Jump to content


Photo

Jenson Button and Mclaren 2013 onwards


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
329 replies to this topic

#51 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,854 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:19

silly thread, JB has already lead teams very well (BAR/Honda/Brawn) and shown with the right car he can win races and the WDC.

True. He's done it before and there's no reason why he cant do it again.

Advertisement

#52 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,854 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:27

ok people, half win or 1 win, it's all in the past, let's think about 2013 shall we. it strikes me as till now, mclaren had a benchmark in hamilton in that his quali pace was preety much what the car could do, he doesn't have the constant setup and sweet spot issue like JB

now JB has gone of and said on record that he's building macca around him. good and fair. but now that LH is gone, i think JB won't have that measuring stick when it comes to qualy in 2013. sergio is good but he's no LH. i've seen many occasion this season his onboard footage, he's no smooth driver around steering wheel, he chops and slides more than Kamui, it's only cause sauber is good with it's rear wear that we hear so much of sergio's legendary tire stints.

so now the question is, will this '' i have cronic understeer guys'' and '' i just didn't have the pace'' will be a constant companion next year or can JB trully show he's not a very good 'avarage' driver, but on par with kimi/alonso/lewis/vettel when it comes to aggression balanced with consistancy. also, can he drag a car to achieve the impossible when it's not the class leader???

honestly ... i don't think so. there is a reason why Helmut Marko said what he said in this interview (aside from being a jerk ... :drunk: ) and i think not only him, but ferrari and perhaps Lotus also feels that way

link

Well, even if you're of the 'Button must have an absolutely perfect car to get anywhere near the pace' POV surely his chances will be improved next year with the declarations from Pirelli that the tyres will have a larger working range?

#53 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:27

so now the question is, will this '' i have cronic understeer guys'' and '' i just didn't have the pace'' will be a constant companion next year or can JB trully show he's not a very good 'avarage' driver, but on par with kimi/alonso/lewis/vettel when it comes to aggression balanced with consistancy.

Just a question - did you happen to watch last year?

#54 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:30

Oh I'm sorry, Button was just way better than everyone then. Just for that year. All the other years where he's usually been comprehensively beaten, they don't count. But 2009 he became better than Ayrton Senna and was the fastest racing driver who has ever lived. And then he became shit again in 2010. And none of it had to do with the car. So he can magically maybe transform into Ayrton Button once again in 2013 just like 2009. :rolleyes:


JB won 6 of the first 7 races. In the remaining 10 races he beat his team mate 4 times and retired (due to Groejean) once.

In those 10 races the Brawn car only won twice and was on the podium three times in total. That is not dominant in my book.

In those 10 races the RB5 won 5 races and was on the podium nine times in total. More than double the race wins and three times the podiums including four retirements.


:up: After the fly away race Brawn's advantage was completely gone, it was RBR's strategy cock up's/reliability that cost them both world titles, constantly over filling in qualy leaving them vulnerable to KERs cars at the race start and then getting stick behind them was a common one i remember.

I remember Brundle saying in comms recently that Brawn only won in '09 becasue of a "1 second advantage over everyone else" :rolleyes: common misconception.

Don't miss understand me Brawn had a strong car in the first half of '09 but it wasn't close to the RB7 or even the RB6 in terms of raw speed over the whole season. Give Jenson a good, balanced car and he will challenge for the WDC.


Spot on.



#55 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,171 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:31

Depends on the car. If it's fast and to Jensons liking he will deliver. If it's not that fast and/or if it's difficult to handle/set up etc then he has very little chance against Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton if they have good cars. 2013 should be fine because the car is likely to be very similar to this year and he's gotten the hang of that (with help from Hamilton's data). 2014 will be much more difficult without a car advantage.

#56 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:34

Just a question - did you happen to watch last year?



yes, i did, and if u'r referring to 2011 candadian gp, i watched that too. last year, lewis was distracted, same as this year (no excuse/just facts)

but the question is, can JB do that constantly now that LH is gone??? or maybe it was due to the fact that LH drives aggresively and JB has benefitted from his setups??? (british media has made a lot of comments on LH adaptin more of JB trend and looking after tires well and bla bla bla, not not vice-versa)

P.S. i'm not one of JB's 'i have cronic understeer' fanclub member, but he complains more about set-up than any other race driver in last 5 years. instead of picking on points, please discuss :cat:

#57 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:37

2013 should be fine because the car is likely to be very similar to this year and he's gotten the hang of that (with help from Hamilton's data).

In fact the biggest thing next year seems to be a hopefully wider temperature window of the tyres.

#58 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,789 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:41

I think Button will be out after 2013 after being shown up by Perez.


I can't agree. Perez will be in the no-lose situation that Button was in when he came into McLaren against Hamilton but Button does appear to get on better with the team. Should he prove to be slower than Perez, I think McLaren will keep him on for a few years yet until the next big thing becomes available. Similar to Coulthard when it was clear Kimi was the quicker driver and then Montoya came onto the market.

Edited by Disgrace, 10 October 2012 - 20:43.


#59 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:41

yes, i did, and if u'r referring to 2011 candadian gp, i watched that too. last year, lewis was distracted, same as this year (no excuse/just facts)

What the f*** does it have to do with Lewis? Did you happen to see Monza, Spa, India, just to name a few? Because Lewis had less than stellar year, Button's good drives in those races suddenly didn't count?

Advertisement

#60 TFLB

TFLB
  • Member

  • 1,616 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:44

I can't agree. Perez will be in the no-lose situation that Button was in when he came into McLaren against Hamilton but Button does appear to get on better with the team. Should he prove to be slower than Perez, I think McLaren will keep him on for a few years yet until the next big thing becomes available. A little like Coulthard when it was clear Kimi was the quicker driver; however, Button is probably better than DC was.

Just my opinion, obviously there is nothing to prove it yet. But I have never believed that Button is anything more than an above-average driver, and I think Perez will show that. Not that I rate Perez as high as some do. We'll see. It will be interesting whatever happens.

#61 stevesingo

stevesingo
  • Member

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:46

I believe in 2013 JB will bring home the goods.

The car will be heavily influenced by JB and he will get his own way in discussions of development direction and strategy over Sergio.

The tyres have a wider window.

There is no big change to the rules.

If JB has good FP's and therefore quali and the car is capable of the front two rows within a reasonable gap to the front, he will consistently deliver in the way FA has delivered this year.

2009 proved he doesn't choke and he can remain focussed.



#62 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,789 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:50

Just my opinion, obviously there is nothing to prove it yet. But I have never believed that Button is anything more than an above-average driver, and I think Perez will show that. Not that I rate Perez as high as some do. We'll see. It will be interesting whatever happens.


That's all fine, but Button does have a multiyear contract in his back pocket. Unless Perez wins the WDC and through season-long Button underperformance, McLaren fail to deliver the WCC like Kovalainen in '08, I doubt the team will be in a rush to fire their marketable and compatible WDC.

#63 eronrules

eronrules
  • Member

  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:53

What the f*** does it have to do with Lewis? Did you happen to see Monza, Spa, India, just to name a few? Because Lewis had less than stellar year, Button's good drives in those races suddenly didn't count?


it has to do a lot really. you have to understand how mclaren operates. most team has two distinct drivers setup prefference when it comes to setting the car up, yes they do share data, but not like mclaren. it's no wonder that LH drives the nuts of a car. the data lewis provides helps JB and vice-versa. but if we take a look at 2009, JB's second half was poor compared to Rubens. Rubens got the best of JB on almost every aspect. now take for example 2008 season, Lewis was the alpha dog and the team had no problem setting the car for his preference and win the WDC. same with 09/10 season.

but i like many other am not convinced that JB can really push the car to that extra bit like LH. that's what i wanted to express. JB did extremely well last year, beating LH without a shadow of a doubt.


(or maybe i'll have to eat my shoes if JB performs really good next year :smoking: , but then again LH did help develop some part of next years car, so we'll have our excuse :cool: )

#64 Curt000

Curt000
  • Member

  • 207 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:54

Jenson is a creep. He gets right under skin. Lucky driver who picks up the pieces .

#65 TFLB

TFLB
  • Member

  • 1,616 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:57

That's all fine, but Button does have a multiyear contract in his back pocket. Unless Perez wins the WDC and through season-long Button underperformance, McLaren fail to deliver the WCC like Kovalainen in '08, I doubt the team will be in a rush to fire their marketable and compatible WDC.

Maybe you're right, I'd forgotten he had a long contract. But I think Button has shown just how bad he can be on occaisions this year - namely when he doesn't have a great car. We saw it with Honda in 2007 and 8 and with Benetton in 2001 - when he doesn't like his car, he's awful. If Mclaren don't make a car he likes next year he'll be in trouble, and I think Perez would be able to get more out of it in that situation.

#66 trogggy

trogggy
  • Member

  • 7,245 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:57

He's finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the wdc. Nobody is going to argue that he had the best car in 2 of those years.
He's matched the 'fastest driver in F1' on points over 3 seasons (yada yada lucky yada yada).
He's beaten the only other wdc he raced against.
If Mclaren have the best car next year he's good enough.
If they're there or thereabouts he'll be there or thereabouts.
The only certainty is that if Mclaren make a great car and he wins next year there'll be umpteen threads about what someone else could have done in it.

#67 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,487 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:58

The thread is about JB and McLaren in 2013, not his previous years. Please keep to the topic.
EDIT: Remarking on JBs past, whilst being focussed on 2013 is fine. Apologies if this was not clear.

#68 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,171 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:03

In fact the biggest thing next year seems to be a hopefully wider temperature window of the tyres.


They could well be a big factor. You never know how these tyres are gonna turn out. Last year the teams asked for tyres that degrade more, then when they arrived a lot of them struggled and complained. Tyres that degrade were supposed to beneficial to JB's smooth, easy on the tyres style but the opposite happened. The new tyres could be helpful for JB and prevent him having the troubles he's had this year or they they could cause him to have to adapt his driving again. Also a larger operating windows could he beneficial to Mercedes (tyres have been one of their main problems this year, I think), providing 1 or 2 extra cars for JB to compete with. After the start they had this year I also wouldn't rule out Lotus building a good car and Kimi being a threat with his consistent point scoring. The more competitive cars there are next year the better it is for the sport but the more difficult it is for anyone to win the title.

#69 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,854 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:06

Maybe you're right, I'd forgotten he had a long contract. But I think Button has shown just how bad he can be on occaisions this year - namely when he doesn't have a great car. We saw it with Honda in 2007 and 8 and with Benetton in 2001 - when he doesn't like his car, he's awful. If Mclaren don't make a car he likes next year he'll be in trouble, and I think Perez would be able to get more out of it in that situation.

I think the key thing is Button struggles disproportionality when he's got a car that behaves unpredictably to set-up changes, and although he can modify his driving style (like this year) there are limits and so he can't throw the car around like Hamilton, for example, can.. A car can be bad (i.e. slow) but still behave perfectly well when pushed (see McLaren at Silverstone where neither driver had any complaints about the handling of the car and they produced the same performance)

#70 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:22

It will be fine without a mid season Caterham battle.

#71 bauss

bauss
  • Member

  • 4,976 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:34

I dont rate him winning more than a few races next year...

the regs are most likely too tight for McLaren to build the rocket and dominant car that will enable him to win the WDC.

In a straight fight with Alonso and Vettel, my money is on these two.... one is uber consistent, the other has very good qualy pace. JB's strong race pace is not good enough when we are talking about the elite. And If the Merc car is 2 -3 tenths within the Mac, LH will probably outqualify JB more than often providing another nuisance. With no Rubens or LH, there is no way JB won't have off weekends where he doesn't have balance

Personally when I think of it deeply, Mclaren are not in a much greater position than Merc for next year in terms of winning champs.... their greater possibility of building the better car is offset by not having the exceptional driver needed to challenge. It'll probably be RB vs Fer.

Marko is actually right in this case.

Edited by bauss, 10 October 2012 - 21:35.


#72 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:39

They could well be a big factor. You never know how these tyres are gonna turn out. Last year the teams asked for tyres that degrade more, then when they arrived a lot of them struggled and complained. Tyres that degrade were supposed to beneficial to JB's smooth, easy on the tyres style but the opposite happened.

JB's problem this year hasn't been degradation except Canada. It was that he was unable to get them into the temperature range, as it was horribly peaky and that is BECAUSE he is smooth. He has generally being really good on his tyres the whole year but mostly it has been nullified by the team undercutting him into traffic. (Hungary and Japan being the prime examples, in Japan he was at the middle of his second stint "target minus two" and then a few laps later "target plus one" so in the matter of a few laps he was extracting three more laps out of them.

The new tyres could be helpful for JB and prevent him having the troubles he's had this year or they they could cause him to have to adapt his driving again. Also a larger operating windows could he beneficial to Mercedes (tyres have been one of their main problems this year, I think), providing 1 or 2 extra cars for JB to compete with.

Well, we have no real way of knowing what next year will bring but applying a little bit of logic dictates that this specific problem is likely to diminish somewhat. Regarding Mercedes, their main problem this year has been that they can't develop the car over the season and that has been their biggest disadvantage. The last time Merc was any good at developing a car over season was 2006 when it was still a Honda and a certain Jenson Button was doing the point collecting. After that their success has not been all that remarkable in that.


#73 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,218 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:46

I dont rate him winning more than a few races next year...

the regs are most likely too tight for McLaren to build the rocket and dominant car that will enable him to win the WDC.

In a straight fight with Alonso and Vettel, my money is on these two.... one is uber consistent, the other has very good qualy pace. JB's strong race pace is not good enough when we are talking about the elite. And If the Merc car is 2 -3 tenths within the Mac, LH will probably outqualify JB more than often providing another nuisance. With no Rubens or LH, there is no way JB won't have off weekends where he doesn't have balance

Personally when I think of it deeply, Mclaren are not in a much greater position than Merc for next year in terms of winning champs.... their greater possibility of building the better car is offset by not having the exceptional driver needed to challenge. It'll probably be RB vs Fer.

Marko is actually right in this case.


lol


#74 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:21

To win a championship, Button needs to perform every race - even on his championship year this plainly didn't happen and he won the title due to the misfortunes of others. Add to this that when Button has a problem he falls completely out of the points - something the top drivers tend not to do. Then there is the oddness of the McLaren pit wall and you have the makings of a horrible year for both Button and the team in general. Also as Perez is so young with so few races under his belt and seemingly quite accident prone McLaren could easily find themselves down in 4th or 5th place in the WCC if Mercedes and Lotus get their act together as Red Bull and Ferrari are going to have them for breakfast.

The changes to the tires will only help teams like Mercedes who while having a good car lost their way on the tires.

#75 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,438 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:34

It seems to me that the main question is whether McLaren can sort out their strategy and reliability next year. If they don't win anything, it won't be down to the drivers.

I think it's quite unlikely that they will produce a car which Jenson cannot work with, they will surely be developing the current car.

If they produce updates which make the car undriveable for Jenson, those updates will stay on the shelf until Jenson has worked out how to use them. I'm pretty sure that Jenson himself will have learned something from his problems this year, and won't allow setup issues to mess up his season so much.

Jenson doesn't need the fastest car, he needs a reliable car which is always near to being fastest. He doesn't need to win many races, he needs regular podiums like in late 2011.

But most of all Jenson doesn't need the team to be constantly messing up on strategy and putting him back in the pack. I'm hoping that McLaren will be taking a long hard look at their trackside operations, if they do that then they will benefit from the shock of losing Lewis. If McLaren have a weakness, it's surely a little bit of complacency.

If everything is in place, Jenson will be a contender, the only worry would be another 2011 for Vettel and Red Bull, but if that happens none of the other teams will have any answers.



#76 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:54

It seems to me that the main question is whether McLaren can sort out their strategy and reliability next year. If they don't win anything, it won't be down to the drivers.

I think it's quite unlikely that they will produce a car which Jenson cannot work with, they will surely be developing the current car.

If they produce updates which make the car undriveable for Jenson, those updates will stay on the shelf until Jenson has worked out how to use them. I'm pretty sure that Jenson himself will have learned something from his problems this year, and won't allow setup issues to mess up his season so much.

Jenson doesn't need the fastest car, he needs a reliable car which is always near to being fastest. He doesn't need to win many races, he needs regular podiums like in late 2011.

But most of all Jenson doesn't need the team to be constantly messing up on strategy and putting him back in the pack. I'm hoping that McLaren will be taking a long hard look at their trackside operations, if they do that then they will benefit from the shock of losing Lewis. If McLaren have a weakness, it's surely a little bit of complacency.

If everything is in place, Jenson will be a contender, the only worry would be another 2011 for Vettel and Red Bull, but if that happens none of the other teams will have any answers.


Some interesting points, I do not however agree that pieces will stay off the car if Button doesn't like them. McLaren are data driven and if the data says the car is faster, and if Perez turns out to be someone who can get performance out of the car even when it is not perfectly balanced then Button could find himself falling into another set up hole as McLaren develops the car.


#77 Ian G

Ian G
  • Member

  • 1,054 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:06

I think JB will be devastated with LH leaving and being the No.1 driver for Mac.No more candlelit dinners with LH,no more backslapping & joking in front of the camera with his best mate,its going to be a tough period but lets all hope he can somehow struggle :lol: thru.

#78 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,585 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:24

JB will be fine. McLaren... well... they must be praying for the next car to be a rocket or Perez to be faster than he seems.

#79 superdelphinus

superdelphinus
  • Member

  • 1,316 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:30

Praying? I always thought of mclaren as being more a team based in science than faith

Advertisement

#80 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,309 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:40

I don't know about Jenson specifically.. I mean overall he is very hot and cold.. and Perez is young and raw.. so of course.. there is a lot of risk.

But I will be cheering for this pair. I think McLaren has the opportunity to build a car that can suit both drivers.. being led by Jenson's experience (rather than his pace)..

Build a car that is hard and aggressive on it's tyres.. and then let these two drivers refine it.. because they are very similar and excell at the same thing. In the past.. it'd be hard to build a qualifying car for Jenson without making it harder for Lewis. There's been plenty of times where Jenson qualifies well and Lewis struggles. They like different things. But with Button and Perez they are more similar. So build the car that way.. on purpose from the very beginning.. and then let them sort it out in terms of balance and race pace and conserving the tyres.

I think it could be very interesting.. and Perez especially.. I'd be looking forward to seeing his race pace at the end of long stints. If McLaren can build a good car I think they can be a strong pair.. like Webber and Vettel.

#81 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,585 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:44

Praying? I always thought of mclaren as being more a team based in science than faith


Precisely, pray suggest desperation, even more if we think of Ron and the MTC. :lol:

#82 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,218 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:11

To win a championship, Button needs to perform every race - even on his championship year this plainly didn't happen and he won the title


:stoned:

#83 Dalton007

Dalton007
  • Member

  • 2,930 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:44

The tyre temp range will be bigger so heating the tyres will be a lot easier for the likes of Jenson. :up: And with Perez's driving style being similar to Jenson, I don't see why the team can't deliver a decent baseline car to build upon for both drivers.

#84 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,010 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:29

There is a bigger chance of JB leading Macca than Lewis leading Mercedes.

#85 F1isZen

F1isZen
  • Member

  • 90 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:01

In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton. With an average car, Hamilton is still able to deliver but Button struggles a bit more. Lewis is like Mansell in that he is able to 'grab the car by the scruff of the neck' (to quote M. Walker) and get a time out of it.

So if Mclaren have a top level car next year I fully expect to see Jenson challenging for the Championship.




Where do you people come from, it's like a genuine inability to think or reason. Jenson has been in a good car this season, remember all those pole positions Hamilton had taken with Jenson somewhere in 4th and 5th, remember the wins Hamiltons should have had where they did not fuel him rightly or pit stops were terrible. I mean forgive me if you had not watched the full season so far, but if you are just ignoring what has actually happened or how good the car has been just so you can make the point "In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton" then you make a very disingenuous point

#86 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,228 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:09

[/b]


Where do you people come from, it's like a genuine inability to think or reason. Jenson has been in a good car this season, remember all those pole positions Hamilton had taken with Jenson somewhere in 4th and 5th, remember the wins Hamiltons should have had where they did not fuel him rightly or pit stops were terrible. I mean forgive me if you had not watched the full season so far, but if you are just ignoring what has actually happened or how good the car has been just so you can make the point "In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton" then you make a very disingenuous point



It's what has happened in their almost three years together, like it or not. Hamilton in the same car hasn't done significantly more with it than Button in terms of wins and championships.

Therefore, what's disingenuous is to continually suggest a world of difference between the two. It's just not there. With a 2nd/3rd best car, neither is able to win a title, at the same time everything points to both of them being capable of winning in the best car.

#87 glorius&victorius

glorius&victorius
  • Member

  • 4,327 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:27

Jenson says that he built the Honda team around him... I am wondering what the results are of that building the team around him... as far as I know there was the 2004 highlight and then it went downhill since then.

6 seasons with BAR and Honda... about the 2004 highlight... i would put that down to Dave Richards management skills... and then the Honda engine in that year being one of the most powerful... i.e. good car + environment makes Jenson produce well.

But other than 2004... there were no highlights... of course Nick Fry screwed up everything that Richards had built... Willis had gone of to Red Bull...

2009 Brawn was down to the Mercedes engine, and Brawn exploiting a regulations loophole (one that he helped creating). Again Button drove great races when all was going well for him.

I have yet to see clear results of Button rallying the team around/behind him. The setup problems earlier this year looked... desperately amateuristic

#88 TheManAlive

TheManAlive
  • Member

  • 295 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:32

[/b]


Where do you people come from, it's like a genuine inability to think or reason. Jenson has been in a good car this season, remember all those pole positions Hamilton had taken with Jenson somewhere in 4th and 5th, remember the wins Hamiltons should have had where they did not fuel him rightly or pit stops were terrible. I mean forgive me if you had not watched the full season so far, but if you are just ignoring what has actually happened or how good the car has been just so you can make the point "In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton" then you make a very disingenuous point



Its people like you that make posting on these forums something I rarely do.


#89 Raziel

Raziel
  • Member

  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:19

As a McLaren fan I fear that the dark days are ahead. :| I can't trust Jenson, I just can't! He was destroyed by Hamilton in qualifying for the past 3 years and now qualifying is more important then ever. You can be +0,2-3 seconds slower in qualifying and end up out of top 10 and that is immediately a huge problem! It doesn't matter if the car is good in the race, the problem is that when you start from positions like 5-10 there is always a chance that you'll crash at the start of the race. The other problem is higher tire degradation, impossibility of overtaking etc. So qualifying is very very important and to have a great qualifying driver is one nightmare less for every team. Both Jenson and Sergio are not super fast Q drivers, they are not in top 5 and this will reflect on the car and McLaren team. People will always speculate how good McLaren car is and probably all of them more often than not will say "Lewis would have been on pole in that car" or "he would have been much higher" etc. McLaren lost a driver which was a benchmark how good the car really is, this is a painful truth. :( Both Jenson and Sergio have big shoes to fill, they need to up their game in qualifying to use maximal potential of the car because next season(s) the competition will be really ruthless!

#90 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:23

As a McLaren fan I fear that the dark days are ahead. :| I can't trust Jenson, I just can't! He was destroyed by Hamilton

Yeah.

#91 loki0420

loki0420
  • Member

  • 412 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:38

[/b]


Where do you people come from, it's like a genuine inability to think or reason. Jenson has been in a good car this season, remember all those pole positions Hamilton had taken with Jenson somewhere in 4th and 5th, remember the wins Hamiltons should have had where they did not fuel him rightly or pit stops were terrible. I mean forgive me if you had not watched the full season so far, but if you are just ignoring what has actually happened or how good the car has been just so you can make the point "In a good car Jenson can deliver his full potential as does Hamilton" then you make a very disingenuous point

do you?
1. Australia - Jenson 2nd
2. Malaysia - Jenson 2nd
3. Hungary - Jenson 4th
4. Monza - Jenson 2nd
5. Singapore - 4th.

which actually brings me to my next point - your biased opinion cannot be taken seriously. Drivers were struggling with team errors more or less equally.


#92 Raziel

Raziel
  • Member

  • 2,080 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:59

Yeah.


well it's a fact isn't it? I am talking about qualifying performance, not races! I didn't say he destroyed him in races for the past 3 years! So now you want to say that I have no rights to say who is faster driver between two McLaren drivers because I support the team and I have to be completely equal? :drunk: Ask the same question Ferrari and Red Bull fans and you'll get the answer, or maybe Ferrari and Red Bull doesn't have fans of the team? :lol: I want what is best for my team and just because I say that Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Raikkonen are fastest drivers and better options for McLaren then Sergio and Jenson, does that makes me a traitor? :stoned:

#93 purpleturtle

purpleturtle
  • Member

  • 130 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:04

2013 is definitely a worry for McLaren. With the cars so close, the driver has become a more crucial ingredient in performance and winning these last couple years.

That's why McLaren were trying hard to match Lewis' Mercedes offer - it is crucial to have a top top driver. And with Hamilton leaving, McLaren is a little screwed - they have no top top drivers to latch onto. Vettel ain't coming - Red Bull are making better cars... Alonso? They've burnt their bridges with him... and now Hamilton is spreading his wings.

Like someone here mentioned - McLaren's best hope is that Perez has top top driver potential.

#94 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,835 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:28

well it's a fact isn't it?

Yeah, I, for instance am a Hamilton fan. I really am. Really. Honest. I supported him over Massa for his 2008 championship. That I am massively disappointed when he does well and Button doesn't doesn't make me any less of a fan right? You, as a McLaren fan were really happy for a McLaren pole at Spa, right?

#95 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:29

:stoned:


Interesting quoting style - the full quote should have been 'To win a championship, Button needs to perform every race - even on his championship year this plainly didn't happen and he won the title due to the misfortunes of others.'


Button lucked into his WDC, if Brawn had gotten the brake issue sorted for Rubens eariler in the year or if Red Bull had been quicker to get the DDD working then we would not be speaking about him as a WDC - he was bleading points too quickly in the second part of the championship to think any otherwise. Looking forward, McLaren aren't going to wrap the team around him just in the same way that they did not wrap the team around Hamliton. Button is not going to get his own way as McLaren will go all out to get Perez comfortable and up to their expectations of speed, Button as many others have mentioned could find himself on the recieving end of the same sort of restructuring that happened when he joined McLaren. McLaren like any other team will always put McLaren first, Button just isn't strong enough for them to rely on, he's a second tier driver - a good one, but not the one of the best. We all appear to have short memories, before 2009 - Button was winding down his career - yesterdays man - and if Brawn had not rescued the team he would have been out of F1 and by now most likely forgotten.

For next year - if the team produce another car to the standard of this one, then there is no reason to believe that Button will not perform to the same standard of this year - in other words, interesting, but ultimately, an also ran as far as the WDC is concerned. A possible problem could be if he looses his way on set up again then there is no Hamliton data to fall back on as Perez could be reliant on Buttons data.

Bigger picture stuff is a problem for McLaren itself - its hard to imagine them doing well in the WCC as they have been - and that leads to a loss of money, combined with the need to pay for engines, and more expensive engines coming could lead to a much bigger problem for McLaren in the longer term - we may be at the start of another McLaren slump similar to the one in the 90's.

#96 Dalton007

Dalton007
  • Member

  • 2,930 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:32

How can a driver luck into a championship? Jenson was scoring points at a slower rate than RB, but he certainly didn't luck into anything. He fought for it fair and square.

#97 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,218 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:49

Interesting quoting style - the full quote should have been 'To win a championship, Button needs to perform every race - even on his championship year this plainly didn't happen and he won the title due to the misfortunes of others.'


Even so, your sentence is contradictory. Pretty much every championship is won with the assistance of the "misfortune" of others, part of winning is having less "misfortune" than your opponents. (2011 could be a rare exception, 2012 certainly won't be)

Putting "due to the misfortunes of others" on the end doesn't make it any more logical.

#98 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:50

How can a driver luck into a championship? Jenson was scoring points at a slower rate than RB, but he certainly didn't luck into anything. He fought for it fair and square.


In no particular order:

He was sat in a car that came out of nowhere which was seconds per lap faster than anything else on the grid,
The two main teams of the past few years were lost due to a mixture of KERS and bad design,
His team mate started the year with problems with his brakes - meaning that the only person who could have challenged him was not able to drive at 100%,
The car was very reliable, and when problems came, they hit Rubens car,
The car he was in had more than one trick, tricks it took others months to copy allowing him to build a massive points buffer,
When other's had caught up, they spent the second half of the year taking points off one another,
Towards the end of the year, McLaren and Ferrari came good with their cars and started taking points off the Red Bulls.

2009 was a perfect storm of a year for Button and Brawn. It happens - Button was in the right place at the right time - the WCC was not skill based, of course he had to drive the car, but when he was winning, the car was so fast that only Rubens could have challenged him and that did not happen. In the second part of the year Button was all over the place for the most part with Rubens actually popping in wins.


Now applying this to McLaren for next year, it is going to be very hard to make a car that fast, the field if anything is going to close up. Major rivals are unlikely to have an off year. He is going to have more people challenging him than just his team mate at the start of the year - so no easy wins to make a points buffer. McLaren are not making reliable cars at the moment. The tricks of this years McLaren are now know and mostly copied already never mind for next year.

Thrown into a close field, with no clear advantage - Button is not going to be WDC - there is simply nothing in his past (recent or otherwise) that suggests that. So, like many others are saying, I am expecting a poor year for McLaren - Button just isn't team leader material even if McLaren allowed him No.1 status in the team.







#99 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,218 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:54

In no particular order:

He was sat in a car that came out of nowhere which was seconds per lap faster than anything else on the grid,
The two main teams of the past few years were lost due to a mixture of KERS and bad design,
His team mate started the year with problems with his brakes - meaning that the only person who could have challenged him was not able to drive at 100%,
The car was very reliable, and when problems came, they hit Rubens car,
The car he was in had more than one trick, tricks it took others months to copy allowing him to build a massive points buffer,
When other's had caught up, they spent the second half of the year taking points off one another,
Towards the end of the year, McLaren and Ferrari came good with their cars and started taking points off the Red Bulls.

2009 was a perfect storm of a year for Button and Brawn. It happens - Button was in the right place at the right time - the WCC was not skill based, of course he had to drive the car, but when he was winning, the car was so fast that only Rubens could have challenged him and that did not happen. In the second part of the year Button was all over the place for the most part with Rubens actually popping in wins.


Now applying this to McLaren for next year, it is going to be very hard to make a car that fast, the field if anything is going to close up. Major rivals are unlikely to have an off year. He is going to have more people challenging him than just his team mate at the start of the year - so no easy wins to make a points buffer. McLaren are not making reliable cars at the moment. The tricks of this years McLaren are now know and mostly copied already never mind for next year.

Thrown into a close field, with no clear advantage - Button is not going to be WDC - there is simply nothing in his past (recent or otherwise) that suggests that. So, like many others are saying, I am expecting a poor year for McLaren - Button just isn't team leader material even if McLaren allowed him No.1 status in the team.


A fascinating mixture of fantasy and ignorance.

Advertisement

#100 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,438 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:55

If Lewis had left the team at the end of last year, I don't think you'd see all this stuff about how McLaren are now doomed.

The fact is that Jenson has had a bad year, mainly due to the rather odd tyres which Pirelli produced.

For next year, Pirelli may well have produced more predictable tyres, or even if they don't, I think Jenson won't take as long to adapt, and he will adapt his driving rather than trying to sort out his issues using setup alone.

I think the reason for Jenson's confusion this year is that he's previously always been able to get the car's setup sorted to his own satisfaction (or at least since about 2003).

And all the nonsense about failing to build a team at BAR/Honda - it was Honda who broke up the team and put their motorcycle designer in place!