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1994 Penske PC23 Indy Car


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#201 GreenMachine

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 00:25

What's the wall outlet plug for? It looks so out of place . . .


in-tank resistance heater?  ;)

... and yes, couldn't they have found something a bit sexier than a common electrical plug? :rolleyes:

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#202 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:18

in-tank resistance heater?;)

... and yes, couldn't they have found something a bit sexier than a common electrical plug? :rolleyes:


Why? It will look nicer, but with the solution shown you use a simple, readily available (and easily replaced) domestic extension cable to plug in the car and warm it up. The art in these things is NOT to overcomplicate it.

If you've experience of the way and frequency with which the relatively complex custom-made download leads get damaged via crushing or pushed-pin type dramas you'll see why keeping it simple, when you can, is the best policy.

No, not an in-tank resistance heater, but rather a heating pad bonded to the exterior of the tank.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 03 April 2013 - 12:03.


#203 Magoo

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:43

Exactly, You could use a snazzy DIN or MIL connector but then your extension cord is useless.

#204 Thekirkshop

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:10

I'm confused: I can see how this would work for straight line testing, but how do you run a power cord all around Indy??

#205 Tony Matthews

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:03

Those curly cords are very stretchy.

#206 Dipster

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:22

Those curly cords are very stretchy.


And could be plugged in to a wee portable and lightweight genny.

#207 GreenMachine

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:29

Why? It will look nicer, but with the solution shown you use a simple, readily available (and easily replaced) domestic extension cable to plug in the car and warm it up. The art in these things is NOT to overcomplicate it.

If you've experience of the way and frequency with which the relatively complex custom-made download leads get damaged via crushing or pushed-pin type dramas you'll see why keeping it simple, when you can, is the best policy.

No, not an in-tank resistance heater, but rather a heating pad bonded to the exterior of the tank.



It was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I do 'get' practicality.

As to the location, the cord appeared to me to be coming from inside the tank, but I stand corrected.

#208 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:55

Thanks, I take your point. Funnily enough, having spent hours and hours looking at the details of the cars over the years trying to think of ways to tidy them up, simplify or improve them, this was one thing that never struck me as needing change - perhaps because, when not in use, it was tucked down out of sight even when the bodywork was off. Even when it was in sight, it seemed quite a nice visual link to the principle of keeping it simple.

Of course, this has been ultimately tidied up nowadays by deleting it completely through using an off-car heater unit.

#209 Dipster

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:44

Thanks, I take your point. Funnily enough, having spent hours and hours looking at the details of the cars over the years trying to think of ways to tidy them up, simplify or improve them, this was one thing that never struck me as needing change - perhaps because, when not in use, it was tucked down out of sight even when the bodywork was off. Even when it was in sight, it seemed quite a nice visual link to the principle of keeping it simple.

Of course, this has been ultimately tidied up nowadays by deleting it completely through using an off-car heater unit.


Nigel,

Thanks for your interesting posts. Could I ask you:

How much weight did removing this kit save? Did that weight saving measurably increse performance?

Regards

#210 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:34

The weight limit was 1550 lbs (around 705 kg). It was possible to build a car which was quite a lot under that limit (don't ask me for figures - I can't remember). This enabled us to experiment with weight distribution variation via the use of different materials for the skids. We had aluminium, brass and wood variants for the four part skids, so we could change the weight distribution to the extent that it was a detectable change to the driver - both as a result of inertial changes and also because (when moving weight rearwards) it reduced the load on the overloaded front Goodyears, hence reducing understeer. I think CART cars were some way ahead of F1 cars of the time in using weight distribution as a tuning aid. F1 cars with their far lower weight limit (505kg at the time) had far less leeway.

With regard to moving the on-car heating facility to a separate "R2D2" unit, I would think it probably added weight to the car, because of the need to add reliable dry-break Symetrics type couplings.
to the car. Whatever the net change in weight, it would not have had (for us) a measurable effect on performance.

#211 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:03

This is a photo of the pad in question.

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Penske oil tank heater by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

It's a great little device for several reasons but most importantly because it doesn't fail and if it does it's not a race stopper. If a dry brake fails it's burn the car down material. I try very hard to keep my F1 cars 100% original however I make one mod to all of them in that I pre-heat the oil on all of them which was not done in period. Most of the time you can do this via the cap in the top of the oil tank and a long tube -

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Leyton House Oil Tank by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

You then swap the cap back for the original once you're done heating.

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Pre-Heater Rig by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

On the Lotus 98T the cap is too small so we have to run with a dry brake in the bottom of the tank which is not ideal but as long as you wipe it every single time you couple it up it's fine.

The pad solution is the best though - it's light, easy to use and bullet proof, no chance of contaminating the oil and you can plug it in with no kit aside from an extension lead and an adaptor if you are outside the USA.

Edited by Patrick Morgan, 08 April 2013 - 11:04.


#212 Ninja2b

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 16:56

Only just seen your response, Patrick. If this is the case it is pure vandalism, the thought of it actually makes me feel angry. I can see that keeping the drawings might, just might, be inconvenient, but how much space does microfilm take up? Well, I have guarded a considerable number of dieline prints from the drawings for the 265A, B and E if that is of interest. I bet Mercedes have all their original drawings back to 1890-odd.

I suppose there is a chance that they fell into the hands of someone who appreciated and rescued them. One of the joys of them is the different styles, line weights and annotation, seeing the difference between Geoff Oliver and Ian's work for instance. Oh well...


Late reply to an old thread... I worked for MB-HPE for a few years, and did lay my hands on a load of old drawings of the Indy engines. I did put one of the cardboard tubes in the cupboards in dyno 4 ready to 'liberate' it, but lost my nerve as I was worried someone would notice! This was in 2009-2010, so they might still be around somewhere...

#213 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:49

Just put the headers together after re-conditioning. They look really good - these are the 265D quad cam variety hence the twin exhaust ports, the 265E (of 500I if you prefer) only had the one.

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PC-23 Headers by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

Next week we should be mocking the tub up with the engine and gearbox ready for the heat shielding to be made. More photos then.

#214 Magoo

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 14:52

Just put the headers together after re-conditioning. They look really good - these are the 265D quad cam variety hence the twin exhaust ports, the 265E (of 500I if you prefer) only had the one.

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PC-23 Headers by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

Next week we should be mocking the tub up with the engine and gearbox ready for the heat shielding to be made. More photos then.


Beautiful. I can look at pieces like that all day. Thanks for sharing the restoration here.


#215 Canuck

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 15:33

Agreed. My first thought was "mmmm...I'd like to hang those on my living room wall".

What's the purpose of the dual-outlet design?

#216 JacnGille

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 15:48

Beautiful. I can look at pieces like that all day. Thanks for sharing the restoration here.

:up:

#217 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 16:31

Agreed. My first thought was "mmmm...I'd like to hang those on my living room wall".

What's the purpose of the dual-outlet design?


The system is configured so as both banks feed into a single turbo - that's what the two pipes pointing at each other are about. Then just behind each collector you can see a short pipe pointing directly backwards that ends at the wastegates. So there are 3 tailpipes - 2 wastegate and one main from the turbine. In actual fact on this car the left hand wastegate tail pipe joins the main tail pipe so you only see two pipes from the rear - a big wide pipe (turbo and LHS wastegate) and then the smaller pipe from the RHS wastegate. I'll take some more pictures with the system mocked up on the car once we get the chassis back and it will be a little clearer!

#218 Canuck

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 17:53

Makes perfect sense...but more pictures! :D

How did you clean up the front bulkhead? That doesn't look like an easy access area.

#219 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 20:31

With some difficulty. It is really hard to get to as you say and basely involved masking up the tub and getting in there with a small polisher to remove any corrosion. It wasn't actually too bad although re-finising was not easy. Can't really tell you about that bit - be giving the game away but suffice to say I have a very god guy who is ace at that sort of thing.

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#220 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:36

We've now got the tub back from a bit of cosmetic work. The flanks particularly were badly scratched and just about everything had gone dull. It's not quite finished but very close.... We are building it up now as a mockup for the exhaust heat shielding to be produced.

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PC-23 Chassis by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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PC-23 Flank by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Gear lever by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Gear linkage by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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265D by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

#221 Magoo

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 15:09

Gorgeous, really first-rate. Thanks for sharing.

#222 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 16:28

Some good progress this afternoon.... nice when you can make it look a bit like a car rather than a heap of parts!

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265D goes on.... by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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265D RHS by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Exhaust ports by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Primaries and water pipe by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Ilmor Indy V8 by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Under the headers by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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RHS view from above by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Sidepod duct by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Sidepod entry by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

#223 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 16:38

You've got an all-nighter ahead if you're going to make qualifying tomorrow...

#224 JacnGille

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 00:17

You've got an all-nighter ahead if you're going to make qualifying tomorrow...

:clap:

#225 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:27

A few more bits have made it on this morning. The coolers are just taped in at present and the heat exchangers loosely mounted. Still, it's nice to know it fits!

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LHS Water Cooler by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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RHS flank by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Gearbox oil heat exchanger by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Heat exchanger mounting by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Water / Oil heat exchanger by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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LHS bleed tank by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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Water rail by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

#226 funformula

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:46

We've now got the tub back from a bit of cosmetic work. The flanks particularly were badly scratched and just about everything had gone dull. It's not quite finished but very close.... We are building it up now as a mockup for the exhaust heat shielding to be produced.

Posted Image
PC-23 Chassis by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

Posted Image
PC-23 Flank by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr


Patrick,

may I ask you how you removed the paint from the monocoque (sandblasting,...?)
I made it once with sanding paper and I´m not too keen to do it this way again on my next project ;-)

Thanks

#227 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:02

Patrick,

may I ask you how you removed the paint from the monocoque (sandblasting,...?)
I made it once with sanding paper and I´m not too keen to do it this way again on my next project ;-)

Thanks


Very slowly with a scalpel.... The paint was 3mm in places so the first few layers could be sanded but in the end it pretty much pealed off in large chunks it was so thick. The last few layers were the most time consuming and finally your rub it down very carefully with wet and dry. Tom and Ian Castle who work next door to us did the work - they build boats and (exquisite) Tiger Moths most of the time but thought this might make an interesting change! All this sort of stuff is about taking time and care and accepting that although it's not very exciting it will be worth it in the end!

#228 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:40

Posted Image
LHS wastegate and bottom-can pipe by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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RHS wastegate by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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9th Butterfly by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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9th butterfly open by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

#229 NTSOS

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 16:46

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9th Butterfly by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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9th butterfly open by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr


Interesting.....since it's not hooked up, is the 9th butterfly response directly linked to the individual throttle plate action or is it remotely powered by an air cylinder etc.?

Great stuff....thanks!

John

#230 Tony Matthews

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:19

I was always disappointed not to be allowed to show what went on in the plenums, but as it was all trick stuff and vital to the performance of the engines, I wasn't surprised.

#231 funformula

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:50

Very slowly with a scalpel.... The paint was 3mm in places so the first few layers could be sanded but in the end it pretty much pealed off in large chunks it was so thick. The last few layers were the most time consuming and finally your rub it down very carefully with wet and dry. Tom and Ian Castle who work next door to us did the work - they build boats and (exquisite) Tiger Moths most of the time but thought this might make an interesting change! All this sort of stuff is about taking time and care and accepting that although it's not very exciting it will be worth it in the end!


Wow...3mm!!!!!
I guess they were far beyond the weight limit to use so much filler to get an even surface for a proper paint job.
I remember some race cars on which the paint was sprayed so thin you can easily see the woven surface of the carbon fibre.

Did you use some chemical assistance prior of using the scalpel?
Do you want to paint the car in the original colours or do you want to spray the monocoque with clear coat...at least that is what I did on my car and it´s the reason why I had to rub the paint down to the bare carbon.

#232 desmo

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:39

I was always disappointed not to be allowed to show what went on in the plenums, but as it was all trick stuff and vital to the performance of the engines, I wasn't surprised.



Is it to do with supercharging? I ask because the F1 engine makers have on average been (as far as I can tell) at times pretty forthcoming about all the goings on inside the various airboxes, or at least what is visible to the eye. The aero business going on inside a NA racing airbox is pretty exotic stuff in any case with constantly changing significant pressure gradients, vortices and even complete flow reversals at times, all tied to rpm, crankshaft angle and FO. Even having a good visual of the inside won't tell much about what is actually going on. I'm not sure anyone really knows what is in great depth.

Question: is there any way to use the obligatory F1 crankcase puke tubes vented into the airbox to advantage? It just looks like there should be a way.

#233 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:21

Interesting.....since it's not hooked up, is the 9th butterfly response directly linked to the individual throttle plate action or is it remotely powered by an air cylinder etc.?

Great stuff....thanks!

John


On this engine it's connected directly to the linkage that operates the other 8 butterfly's. A year to two later it was operated by a DC motor.

#234 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:11

Is it to do with supercharging? I ask because the F1 engine makers have on average been (as far as I can tell) at times pretty forthcoming about all the goings on inside the various airboxes, or at least what is visible to the eye. The aero business going on inside a NA racing airbox is pretty exotic stuff in any case with constantly changing significant pressure gradients, vortices and even complete flow reversals at times, all tied to rpm, crankshaft angle and FO. Even having a good visual of the inside won't tell much about what is actually going on. I'm not sure anyone really knows what is in great depth.

Question: is there any way to use the obligatory F1 crankcase puke tubes vented into the airbox to advantage? It just looks like there should be a way.


Up until the mid 2000's most F1 inlet systems featured variable geometry inlets as in the trumpets get shorter as rpm increases. There was some suggestion that Honda was playing about with resonance chambers that could be opened or closed but whether they did or not I'm not sure. Aside from that there were or were not splitters separating the banks that appeared or not at various intervals...

The turbo engine inlets tend to offer a bit more in terms of intrigue. The aims are to get the inlet air temp down as far as possible (no inter-cooling allowed), get the boost as high as possible without blowing the valve and try to do the best you can to improve throttle response.

In the case of the first about all you could do was to spray methanol into the air stream. Certainly Honda were doing this and it undoubtedly improved their performance but seemed to hurt their fuel consumption, at least in the mid 1990's. They were also doing some trick stuff with the POV that Toyota managed to protest at the Detroit race in 2001... the positioning of the valve was defined in the rules after Alfa Romeo started putting it on the transition and technically you were not allowed to run "plenum deflectors" or guide veins in the plenum that made the area just underneath the valve a slightly lower pressure than the rest of the chamber. We never tried this but I can only guess that Honda were doing something along these lines as they lost so much performance at Detroit with the valve being lifted 1/2" up. The only thing we ever really did on this was to AV mount the valve to try and keep it stable - this started on the IC108E engine which had a hard mounted plenum hence vibration became quite an issue.

In terms of throttle response Cosworth ran a very neat inlet guide vein system that was effectively a throttle on the ambient side of the compressor. The obvious benefit is that you can stall the compressor when the driver lifts however it's particular arraignment, which looked like 6 spear heads with their points to the centre of the ring on which they were mounted, looked as if they also altered the angle of incidence of the flow onto the compressor blades at part throttle. Not sure if that was by design or even if it made a difference but it was a nice looking part when you got a glimpse of it. I believe Honda also had some intricate air bleed bypass system but what it's function was I'm unsure. We had a very nice progressive throttle that mechanically allowed you to make the throttle opening non linear. By that stage the drivability of the Ilmor engines was suffering badly.... we looked at doing barrel throttle heads but Mercedes pulled out before that engine ran in a car.

Edited by Patrick Morgan, 28 May 2013 - 08:43.


#235 Magoo

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:30

In the case of the first about all you could do was to spray methanol into the air stream. Certainly Honda were doing this and it undoubtedly improved their performance but seemed to hurt their fuel consumption, at least in the mid 1990's. They were also doing some trick stuff with the POV that Toyota managed to protest at the Detroit race in 2001... the positioning of the valve was defined in the rules after Alfa Romeo started putting it on the transition and technically you were not allowed to run "plenum deflectors" or guide veins in the plenum that made the area just underneath the valve a slightly lower pressure than the rest of the chamber. We never tried this but I can only guess that Honda were doing something along these as they lost so much performance at Detroit with the valve being lifted 1/2" up.


I remember it well. The spacers were first passed out earlier in the week at a test at MIS, where the howling began. On the oval, the effect was immediately obvious. This was after Texas when CART was trying to get its arms around the lap speeds. To protest the introduction of the spacer, Ford and Honda sat out the first morning practice at Detroit on Friday and the piefight was on.

Like all the engine suppliers, Honda was required to submit detailed drawings of the plenum interior, but apparently nobody at CART knew quite what they were looking at, and it could be rather difficult to sort out from a 2D representation anyway. Apparently a Toyota guy gave them a tutorial, or so the story goes.

I remember talking to a Honda exec who denied they were whistling the POV, but then, curiously, claimed that the spacer cost them something like 40 hp. Then I pointed out that if they were legal, the spacer shouldn't cost them any output at all. Then the conversation would start over again, and we performed three or four laps of this circular dialogue.

#236 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:34

I told that story to a guy in MotoGP in about 2007(and I should point out it wasn't a Honda Motorcycle engineer or anything) and he made reference to Honda Turbo F1 engines that I didn't quite understand. Or even remember now. But it made it sound like it wasn't their first rodeo.

But there weren't pop-off valves in F1 so, I don't know what was going on there. Maybe it was just 'normal' messing around with air.

That's all I have for today in vague anecdotes.



And on a slightly related note, there's a subsection of the impossibly small Indycar fanbase that's obessed with these kinds of developments as the key to bringing back the golden era. And for the life of me I can never seem to convince them it's a bit obscure even for people who understand race cars at some level. To try to exlain it to your average fan requires first explaining how a turbo works, then a pop-off valve, then we get into fluid dynamic 101, etc. It's usually just easier to say "If a tree falls in the forest.."

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 28 May 2013 - 12:37.


#237 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 13:33

But there weren't pop-off valves in F1 so, I don't know what was going on there.

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#238 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 13:48

Ooooh interesting. I just assumed they didn't exist because I'd never noticed them mentioned and they didn't stick out of the car in a 'spec' location.



#239 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 18:09

Ooooh interesting. I just assumed they didn't exist because I'd never noticed them mentioned and they didn't stick out of the car in a 'spec' location.


The POV appeared in F1 in 1987 when the boost limit was reduced to 4Bar. In 1988 it was reduced again to 2.5Bar.



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#240 Thekirkshop

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 20:24

I told that story to a guy in MotoGP in about 2007(and I should point out it wasn't a Honda Motorcycle engineer or anything) and he made reference to Honda Turbo F1 engines that I didn't quite understand. Or even remember now. But it made it sound like it wasn't their first rodeo.

But there weren't pop-off valves in F1 so, I don't know what was going on there. Maybe it was just 'normal' messing around with air.

That's all I have for today in vague anecdotes.



And on a slightly related note, there's a subsection of the impossibly small Indycar fanbase that's obessed with these kinds of developments as the key to bringing back the golden era. And for the life of me I can never seem to convince them it's a bit obscure even for people who understand race cars at some level. To try to exlain it to your average fan requires first explaining how a turbo works, then a pop-off valve, then we get into fluid dynamic 101, etc. It's usually just easier to say "If a tree falls in the forest.."


I don't imagine this stuff will bring back the golden era, but we, the incredibly small subsection, of a shrinking fanbase, of a series slipping from recent history into vintage racing, chuffing love this thread.

Best Wishes, Chris.

#241 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 22:39

Patrick,

you probably know this already (or I've told you before), but the red Modine logo on your radiators indicates they were experimental cores rather than standard type. We did a lot of work with/for Modine testing different tube and fin styles (i.e. different turbulence producing features) and the like. Standard cores had black logos on them.

With regard to plenums, POVs and ninth butterflies, I was led to believe that one of the functions of the ninth butterfly was to act as a kind of pseudo turning vane to help "cheat" (an emotive word...) the valve. That is to say, it wasn't necessarily aligned with the onset flow. Or did I dream that?

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 May 2013 - 23:00.


#242 gruntguru

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 23:56

With regard to plenums, POVs and ninth butterflies, I was led to believe that one of the functions of the ninth butterfly was to act as a kind of pseudo turning vane to help "cheat" (an emotive word...) the valve. That is to say, it wasn't necessarily aligned with the onset flow. Or did I dream that?

Perhaps to prevent the POV from opening when throttles are suddenly closed from WOT (assuming the POV is connected to the plenum)

#243 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:31

I think that is one of the general purposes of the ninth butterfly, but I was referring to something specific that I thought Ilmor were doing to use the open ninth butterfly as an inlet guide vane, to try to guide the flow entering the plenum. Patrick will undoubtedly remember better than me. For example, on the Penske PC27 the compressor outlet was placed extremely close to the back of the plenum, and this forced the use of a horrible transition which Paul Morgan strongly disapproved of. This was one situation in which I think I recall the ninth butterfly being used to try to help guide the inlet flow.

#244 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:58

That's a new one on me regarding the butterfly Nigel but it could very well be the case. We never actively tried to cheat the valve (to some teams disappointment) but if the butterfly happened to open in a way that helped then you went with that. In terms of the PC-27 there is a bit of history that dates back to the PC-22 / 23. Andrew Hurley had discovered in about 1993 / 1994 that one of the things that was holding back performance was the capacity of the plenum. As you can see from the photos a spacer was added to the 265D for this reason. It's not terribly elegant and I seem to recall my dad saying Nigel Bennett was not happy he had to raise the engine cover but then it I recall Andrew telling me it was a bolt on 30bhp which you can't ignore.

The use of the 9th butterfly was rather restricted by various rule changes. One of the advantages the 265A had over the DFX was that it had very good air distribution in the inlet system. This was down to the inlet from the turbo feeding into the centre of the plenum in the middle of cylinders 2,3,6 and 7. The tract featured not 1 but 2 butterflies and a pile of guide vanes inside it.

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265A Plenum rear by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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265A 9th butterfly by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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265A Plenum underside by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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265A Plenum feed by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr


My understanding (please remember I was 14 at the time) is that this arraignment was outlawed for 1993 and the feed had to come from the rear of the plenum, an arraignment that first featured on the 265C engine. It was found that placing the feed low in the chamber so it blew around the trumpets rather than over them was an advantage. Both Andrew and Mario were very into the detail of the trumpets, particularly the form of the lip. There was a bit of a demon tweak at the base of the trumpet as well where it joined the plenum base but we'll leave that for another time. There was a bit of messing about with the size of the 9th butterfly to tune the velocity of the air (I believe) and you can see on the 265D the actual cast opening in the plenum is much bigger than the butterfly it sits in. The transition also has a false celling so as outwardly it looks larger than in fact it is.... I'm fairly sure this was a conscious effort to dupe the opposition.

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PC-23 transition opening by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

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PC-23 transition by dtperformanceltd, on Flickr

So come the 108E Andrew was adamant that he wanted a large plenum with very big butterflies. Although he got this it was not big enough so an extension was added to it. The down side of adding the extension was that you ended up with the horrible short and bent transition from the turbo. I think the rear of the plenum of that engine was designed to be more integrated into the gearbox like the Toyota engine also designed by Ian Watson. I'm not sure why it never was, maybe the new gearbox with its vertical split lines was much stiffer than anticipated by Ian.

Come the 108F and this was all a little tidier, not that that helped! For that engine we did a huge amount of work on the 9th butterfly - Mo Nunn particularly was obsessed with it as Tony (Kanaan) felt that the rear of the car got very twitchy when he lifted. This all got quite heated and really was the subject that internally divided us - one camp was for ignoring the problem and working on reliability and power, the other camp (largely management) wanting to sort the off throttle spike to pacify the teams and drivers. I was firmly in the first camp but none of us knew the backdrop of Mercedes looking to pull out so in hindsight it became obvious why sorting the butterfly was a big deal. If the teams felt it was a big deal and told Mercedes so - and we then didn't fix it or were incapable of fixing it, it was another step towards our inevitable fate...

Back to the rules and when the electronic 9th butterfly was in full swing the restrictions really got complex. Suddenly you couldn't control boost below 39" which made life difficult in 1st and 2nd gear as you couldn't really bring the butterfly into play until the last second before the valve blew. We also had to scrap, or severely modify, our pit limiter strategy that used the butterfly to help control car speed and prevent the overshoot you get as the spark cut kicks in. There was also some limit on how fast the butterfly could react, I forget the detail and in any case it wasn't until 2000 that we got the mechanical parts to move fast enough. The whole thing got difficult with gears vs. links, POT's vs. LVDT's and trying to keep the DC motor cool. It was all a massive headache.... only one of several at the time.

Edited by Patrick Morgan, 29 May 2013 - 09:34.


#245 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:38

Patrick,

you probably know this already (or I've told you before), but the red Modine logo on your radiators indicates they were experimental cores rather than standard type. We did a lot of work with/for Modine testing different tube and fin styles (i.e. different turbulence producing features) and the like. Standard cores had black logos on them.

With regard to plenums, POVs and ninth butterflies, I was led to believe that one of the functions of the ninth butterfly was to act as a kind of pseudo turning vane to help "cheat" (an emotive word...) the valve. That is to say, it wasn't necessarily aligned with the onset flow. Or did I dream that?


They are marked experimental so I figured.... any reason not to use them? They pressure tested ok.

#246 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 11:23

Posted Image

The very first version of the 265A, complete with mechanical fuel injection. I think Patrick has explained in sufficient detail why Paul and Mario were adamant that no detail of the central feed to the plenum or plenum internals were shown.

One of many Paul's asides that I remember was about the military-spec. looms that accompanied the electronic fuel injection system. When I expressed admiration for them he said "Yes, well, the teams aren't too happy - they're used to $2-worth of bell wire!"



#247 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 11:52

They are marked experimental so I figured.... any reason not to use them? They pressure tested ok.


No reason not to use them, they'll be fine. Any differences will be performance related (i.e they may well cool better than the standard cores) rather than anything that would compromise reliability.

#248 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 13:04

The very first version of the 265A, complete with mechanical fuel injection. I think Patrick has explained in sufficient detail why Paul and Mario were adamant that no detail of the central feed to the plenum or plenum internals were shown.

One of many Paul's asides that I remember was about the military-spec. looms that accompanied the electronic fuel injection system. When I expressed admiration for them he said "Yes, well, the teams aren't too happy - they're used to $2-worth of bell wire!"


I'm sure that's right Tony. I'll tell you what though, better to pay the money and finish rather then trek all the way to Portland, race in the rain and drop out because a $2 non waterproof connector gets water in it and shorts.... You ether have to do it properly or not at all. Having said that Honda (who seem to be featuring a lot in recent posts) did something really neat by using as many road car parts as they could - stuff like Lambda sensors. We used to spend a fortune on Lambdas, getting the connectors swapped etc. They failed regularly (and the cage would always go though the turbine not the wastegate for some reason so also taking out the turbo as it went) and we would run out.... or short at least. Honda could just go down to their local dealership and commandeer a bunch - I assume the same was true of a host of other electrical parts. So when we ended up only running Lambda for practice and only in open loop most of the time Honda were (according to the rumour mill of the time) racing with closed loop.

#249 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 13:56

Useless fact... Mr. Kaneda, who was one of the Honda support engineers with us at Tyrrell in 1991, told me he had designed those Lambda sensors, so I guess he knew they were rugged enough for race car use.

#250 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 14:08

"This new sensor - stronger than TURBINE BLADE!"