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Can Hamilton rise to the Mercedes challenge? [split]


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#151 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:01

Lol

""Niki has done us a favour," said outspoken Austrian Marko. "He has weakened Lewis and McLaren.
"Next year, we have two opponents less,"

Don't think much of his arithmetic tbh, but I guess it was said with a smile. A predatory smile, perhaps; I daresay RBR and Ferrari are indeed thinking they only have each other to worry about next year.


He may like to think that but I think he might be proved wrong if he thinks that McLaren will be weakened next year.

Personally I think McLaren will be more harmonious and therefore more effective. I predict a far more consistent team performance next season.

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#152 bourbon

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:17

Can Hamilton rise to the Mercedes Challenge?

of course.

Will he?

absolutely.

#153 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:19

He may like to think that but I think he might be proved wrong if he thinks that McLaren will be weakened next year.

Personally I think McLaren will be more harmonious and therefore more effective. I predict a far more consistent team performance next season.


Um, are you trying to pin team mess ups on Lewis?!

#154 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:24

Um, are you trying to pin team mess ups on Lewis?!


No, but I think it's clear that there has been a relationship breakdown between him and McLaren. This can obviously effect the focus of the team.

#155 BernieEc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:31

No, but I think it's clear that there has been a relationship breakdown between him and McLaren. This can obviously effect the focus of the team.


So hamilton relationship with team caused the team to lose focus and make judgmental and silly errors with regards to proper fueling of car, strategy calls and pitstop.

Unbelievable ...thought I'd heard it all......thats the "Laziest" excuse I have ever heard

#156 SunnyENTP

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:33

Marko giving his usual two cents on next year. Stirring the pot a bit I'd say!

http://www.motorspor...eaving-mclaren/



More like telling the truth. Quali is so important in todays F1 and RB could not be happier to have one less car to worry about. Button and Perez are the weaker team mates in Qualification.

#157 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:36

So hamilton relationship with team caused the team to lose focus and make judgmental and silly errors with regards to proper fueling of car, strategy calls and pitstop.

Unbelievable ...thought I'd heard it all......thats the "Laziest" excuse I have ever heard


So you don't think a relationship breakdown can effect a teams peformance?

#158 BernieEc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:59

So you don't think a relationship breakdown can effect a teams peformance?


Not in the context you have put it. This so called performance relates to basic human errors that have happened on both sides of the garage albeit a bit more on Lewis's side but both sides nevertheless......

A front jackman not being able to lift a jack

rear gun man (not 1 or 2 but at least 3 different individuals) who constantly drop the gun or drop the nuts.......

Engineer not putting enough fuel in the car and the senior management were aware but yet let the car go into Q3 thinking they could blag their way in front of the FIA...thats just silly and plain dumb....

every other team had their drivers at the in-season test and when Lewis suggested he go he was overruled and what the hell do you know... 2 weeks later Button had his setup hiatus


am sorry these are more operational errors due to incompetence. If it was the relationship as you have alluded to...then since the pitstop got better that will suggest the relationship has also gotten better. if not I expect McLaren to be doing a 15 second pitstop now if there's a correlation under these circumstances.

Mclaren were incompetent because they were......I don't think this had to do with Lewis relationship with them....

Look at this way how many times this season has Whitmarsh mentioned "In hindsight"......once someone sticks that phrase in every so often...then operational errors are defintiely the order of the day...

blaming this particular instance on a relationship witht he driver is a bit if a stretch. The answer to your question is relationship can affect performance is true to some but I wouldn't neccesarily agree with that in this instance.



#159 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:06

So you don't think a relationship breakdown can effect a teams peformance?

Lots of things can affect team performance, like changing all the race crew so they mess up pitstops and press the wrong button on the fueller for example.

But...RBR and Ferrari have their star driver each - the driver the engineers all know will drive the wheels off their creation come what may. The driver they know does not need a car advantage. For whom a bad weekend means 4th. That has an effect I reckon.

Now Mercedes will have one, while McLaren will have the super smooth JB, who can be sublime, or 7th.

There's a reason both teams were willing to pay so much for LH, and it's not for the luxury of an easy ride I wouldn't think. Energy levels next year will rise at Merc.

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#160 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:32

Not in the context you have put it. This so called performance relates to basic human errors that have happened on both sides of the garage albeit a bit more on Lewis's side but both sides nevertheless......

A front jackman not being able to lift a jack

rear gun man (not 1 or 2 but at least 3 different individuals) who constantly drop the gun or drop the nuts.......

Engineer not putting enough fuel in the car and the senior management were aware but yet let the car go into Q3 thinking they could blag their way in front of the FIA...thats just silly and plain dumb....

every other team had their drivers at the in-season test and when Lewis suggested he go he was overruled and what the hell do you know... 2 weeks later Button had his setup hiatus


am sorry these are more operational errors due to incompetence. If it was the relationship as you have alluded to...then since the pitstop got better that will suggest the relationship has also gotten better. if not I expect McLaren to be doing a 15 second pitstop now if there's a correlation under these circumstances.

Mclaren were incompetent because they were......I don't think this had to do with Lewis relationship with them....

Look at this way how many times this season has Whitmarsh mentioned "In hindsight"......once someone sticks that phrase in every so often...then operational errors are defintiely the order of the day...

blaming this particular instance on a relationship witht he driver is a bit if a stretch. The answer to your question is relationship can affect performance is true to some but I wouldn't neccesarily agree with that in this instance.


Your fellow Lewis fans might disagree with that.

Not sure why it would be a stretch, most credible explanation I would have thought. The examples you give are exactly the kind of errors you might expect from an unfocused team, not sure why this instance would be an exception, other than you want it to be.


#161 HP

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:36

We are set to discover a hidden trait in Hamilton I think. If it will work out with Mercedes that remains to be seen though.

This is some of what DC wrote a few days ago in his Autosport column.

http://plus.autospor...-mercedes-move/

McLaren's a strange team in some respects. It has all the passion and history of Ferrari, but there's often a disconnect between the senior management and drivers. I spent nine seasons there and I still feel like a stranger every time I go back to Woking. If anyone should feel welcome, it's a driver who was there for nine years, so you have to wonder whether Lewis is experiencing the same thing.


He talks pretty much about what I have noticed too and kept me from being a fan of McLaren (under Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarsh's leadership).

From what DC wrote I can understand why Hamilton wanted to leave. Where he was going wasn't his biggest concern. But Hamilton wanted a change, and apparently McLaren didn't want anything of that. I can understand both sides. Hamilton probably feels that McLaren is more often than not a top team, but not good enough for the top spot. McLaren management knows how to be successful and for that reason they don't see the need for change.

That's like a child growing up until adulthood. There comes a time a child has grown up, and want to take charge of his/her own life. That's going to happen, and the chiild will leave parents sooner or later. However if said kid will develop and be successful with his/her own ideas remains to be seen and is a process. We'll going to see how Hamilton develops.

Maybe the experiment ends up like being the beginning of the end of LH's F1 career. Even if it becomes so, LH in my understanding is already and will be a success regardless of hte outcome of his time at Mercedes. With his decision to go to Mercedes he demonstrated his leadership skills. It's simple really. A real leader needs to have the willingness to change and make uncommon/unpopular/'unsafe' decisions. That's what Hamilton did. Besides that Hamilton has a large following, therefore he is a leader in that respect too.

Whitmarsh however is a perfect manager. He doesn't want to rock the boat, etc. Perfect attitude for his kind of job.

But it leads to predictable clashes between him and Hamilton.

So to answer to OP's question: From my POV Hamilton already rose to the Mercedes challenge when he signed the contract. If it fails, I just wish that Hamilton is given another chance to prove himself. Something that is rare in F1 (JVi a bad example of that). If he succeeds (and that's what I wish LH), the naysayers will have to eat their hats. As usual.


#162 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:38

He may like to think that but I think he might be proved wrong if he thinks that McLaren will be weakened next year.

Personally I think McLaren will be more harmonious and therefore more effective. I predict a far more consistent team performance next season.


More harmonious and slower I forsee..... :)

At least on that glorious occasion once or twice a season, when JB gets the balance just right , they will all be able to celebrate together.


#163 robefc

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:03

Your fellow Lewis fans might disagree with that.

Not sure why it would be a stretch, most credible explanation I would have thought. The examples you give are exactly the kind of errors you might expect from an unfocused team, not sure why this instance would be an exception, other than you want it to be.


The same guys do the pitstops for both guys don't they?

#164 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:06

Thread is not about McLaren, or Jenson v Lewis. While these matters might influence your view, the aim of the topic is to discuss whether Lewis can successfully rise to the challenge of leading Mercedes.

#165 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:33

The same guys do the pitstops for both guys don't they?


Yes, and?

#166 Kvothe

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:39

What are the others? I've seen that one mistake brought up repeatedly as an example of Nico wasting opportunities that year. I don't think I've ever seen other examples. I usually take 2009 as a pretty good year for Nico, doing a pretty good job in that Williams.


Australia:

Started 5th, made it upto fourth, and would have been a prime contender for second place (After Vettel, and bob crashed), had he managed his tyres the supersofts and not dropped back to 8th before the mentioned collision gave him sixth. Was beaten by Lewis Hamilton (In a much worser car) who started 18th and technically finished 3rd. before he was disqualified.

Malaysia: Started sixth and dropped back to eight was beaten by Lewis, who started 13th.

China: Started 7th, dropped back to 16th, beaten again by Lewis who finished 6th after starting 9th behind him.





#167 senna da silva

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:46

Does anyone know when Lewis's contract ends so he can begin work at Merc?
I believe he can and will rise to the challenge!

Edited by senna da silva, 10 October 2012 - 17:47.


#168 Mandzipop

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:50

Does anyone know when Lewis's contract ends so he can begin work at Merc?
I believe he can and will rise to the challenge!


He starts with Merc 1st January 2013.

#169 MirNyet

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:55

Does anyone know when Lewis's contract ends so he can begin work at Merc?
I believe he can and will rise to the challenge!


1st Jan 2013

#170 senna da silva

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:59

Thanks!

#171 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:53

Australia:

Started 5th, made it upto fourth, and would have been a prime contender for second place (After Vettel, and bob crashed), had he managed his tyres the supersofts and not dropped back to 8th before the mentioned collision gave him sixth. Was beaten by Lewis Hamilton (In a much worser car) who started 18th and technically finished 3rd. before he was disqualified.

Malaysia: Started sixth and dropped back to eight was beaten by Lewis, who started 13th.

China: Started 7th, dropped back to 16th, beaten again by Lewis who finished 6th after starting 9th behind him.


None of those were cases of Nico dropping the ball though. Maybe there was a little bit more to be had in Australia but the car wasn't treating it's tyres well. Malaysia and China were more team errors and problems outside his control, like his visor getting fogged in China.

I remain unconvinced. I think Nico had a pretty good 2009 given what he had to drive.

#172 robefc

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:03

Yes, and?


I could well be misinterpreting but it seemed you were implying that lewis's team made more mistakes than JB's because of Lewis's behaviour.

I can't quite figure out if that is your contention or simply that the Lewis effect disrupted the team for both of them

Edited by robefc, 11 October 2012 - 00:03.


#173 Mauseri

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:32

With Perez as a driver, I see McLaren strugling to qualify in top-10. If they can build a good car still, button might win a race.

#174 velgajski1

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:52

We definitely know he believes he can. Wheter he can do something with Mercedes or not, depends much more on Mercedes than on Hamilton.

#175 Lazy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:08

I could well be misinterpreting but it seemed you were implying that lewis's team made more mistakes than JB's because of Lewis's behaviour.

I can't quite figure out if that is your contention or simply that the Lewis effect disrupted the team for both of them


I was saying just saying that a bad relationship within the team, especially with such a central figure, can disrupt the focus of the team as a whole.

Whether that's Lewis' or the teams fault, or a bit of both is a moot point.

#176 packapoo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:28

On the other hand, can Mercedes rise to the Hamilton challenge.

Creds so far suggest not.
The glory days of the 1930s and seasons 54/55 are just a dim memory - must be a lot of old personell rotating in their graves.

#177 steveninthematrix

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:09

Merc hired a lot of new people and top-guys at the start of 2012; with their resouces and top brains all under one-roof now, you have to believe the 2013 car will be a lot better and hopefully use its tires less....

it will be heartache though if the car is AWESOME and MS just retired, but hey, he has bazillions so he'll be ok

#178 robefc

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:12

I was saying just saying that a bad relationship within the team, especially with such a central figure, can disrupt the focus of the team as a whole.

Whether that's Lewis' or the teams fault, or a bit of both is a moot point.


Fair enough

He must have repaired that relationship pretty well given their awesome pitstops in the last few races :D

#179 Lazy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:18

Fair enough

He must have repaired that relationship pretty well given their awesome pitstops in the last few races :D


Or Sam Micheal is not the complete idiot many thought :)

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#180 Lowest

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:20

This would change alot:

http://www.f1zone.ne...ch-newey/16136/


#181 F1isZen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:56

The onbly issue I have with Hami making the switch to build a competitve team around him is tha.. whilxt he has shown he is a great, fast racer, he has shown very little in the way of being able to grasp, let alone put into practice, the skills necessary to pull a team around him - far from it.

Other than parrotting the same team friendly platitudes every time he wins all the team gets otherwise is petulant whining over the radio and a face and manner like a smacked arse afterwards to the press.....



This is because he had spent so long at Mclaren. It is almost like the same situation you get with a spoilt child that has been groomed in cotton wool. Intuitively Hamilton recognizes the need for him to grow beyond that, which is why the temptation of being the highest paid driver on the grid and almost guaranteed a title contending car next season was not enough to sway his decision to stay(I mean what more could a driver want?). It's as if within him, he knew very clearly something was lacking and he wouldn't be able to fill that growth he needs at Mclaren. So I am sure he will learn these things at Mercedes, maybe even the hard way simply because he has gone there for growth, not be a faster driver and he doesn't have the privileges or "Yes Men" available to him like they were at Mclaren.

#182 SchumacherBest01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:00

he cant even choose the right rear wing, showed that he's not sensitive enough inside cockpit to sense the little details which will results in great performance in return.

This is not an issues in mclaren, they got world class simulator and engineers to setup the car based on data collected.

In merc, he will not has such treatment ever!! And we will know how good Lewis is as a driver!!

#183 f1rules

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:13

I'm sorry have to say the same as i said in the button thread, lewis is not up for it. As brilliant a driver he is, as bad he is of track. He's insecure, don't have patience, always blames the team for wrong decisions when he didn't have the courage to decide. He had the opportunity to step into character at mclaren and he didn't grab it. Lewis leading the mercedes team and bringing them to the front, will have around the same chance, as jenson button succeeding with mclaren, so i guess they are both ****ed unfortunately. And this right when mclaren seem to have momentum in car development.

Edited by f1rules, 11 October 2012 - 15:24.


#184 robefc

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:27

Or Sam Micheal is not the complete idiot many thought :)


Yep, to sort out the pit stops whilst also holding back the negative lewis unfocusing force...! :p

More seriously, I imagine a lot of people should be retracting comments/posts re: Sam.

#185 Lazy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:19

Yep, to sort out the pit stops whilst also holding back the negative lewis unfocusing force...! :p

More seriously, I imagine a lot of people should be retracting comments/posts re: Sam.


Indeed, I'm hoping he will focus his efforts on the strategy process next year.

#186 gricey1981

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:22

Yep, to sort out the pit stops whilst also holding back the negative lewis unfocusing force...! :p

More seriously, I imagine a lot of people should be retracting comments/posts re: Sam.


I agree, he definitely turned that right around.