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Jenson Button and Mclaren 2013 onwards


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#101 Raziel

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:22

Yeah, I, for instance am a Hamilton fan. I really am. Really. Honest. I supported him over Massa for his 2008 championship. That I am massively disappointed when he does well and Button doesn't doesn't make me any less of a fan right? You, as a McLaren fan were really happy for a McLaren pole at Spa, right?


Yes, I was very happy for Button and really glad he won his first pole position for McLaren. That was something I was expecting from him for the long time. At the same time I was also disappointed with Lewis' only 8th because at that time in Spa, he was the best option for McLaren to catch Alonso and in better position to win title. He was over 40 points ahead of Jenson and with bigger chance to catch championship leader. When the title is at stake, you gotta support a driver who has clear advantage after half of the season. If they were separated by only 10 points, then fine, it's game on, but when one driver has the advantage over 40 points then you need to look at things realistically and look at things in a different light. I will have the same view next year unconditionally supporting both McLaren drivers until I see that after 10-12 races one of them has clear advantage in championship standings. Then of course you have to be a bit more supportive of that guy who is in front because his chances for the title are bigger.

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#102 Rinehart

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:26

I think McLaren and Button, will be stronger in 2013. I think losing the 'faster driver' will turn out to be a blessing as they focus on and maximise the potential of Button, without the histrionics of Hamilton to worry about.


#103 Dalton007

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:59

In no particular order:

He was sat in a car that came out of nowhere which was seconds per lap faster than anything else on the grid,
The two main teams of the past few years were lost due to a mixture of KERS and bad design,
His team mate started the year with problems with his brakes - meaning that the only person who could have challenged him was not able to drive at 100%,
The car was very reliable, and when problems came, they hit Rubens car.


The BRAWN was easy on its tyres during the first half of 09 in the hands of Button. RB was much more aggressive. If another driver can't challenge him in the same machinery, then that's not Button's fault.

The car he was in had more than one trick, tricks it took others months to copy allowing him to build a massive points buffer,
When other's had caught up, they spent the second half of the year taking points off one another,
Towards the end of the year, McLaren and Ferrari came good with their cars and started taking points off the Red Bulls.


They had the DD. It was perfectly legal, if the other teams didn't design one at the beginning, so what? So by your luck definition, Vettel and his car's special toys like EBD don't deserve their championships?

2009 was a perfect storm of a year for Button and Brawn. It happens - Button was in the right place at the right time - the WCC was not skill based, of course he had to drive the car, but when he was winning, the car was so fast that only Rubens could have challenged him and that did not happen. In the second part of the year Button was all over the place for the most part with Rubens actually popping in wins.


:eek: Forget it. Your argument loses all credibility with comments like that.

Jenson's race pace for the most part was superior to RB's. I concede his quali pace was terrible, but that's his nimble driving style not generating heat into the tyres.





#104 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:05

I think McLaren and Button, will be stronger in 2013. I think losing the 'faster driver' will turn out to be a blessing as they focus on and maximise the potential of Button, without the histrionics of Hamilton to worry about.


Do you think it would be unfair to concentrate on Button and his needs next year, when they went out of there way to make sure that didn't happen to Hamilton from 2010 on?

I think they'll put a lot of effort into Perez, because if he fails then Whitmarsh and co will take huge stick for losing Hamilton. I think both drivers doing average would be better than Button doing well and Perez failing. Of course they might throw everything at Button in hope of a WDC, but that would be hugely unfair given the last few years.

#105 fed up

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:27

If Lewis had left the team at the end of last year, I don't think you'd see all this stuff about how McLaren are now doomed.

The fact is that Jenson has had a bad year, mainly due to the rather odd tyres which Pirelli produced.

For next year, Pirelli may well have produced more predictable tyres, or even if they don't, I think Jenson won't take as long to adapt, and he will adapt his driving rather than trying to sort out his issues using setup alone.

I think the reason for Jenson's confusion this year is that he's previously always been able to get the car's setup sorted to his own satisfaction (or at least since about 2003).

And all the nonsense about failing to build a team at BAR/Honda - it was Honda who broke up the team and put their motorcycle designer in place!


Yes, but it has taken until this season to get his first pole position.

Without the Poles I'm not sure he'll challenge for a WDC

#106 f1rules

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:01

I'm sorry but i don't see button leading any team let alone mclaren, unfortunately, he just don't have what it takes

#107 BillBald

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:01

Yes, but it has taken until this season to get his first pole position.

Without the Poles I'm not sure he'll challenge for a WDC


With Lewis in a Merc, I think Jenson will get more poles.

But poles have become much more important this season - that seems to be due to the tyres which degrade very quickly when following another car. The tyres will be changed for next year.



#108 f1rules

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:17

jenson is good when he is in the "zone" unfortunately he is to sensitive and its to difficult for him to get there

#109 loki0420

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:32

Without the Poles I'm not sure he'll challenge for a WDC

He has equal number of wins to Hamilton with 1 pole to 5, you know.

#110 fed up

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:36

He has equal number of wins to Hamilton with 1 pole to 5, you know.


Yes but neither of them are close to a WDC, you know

#111 David1976

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:43

jenson is good when he is in the "zone" unfortunately he is to sensitive and its to difficult for him to get there


Spot on. And his form is somewhat sporadic.
I am a McLaren fan but I cannot see next year being great for them to be honest.

#112 loki0420

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:44

Yes but neither of them are close to a WDC, you know

i was referring to desperate need of poles for WDC challenge. They aren't there for other reasons.

#113 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:45

Jenson is a creep. He gets right under skin. Lucky driver who picks up the pieces .


Are you one of his Ex girlfriends or something? :rotfl:

Jenson beat Lewis last year when Lewis was in a bad spot, and he was naturally not as close in his first year at the team in 2010. Lewis beat Jenson when Jenson was off form this year. I think Perez will better Jenson by 2014 to the same extent Lewis would today minus car issues, but Jenson will win in 2013.

The RBR was a better car for more races in 2009, and Vettel still didn't win, while in 2008 the Ferrari and McLaren had an equal shot at most races that year and Lewis won by a single point. Massa is not the driver Vettel is either. I don't see Jenson as any better or worse than Lewis over a season, and he is not such an infuriating personality.

#114 topical

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:27

As many here have said - Button is an above average driver but nothing special and he lucked into his WDC, it will not happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if the Button-Perez partnership only lasts one year, it is their weakest line up for a long time.

Edited by topical, 11 October 2012 - 16:27.


#115 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:34

I'm not sure really what the point of this thread is other than 'well if there's a thread about Hamilton then we Simply Must Have One For Button'.

Jenson joined BAR and took the team away from the incumbent WDC, by both fair and foul means, and then showed his qualities in 2004 with a superb run of results to be the best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari's. He then stayed with the team through difficult years and the 2009 Brawn switch to make the very best of the opportunities given to him, wrapping the championship up well before the end of the year.

He has shown that he can bring a team on side and lead it, that he can be consistent enough to win a championship, and that he has the strength of character to take on a challenging teammate on equal terms. From recent statements, it is clear that he knows the importance of having a team with him and recognises that where he can't get a team on side, his chances of mounting a challenge would not be as good. I'm thinking specifically of the Alonso/Ferrari comment.

"Is JB fast enough to lead McLaren short of them having a Brawn year?" It's a bit of a logical fallacy because one could equally argue that Brawn would not have won a championship short of having a Button quality driver. Does anyone really think Barrichello would have done it? I don't. I think there are other drivers that could do it, certainly, but not many, and none that might have taken a risk on Brawn in that year.

"Will it be a mistake to have JB as the lead driver [or will] the team...operate more harmoniously". No idea because they're two new personalities working together. No doubt there will be mind games and pissing contests. Button might expect the team to move towards him since the guy in the other car isn't a WDC and doesn't have the contractual clout he did when he joined McLaren, so how will he react if that doesn't happen? Not sure we'll really know the answer to that, but it will be interesting to see if Perez can do to Button what Button did to Villeneuve.

"...I don't think JB can take it to an on song Red Bull in the hands of Vettel or the Ferrari in the hands of Fred." Kimi is beating both McLaren drivers in a car that hasn't won a race or had a single pole position. Importantly, he has been consistent despite some odd strategy decisions, but with minimal technical glitches, which brings me to;

"This year's car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if JBs results were the only ones looked at". This years car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if LH's results were the only ones looked at. It's like those DNF's never happened. Your statement uses the car as a proxy for how good you think Jenson is, which is fine and I wouldn't want you to pretend you think he's any good if you don't.

#116 Lazy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:40

As many here have said - Button is an above average driver but nothing special and he lucked into his WDC, it will not happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if the Button-Perez partnership only lasts one year, it is their weakest line up for a long time.


Well if we use the accuracy of Lewis' fans predictions regarding Jenson since he signed in 2009, and extrapolate the current set, it looks like Jenson is pretty much guaranteed the WDC next year :)

#117 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:43

I'm not sure really what the point of this thread is other than 'well if there's a thread about Hamilton then we Simply Must Have One For Button'.

Jenson joined BAR and took the team away from the incumbent WDC, by both fair and foul means, and then showed his qualities in 2004 with a superb run of results to be the best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari's. He then stayed with the team through difficult years and the 2009 Brawn switch to make the very best of the opportunities given to him, wrapping the championship up well before the end of the year.

He has shown that he can bring a team on side and lead it, that he can be consistent enough to win a championship, and that he has the strength of character to take on a challenging teammate on equal terms. From recent statements, it is clear that he knows the importance of having a team with him and recognises that where he can't get a team on side, his chances of mounting a challenge would not be as good. I'm thinking specifically of the Alonso/Ferrari comment.

"Is JB fast enough to lead McLaren short of them having a Brawn year?" It's a bit of a logical fallacy because one could equally argue that Brawn would not have won a championship short of having a Button quality driver. Does anyone really think Barrichello would have done it? I don't. I think there are other drivers that could do it, certainly, but not many, and none that might have taken a risk on Brawn in that year.

"Will it be a mistake to have JB as the lead driver [or will] the team...operate more harmoniously". No idea because they're two new personalities working together. No doubt there will be mind games and pissing contests. Button might expect the team to move towards him since the guy in the other car isn't a WDC and doesn't have the contractual clout he did when he joined McLaren, so how will he react if that doesn't happen? Not sure we'll really know the answer to that, but it will be interesting to see if Perez can do to Button what Button did to Villeneuve.

"...I don't think JB can take it to an on song Red Bull in the hands of Vettel or the Ferrari in the hands of Fred." Kimi is beating both McLaren drivers in a car that hasn't won a race or had a single pole position. Importantly, he has been consistent despite some odd strategy decisions, but with minimal technical glitches, which brings me to;

"This year's car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if JBs results were the only ones looked at". This years car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if LH's results were the only ones looked at. It's like those DNF's never happened. Your statement uses the car as a proxy for how good you think Jenson is, which is fine and I wouldn't want you to pretend you think he's any good if you don't.


Who wanted him?

And he certainly didn't wrap it up well before the end of the year. He fell over the line thanks to a Red Bull strategy error in Brazil qualy.

Edited by thesham01, 11 October 2012 - 16:43.


#118 peroa

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:47

I'm not sure really what the point of this thread is other than 'well if there's a thread about Hamilton then we Simply Must Have One For Button'.

Jenson joined BAR and took the team away from the incumbent WDC, by both fair and foul means, and then showed his qualities in 2004 with a superb run of results to be the best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari's. He then stayed with the team through difficult years and the 2009 Brawn switch to make the very best of the opportunities given to him, wrapping the championship up well before the end of the year.

He has shown that he can bring a team on side and lead it, that he can be consistent enough to win a championship, and that he has the strength of character to take on a challenging teammate on equal terms. From recent statements, it is clear that he knows the importance of having a team with him and recognises that where he can't get a team on side, his chances of mounting a challenge would not be as good. I'm thinking specifically of the Alonso/Ferrari comment.

"Is JB fast enough to lead McLaren short of them having a Brawn year?" It's a bit of a logical fallacy because one could equally argue that Brawn would not have won a championship short of having a Button quality driver. Does anyone really think Barrichello would have done it? I don't. I think there are other drivers that could do it, certainly, but not many, and none that might have taken a risk on Brawn in that year.

"Will it be a mistake to have JB as the lead driver [or will] the team...operate more harmoniously". No idea because they're two new personalities working together. No doubt there will be mind games and pissing contests. Button might expect the team to move towards him since the guy in the other car isn't a WDC and doesn't have the contractual clout he did when he joined McLaren, so how will he react if that doesn't happen? Not sure we'll really know the answer to that, but it will be interesting to see if Perez can do to Button what Button did to Villeneuve.

"...I don't think JB can take it to an on song Red Bull in the hands of Vettel or the Ferrari in the hands of Fred." Kimi is beating both McLaren drivers in a car that hasn't won a race or had a single pole position. Importantly, he has been consistent despite some odd strategy decisions, but with minimal technical glitches, which brings me to;

"This year's car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if JBs results were the only ones looked at". This years car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if LH's results were the only ones looked at. It's like those DNF's never happened. Your statement uses the car as a proxy for how good you think Jenson is, which is fine and I wouldn't want you to pretend you think he's any good if you don't.

In JB's case you can say car, in LH's case you will have to replace car with team.


#119 Lazy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:12

Who wanted him?

And he certainly didn't wrap it up well before the end of the year. He fell over the line thanks to a Red Bull strategy error in Brazil qualy.


Nonsense he did enough to seal the title even if Vettel, who started just behind Button btw, had won. And if you call that falling over the line, Lewis' championship was a miracle.

If nobody wanted him, how come Honda were prepared to pay a very substantial wage to keep his services?

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#120 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:16

Nonsense he did enough to seal the title even if Vettel, who started just behind Button btw, had won. And if you call that falling over the line, Lewis' championship was a miracle.

If nobody wanted him, how come Honda were prepared to pay a very substantial wage to keep his services?


Buttoner said he 'wrapped up the championship well before the end', implying it was a cruise. Do you agree with this?


#121 Lights

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:19

Buttoner said he 'wrapped up the championship well before the end', implying it was a cruise. Do you agree with this?

No, I don't agree that it implied that it was a cruise.

#122 Force Ten

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:19

In JB's case you can say car, in LH's case you will have to replace car with team.

Hmm. Bahrein, Monaco, Valencia, Silverstone, Germany, Spa, Japan. With no benchmark in the other car, that was the car. So. Not that brilliant in half the races.

#123 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:21

No, I don't agree that it implied that it was a cruise.


Another strawman.

Do you agree that he 'wrapped the championship up well before the end'?

Edited by thesham01, 11 October 2012 - 17:21.


#124 MinT

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:42

I am struggling to read this and understand the difference between this thread and the JB v Hami "discussion".

Maybe better to park this up until the end of the season when the Hami fans will have lost interest and it might then stand a chance of staying on topic raher than going over old ground that has been done to death in numerous other threads.

#125 P123

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:48

I think McLaren and Button, will be stronger in 2013. I think losing the 'faster driver' will turn out to be a blessing as they focus on and maximise the potential of Button, without the histrionics of Hamilton to worry about.


I somehow doubt the technical team are held back by the 'histrionics of Hamilton'. Those will only tend to trouble the PR dept, and internet keyboard warriors, and they don't design nor develop a car. On the contrary, had the 'faster driver' not been present this year then the technical team would not have had his data available in order to realise that they didn't have a car problem and a lot more time and effort may have been required from them to bring the car back to the front. JB has lost his way slightly with a car before ( his late 2009 performances v Rubens compared to early season), so what makes you think 2013 is going to be all roses? McLaren also have to integrate Perez into the team. What will his feedback be? What will his preferences be? They will be busy 'moulding' him too. It's not going to be a one driver team.

#126 Force Ten

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:58

On the contrary, had the 'faster driver' not been present this year then the technical team would not have had his data available in order to realise that they didn't have a car problem and a lot more time and effort may have been required from them to bring the car back to the front.

There would have been SOME driver in the second car and considering it's McLaren he would have been at least okay as far as drivers go. The sudden relative drop off would have still been the same.

#127 P123

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 17:58

I am struggling to read this and understand the difference between this thread and the JB v Hami "discussion".

Maybe better to park this up until the end of the season when the Hami fans will have lost interest and it might then stand a chance of staying on topic raher than going over old ground that has been done to death in numerous other threads.


Hmm, you need to get over your 'Hami fan' fixation. Most of your posts are either about him or his fans. And the irony in your complaint is that Hamilton isn't being brought into the discussion solely by Hamilton fans either..... seems you're part of the problem.

#128 P123

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:00

There would have been SOME driver in the second car and considering it's McLaren he would have been at least okay as far as drivers go. The sudden relative drop off would have still been the same.


That's a fair point. But anyway, much like the LH to Merc topic it's pretty much a case of let's wait and see. I'm sure they will all be fine, however much some hope for the opposite to be true.

#129 MirNyet

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:02

Well, the great thing about this discussion is that we are actually going to get an answer to this. It is going to be interesting to look back on this in 12 months time.

:)

#130 zack1994

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:05

Interesting quoting style - the full quote should have been 'To win a championship, Button needs to perform every race - even on his championship year this plainly didn't happen and he won the title due to the misfortunes of others.'


Button lucked into his WDC, if Brawn had gotten the brake issue sorted for Rubens eariler in the year or if Red Bull had been quicker to get the DDD working then we would not be speaking about him as a WDC - he was bleading points too quickly in the second part of the championship to think any otherwise. Looking forward, McLaren aren't going to wrap the team around him just in the same way that they did not wrap the team around Hamliton. Button is not going to get his own way as McLaren will go all out to get Perez comfortable and up to their expectations of speed, Button as many others have mentioned could find himself on the recieving end of the same sort of restructuring that happened when he joined McLaren. McLaren like any other team will always put McLaren first, Button just isn't strong enough for them to rely on, he's a second tier driver - a good one, but not the one of the best. We all appear to have short memories, before 2009 - Button was winding down his career - yesterdays man - and if Brawn had not rescued the team he would have been out of F1 and by now most likely forgotten.

For next year - if the team produce another car to the standard of this one, then there is no reason to believe that Button will not perform to the same standard of this year - in other words, interesting, but ultimately, an also ran as far as the WDC is concerned. A possible problem could be if he looses his way on set up again then there is no Hamliton data to fall back on as Perez could be reliant on Buttons data.

Bigger picture stuff is a problem for McLaren itself - its hard to imagine them doing well in the WCC as they have been - and that leads to a loss of money, combined with the need to pay for engines, and more expensive engines coming could lead to a much bigger problem for McLaren in the longer term - we may be at the start of another McLaren slump similar to the one in the 90's.

Can an i ask you something, why did you mention rubens problems with set-up and forget jenson's problems .
I Will wait for your reply. You know rubens had no brake problems at all in spain and we know the end result there.


#131 zack1994

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:11

In no particular order:

He was sat in a car that came out of nowhere which was seconds per lap faster than anything else on the grid,
The two main teams of the past few years were lost due to a mixture of KERS and bad design,
His team mate started the year with problems with his brakes - meaning that the only person who could have challenged him was not able to drive at 100%,
The car was very reliable, and when problems came, they hit Rubens car,
The car he was in had more than one trick, tricks it took others months to copy allowing him to build a massive points buffer,
When other's had caught up, they spent the second half of the year taking points off one another,
Towards the end of the year, McLaren and Ferrari came good with their cars and started taking points off the Red Bulls.

2009 was a perfect storm of a year for Button and Brawn. It happens - Button was in the right place at the right time - the WCC was not skill based, of course he had to drive the car, but when he was winning, the car was so fast that only Rubens could have challenged him and that did not happen. In the second part of the year Button was all over the place for the most part with Rubens actually popping in wins.
Now applying this to McLaren for next year, it is going to be very hard to make a car that fast, the field if anything is going to close up. Major rivals are unlikely to have an off year. He is going to have more people challenging him than just his team mate at the start of the year - so no easy wins to make a points buffer. McLaren are not making reliable cars at the moment. The tricks of this years McLaren are now know and mostly copied already never mind for next year.

Thrown into a close field, with no clear advantage - Button is not going to be WDC - there is simply nothing in his past (recent or otherwise) that suggests that. So, like many others are saying, I am expecting a poor year for McLaren - Button just isn't team leader material even if McLaren allowed him No.1 status in the team.

Remember you have mentioned rubens issues in the first part of the year with setup.
So why are you forgetting jenson. you have to ask yourself why he was all over the place, ws he just rubbish or was there a reason like tyre temperature which hindered him over rubens, because RB was more aggresive.

#132 zack1994

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:13

A fascinating mixture of fantasy and ignorance.

+1

#133 MirNyet

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:33

Remember you have mentioned rubens issues in the first part of the year with setup.
So why are you forgetting jenson. you have to ask yourself why he was all over the place, ws he just rubbish or was there a reason like tyre temperature which hindered him over rubens, because RB was more aggresive.


The brake problem was that Ruben's was not getting the feeling he wanted with his brakes - this was I recall solved with a change of brake product. I am not choosing to ignore that Button had problems - in fact this is part of the point I am trying to make. The general tone here is that he won a championship before, therefore he can do it again. My posts were to point out he won under special curcumstances, and even then only just. When Red Bull caught them up in terms of design features and their speed 'safety net' was gone and the car was having to be set up more agressively Button started to have problems - wereas Rubens in the same car was winning races. He needs a car advantage which he is not going to get next year.

The question of this thread is 'can Button lead McLaren to a WDC/WCC next year?' well, on past performance - without a considerable car advantage - the simple answer is no. He needs a stable balanced car otherwise he has issues - without a performance advantage you have to set the car up with less downforce - this can give the car balance issues which punish Button more than top tier drivers who can accommodate such things to a point.

This is not about if he is a nice guy or not, or if he can put in the odd win, it is about can he bring home championships - my viewpoint is that he will not. As I said couple of posts ago - we will find out soon enough :)





#134 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:49

The brake problem was that Ruben's was not getting the feeling he wanted with his brakes - this was I recall solved with a change of brake product. I am not choosing to ignore that Button had problems - in fact this is part of the point I am trying to make. The general tone here is that he won a championship before, therefore he can do it again. My posts were to point out he won under special curcumstances, and even then only just. When Red Bull caught them up in terms of design features and their speed 'safety net' was gone and the car was having to be set up more agressively Button started to have problems - wereas Rubens in the same car was winning races. He needs a car advantage which he is not going to get next year.

The question of this thread is 'can Button lead McLaren to a WDC/WCC next year?' well, on past performance - without a considerable car advantage - the simple answer is no. He needs a stable balanced car otherwise he has issues - without a performance advantage you have to set the car up with less downforce - this can give the car balance issues which punish Button more than top tier drivers who can accommodate such things to a point.

This is not about if he is a nice guy or not, or if he can put in the odd win, it is about can he bring home championships - my viewpoint is that he will not. As I said couple of posts ago - we will find out soon enough :)


I agree.

Edited by thesham01, 11 October 2012 - 18:49.


#135 zack1994

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:49

The brake problem was that Ruben's was not getting the feeling he wanted with his brakes - this was I recall solved with a change of brake product. I am not choosing to ignore that Button had problems - in fact this is part of the point I am trying to make. The general tone here is that he won a championship before, therefore he can do it again. My posts were to point out he won under special curcumstances, and even then only just. When Red Bull caught them up in terms of design features and their speed 'safety net' was gone and the car was having to be set up more agressively Button started to have problems - wereas Rubens in the same car was winning races. He needs a car advantage which he is not going to get next year.

The question of this thread is 'can Button lead McLaren to a WDC/WCC next year?' well, on past performance - without a considerable car advantage - the simple answer is no. He needs a stable balanced car otherwise he has issues - without a performance advantage you have to set the car up with less downforce - this can give the car balance issues which punish Button more than top tier drivers who can accommodate such things to a point.
This is not about if he is a nice guy or not, or if he can put in the odd win, it is about can he bring home championships - my viewpoint is that he will not. As I said couple of posts ago - we will find out soon enough :)

But thats just not true you are pointing out a season that wasnt plain sailing the won where he won the championship, it was tough with the tyre temperature problems and set-up issues.
Overall over the 2009 season the red bull was right with brawn but button still won.

#136 MirNyet

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:00

But thats just not true you are pointing out a season that wasnt plain sailing the won where he won the championship, it was tough with the tyre temperature problems and set-up issues.
Overall over the 2009 season the red bull was right with brawn but button still won.


Well, I disagree - without a perfect balance, Button has problems - other drivers do not. My point is that without a car advantage (which he did have for the start of 2009), he will not perform in such a way as to string together a world championship as he is too hit and miss. We can argue about 2009 all we like but the simple fact is that he won that because of the very large points buffer he built up using a car advantage - there is no shame in this and many championships have been won this way. Next year is not going to be a repeat of 2009, no one is going to make another car like the Brawn this far into the regs.

Slightly off topic - apparently the car to have by the end of 2009 was the McLaren - not the Red Bull according to Vettel!

#137 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:07

But thats just not true you are pointing out a season that wasnt plain sailing the won where he won the championship, it was tough with the tyre temperature problems and set-up issues.
Overall over the 2009 season the red bull was right with brawn but button still won.


He won 6 of the first 7 races due to a car advantage. Then when the field had caught up and the real business began, he stumbled over the line with his team-mate being the better driver in the 2nd half. With his team-mate actually looking like the guy who can deliver when the chips are down.

Edited by thesham01, 11 October 2012 - 19:07.


#138 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:10

He won 6 of the first 7 races due to a car advantage. Then when the field had caught up and the real business began, he stumbled over the line with his team-mate being the better driver in the 2nd half. With his team-mate actually looking like the guy who can deliver when the chips are down.


Yet he couldn't deliver when the car had an advantage? So he was crap in a good car and great in a crap car? What's your point here?

#139 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:13

Yet he couldn't deliver when the car had an advantage? So he was crap in a good car and great in a crap car? What's your point here?


My point is delivering for a whole season under pressure of being in the WDC fight. There are question marks over him.

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#140 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:26

My point is delivering for a whole season under pressure of being in the WDC fight. There are question marks over him.


You do realise that Jenson finished in the points in all races apart from one when he retired. Even when they stopped development on the car due to lack of funds he still did what he needed to win the championship. Looking at the stats who do you think performed better?

http://www.formula1....ver/2009/6.html
http://www.formula1....ver/2009/8.html

#141 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:42

You do realise that Jenson finished in the points in all races apart from one when he retired. Even when they stopped development on the car due to lack of funds he still did what he needed to win the championship. Looking at the stats who do you think performed better?

http://www.formula1....ver/2009/6.html
http://www.formula1....ver/2009/8.html


Last 7 races

JB RB Points Gap


7 1 -8
- 7 -10
2 1 -12
5 6 -11
8 7 -12
5 8 -9
3 4 -8

So while he did excellent in the first 7 when he had all the advantages, crunch time (and equality time) paints a different picture. I'm not saying he crumbled, I'm simply saying there are question marks.

Do you disagree?

EDIT: that came out horrible and I'm not sure how to change it in quick edit, sorry.

Edited by thesham01, 11 October 2012 - 19:44.


#142 Peter Perfect

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:55

Last 7 races


JB RB Points Gap
7 1 -8
- 7 -10
2 1 -12
5 6 -11
8 7 -12
5 8 -9
3 4 -8


So while he did excellent in the first 7 when he had all the advantages, crunch time (and equality time) paints a different picture. I'm not saying he crumbled, I'm simply saying there are question marks.

Do you disagree?

EDIT: that came out horrible and I'm not sure how to change it in quick edit, sorry.


Use the [ pre ] tags if you want to put in pre-formatted text. It'll keep all the table spacing.

By the looks of it over the last 7 races when Rubens was a race winner Button only lost 8 points to him. Not bad to say his tyre warming problems left him in deep do-do compared to his teammate.

#143 BillBald

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:01

By the looks of it over the last 7 races when Rubens was a race winner Button only lost 8 points to him. Not bad to say his tyre warming problems left him in deep do-do compared to his teammate.


And in the last 5 races Jenson outscored Rubens, apparently.

Really there was just one race where Jenson didn't perform, that was Valencia. And the reason for that was that Vettel, who quite possibly already knew his engine was going to fail, threatened to put Jenson into the wall, so that he backed off and was swallowed by the pack.



#144 MP422

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:03

Hamilton slashed RB's tire in brazil !!!

guys and gals we know we can't just look at stats by now right ?

#145 zack1994

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:08

My point is delivering for a whole season under pressure of being in the WDC fight. There are question marks over him.

He did crumble a bit, but now he has won a WC i dont think he would feel the pressure as much.

#146 Peter Perfect

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:08

Hamilton slashed RB's tire in brazil !!!

guys and gals we know we can't just look at stats by now right ?

You're right.... thinking about it I reckon Button just suffered from a lot of bad luck over those last 7 races ;)

#147 thesham01

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:08

Use the [ pre ] tags if you want to put in pre-formatted text. It'll keep all the table spacing.

By the looks of it over the last 7 races when Rubens was a race winner Button only lost 8 points to him. Not bad to say his tyre warming problems left him in deep do-do compared to his teammate.


:up: Nice one for the help.

But his tyre warmer issues are part of who he is, and he has suffered more than once with it, that only helps my point.

Next year the field will be just as tight, maybe even tighter. Qualifying will be even more important, something which is not his forte. Add to this his repeated issues with getting a car to his liking, plus his struggles thereafter with an unbalanced car, and I don't think he is a good enough driver to lead a top 3 team to a WDC.

I believe the McLaren will need to have a considerable pace advantage for him to win; give him an advantage like in Spa and he will do fine, but if the car is only slightly faster than the rest (ala the last 4/5 bar Japan), then he will only be podium material. Vettel and Alonso will get more out of the car, as will Hamilton.



#148 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:09

Last 7 races

JB RB Points Gap


7 1 -8
- 7 -10
2 1 -12
5 6 -11
8 7 -12
5 8 -9
3 4 -8

So while he did excellent in the first 7 when he had all the advantages, crunch time (and equality time) paints a different picture. I'm not saying he crumbled, I'm simply saying there are question marks.

Do you disagree?

EDIT: that came out horrible and I'm not sure how to change it in quick edit, sorry.


From the European GP to the Abu Dhabi GP (last 7 races) RB accumulated 33 points, JB 25 points including 1 DNF. From the Australian GP to the Hungarian GP (first 10 races) RB accumulated 44 points including 1 DNF, JB 70.

Other stats (for the entire season):
JB
Poles: 4
Wins: 6
DNF: 1
Positions gained: 30
Positions lost: 5
Podiums: 9 (including wins)

RB
Poles: 1
Wins: 2
DNF: 1
Positions gained: 17
Positions lost: 16
Podiums: 6 (including wins)

Edited by PARAZAR, 11 October 2012 - 20:13.


#149 Burtros

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:12

Last 7 races

JB RB Points Gap


7 1 -8
- 7 -10
2 1 -12
5 6 -11
8 7 -12
5 8 -9
3 4 -8

So while he did excellent in the first 7 when he had all the advantages, crunch time (and equality time) paints a different picture. I'm not saying he crumbled, I'm simply saying there are question marks.

Do you disagree?

EDIT: that came out horrible and I'm not sure how to change it in quick edit, sorry.


Its very easy to look at the second half and paint a very poor picture of JB, but your making a lot out of an 8 point gap I think. Some of his driving, in particular in Brazil was sublime, while Rubens made a habbit when in that position of bumping into people.

I think theres an interesting parallell between that and what we have seen of Button throughout the last few years. Even when hes not as fast as his team mate, he doesnt really lose a lot of ground to them. When he is faster and has the car, hes darn near flawless.

That leads me onto how I feel about next year. On 2012 form, Jenson nor McLaren can do it. However, I think the improvements required by both are not as drastic as they may seem on the face of it. Without his slump this year, Jenson would be much more involved it the chase of Alonso, based on his other results. If 2013 carries on like 2012 in terms of consistency for everyone, minor improvements will keep McLaren and JB in the fight. They key to all this? His consitency. So onto McLaren. I think they'll re-focus without Lewis. They'll know that race wins may be harder next year without him thats for sure - hopefully this will mean they can find a way to illiminate the errors of this year and that have cost them somtimes small, sometimes big.

So in conclusion for me. Without another slump, a small improvement in qualifying and if Macca sort themselves then they will be there fighting. No panic for me.

Its interesting, I'm not the most impartial as I am a JB fan, but he does seem to get a lot of flack on here without proper


#150 gricey1981

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:13

I'm not sure really what the point of this thread is other than 'well if there's a thread about Hamilton then we Simply Must Have One For Button'.

Jenson joined BAR and took the team away from the incumbent WDC, by both fair and foul means, and then showed his qualities in 2004 with a superb run of results to be the best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari's. He then stayed with the team through difficult years and the 2009 Brawn switch to make the very best of the opportunities given to him, wrapping the championship up well before the end of the year.

He has shown that he can bring a team on side and lead it, that he can be consistent enough to win a championship, and that he has the strength of character to take on a challenging teammate on equal terms. From recent statements, it is clear that he knows the importance of having a team with him and recognises that where he can't get a team on side, his chances of mounting a challenge would not be as good. I'm thinking specifically of the Alonso/Ferrari comment.

"Is JB fast enough to lead McLaren short of them having a Brawn year?" It's a bit of a logical fallacy because one could equally argue that Brawn would not have won a championship short of having a Button quality driver. Does anyone really think Barrichello would have done it? I don't. I think there are other drivers that could do it, certainly, but not many, and none that might have taken a risk on Brawn in that year.

"Will it be a mistake to have JB as the lead driver [or will] the team...operate more harmoniously". No idea because they're two new personalities working together. No doubt there will be mind games and pissing contests. Button might expect the team to move towards him since the guy in the other car isn't a WDC and doesn't have the contractual clout he did when he joined McLaren, so how will he react if that doesn't happen? Not sure we'll really know the answer to that, but it will be interesting to see if Perez can do to Button what Button did to Villeneuve.

"...I don't think JB can take it to an on song Red Bull in the hands of Vettel or the Ferrari in the hands of Fred." Kimi is beating both McLaren drivers in a car that hasn't won a race or had a single pole position. Importantly, he has been consistent despite some odd strategy decisions, but with minimal technical glitches, which brings me to;

"This year's car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if JBs results were the only ones looked at". This years car would have been seen as a bit of a failure if LH's results were the only ones looked at. It's like those DNF's never happened. Your statement uses the car as a proxy for how good you think Jenson is, which is fine and I wouldn't want you to pretend you think he's any good if you don't.



The point of the thread is to discuss whether Button can lead Mclaren against Seb at red Bull and Fred at Ferrari.

If Button had not been in the Brawn - yeah I think Rubens would have won it - the car was that good.

The only real difficult years were 07 and 08 and he stayed coz no-one better wanted him. Dont forget there was that Macca seat available in 07.

What has Kimi got to do with anything?

It would have been looked at as lacking speed if Jbs results were counted. Thats obviously what I meant.

Still its good to hear from our neutral moderators from time to time. :)

Edited by gricey1981, 11 October 2012 - 20:25.