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#51 Konsta

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:21

From driving in simulators, as well as F1 games, Istanbul Park wins hands down. It's actually one of my all time favourite tracks, second only to Spa among modern F1 tracks. It's so sad it's no longer on the calendar.

From watching F1 races it's probably still Istanbul Park, but now followed closely by Sepang and Shanghai. Korea and India look good too, but there have not been enough races to say for sure.

I thought a bit (then my brain started to hurt) about what is it that makes a proper track and came to a definitive conclusion. Natural flow and elevation changes - Spa, Suzuka and Istanbul Park all have them. Without either one the track is bound to be horrible - Yas Marina is a prime example. Based on those criteria I have high hopes on COTA.

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#52 Nobody

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:30

1. Turkey
2. Sepang
3. Shanghai

#53 Boxerevo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:39

About this natural flow talk and great circuits... i don't fully agree at all.

This Jeonnam/Korea track,on any simulator i had drove,demands every skill i have to nail each sector.

Is very hard to pull continuously "perfect" laps.

One of my favourites tilkedroms and great track for challenging imo.

#54 lbennie

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:44

A1, Sepang and India are the stand outs
honourable mention to korea and turkey.

he cops way too much flack imo.

blame the cars instead.




#55 Sakae

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:34

It could be interesting to lay down specs for each circuit, with amendments thereafter. Job is not easy, and I merely suspect that many of his harshest critics would learn about realities of a project with multitude of interests, as I suspect, often conflicting. He probably knows that, but it’s not his money, and he obeys wishes of people who pay him to do what they tell him to do; it's not like the guy is on his own without a steering committee "advising" him on every step he makes. Take Spa, a track whose character is pretty much determined by nature's features, restricting much talk from side-lines, as opposed to some desolate forsaken sandy place which no one really wanted, and they asking you to cram in as many VIP spots, access, comfort, etc. only to find out that ground is unstable which creates another compromise, and racing aspect might not be always on the top. It is rather miracle that any of those tracks actually resemble something cars can drive on.

Edited by Sakae, 10 October 2012 - 06:38.


#56 akshay380

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:13

Many will change their opinions about Indian track after this years race. Its pretty awesome. Just hoping that the dust and smog reduces this year.

Edited by akshay380, 10 October 2012 - 07:14.


#57 GSiebert

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:36

Is there no one else in the world who can design race tracks?

Yes

When was the last time a non-Tilke track was added to the calendar?

I think Indianapolis' infield section wasn't designed by Tilke.

#58 Konsta

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:43

Yes


I think Indianapolis' infield section wasn't designed by Tilke.

So it is very much possible for someone else to create a crappy track too :)

Indy infield was just bad - OTOH on a flat field there is only so much one can do.

#59 Jackmancer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:57

My favourite track designer is actually John Hugenholtz, he designed Suzuka and Jarama in Spain as well. (Jarama <3 <3 <3) Original Hockenheim is his as well.

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#60 Massa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:05

India, Sepang, Turkey are fantastic. The problem for Sepang it's the track is way too wide. This track would be way more challenging with Suzuka width.

The same for Austin, this track is way too much wide. It's insane.

Edited by Massa, 10 October 2012 - 09:08.


#61 Jovanotti

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:11

Well A1 isn't really Tilkes creation, it's basically a scaled back version of the old Österreichring (which was better than the new layout btw...).

Malaysia, Turkey and (by the looks of it) Austin for me.

#62 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:47

My favourite track designer is actually John Hugenholtz, he designed Suzuka and Jarama in Spain as well. (Jarama <3 <3 <3) Original Hockenheim is his as well.


Jarama? That was a Tilkedrome before that term was even a thing.

#63 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:56

It's probably heresay, but putting aside the rights/wrong of the original decision to change it's nature, I don't think he did a bad job with Hockenheim. By the metric of close racing, he seems to have got it right.

#64 William Hunt

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:21

My favourite track designer is actually John Hugenholtz, he designed Suzuka and Jarama in Spain as well. (Jarama <3 <3 <3) Original Hockenheim is his as well.


He also designed Zolder and Ontario Motor Speedway. Hockenheim was a very old track, he only designed the statium section there. Suzuka is a masterpiece!

Edited by William Hunt, 10 October 2012 - 10:21.


#65 MP422

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:58

There is nothing wrong with tilke tracks. People just like to moan.

#66 wingwalker

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:27

There is nothing wrong with tilke tracks. People just like to moan.




http://www.paddockta...in-aerial-2.jpg


It needs more tarmac run offs I think.

Edited by wingwalker, 10 October 2012 - 12:29.


#67 ali.unal

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:31

On a side note, today a tender has been completed for the running of Istanbul Park. Perhaps that will turn out to be a move to get back Formula 1 to Turkey. I do sincerely hope.

Malaysia and Turkey are the best Tilke tracks for me. India is OK and I am hopeful for Texas as well. It might bring Turn 8 back to the calender :)

#68 waynea

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:03

Is none an acceptable answer. It is like voting, why choose the lesser evil.


#69 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:42

For everyone saying Austin:

Tilke didnt design the track but his construction company is in charge of building it. The track layout was Schwantz and Helmund. Thats why its the only "Tilkedrome" that looks half decent.

Tilke should be sacked. He is out of ideas. He gets every contract because he is friends with Bernie.

#70 zztopless1

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:09

Many will change their opinions about Indian track after this years race. Its pretty awesome. Just hoping that the dust and smog reduces this year.


It's already amazing imo, the sequence of corner from turn 5 to 15 are breathtaking and one of the few sections of track on the calendar that actually make the cars look fast on TV. Will be even better this year now that they are going to clean the track up, hopefully leading to even more overtaking.

Austin look spectacular too, can't wait to see it in action. Tilke definitely gets a bad rap. China, Malaysia, Turkey, New Hockenheim, Korea, India and even Bahrain (let down by the landscape and lack of elevation changes) are all good tracks that can produce good racing. Abu Dhabi is the only real disappointment in terms of tracks that have been built from scratch, but they obviously wanted a street track feel for the cameras, which means chicanes instead of fast corners due to a lack of runoff.

#71 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:15

What annoys me about Bahrain is the outer part of the circuit which is literally long straight-tight corner-long straight-tight corner-long straight-tight corner forming a big triangle. The fast chicane, tricky T9-10 and fast sweepers that make up the rest are pretty good.

Come to think of it, that sequence is exactly what I don't like about Yeongam. Except it's a Z instead of a triangle.

#72 fer312t

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:31

No matter how good the layout, if it is too wide, with too much asphalt runoff, with the majority of all natural terrain removed, the track will inevitably be junk...

If you plonked down Spa in the middle of the desert or the ubiquitous Tilke construction pit, widened it by 30 feet and paved the edges of the circuit, 80% of it's charisma and challenge would be gone...

#73 Jackmancer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:48

Jarama? That was a Tilkedrome before that term was even a thing.


Why would you think that? The track follows the natural landscape, has a lot of aggressive Turns, is very narrow top

The track does feature a two-turns in one design which Malaysia does too (and Turkey), but thats it.

Edited by Jackmancer, 11 October 2012 - 08:49.


#74 froggy22

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:57

The only tracks that have been a let down are Yas Marina, Valencia and maybe Singapore. Singapore is just too long, Valencia is the definition of bland and Yas Marina just has no redeeming quality

Bahrain can produce good racing, while it does appear to be boring from the scenery. While A1 Ring is simple, its simpleness is what made it unique and special. It meant that drivers were always pushing the limits trying to gain that extra tenth that could make all the difference. Thats why we used to get so many slow-mo replays of drivers putting a couple wheels on the gravel during an Austrian GP weekend. I think thats the main difference between Bahrain and A1 Ring, just doesnt look like the drivers are pushing the limits at Bahrain

I think Korea is good, Shanghai doesnt appear to be anything brilliant yet year after year we're getting fantastic races. Turkey was obviously great, shame its not on the calender. Sepang is very underrated, i liked it from the very first race in 1999

I think the one that surprised me the most has to be India. I think this track has the potential to be great. Once you get past the ridiculously long straights you arrive at some spectacular corners that make up a great section of track. A section of track you wouldnt mind being added to Spa as it wouldnt kill any of its flow. From what i can remember from last year the cars were flying through the middle section. Definitely his best piece of work since Turkey.

I'll reserve judgment on COTA till i see it properly, even though im not as overly impressed as everyone else seems to be.

#75 Wheels23

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:01

All of them

I like all tracks from ChimpanA to Champanzee

But seriously there is no track that I dislike. Maybe most V8 Supercars track but that's a different story and not F1

#76 aditya-now

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:05

A1 is his only act of brilliance, the rest is shit.


A1
Sepang
Istanbul

Also Singapore is great, but not because of the track layout which is pretty much a given, but because of the city's atmosphere and the night race.

Besides Monaco Singapore is probably the greatest venue for a street race. That said, I could well imagine Hong Kong, Rio de Janeiro (Copacabana, Ipanema - going through the tunnel!) and Cape Town for great street races.


#77 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:14

Why would you think that? The track follows the natural landscape, has a lot of aggressive Turns, is very narrow top

The track does feature a two-turns in one design which Malaysia does too (and Turkey), but thats it.


When it was new it was considered slow and uninspiring with tons of run-off and too many hairpins.

Actually it's not a bad track by today's standards, but I don't think anyone liked it back in 1968. Still don't consider it a great track.

#78 midgrid

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:14

The only tracks that have been a let down are Yas Marina, Valencia and maybe Singapore. Singapore is just too long, Valencia is the definition of bland and Yas Marina just has no redeeming quality

Bahrain can produce good racing, while it does appear to be boring from the scenery. While A1 Ring is simple, its simpleness is what made it unique and special. It meant that drivers were always pushing the limits trying to gain that extra tenth that could make all the difference. Thats why we used to get so many slow-mo replays of drivers putting a couple wheels on the gravel during an Austrian GP weekend. I think thats the main difference between Bahrain and A1 Ring, just doesnt look like the drivers are pushing the limits at Bahrain

I think Korea is good, Shanghai doesnt appear to be anything brilliant yet year after year we're getting fantastic races. Turkey was obviously great, shame its not on the calender. Sepang is very underrated, i liked it from the very first race in 1999

I think the one that surprised me the most has to be India. I think this track has the potential to be great. Once you get past the ridiculously long straights you arrive at some spectacular corners that make up a great section of track. A section of track you wouldnt mind being added to Spa as it wouldnt kill any of its flow. From what i can remember from last year the cars were flying through the middle section. Definitely his best piece of work since Turkey.

I'll reserve judgment on COTA till i see it properly, even though im not as overly impressed as everyone else seems to be.


Post of the thread. :up:


#79 MatsNorway

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:47

Tilke was working on Rudskogen in norway.

Initially he wanted it to look like this
http://i24.photobuck...OGEN-future.jpg

But that meant removing this brilliant long corner before the straight. And one need to think about other events like drifting. So the corner was saved so we could continue to do this.
http://farm4.static....1efe6f787_o.jpg
http://cdn.speedhunt...Gatebil-009.jpg


The complete layout looks like this. And has a 42meter height difference.

http://i108.photobuc...Rudskogen01.jpg
http://www.racingnm....fly-604x530.jpg

http://upload.wikime...g-rudskogen.jpg

http://i108.photobuc...Rudskogen02.jpg


video from track
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


Article about the track
http://www.speedhunt...ome-of-gatebil/

Pictures of track.
http://gatebil.no/wp...11/nye_0014.jpg
http://gatebil.no/wp...11/nye_0015.jpg
http://gatebil.no/wp...11/nye_0016.jpg
http://cdn.speedhunt...Gatebil-023.jpg
http://blog.shutters...ds/IMG_3290.jpg
http://www.speedhunt...Gatebil-027.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 13 October 2012 - 08:10.


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#80 Mc_Silver

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:20

Istanbul park for sure

#81 my_own_shadow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:30

Jarama? That was a Tilkedrome before that term was even a thing.

'Mickey mouse' circuit - that's the term that was used for such circuits. And one of the first MM-circuit was the Autodromo de la Ciudad de Mexico "Magdalena Mixhuca" built in 1962, now the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez.

#82 AlexS

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:35

The problem of Tilkes is they are comprehensive almost to annoying level with so many curves, worse when puts mickey mouse almost kart like curves in some circuits.

A circuit needs to have quirks.

#83 nomi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:44

So who else designs F1 circuits much better than Tilke?

#84 Atreiu

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:44

Not to mention he still hasnt been able to incorporate decent pit entries and exits.

#85 my_own_shadow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:04

So who else designs F1 circuits much better than Tilke?


Well, apart from Nature itself, usually they were experienced drivers who were able to design descent circuits. For example, it was Sammy Davis, 1927 Le Mans 24H winner, who helped with an old Zandvoort circuit. Also many of Silverstone and Nurburgring modifications in the past century were performed by recommendations of drivers.

#86 nomi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:10

Well, apart from Nature itself, usually they were experienced drivers who were able to design descent circuits. For example, it was Sammy Davis, 1927 Le Mans 24H winner, who helped with an old Zandvoort circuit. Also many of Silverstone and Nurburgring modifications in the past century were performed by recommendations of drivers.


This doesn't help much,

We need a designated F1 circuit designer who can do it better than Tilke.

Who and where are they?


#87 Ali_G

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:14

Is there no one else in the world who can design race tracks?

When was the last time a non-Tilke track was added to the calendar?


Melbourne Park I suspect.

#88 Ali_G

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:17

A1 Ring, Malaysia, Turkey, in that order. The rest are tripe.

Tilke's unnecessary usage of slow corners makes for some appauling tracks and literally destroys racing.

#89 Jimisgod

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:17

Melbourne Park I suspect.


Better than all the Tilke ones IMHO, even Turkey suffers for areas of too much run-off.

A1 Ring is just a cut down version of a pre-existing track that was better before.

Edited by Jimisgod, 13 October 2012 - 09:18.


#90 Baddoer

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:18

The problem with Tilke tracks that they try to squeeze every type of corner in the layout, and usually that ruins flow of the track. Also thats why all Tilkedroms lack character and basic concept, except maybe Malaysia. Sepang is relatively simple and straightforward track, thats the reason racing is always good around here.

Edited by Baddoer, 13 October 2012 - 09:21.


#91 Ali_G

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:26

Better than all the Tilke ones IMHO, even Turkey suffers for areas of too much run-off.

A1 Ring is just a cut down version of a pre-existing track that was better before.


It is, but he did make a good job of it. He could easily have added some very slow corners all over the place, but thankfully he didn't.

I remember seeing the A1 Ring layout for the first time. Turns 1 and 2 being almost 90 degree corners with a square apex. Something very rare at the time. Who would have known that the layout would produce good overtaking opportunities into these corners.

I guess another aspect of the A1/Red Bull Ring I like is the setting. Beautiful Alpine landscape. Compare this to Korea which is about as depressing a sight in F1 as there is. Looks like a run down docks or something. Tilke in his more recent tracks has moved away from any landscaping at all. Most of his recent tracks are just concrete bowls with barriers right up against the tracks. They are simply horrible.

Just look at the A1 Ring. Also note the kink put in just before Turn 2. Helps overtaking as discussed in the recent thread on the BB.

Posted Image

Edited by Ali_G, 13 October 2012 - 09:29.


#92 nomi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:30

So who's the F1 circuit designer better than Tilka ???

Instead of whinging we should start a petition.

#93 Atreiu

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:34

How did Silverstone from 1990 to 1991? It was bumpy as hell, but they did a good job. Everything thay came later was unecessaringly complicated, IMO.

#94 my_own_shadow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:37

This doesn't help much,

We need a designated F1 circuit designer who can do it better than Tilke.

Who and where are they?


The answer would be quite obvious: the "designers" are usually not able to design a proper Grand Prix track!

This also could be interesting, in the light of John Hugenholtz, German Tilke, etc -designed tracks:

Nivelles-Baulers in Belgium. Built in 1971, the circuit hosted two rounds of the F1 Belgian GP in 1972 and 1974. Designed by John Hugenholtz as a safe alternative to Spa, Nivelles was perhaps too safe. It had massive runoff areas, was flat and featureless, and was described by many drivers as being bland and sterile. Nivelles was not popular amongst the paying spectators since they thought that they were not close enough to the action. The track ran into economic problems very early in its life. The organiser went bankrupt in 1974. They were however able to find enough sponsors to organise that year's Formula One race. In 1976 it was once again Nivelles' turn to organise the Belgian Grand Prix, but the track was not considered safe enough for Formula One because of the condition of the tarmac. By 1980 the circuit was deemed too dangerous for car racing, but Motorcycle sport continued until 1981. When the circuit licence expired on June 30, 1981, the track was finally closed for good. Until the late 1990s the pit buildings and the circuit were left abandoned, and it was possible to drive illegal laps around the track. However, in the early 21st century the track was demolished and is now a part of an industrial estate. But it is still possible to see traces of the circuit if you know where to look.



#95 Puhoon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:47

A1 Ring, Malaysia, Turkey, in that order. The rest are tripe.

Tilke's unnecessary usage of slow corners makes for some appauling tracks and literally destroys racing.


+1.

#96 muramasa

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:23


Shanghai: not his fault that track layout had to resemble chinese character "shang" of shanghai (stupid request I'd say)

Singapore: Not his fault that they wanted to race at streets of Singapore

Valencia: Not his fault that they wanted to build half-hearted race track there, incorporating marine bay and industrial section

Abu Dhabi: not his fault that race track had to be built there, incorporating Ferrari World and all that, in such proximity to international airport

Korea: Not his fault that holding F1 GP is one feature for the whole package of 1.marine resort, 2.city/town 3.international race track 4.tourism promotion for that region as a whole (that southern Korean region is lovely place indeed actually).


#97 Realyn

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:39

Singapore.

#98 john ruston

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:53

Could do what he liked in Abu Dhabi.

Yas-It was a big piece of reclaimed waste ground.

One of the corners with stands works for concerts.

Nothing to do with racing but its on redeeming feature.

#99 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:08

It is, but he did make a good job of it. He could easily have added some very slow corners all over the place, but thankfully he didn't.

I remember seeing the A1 Ring layout for the first time. Turns 1 and 2 being almost 90 degree corners with a square apex. Something very rare at the time. Who would have known that the layout would produce good overtaking opportunities into these corners.

I guess another aspect of the A1/Red Bull Ring I like is the setting. Beautiful Alpine landscape. Compare this to Korea which is about as depressing a sight in F1 as there is. Looks like a run down docks or something. Tilke in his more recent tracks has moved away from any landscaping at all. Most of his recent tracks are just concrete bowls with barriers right up against the tracks. They are simply horrible.

Just look at the A1 Ring. Also note the kink put in just before Turn 2. Helps overtaking as discussed in the recent thread on the BB.

Posted Image


A very important aspect of the A1-Ring is that the basic layout of the track is the same as the Osterreichring it was built on top of, i.e. That square horseshoe shape using most of the same parts as before. What Tilke did right was not changing things too much. The link from T1-T2 was as straight as possible given the landscape, and the dangerous fast corners were tightened as simply is possible too.


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#100 zztopless1

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 13:42

'Mickey mouse' circuit - that's the term that was used for such circuits. And one of the first MM-circuit was the Autodromo de la Ciudad de Mexico "Magdalena Mixhuca" built in 1962, now the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez.


Hardly a Mickey Mouse circuit. Peraltdata is epic and the all the corners from T6 to T13 would be medium to high speed in today's cars and amazing to watch. What section of this track do you consider 'Mickey Mouse'?

Posted Image

There was talk it returning there recently and I hope they do.

Edited by zztopless1, 13 October 2012 - 16:01.