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Jenson Button and Mclaren 2013 onwards


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#1 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:19

Well we have the 'can Lewis lead Mercedes' thread.

So thought id throw this out there for discussion.

IS JB fast enough to lead Mclaren short of them having a Brawn year? Will it be a mistake to have JB as the lead driver or as some posters have stated - it will be beneficiary as the team will operate more harmoniously.

Personally I don't think JB can take it to an on song Red Bull in the hands of Vettel or the Ferrari in the hands of Fred.

This year's car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if JBs results were the only ones looked at.

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#2 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:32

It's a setback for McLaren, the other side of the coin from why they offered Lewis more money than any other driver's getting according to MW.

I think their 'good' race result is going to slip from 1, 3 to 3, 5.



#3 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:37

It's a setback for McLaren, the other side of the coin from why they offered Lewis more money than any other driver's getting according to MW.

I think their 'good' race result is going to slip from 1, 3 to 3, 5.


I think it will be a bit of setback too especially now qualifying at the front is important as ever.

#4 undersquare

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:49

Yeah. I also look at the environment RBR and Ferrari put around their top driver, and see that's what McLaren took away from Hamilton after 2009 to protect Button.

Now Merc have offered that environment to Lewis so he's gone, and meanwhile Jenson is immediately asking for that exact same thing...


#5 Boxerevo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:50

There is no setback.

Mclaren just need a fast car and stop the stupids mistakes.

If the car is good,Jeson will deliver,he is a wdc.

Edited by Boxerevo, 10 October 2012 - 17:50.


#6 P123

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:52

Like the Hamilton/ Merc topic, let's wait and see. It hinges a lot on the car. JB will surely be too much for Perez, and he's shown enough times that he can run at the front for McLaren to still be a success with him as the lead driver.

Edited by P123, 10 October 2012 - 17:52.


#7 Metronazol

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:52

If they produce a car that is consistently the fastest on all types of circuits over the year, barring pit mistakes/crippling bad luck, JB will deliver. He has already shown that he can do so, there is little reason to suggest that he couldnt do the same again.

#8 TheManAlive

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:57

In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton. With an average car, Hamilton is still able to deliver but Button struggles a bit more. Lewis is like Mansell in that he is able to 'grab the car by the scruff of the neck' (to quote M. Walker) and get a time out of it.

So if Mclaren have a top level car next year I fully expect to see Jenson challenging for the Championship.



#9 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 17:58

There is no setback.

Mclaren just need a fast car and stop the stupids mistakes.

If the car is good,Jeson will deliver,he is a wdc.


Can Mclaren deliver a car that good though? This years car, in the hands of Lewis is probably the car of the year. Its definitely Maccas best car since the rules changed in 09.



#10 MirNyet

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:01

If they produce a car that is consistently the fastest on all types of circuits over the year, barring pit mistakes/crippling bad luck, JB will deliver. He has already shown that he can do so, there is little reason to suggest that he couldnt do the same again.


Looking at 2009, I would have to disagree - he will only be ahead/on top etc if he has a clear car advantage. On a level playing field he's no where. His supposed 'tire management' skills have been invisible in the current tire era and his ability to overtake a car which is even close in speed is non-existant. This depresses me no end, but unless Perez is a rocket, then McLaren are looking at a bleak couple of years until they can get someone good into the car as even when they ship a good car, they seem to lack the ability to keep an advantage large enough for Button to perform consistantly.



#11 sopa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:14

Button can certainly challenge for the title. Another question is if he can win it, this will be difficult, but he can be a contender.

In 2010 Button was a title contender until the last couple of races in the season. And this was in a car, which was not the fastest that season, sometimes even third fastest behind Ferrari!
In 2011 Button would have been in the running for the title, had Red Bull not been superior.

#12 King Six

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:17

Button has had title winning cars in 2010 and 2012 but he's fluffed it up, but so have McLaren and Lewis Hamilton too (although Lewis, to a slightly lesser extent). History is not on his side to pull off another Brawn performance. I don't think he has it in him, unless he has a ridiculously faster car than everyone else (aka 2009)

#13 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:17

Last year Jenson beat everybody except Vettel.

This year without setup problems you would probably expect one more win, a couple of podiums and a 6th say, which would put him on 197 points and leading the championship.

With that in mind I see no reason why he shouldn't provide an effective challenge next year.

#14 Atreiu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:17

Button seems a very capable leader, but he doesnt seem capable of out of the blue fast q laps and above expectations results. There were races in 2010 in which he seemed lost and Hamilton was way up the order against Red Bulls and Alonso. Then it went the other way aroud in 2011, but that was because Hamilton was totally lost. And now the so many average weekends in 2012 and lost balance...

I havent been uneasy about a Mac line up in quite a while.

#15 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:21

Button has had title winning cars in 2010 and 2012 but he's fluffed it up, but so have McLaren and Lewis Hamilton too (although Lewis, to a slightly lesser extent). History is not on his side to pull off another Brawn performance. I don't think he has it in him, unless he has a ridiculously faster car than everyone else (aka 2009)


This is a common delusion. Over the course of that season the Brawn was only equal fastest at best, RB5 matched it taking the year as a whole.

#16 King Six

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:26

This is a common delusion. Over the course of that season the Brawn was only equal fastest at best, RB5 matched it taking the year as a whole.

Oh I'm sorry, Button was just way better than everyone then. Just for that year. All the other years where he's usually been comprehensively beaten, they don't count. But 2009 he became better than Ayrton Senna and was the fastest racing driver who has ever lived. And then he became shit again in 2010. And none of it had to do with the car. So he can magically maybe transform into Ayrton Button once again in 2013 just like 2009. :rolleyes:

#17 TFLB

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:29

I think Button will be out after 2013 after being shown up by Perez.

#18 Peter Perfect

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:31

Aren't the points just about level between the two current drivers since 2010? In which case there's a good argument for saying that Button will deliver at the same level as Hamilton has and could. Of course, Perez isn't the same driver as Hamilton, they're at totally different points in their careers - Hamilton is 27 and has 105 race starts while Perez is only 22 and has 32 starts - McLaren will adjust their expectations for next year accordingly. I hope/expect Perez to show he's got the speed fairly quickly once he's on top of the car but his racecraft will take a year or two to come through I think.

TBH I would've been happy with either Sauber driver. They've both shown flashes of brilliance and IMHO are probably the top two drivers banging of the door of the big teams.

#19 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:32

Last year Jenson beat everybody except Vettel.

This year without setup problems you would probably expect one more win, a couple of podiums and a 6th say, which would put him on 197 points and leading the championship.

With that in mind I see no reason why he shouldn't provide an effective challenge next year.



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#20 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:36

Aren't the points just about level between the two current drivers since 2010? In which case there's a good argument for saying that Button will deliver at the same level as Hamilton has and could. Of course, Perez isn't the same driver as Hamilton, they're at totally different points in their careers - Hamilton is 27 and has 105 race starts while Perez is only 22 and has 32 starts - McLaren will adjust their expectations for next year accordingly. I hope/expect Perez to show he's got the speed fairly quickly once he's on top of the car but his racecraft will take a year or two to come through I think.

TBH I would've been happy with either Sauber driver. They've both shown flashes of brilliance and IMHO are probably the top two drivers banging of the door of the big teams.


The points don't paint the whole picture though. They are as they are mainly due to Hamilton's issues last year. In the years where Mclaren have challenged for the championship Hamilton has led the charge not Jenson.

Button can race well.....but he cant qualify and as I said at the start of the year nowadays as always - its very important.

#21 sopa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:37

I disagree with those, who say that Button needs a dominant car. 2010 and 2011 prove that he just needs a top car. But the point is that he needs a consistent car with good balance all through the season.

Just out of interest I calculated some points. Remember those five race from Spain to UK, where Button was horrible. If we count points only from the rest of the races, then the score is:
Vettel - 143
Button - 124
Hamilton - 109
Alonso & Raikkonen - 108
Webber - 66

So as long as McLaren manages to avoid a situation, where the car performance drops significantly/Button feels truly uncomfortable in the car, he is a contender. Remember, after all he started 2012 as a very highly rated driver, as one of the main title contenders and people were wondering, who will come out on top in the McLaren team-mate battle. But this five-race "balance issue" ruined everything for him.

#22 olliek88

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:38

This is a common delusion. Over the course of that season the Brawn was only equal fastest at best, RB5 matched it taking the year as a whole.


:up: After the fly away race Brawn's advantage was completely gone, it was RBR's strategy cock up's/reliability that cost them both world titles, constantly over filling in qualy leaving them vulnerable to KERs cars at the race start and then getting stick behind them was a common one i remember.

I remember Brundle saying in comms recently that Brawn only won in '09 becasue of a "1 second advantage over everyone else" :rolleyes: common misconception.

Don't miss understand me Brawn had a strong car in the first half of '09 but it wasn't close to the RB7 or even the RB6 in terms of raw speed over the whole season. Give Jenson a good, balanced car and he will challenge for the WDC.

#23 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:40

I disagree with those, who say that Button needs a dominant car. 2010 and 2011 prove that he just needs a top car. But the point is that he needs a consistent car with good balance all through the season.

Just out of interest I calculated some points. Remember those five race from Spain to UK, where Button was horrible. If we count points only from the rest of the races, then the score is:
Vettel - 143
Button - 124
Hamilton - 109
Alonso & Raikkonen - 108
Webber - 66

So as long as McLaren manages to avoid a situation, where the car performance drops significantly/Button feels truly uncomfortable in the car, he is a contender. Remember, after all he started 2012 as a very highly rated driver, as one of the main title contenders and people were wondering, who will come out on top in the McLaren team-mate battle. But this five-race "balance issue" ruined everything for him.


lol - lets just count the ones where he won

#24 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:42

:up: After the fly away race Brawn's advantage was completely gone, it was RBR's strategy cock up's/reliability that cost them both world titles, constantly over filling in qualy leaving them vulnerable to KERs cars at the race start and then getting stick behind them was a common one i remember.

I remember Brundle saying in comms recently that Brawn only won in '09 becasue of a "1 second advantage over everyone else" :rolleyes: common misconception.

Don't miss understand me Brawn had a strong car in the first half of '09 but it wasn't close to the RB7 or even the RB6 in terms of raw speed over the whole season. Give Jenson a good, balanced car and he will challenge for the WDC.


yet it was the fly away races where he won that enabled him to build up the lead he did.

#25 garoidb

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:44

I think Button will be out after 2013 after being shown up by Perez.


To Ferrari or Red Bull?

#26 sopa

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:45

lol - lets just count the ones where he won


Those five races were a unique period in Button's career. In 2010 and 2011 he never had such a long period of awfulness, at worst it was a single race, where he was nowhere (2010 Korea, 2011 Germany). So you can clearly view these 5 races as an anomaly, which can be avoided throughout the season if McLaren produces a good and stable car.

#27 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:46

yet it was the fly away races where he won that enabled him to build up the lead he did.

All two and the half of them? Them were truly magnificent then, because he built a lead that lasted the whole season.

#28 TFLB

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:46

To Ferrari or Red Bull?

No, to retirement.

#29 olliek88

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:47

I think Button will be out after 2013 after being shown up by Perez.


Quoted for future referral.  ;)

#30 TallyHo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:48

All two and the half of them? Them were truly magnificent then, because he built a lead that lasted the whole season.

:lol:

#31 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:49

All two and the half of them? Them were truly magnificent then, because he built a lead that lasted the whole season.


3 and a half .. do keep up.

Spain was a given too as was Monaco.... the only real one that vettel could have won was Turkey.

So yeah 45 points out of 45 was a pretty damn good start to the season.

#32 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:50

Those five races were a unique period in Button's career. In 2010 and 2011 he never had such a long period of awfulness, at worst it was a single race, where he was nowhere (2010 Korea, 2011 Germany). So you can clearly view these 5 races as an anomaly, which can be avoided throughout the season if McLaren produces a good and stable car.

The self induced slump really only lasted for three races, Barcelona, Monaco and Canada. Valencia and Silverstone had other reasons.

#33 olliek88

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:03

3 and a half .. do keep up.

Spain was a given too as was Monaco.... the only real one that vettel could have won was Turkey.

So yeah 45 points out of 45 was a pretty damn good start to the season.


RBR had a quicker car in Spain, Seb was 1 tenth behind JB but had an extra 5.5KGs of fuel (2 laps) onboard but got stuck behind Massa after over filling and costing themselves pole, Seb qualified ahead of JB in Bahrain despite carrying an extra 6.5KGs onboard! In China Vettel was on pole and won the race and Seb should of won Turkey but made a mistake on the first lap.

Thats 4 of the first 7 races RBR had the pace to win with, they only won one. Again, the Brawn was a very good car but it wasn't as dominant as some try to make out.

Edited by olliek88, 10 October 2012 - 19:04.


#34 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:03

3 and a half .. do keep up.

Spain was a given too as was Monaco.... the only real one that vettel could have won was Turkey.

So yeah 45 points out of 45 was a pretty damn good start to the season.

Wanna look at the dictionary the meaning of the pair of words "fly away" and try to put it in the context of that season. No, Barcelona is not a fly away race. At Chaina in the wet already Red Bull was the fastest. At Malaysia he got half points, that was the last time the car was really clearly fastest. So, he got 2 and a half wins and a third from his fly away races.

Of course the whole point of your thread is to manage a picturesque view of how shit you really consider Button to be, so far you have been doing an admirable job in doing just that, so I'm sure you'll find a way to somehow show that the car advantage continued for the whole year and he in fact should have done allot more.

#35 Lazy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:05

3 and a half .. do keep up.

Spain was a given too as was Monaco.... the only real one that vettel could have won was Turkey.

So yeah 45 points out of 45 was a pretty damn good start to the season.


Newey disagrees:

In the BBC TV's red-button forum after the race, Red Bull technical director Adrian Newey said his cars were a match for the Brawns and the team reckon they had enough pace to win the race.

Brundle report

#36 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:07

Wanna look at the dictionary the meaning of the pair of words "fly away" and try to put it in the context of that season. No, Barcelona is not a fly away race. At Chaina in the wet already Red Bull was the fastest. At Malaysia he got half points, that was the last time the car was really clearly fastest. So, he got 2 and a half wins and a third from his fly away races.

Of course the whole point of your thread is to manage a picturesque view of how shit you really consider Button to be, so far you have been doing an admirable job in doing just that, so I'm sure you'll find a way to somehow show that the car advantage continued for the whole year and he in fact should have done allot more.


You dont count Bahrain - maybe you need to look inthe dictionary


#37 TallyHo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:10

You dont count Bahrain - maybe you need to look inthe dictionary

That would still be 2 and a Half races though wouldn't it, because he scored half points in Malaysia and Vettel won in China......Derp.

#38 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:10

You dont count Bahrain - maybe you need to look inthe dictionary

Say that again
Australia - win - 1
Malaysia - win, half a race - 0.5
China - third - 0
Bahrein - win - 1

How's yer math skills?

#39 olliek88

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:18

You dont count Bahrain - maybe you need to look inthe dictionary


RBR had a quicker car in Bahrain, Seb was ahead of the Brawn despite more fuel in qualy. Seb couldn't get past Hamilton in the race, unlike Button, and lost chunks of time behind him but was the quicker car after the final stops.

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#40 Rybo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:18

It depends on the car and how stable it is from track to track relative to the other cars. There can only be so many front runners, and if it comes down to JB vs FA/SV I'm going with the multiple champions. No question Button can lead a team, but can he lead a team to championships amongst other champions. I'm not so sure.

#41 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:36

Say that again
Australia - win - 1
Malaysia - win, half a race - 0.5
China - third - 0
Bahrein - win - 1

How's yer math skills?



Ha - maybe i do need a refresher!

Still 3 wins and a podium in the flyaways did give him a healthy lead. you cant dispute that.

#42 TallyHo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:52

Ha - maybe i do need a refresher!

Still 3 wins and a podium in the flyaways did give him a healthy lead. you cant dispute that.

Yes, a massive 12 points, with 130 left up for grabs!

#43 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:54

JB has already lead teams very well (BAR/Honda/Brawn) and shown with the right car he can win races and the WDC.

#44 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:56

Yes, a massive 12 points, with 130 left up for grabs!


well he won by 11 pts so it counted for something didnt it

#45 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:03

Ha - maybe i do need a refresher!

Still 3 wins and a podium in the flyaways did give him a healthy lead. you cant dispute that.

That is the part where rhetorics always tend to take precedence of true facts. It wasn't THREE WINS. It was exactly what I said, two and a half. The winner got 5 points and 2nd got 4. One of the 2 races where JB actually did have car advantage was washed away right there. But of course if you happen to belong into the "Button is shit" camp, it is convenient to consider, remember and brand it as a bona fide honest to god win, especially these days, when a win gives you instant 7 point advantage over the second guy.

#46 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:06

well he won by 11 pts so it counted for something didnt it

So you are basically mad at Button, that he held a clear car advantage for about 2 races, was equal best for about 4 or 5 more and won a championship?

#47 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:08

That is the part where rhetorics always tend to take precedence of true facts. It wasn't THREE WINS. It was exactly what I said, two and a half. The winner got 5 points and 2nd got 4. One of the 2 races where JB actually did have car advantage was washed away right there. But of course if you happen to belong into the "Button is shit" camp, it is convenient to consider, remember and brand it as a bona fide honest to god win, especially these days, when a win gives you instant 7 point advantage over the second guy.


But he still won right.

still got more points than everyone else.

I dont think Button is shit-he is a wdc after all - I just dont think he will be able to take it to Seb or Fred if they have championship contending cars. 2009 was an anomaly.

#48 gricey1981

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:10

So you are basically mad at Button, that he held a clear car advantage for about 2 races, was equal best for about 4 or 5 more and won a championship?

They were 1 -2 at Monaco...

it was the best car that year hence winning the wcc.

Im not mad at him ......... very interesting choice of words.... you have something you want to share :kiss:

#49 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:15

But he still won right.

still got more points than everyone else.

I dont think Button is shit-he is a wdc after all - I just dont think he will be able to take it to Seb or Fred if they have championship contending cars. 2009 was an anomaly.

Seb had a championship contending car at 2009. He lost.

#50 eronrules

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:17

ok people, half win or 1 win, it's all in the past, let's think about 2013 shall we. it strikes me as till now, mclaren had a benchmark in hamilton in that his quali pace was preety much what the car could do, he doesn't have the constant setup and sweet spot issue like JB

now JB has gone of and said on record that he's building macca around him. good and fair. but now that LH is gone, i think JB won't have that measuring stick when it comes to qualy in 2013. sergio is good but he's no LH. i've seen many occasion this season his onboard footage, he's no smooth driver around steering wheel, he chops and slides more than Kamui, it's only cause sauber is good with it's rear wear that we hear so much of sergio's legendary tire stints.

so now the question is, will this '' i have cronic understeer guys'' and '' i just didn't have the pace'' will be a constant companion next year or can JB trully show he's not a very good 'avarage' driver, but on par with kimi/alonso/lewis/vettel when it comes to aggression balanced with consistancy. also, can he drag a car to achieve the impossible when it's not the class leader???

honestly ... i don't think so. there is a reason why Helmut Marko said what he said in this interview (aside from being a jerk ... :drunk: ) and i think not only him, but ferrari and perhaps Lotus also feels that way

link

“Niki has done us a favour,” said the outspoken Austrian. “He has weakened Lewis and McLaren.

“Next year, we have two opponents less,” he added.