1 they did

"Added to it Mercedes have sweetened the deal by offering Hamilton "undisputed" number one status"

I'm loathe to post a link, might need to check with a more credible F1 news source, The Daily Mail or Anglers Weekly etc etc.


#104 peroa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:43

Is he not heading there as an undisputed #1 anyway, or did I read that wrong?

According to Brawn they didn't, just like they didn't offer more €€€.

#105 Timstr11

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:08

According to PF1 they did

"Added to it Mercedes have sweetened the deal by offering Hamilton "undisputed" number one status"

I'm loathe to post a link, might need to check with a more credible F1 news source, The Daily Mail or Anglers Weekly etc etc.

It was reported by BBC and hours later that snippet was removed from that BBC article.

Many drivers have an "equal treatment" clause in their contract and Brawn more or less confirmed that Hamilton asked for that. Rosberg also confirmed he has an equal treatment clause in his contract.

I don't get this obsession with "#1 status". It won't make the car or driver faster, which is what counts.

Edited by Timstr11, 10 October 2012 - 06:14.


#106 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:20

It was reported by BBC and hours later that snippet was removed from that BBC article.

Many drivers have an "equal treatment" clause in their contract and Brawn more or less confirmed that Hamilton asked for that. Rosberg also confirmed he has an equal treatment clause in his contract.

I don't get this obsession with "#1 status". It won't make the car or driver faster, which is what counts.


It does when you design the car/team around that 1 driver.

#107 Timstr11

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:35

It does when you design the car/team around that 1 driver.

An overrated aspect in my opinion.
There are many parameters that a team can vary to suit one driver but I don't believe these have anything to do with the fundamental design of the car, which will be the same for both drivers.

As long as both drivers have the same opportunity to set the car up to their liking it's a non-issue. Surely Hamilton will have a bit more to do when he arrives at the team so they understand how he likes to drive his car, but they have a state of the art sim which should help with that.

Edited by Timstr11, 10 October 2012 - 06:41.


#108 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:42

Is he not heading there as an undisputed #1 anyway, or did I read that wrong?


Andrew Benson was reporting that in his article, the day the news came out. Later the same day, the sentence miracolously vanished form the article.

#109 seahawk

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:43

The question is: "Can Mercedes rise to the Hamilton challenge"

Building crap cars for 3 years won´t go as smooth with the media as in the last 3 seasons with Hamilton in the car.

#110 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:17

Depends if they can keep all their chiefs happy. http://www.f1technical.net/news/17677

Yeah they do look weirdly top-heavy.

Anyway I get the impression that with the Hamilton/Concorde-esque decisions Mercedes will drop the F1-on-a-budget approach and put some proper money in. They have plenty, they just needed a brand strategy and now they have one.

I think that having Lewis in the car will galvanise the team, because they know he'll maximise whatever they can produce. And he has a presence, that Michael used to have, of being so ultra combative, confident, and a winner; someone the team will focus around. That's something that IMO McLaren unwittingly took away from him with the JB-equality approach. I think that 'team around him' that Brawn seems to have promised will work both ways.

#111 glorius&victorius

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:28

Lewis has very poor "communication skills" as he himself acknowledged in his interview with Lee McKenzie.
I doubt if he can do it.

#112 Number62

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:58

Lewis has very poor "communication skills" as he himself acknowledged in his interview with Lee McKenzie.
I doubt if he can do it.


Untrue

#113 ViMaMo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:43

Depends if they can keep all their chiefs happy. http://www.f1technical.net/news/17677


What ??

-----------------------

He has to take a lot of disappointments, keep himself and the team motivated. Schumi was a star in that matter. :smoking: If he thinks its for the freedom or trophies, he is only deluding himself. Merc hasnt the best strategists either, so race days might be a bit of a pain.

But Hamilton should do what his talents call for, drive his heart out, leave the rest to the team. Hope it works out.

Edited by ViMaMo, 10 October 2012 - 08:47.


#114 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:49

It was reported by BBC and hours later that snippet was removed from that BBC article.

Many drivers have an "equal treatment" clause in their contract and Brawn more or less confirmed that Hamilton asked for that. Rosberg also confirmed he has an equal treatment clause in his contract.

I don't get this obsession with "#1 status". It won't make the car or driver faster, which is what counts.

This is true and regardless of any promised status he'd still need to perform in the circuit otherwise focus will inevitably shift towards the driver who gets them most excited at the factory.

It does when you design the car/team around that 1 driver.

How exactly would they do that when the 2013 car is way past blueprint stage and will be almost complete by the time Lewis can get there?

The teams try to construct a car which is fast and balanced with setup taking the car in one direction or the other. After that, they may take note of one drivers comments on the efficacy of a new part more seriously than the other but probably only then if they see a performance difference. There's a thread discussing all this.

#115 alframsey

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:08

Lewis has very poor "communication skills" as he himself acknowledged in his interview with Lee McKenzie.
I doubt if he can do it.

Lol you talk wet pal, complete bollocks!

#116 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:09

I predict that next year's Merc will coincidentally be quite a lot more competitive...

I agree.

Lewis will win a few GPs next year, but it will not be enough for him to challenge for the WDC. I still see Vettel, Button and Alonso as the favorites for the 2013 WDC.

#117 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:13

Lewis has very poor "communication skills" as he himself acknowledged in his interview with Lee McKenzie.
I doubt if he can do it.

What did he say, exactly? Is this your take on it or did he say 'I have very poor communication skills'?

#118 Kvothe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:19

What did he say, exactly? Is this your take on it or did he say 'I have very poor communication skills'?


Wow you're very active today, completely agree with everything you've wrote.

#119 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:19

What did he say, exactly? Is this your take on it or did he say 'I have very poor communication skills'?


He said he seeks to improve his communication skills. Which obviously is not an admission that they are currently poor, just with headroom to become better.

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#120 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:21

I cant see Merc being successful until they cut the loose fat that is Ross Brawn. Without Byrne and Todt he has shown to be a terrible team director and has no idea.

As for Hamilton, if Schumacher couldnt turn Mercedes around then Lewis has no chance. They have gone from MSC to Lewis. So no.

#121 ViMaMo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:29

Its not about what MSC couldnt do, MSC doesnt design the cars FYI. People came in last year and it takes time for it to click. And let the discussion not follow so why couldnt MSC do it.

#122 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:35

From MGP's perspective, I reckon they should forget about driver contribution and concentrate on building a top3 car, at least the level Ferrari has this year. Only once that is achieved it makes sense to look at a driver making a difference.

To me it appears they're making the 2nd step before the first in signing Hamilton. But then again, they might think their 2013 car will be a rocket, who knows.

#123 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:47

From MGP's perspective, I reckon they should forget about driver contribution and concentrate on building a top3 car, at least the level Ferrari has this year. Only once that is achieved it makes sense to look at a driver making a difference.

To me it appears they're making the 2nd step before the first in signing Hamilton. But then again, they might think their 2013 car will be a rocket, who knows.


Hopefully :D

Look at it another way, Lewis was available, if he signed for macca that's him and alonso off the table for the next few years and vettel likely to stay at rb or go to Ferrari...

#124 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:13

Lewis has very poor "communication skills" as he himself acknowledged in his interview with Lee McKenzie.
I doubt if he can do it.


When did he say that?

#125 David1976

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:17

I for one think Hamilton will surprise people by how well he will do at Mercedes.

Even if McLaren have a superior car, their race team seems incapable of getting it together. That and the fact that, in my opinion, the speed differential between Hamilton and Button is still c 2-3 tenths all things being equal. Will next years Mercedes really be 3 tenths slower than McLaren at every race? I doubt it.

Brawn is a clever man, as are Bob Bell, Costa and Willis. If Brawn can bring them together working effectively in time to influence the 2013 car positively I suspect Mercedes will take another step forward from this year. This years Mercedes hasn't been that bad.


#126 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:38

I for one think Hamilton will surprise people by how well he will do at Mercedes.

Even if McLaren have a superior car, their race team seems incapable of getting it together. That and the fact that, in my opinion, the speed differential between Hamilton and Button is still c 2-3 tenths all things being equal. Will next years Mercedes really be 3 tenths slower than McLaren at every race? I doubt it.

Brawn is a clever man, as are Bob Bell, Costa and Willis. If Brawn can bring them together working effectively in time to influence the 2013 car positively I suspect Mercedes will take another step forward from this year. This years Mercedes hasn't been that bad.


I don't think so, we all know what he can do so no surprises there. What will be a surprise is if Merc get their act together and build a decent car.


#127 BernieEc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:42

I think hamilton might do better than expected. Everyone considers the Mclaren at least in a larger part of this season has had the best whilst the mercedes is allegedly 5th best car some even say its the 6th behind the Redbull, Mclaren, Ferrari Lotus and Sauber.

looking at qualifying alone (please this is just an analysis and a rudimentary one) between Rosberg and Button after 15 races its 9-6 in favour of Button. whilst I can't speak of who is faster between rosberg and Hamilton (although I would like ton think its LH although I have no concrete facts to back this up). I know the season has been quite close but 9-6 in favour of Button is still a much better statistic than I expected from rosberg in comparison to the McLaren of Button.

I know in the race things could be different and also I have not accounted for Button's setup hiatus. I would like to think if the Mercedes can get to within 3 tenths of McLaren hamilton could realistically put the car on the first 2 rows in a few races next year (this is baring in mind that McLaren will be a top car as well as we still have the Ferrari and redbull and Lotus to consider as well)

as I said a lot comes down to the speed differential between Hamilton and Rosberg that I can't quantify at the moment as to who is faster. for all you know rosberg might be faster than we think.
Although you have the MS who is currently outqualifying rosberg at the moment ...not sure what it is but it was 9-6 or so last time I checked and maybe this can be used as a barometre as well.

Edited by BernieEc, 10 October 2012 - 10:49.


#128 seahawk

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:47

Comparing the qualy results between Button and Rsoberg is not a good comparison. Button is not that godd in qualifying and has struggled heavily with the car during parts of the season in qualifying while his race speed was good. Rosberg was good in qualifying but the race speed of the Merc was really bad. Those 2 cars are not close imho.

#129 bub

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:13

If it goes well It will be because of Brawn and the rest of the team. If it doesn't go well it will be because Hamilton lacks the ability to lead the team etc.

#130 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:32

the real question is

CAN MERCEDES RISE TO THE LEWIS CHALLANGE???

Let's not kid ourselves, Lewis (aside from Tw@tter blunder) is natural fast driver. as many F1 pundits before me have said :smoking: that Nico is the sort of driver who drives to the limit of the car, but never really outperforms the car. looking back last 2 years, it's in fact Schumi who in many occation outperformed the car. but lewis is someone who can out perform the car. to prove my point, i'd like to point to 2009 macca season.

but what i fear is this, it's no secret Merc chews up it's rear tires faster than an average american goes through his quarter-pounder. Lewis is somewhat aggresive driver. he likes to slide the car more than say JB. merc really has a job on their hand producing a car to suit LH's driving style. Traction is something merc's just doesn't have. look at the move by kimi against schumi at eau rouge this year. the mercs always seemed to me a rear-biased car. maybe it's wheel base or lack of mid-range torque from powerfull merc engine, i don't know. also funny enough, merc looks like a car that's both too stiff and too soft in the same GP. i don't know if that's driver preference but it's something that's puzzled me. so Merc+haug+brawn needs to sort all these shit out and give lewis the car he needs, not the other way round.

#131 HoldenRT

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:40

The onbly issue I have with Hami making the switch to build a competitve team around him is tha.. whilxt he has shown he is a great, fast racer, he has shown very little in the way of being able to grasp, let alone put into practice, the skills necessary to pull a team around him - far from it.

Other than parrotting the same team friendly platitudes every time he wins all the team gets otherwise is petulant whining over the radio and a face and manner like a smacked arse afterwards to the press.....

Exactly.. he acts VERY entitled.

He acts like a spoiled rich kid.. who's daddy bought him a pony.. but didn't buy the most expensive saddle.

He is MUCH better than he used to be. In 2007-2008 he was intolerable IMO. Since 2009.. it was a bit of a reality check for him.. the way F1 really works.. and how close in talent all the drivers are. He seemed to start understanding that.. and got rid of his father as management and started to embrace the other drivers more.. instead of alienating himself from them.

The last few years he's been much better.. I think the main thing now for him is just frustration. He still has that entitled spoiled thing going on though.. not as much.. but it's still there.

I am actually cheering for him in Merc.. because he's been brave to walk away.. and start from scratch. He is a VERY talented driver and is exciting to watch. His abilities are overestimated by his fans IMO.. but even despite that.. he is a very gifted driver.

I'd like to see him win a couple titles with Merc.. or at the very least.. to be in the fight for them, right up until the last race or two. His people skills are lacking.. his ego is large.. but it's an exciting story.. F1 needs stories like this. It makes you want to tune in to see how he will cope. He has the talent.. he just needs some luck and to unlock the other aspects of being one of the F1 greats.

First step for Lewis - Stop seperating himself from the team.. and talk about themselves together as one.. not just after a race win.. but all the time. Even in the bad times. If the balance is wrong.. don't complain.. because it's his job to help make the balance good. In fairness to Lewis.. he DID do this last weekend in Suzuka. It's very possible once in a different team environment.. that he will start to change who he is as a person. It's just that things have gone stale at McLaren like a bad marriage.. it was the right time to move on.

#132 ForzaGTR

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:49

Exactly.. he acts VERY entitled.

He acts like a spoiled rich kid.. who's daddy bought him a pony.. but didn't buy the most expensive saddle.

He is MUCH better than he used to be. In 2007-2008 he was intolerable IMO. Since 2009.. it was a bit of a reality check for him.. the way F1 really works.. and how close in talent all the drivers are. He seemed to start understanding that.. and got rid of his father as management and started to embrace the other drivers more.. instead of alienating himself from them.

The last few years he's been much better.. I think the main thing now for him is just frustration. He still has that entitled spoiled thing going on though.. not as much.. but it's still there.

I am actually cheering for him in Merc.. because he's been brave to walk away.. and start from scratch. He is a VERY talented driver and is exciting to watch. His abilities are overestimated by his fans IMO.. but even despite that.. he is a very gifted driver.

I'd like to see him win a couple titles with Merc.. or at the very least.. to be in the fight for them, right up until the last race or two. His people skills are lacking.. his ego is large.. but it's an exciting story.. F1 needs stories like this. It makes you want to tune in to see how he will cope. He has the talent.. he just needs some luck and to unlock the other aspects of being one of the F1 greats.

First step for Lewis - Stop seperating himself from the team.. and talk about themselves together as one.. not just after a race win.. but all the time. Even in the bad times. If the balance is wrong.. don't complain.. because it's his job to help make the balance good. In fairness to Lewis.. he DID do this last weekend in Suzuka. It's very possible once in a different team environment.. that he will start to change who he is as a person. It's just that things have gone stale at McLaren like a bad marriage.. it was the right time to move on.


Sounds more like Jenson to me. Lewis is always saying the team win and lose together. Lewis very rarely bashes the team or car. Jenson constantly moans about the car's balance and grip. Lewis is a shining example of a driver that just gets on with it and drives through problems.

#133 HoldenRT

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:50

This video is the truth for those who are curious about what Lewis feels and has to say about his move to Mercedes.



:up:

Good video.

#134 HoldenRT

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:53

Sounds more like Jenson to me. Lewis is always saying the team win and lose together. Lewis very rarely bashes the team or car. Jenson constantly moans about the car's balance and grip. Lewis is a shining example of a driver that just gets on with it and drives through problems.

Lewis is always whining on the radio IMO. Jenson does too.. but Lewis does it in a bratty "I am better than you" sort of way. Like "I deserve better than this".. where as Jenson is always whining in a more girly polite British sort of way.. "ohh so much understeer" etc.

I am not talking about Lewis being entitled in PRESS interviews.. those are easy to fake. Did you know in some interviews in 2008.. after Alonso/Hamilton.. if interviewers asked questions about Alonso to Lewis.. Ron would never let them ask Lewis a question again?? Press interviews are easy to control.

I am talking about Lewis' RAW emotion in the heat of battle.. when he is hot and sweaty in the car.. and doesn't give a crap about any journalists opinion and is so pissed off.. he just says what he thinks. Instead of trying to say the right thing. The thing that PR people train you to say. Because you say one thing in F1.. and it's all over the papers and being misquoted. So it's hard to judge anything from press interviews. It's like politics.

Despite anything I have criticised.. Lewis a lot more likable these days. And you could tell in what he was saying in that video, that he meant every word he said.

#135 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:56

If it goes well It will be because of Brawn and the rest of the team. If it doesn't go well it will be because Hamilton lacks the ability to lead the team etc.


hmmm, I think it might be vice versa on this forum to be honest  ;)

#136 Clatter

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:58

Sounds more like Jenson to me. Lewis is always saying the team win and lose together. Lewis very rarely bashes the team or car. Jenson constantly moans about the car's balance and grip. Lewis is a shining example of a driver that just gets on with it and drives through problems.


So JB talks to the team about balance and grip in an attempt to try and make the car faster, but that's just moaning to you. LH says nothing and just gets on with it, which sounds great, but means the car could actually be even quicker if he didn't just try to drive round problems.

It's not a case of moaning, nor do I believe LH isn't saying the exact same things when he needs to.

#137 peroa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:08

Lewis is always whining on the radio IMO. Jenson does too.. but Lewis does it in a bratty "I am better than you" sort of way. Like "I deserve better than this".. where as Jenson is always whining in a more girly polite British sort of way.. "ohh so much understeer" etc.

I am not talking about Lewis being entitled in PRESS interviews.. those are easy to fake. Did you know in some interviews in 2008.. after Alonso/Hamilton.. if interviewers asked questions about Alonso to Lewis.. Ron would never let them ask Lewis a question again?? Press interviews are easy to control.

I am talking about Lewis' RAW emotion in the heat of battle.. when he is hot and sweaty in the car.. and doesn't give a crap about any journalists opinion and is so pissed off.. he just says what he thinks. Instead of trying to say the right thing. The thing that PR people train you to say. Because you say one thing in F1.. and it's all over the papers and being misquoted. So it's hard to judge anything from press interviews. It's like politics.

Despite anything I have criticised.. Lewis a lot more likable these days. And you could tell in what he was saying in that video, that he meant every word he said.

He does? Examples maybe?
If you follow the races closely for the last couple of years you probably noticed that JB's communications with his engineer are a common guest in the live feed, the ratio probably being 5:1 comapred to LH.
Seriously, you want PR lines on the radio?
So what is he supposed to say, awesome job guys?
It's pretty easy judging on your sofa.


#138 03011969

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:03

Lewis is always whining on the radio IMO. Jenson does too.. but Lewis does it in a bratty "I am better than you" sort of way. Like "I deserve better than this".. where as Jenson is always whining in a more girly polite British sort of way.. "ohh so much understeer" etc.

I am not talking about Lewis being entitled in PRESS interviews.. those are easy to fake. Did you know in some interviews in 2008.. after Alonso/Hamilton.. if interviewers asked questions about Alonso to Lewis.. Ron would never let them ask Lewis a question again?? Press interviews are easy to control.

I am talking about Lewis' RAW emotion in the heat of battle.. when he is hot and sweaty in the car.. and doesn't give a crap about any journalists opinion and is so pissed off.. he just says what he thinks. Instead of trying to say the right thing. The thing that PR people train you to say. Because you say one thing in F1.. and it's all over the papers and being misquoted. So it's hard to judge anything from press interviews. It's like politics.

Despite anything I have criticised.. Lewis a lot more likable these days. And you could tell in what he was saying in that video, that he meant every word he said.

Part of the reason McLaren were happy enough to see him leave perhaps?

#139 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:13

MS has exhibited more patience throughout his career than LH.

LH will not be designing the car. Just like MS did not design his cars.

But I want to see how LH behaves when the Mercs wheels fall off.

I want to hear what he says, and how he says it.

I want to see his body language.

I have serious reservations about his maturity.

I have no doubt about his utter speed.

Will he mature into a solid leader like FA, who himself threw tantrums like a child?

I hope so, for his sake!

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#140 as65p

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:15

Hopefully :D

Look at it another way, Lewis was available, if he signed for macca that's him and alonso off the table for the next few years and vettel likely to stay at rb or go to Ferrari...


Yeah, I can see that.

Then again, they could have signed Hamilton for 2014, and more, Hamilton himself could have signed a one-year deal with McLaren, don't think they would have refused if he had cut his salary demands sufficiently for that one year.

That's what, from my limited armchairs position, I consider the best solution for all parties. But we'll see.

Right now, with everyones including Hamiltons expectations appearing pretty low for MGP 2013, I still can't quite figure how he seemingly throws one year in a likely very competitive, maybe WDC capable McLaren into the gutter to trundle around in a Mercedes. Not that I'm overly concerned with the decision (understatement alert!), I just don't understand it. It's not as if his relationship with the team is even 10 percent as shattered as you-know-whose back in the day.

#141 Riverside

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:17

the real question is

CAN MERCEDES RISE TO THE LEWIS CHALLANGE???

Let's not kid ourselves, Lewis (aside from Tw@tter blunder) is natural fast driver. as many F1 pundits before me have said :smoking: that Nico is the sort of driver who drives to the limit of the car, but never really outperforms the car. looking back last 2 years, it's in fact Schumi who in many occation outperformed the car. but lewis is someone who can out perform the car. to prove my point, i'd like to point to 2009 macca season.

but what i fear is this, it's no secret Merc chews up it's rear tires faster than an average american goes through his quarter-pounder. Lewis is somewhat aggresive driver. he likes to slide the car more than say JB. merc really has a job on their hand producing a car to suit LH's driving style. Traction is something merc's just doesn't have. look at the move by kimi against schumi at eau rouge this year. the mercs always seemed to me a rear-biased car. maybe it's wheel base or lack of mid-range torque from powerfull merc engine, i don't know. also funny enough, merc looks like a car that's both too stiff and too soft in the same GP. i don't know if that's driver preference but it's something that's puzzled me. so Merc+haug+brawn needs to sort all these shit out and give lewis the car he needs, not the other way round.


So go back to Nico driving a Williams scoring 34.5 points to Lewis's 49 that year and your point goes down the drain. Lewis drove very well considering but I guess your forget that Mclaren had the best KERS in 2009. Albeit MS has upped his game this year - overall Nico has been the far better driver at Merc over three years.

As for Lewis being up to the challenge? Only time will tell - this year when the contract is signed and the dust starts to settle ... Lewis says he relaxed and going to concentrate on winning
the championship for "this team" (Mclaren) . If his tweeting is any indication of his level of concentration - I'd say that 2013 will be interesting to say the least.


#142 03011969

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:23

So go back to Nico driving a Williams scoring 34.5 points to Lewis's 49 that year and your point goes down the drain. Lewis drove very well considering but I guess your forget that Mclaren had the best KERS in 2009. Albeit MS has upped his game this year - overall Nico has been the far better driver at Merc over three years.

As for Lewis being up to the challenge? Only time will tell - this year when the contract is signed and the dust starts to settle ... Lewis says he relaxed and going to concentrate on winning
the championship for "this team" (Mclaren) . If his tweeting is any indication of his level of concentration - I'd say that 2013 will be interesting to say the least.

I think the relationship with Ross Brawn is key - and if Lewis is willing to shut up and LEARN from Ross it could be an amazingly fruitful time for him. I also think Lewis' relationship with Whitmarsh will improve once he's left, as it does for many kids when the leave home.

#143 bub

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:25

Exactly.. he acts VERY entitled.


You see it as a sense of entitlement, I see it as being highly competitive and having very high standards/demanding perfection. Probably picked up off his father and Ron Dennis. It doesn't always work or come across well but as you say he seems to have learned and toned it down over the years.


#144 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:28

I think the relationship with Ross Brawn is key - and if Lewis is willing to shut up and LEARN from Ross it could be an amazingly fruitful time for him. I also think Lewis' relationship with Whitmarsh will improve once he's left, as it does for many kids when the leave home.


Learn what from Ross? How to mismanage a team and turn a well funded operation into a laughing stock. He failed with Honda dollars and now is failing with Merc dollars. The sooner Merc can cut the sweaty flab from its management the better the team will perform.

#145 Kvothe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:36

]So go back to Nico driving a Williams scoring 34.5 points to Lewis's 49 that year and your point goes down the drain. Lewis drove very well considering but I guess your forget that Mclaren had the best KERS in 2009. [/b]Albeit MS has upped his game this year - overall Nico has been the far better driver at Merc over three years.

As for Lewis being up to the challenge? Only time will tell - this year when the contract is signed and the dust starts to settle ... Lewis says he relaxed and going to concentrate on winning
the championship for "this team" (Mclaren) . If his tweeting is any indication of his level of concentration - I'd say that 2013 will be interesting to say the least.


IMO the Williams car was the faster for most of the season, and Nico let several opportunities to win or get good positions slip through his fingers such as crossing the pit exit line at Singapore resulting in a penalty. Also McLaren may have had the best KERS but the system itself came at the expense of compromising the chassis and unlike in 2011, there was no mandated weight handicap for not racing with it, meaning it also had a weight disadvantage when compared to the non-KERS cars.

As for his level of concentration I would think his driving which has been superb (the only front running driver not to have made an on track mistake) would be a much better indication than some tweets.

Edited by Kvothe, 10 October 2012 - 13:40.


#146 Woody3says

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:38

Marko giving his usual two cents on next year. Stirring the pot a bit I'd say!

http://www.motorspor...eaving-mclaren/

#147 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:39

Yeah, I can see that.

Then again, they could have signed Hamilton for 2014, and more, Hamilton himself could have signed a one-year deal with McLaren, don't think they would have refused if he had cut his salary demands sufficiently for that one year.

That's what, from my limited armchairs position, I consider the best solution for all parties. But we'll see.

Right now, with everyones including Hamiltons expectations appearing pretty low for MGP 2013, I still can't quite figure how he seemingly throws one year in a likely very competitive, maybe WDC capable McLaren into the gutter to trundle around in a Mercedes. Not that I'm overly concerned with the decision (understatement alert!), I just don't understand it. It's not as if his relationship with the team is even 10 percent as shattered as you-know-whose back in the day.


I don't think that was on the table tbh, for me it's a pity that Lewis's deal didn't run out a year later as I've no doubt he would prefer to be in the macca next year and I agree that would have been the best solution for Lewis at least.

I personally think he just felt the need to get out of mclaren...I think he's probably lost a bit of faith in the team from RB outgunning them in 2010/11 and then an opportunity with the quickest car chucked down the drain with team errors and unreliability. I mean lets face it, if HRT were underfueling their cars in quali and doing double digit pot stops consistently they'd be a laughing stock.

May also be an issue with his relationship with the team or team members, add that to a loss of faith and the fact he's been there his whole life, possibly parent/child issues (on either side) andI just think he needed to get out.

I don't think he'd be leaving if he'd raced elsewhere prior to joining mac originally.

As I've said elsewhere, fervently hoping that the mercdes is surprisingly competitive, him losing to vettel (argh) or alonso this year and having a chance next year is one thing, losing and then handing that chance to button on a silver platter is another.

EDIT -forgot to mention being sold a dream by ross and Lauda.

Edited by robefc, 10 October 2012 - 13:42.


#148 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:27

IMO the Williams car was the faster for most of the season, and Nico let several opportunities to win or get good positions slip through his fingers such as crossing the pit exit line at Singapore resulting in a penalty...


What are the others? I've seen that one mistake brought up repeatedly as an example of Nico wasting opportunities that year. I don't think I've ever seen other examples. I usually take 2009 as a pretty good year for Nico, doing a pretty good job in that Williams.

#149 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:30

Marko giving his usual two cents on next year. Stirring the pot a bit I'd say!

http://www.motorspor...eaving-mclaren/

Lol

""Niki has done us a favour," said outspoken Austrian Marko. "He has weakened Lewis and McLaren.
"Next year, we have two opponents less,"

Don't think much of his arithmetic tbh, but I guess it was said with a smile. A predatory smile, perhaps; I daresay RBR and Ferrari are indeed thinking they only have each other to worry about next year.

#150 Riverside

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:55

IMO the Williams car was the faster for most of the season, and Nico let several opportunities to win or get good positions slip through his fingers such as crossing the pit exit line at Singapore resulting in a penalty. Also McLaren may have had the best KERS but the system itself came at the expense of compromising the chassis and unlike in 2011, there was no mandated weight handicap for not racing with it, meaning it also had a weight disadvantage when compared to the non-KERS cars.

As for his level of concentration I would think his driving which has been superb (the only front running driver not to have made an on track mistake) would be a much better indication than some tweets.



Can't quite agree that the Williams was on par for most of the season considering from Germany onwards Lewis was able to get four poles and two victories ....


Lewis has had a great 2012 - definitely. His one mistake (debatable) was dicing with Pastor resulting in a DNF...

The rest of the season is a precursor to Merc - presently he has no pressure with his deal signed and practically out of the the WDC.