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Jenson Button and Mclaren 2013 onwards


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#201 sofarapartguy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:47

Because I am still interested to hear peoples views regardless.


Thats good to know. As long as Mercedes up their game next year, I don't care who is leading the McLaren team.


Whatever.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 12 October 2012 - 10:47.


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#202 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:49

Whatever.

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Come on now.

#203 WitnessX

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:59

....
He won one race before the end, and only because other people tripped up worse than he did.

I did a post some time ago in reference to the Buttons qualifying in 2009.

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5690549

Well it wasn't just that - an awful lot of incidents occurred:
Caution: Bear in mind that qualifying in 2009 was under race-start fuel conditions.

Silverstone 6 - Misunderstanding ("OK") between engineers leads to them aborting his hot lap (where he was up on his time)
Nürbergring 3 - Weather change during qualifying.
Hungary 8 - Massa incident, held in pits in Q3 for rework on suspension, over-fueled for q. attempt.
Valencia 5 - Own mistake (braking)
Spa - 14, cold tyre problems (Lewis=12) - (Taken out by Grosjean on lap 1)
Monza 6 - High fuel load.
Singapore 12 - Ride height problem, Tyre pressures were dropped for Q2, car bottomed out under braking.
Japan 7 (start position 10 after penalties applied) - Qualy lap done under yellow flag and through debris.
Brasil 14 - Weather changes (Lewis=18)
Abu Dhabi 5. (no incident!)


Were other people tripped up worse than he was?


#204 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:16

Please remember that this thread is primarily to discuss how you think Button will do in 2013 and while the past will influence and colour your opinions, substantive discussion of previous issues should not be the point of the discussion.

There are threads for Jenson Button, for Lewis Hamilton, and for Jenson v Lewis.

#205 Slartibartfast

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:40

I'll repeat, even though I know the question will be ignored like before:

Do you think Buttoner was correct, while wearing his fair and just moderator hat, that Button 'wrapped up the championship up well before the end of the year'?

He won one race before the end, and only because other people tripped up worse than he did.

Giving your question more attention than it deserves; yes, I do. His characterisation is far more accurate than yours.
Furthermore, if you genuinely believe your description to be fair then I expect you have an even poorer opinion of some of the other recent champions' ability to wrap up a season.

#206 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:51

In the context of next year, judging on the past few years, and having Perez getting settled into McLaren my guess would be 4th or 5th in the WCC and neither driver in the top 5 come the end of the year. Depends on if Lotus get their act together and both of their drivers stay out of trouble. If Mercedes produce a half decent car that McLaren could be in real trouble.

Being realistic, I think the most as a McLaren fan we can expect next year is a couple of wins on tracks which suit the car and then bouncing around in the cheap seats of the points.

My reasoning on this is:

No stand out tech step allowing the cars to start the year with roughly the same toys,
No trick tires to trip up the teams,
McLaren operational errors,
Development pace being slowed by learning what Perez needs,
Perez being a little crashy when under pressure,
Buttons narrow setup window,
Track sensitive design (we have seen this during races this year),
Design improvements from teams such as Ferrari and Mercedes,




#207 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:02

Giving your question more attention than it deserves; yes, I do. His characterisation is far more accurate than yours.
Furthermore, if you genuinely believe your description to be fair then I expect you have an even poorer opinion of some of the other recent champions' ability to wrap up a season.


Did they win the first 6 of 7 races, and were then beaten by their team-mate in the last 10 races? If not then you can't compare.

My characterisation is: He won the title after struggling to find any real form in the second half of the season, and would have been in real danger of losing the title had it not been for Red Bull making a huge blunder in Brazil qualy.

Buttoner's: He wrapped up the championship well before the end.

If you honestly believe the latter to be 'far more' accurate, there is nothing I can do to persuade you, so we will leave it there.

Edited by thesham01, 12 October 2012 - 12:06.


#208 Dalton007

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:04

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.

#209 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:08

So basically the some Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.

I think this is much more accurate. :D

#210 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:09

Your point is non-existent. It's pretty clear that Jenson drove differently in the 2nd half of 2009, precisely because he was defending his lead, and was probably a little over-anxious not to throw away his chance at the title.

If Jenson hadn't been defending a lead, he might not have backed off when Vettel squeezed him in Valencia, and in fact Vettel might not have squeezed him so aggressively, so the 8 points which Rubens gained on him would have been maybe only 2 or 3 points. In which case Jenson's points in the last 7 races would be the same as Rubens'.

But all this is speculative, the fact is he did what he needed to do and won reasonably comfortably, not in a last corner scramble.


I remember that excuse being rolled out at the time by Ross Brawn; Button is doing the very intelligent thing and playing it safe.

It was clearly a cover to take the pressure off, surely you don't actually believe Brawn? It was the act of a very intelligent and experienced team leader making sure his driver was able to perform at his best. Evidence before and after clearly shows that Button is like that anyway, it was his normal driving.

#211 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:09

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.


Stop projecting.

#212 corf

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:10

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.


Of course they do, Jenson has shown Lewis up during their time together by not getting destroyed as they all assumed he would and they don't like it.

Edited by corf, 12 October 2012 - 12:10.


#213 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:13

Did they win the first 6 of 7 races, and were then beaten by their team-mate in the last 10 races? If not then you can't compare.

My characterisation is: He won the title after struggling to find any real form in the second half of the season, and would have been in real danger of losing the title had it not been for Red Bull making a huge blunder in Brazil qualy.
Buttoner's: He wrapped up the championship well before the end.

If you honestly believe the latter to be 'far more' accurate, there is nothing I can do to persuade you, so we will leave it there.


Sorry but that is bull crap , realisticly Red bull would of been hoping for Button to DNF to have any real chance of the WDC , Button still had a cusion of points to fall back on. Jenson was scoring points consistanly even if he was not in the thick of it and in a way buttoner right, he won the championship in brazil not abu duabi.

#214 undersquare

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:17

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.

Well obviously that would validate our choice of driver, as it were, and also help Lewis' position in the wdc perhaps, but I reckon most Brits will find it easier to support both of them next year.

As far as predictions go then I've always rated LH higher than JB, so some loss of performance is inevitable for McLaren afaic. Serve them right lol. And with lovely Jenson being the main man I'm waiting to see the vaunted equality looking a but thin suddenly for Sergio...

#215 eronrules

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:19

now the question is ... will any team be able to find any silver bullet like Brawn found in 2009 next season??? no big rules change till 2014 and even that's debatable TBH. i feel most engines will be normalized by FIA, so it'll mostly come down to aero again. can button win regularly if his car is not 1 sec faster is the question here. i don't see him doing that. he had his chance and he maximized it in 2009, kudos to that.

#216 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:21

Well obviously that would validate our choice of driver, as it were, and also help Lewis' position in the wdc perhaps, but I reckon most Brits will find it easier to support both of them next year.

As far as predictions go then I've always rated LH higher than JB, so some loss of performance is inevitable for McLaren afaic. Serve them right lol. And with lovely Jenson being the main man I'm waiting to see the vaunted equality looking a but thin suddenly for Sergio...


I genuinely don't care how Button or McLaren do, as hard as that may seem. But what I am very interested in is this equality, I will be watching that with great interest.

#217 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:24

Sorry but that is bull crap , realisticly Red bull would of been hoping for Button to DNF to have any real chance of the WDC , Button still had a cusion of points to fall back on. Jenson was scoring points consistanly even if he was not in the thick of it and in a way buttoner right, he won the championship in brazil not abu duabi.


Okay, I'll leave it so. I believe Button pretty much fell over the line in 2009, a lot of people don't.

#218 thesham01

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:25

Of course they do, Jenson has shown Lewis up during their time together by not getting destroyed as they all assumed he would and they don't like it.


Have you been watching this year?

#219 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:33

Have you been watching this year?

Maybe its the races he was talking about sham. In Qualyfing Lewis has dominated him , simple as that really.

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#220 Watkins74

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:37

Maybe its the races he was talking about sham. In Qualyfing Lewis has dominated him , simple as that really.

You say that like qualifying is more important than the race.

#221 corf

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:46

Maybe its the races he was talking about sham. In Qualyfing Lewis has dominated him , simple as that really.


Qualifying doesn't really count for anything, no points, no prizes.

In their time together the number of race wins, podiums and points is far too close to be called destroyed. Both drivers have had blips during the three years yet we are nearing the end of season three and they are pretty equal on all the results that matter.

Hamilton's reputation has taken a bit of a dive during their time together and it must hurt the Hamilton fans.

#222 matzy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:49

Well, I am a fan of Lewis, and I wish Jenson nothing but the best for 2013. I was one of those expecting Lewis to make Jenson look very ordinary ... but he didn't and his stock went up as far as I am concerned.

Now I look at Jenson very differently. I don't look at him as the man that lucked into a championship due to a technical innovation. I look at him as a driver who could have achieved a lot more had he been wiser earlier on his his career, in hindsight. I still hold the opinion that, on a strict comparison, Lewis is the better driver, but it is a LOT closer than I would have ever imagined before they were team-mates.

Quite simply, if Mclaren can provide him a car capable of a realistic run for the WDC I think he can do it. The only thing I imagine will get in his way will be a certain Mr. Perez ... and I cannot predict how that will work out right now. I also have my doubts that Mclaren will be able to provide him with such a car for 2013, judging on the last couple of years.


#223 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:51

You say that like qualifying is more important than the race.

No i said QUALIFYING for a reason stop trying to spin it.

#224 sofarapartguy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:53

Well, I am a fan of Lewis, and I wish Jenson nothing but the best for 2013. I was one of those expecting Lewis to make Jenson look very ordinary ... but he didn't and his stock went up as far as I am concerned.

Now I look at Jenson very differently. I don't look at him as the man that lucked into a championship due to a technical innovation. I look at him as a driver who could have achieved a lot more had he been wiser earlier on his his career, in hindsight. I still hold the opinion that, on a strict comparison, Lewis is the better driver, but it is a LOT closer than I would have ever imagined before they were team-mates.

Quite simply, if Mclaren can provide him a car capable of a realistic run for the WDC I think he can do it. The only thing I imagine will get in his way will be a certain Mr. Perez ... and I cannot predict how that will work out right now. I also have my doubts that Mclaren will be able to provide him with such a car for 2013, judging on the last couple of years.


Finally :up:

People like you are gold today.

#225 tkulla

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:54

The funny thing about this thread is that for some reason many Hamilton fans want Button to fail in 2013. And they want Perez to beat him in qualifying and in points. Considering the Button/Hamilton battle will be essentially a draw (excuses aside - only points and wins matter) you'd think they'd want Button to look good in the future to validate their man. If Perez really does "destroy" Button then he has done what Lewis could not.

Anyway...

It's world-of-duh that Button can lead a team and win a championship, since he's already done it. He's also been "best of the rest" in years where there was one dominant car (don't forget that he finished ahead of Mark Webber last year).

Criticism of his 2009 championship is tedious at best and forgets some important facts:
1) Rubens was actually a very good F1 driver. He outqualified the Hulk and Maldanado (now regarded as a Q specialist) at Williams after his Honda years.
2) Brawn had no budget. Literally. They could not spend a dime to deal with the tyre-heating issue Button had, and their staff was cut so low there was nobody to work on it even if they did have money. Button was left to just "deal with it" and manage his way to the championship (which he did).
3) Other big teams had the double diffuser (Williams, Toyota) at the beginning of the year too.
4) Qualifying was trickier because you had to have race fuel in the car. So anyone wanting to go out an steal pole only had to plan for a short first stint to do so. Winning all those races was NOT easy.


As for his struggles this year, I'm sure McLaren feel just as responsible as Jenson. They pride themselves on being a data-driven team and had (have?) not successfully modeled the Pirelli tyres. Similar (and supposedly easier to work with) tyres and the data they've collected this year should make a recurrence of this problem highly unlikely.

#226 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:57

Qualifying doesn't really count for anything, no points, no prizes.

In their time together the number of race wins, podiums and points is far too close to be called destroyed. Both drivers have had blips during the three years yet we are nearing the end of season three and they are pretty equal on all the results that matter.

Hamilton's reputation has taken a bit of a dive during their time together and it must hurt the Hamilton fans.


FFS thats why i said qualifying corf, i pretty much agree with everything you said and his stock has fallen no doubt , but haters need to know that Lewis is consistantly faster, at the end of the day i don't solely look at stats its on track performances where i draw my conclusion.

#227 Watkins74

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:58

The funny thing about this thread is that for some reason many Hamilton fans want Button to fail in 2013. And they want Perez to beat him in qualifying and in points. Considering the Button/Hamilton battle will be essentially a draw (excuses aside - only points and wins matter) you'd think they'd want Button to look good in the future to validate their man. If Perez really does "destroy" Button then he has done what Lewis could not.

Anyway...

It's world-of-duh that Button can lead a team and win a championship, since he's already done it. He's also been "best of the rest" in years where there was one dominant car (don't forget that he finished ahead of Mark Webber last year).

Criticism of his 2009 championship is tedious at best and forgets some important facts:
1) Rubens was actually a very good F1 driver. He outqualified the Hulk and Maldanado (now regarded as a Q specialist) at Williams after his Honda years.
2) Brawn had no budget. Literally. They could not spend a dime to deal with the tyre-heating issue Button had, and their staff was cut so low there was nobody to work on it even if they did have money. Button was left to just "deal with it" and manage his way to the championship (which he did).
3) Other big teams had the double diffuser (Williams, Toyota) at the beginning of the year too.
4) Qualifying was trickier because you had to have race fuel in the car. So anyone wanting to go out an steal pole only had to plan for a short first stint to do so. Winning all those races was NOT easy.


As for his struggles this year, I'm sure McLaren feel just as responsible as Jenson. They pride themselves on being a data-driven team and had (have?) not successfully modeled the Pirelli tyres. Similar (and supposedly easier to work with) tyres and the data they've collected this year should make a recurrence of this problem highly unlikely.

:up: Nice post

#228 Watkins74

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:59

Qualifying doesn't really count for anything, no points, no prizes.

In their time together the number of race wins, podiums and points is far too close to be called destroyed. Both drivers have had blips during the three years yet we are nearing the end of season three and they are pretty equal on all the results that matter.

Hamilton's reputation has taken a bit of a dive during their time together and it must hurt the Hamilton fans.

:up: Spin free post.

#229 ayali

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:06

But what I am very interested in is this equality, I will be watching that with great interest.

There won't be any of that so move along there'll be nothing to see

Sergio is coming to what now is completely Button's team
The kid is young, unexperienced and will need to craft his skills.
I expect McLaren to do what they should have done in 2007 and let the youngster play 2nd fiddle to the more experienced team leader.
Let him learn from the leader, make mistakes and gain experience for a year (or 2).

If McLaren, Button and Sergio play this right I expect all of them to prosper :up:


#230 03011969

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:15

There won't be any of that so move along there'll be nothing to see

Sergio is coming to what now is completely Button's team
The kid is young, unexperienced and will need to craft his skills.
I expect McLaren to do what they should have done in 2007 and let the youngster play 2nd fiddle to the more experienced team leader.
Let him learn from the leader, make mistakes and gain experience for a year (or 2).

If McLaren, Button and Sergio play this right I expect all of them to prosper :up:

Why hold Perez back if he's performing?

Let them both go for it. Perez is not entirely inexperienced either - sure he has a lot to learn, but it's not like it's his first time in a single-seater.

And I think the idea of a team holding back a driver for a season is utterly fanciful anyway. I know some would like to make out the reason Rubens finished behind Michael almost every race was Ferrari telling him to hold back, but the reality is he was usually just slower. If Button is quicker, he will beat Perez, and if Perez is quicker he'll beat Button. Trying to artificially control things is just stupid...and what would being "made to play second fiddle" actually teach him, apart from an early resentment of Martin Whitmarsh! :)

#231 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:23

There won't be any of that so move along there'll be nothing to see

Sergio is coming to what now is completely Button's team
The kid is young, unexperienced and will need to craft his skills.
I expect McLaren to do what they should have done in 2007 and let the youngster play 2nd fiddle to the more experienced team leader.
Let him learn from the leader, make mistakes and gain experience for a year (or 2).

If McLaren, Button and Sergio play this right I expect all of them to prosper :up:


Then you are in for a rude shock, McLaren puts itself first, not its drivers, they will give both drivers the same treatment. McLaren have never ran a 'No.1/No.2' driver status - not even for Senna. Both will get an equal crack of the whip - it may be possible that due to the public perception that Button gets better treatment, McLaren may be wiser in how it represents itself in future too with respect to how it handles its drivers. Perez seems to be quite outspoken, if he is not happy, he will most likely say so - not play the team game and just get on with it.

Button may/may not be liked more by the team, but once the red lights go out - he will be racing Perez just as much as he is racing everyone else. Just how it should be.



#232 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:30

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.


oi, not all of us! I am huge fan of Lewis and Jenson :) I hope both do great next year!

#233 ayali

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:38

Why hold Perez back if he's performing?

It won't need to be as blatant as "to hold back"
Just establish a clear leader in the team who has preference for example when to pit, whose opinion will be leading in which direction car development will go over Sergio.
I expect Sergio to for example test new parts or do a comparison in FP while Jenson works on his set-up.

Next year McLaren have the perfect situation to establish a #1 and #1.1 driver situation
It would benefit the team and both drivers in the end imo

#234 WitnessX

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:40

Then you are in for a rude shock, McLaren puts itself first, not its drivers, they will give both drivers the same treatment. McLaren have never ran a 'No.1/No.2' driver status - not even for Senna. Both will get an equal crack of the whip - it may be possible that due to the public perception that Button gets better treatment, McLaren may be wiser in how it represents itself in future too with respect to how it handles its drivers. Perez seems to be quite outspoken, if he is not happy, he will most likely say so - not play the team game and just get on with it.

Button may/may not be liked more by the team, but once the red lights go out - he will be racing Perez just as much as he is racing everyone else. Just how it should be.

Link: <Heikki Kovalainen has a slightly different viewpoint >

Perhaps its a case of “All drivers are equal but some are more equal than others…” (apologies to George Orwell)

#235 MP422

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 13:57

Button Hamilton equal over three years ??? No way ! and qualifiying does matter ! Just look at Buttons season. Duh

#236 Lazy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:04

Then you are in for a rude shock, McLaren puts itself first, not its drivers, they will give both drivers the same treatment. McLaren have never ran a 'No.1/No.2' driver status - not even for Senna. Both will get an equal crack of the whip - it may be possible that due to the public perception that Button gets better treatment, McLaren may be wiser in how it represents itself in future too with respect to how it handles its drivers. Perez seems to be quite outspoken, if he is not happy, he will most likely say so - not play the team game and just get on with it.

Button may/may not be liked more by the team, but once the red lights go out - he will be racing Perez just as much as he is racing everyone else. Just how it should be.


He's right.

McLaren would probably be 1/2 wdc's up and 2/3 wcc's up. Plus Hamilton would be a more rounded individual.

If McLaren puts itself 1st that's what it should have done and should do.

#237 Sinceref189

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:10

Then you are in for a rude shock, McLaren puts itself first, not its drivers, they will give both drivers the same treatment. McLaren have never ran a 'No.1/No.2' driver status - not even for Senna. Both will get an equal crack of the whip - it may be possible that due to the public perception that Button gets better treatment, McLaren may be wiser in how it represents itself in future too with respect to how it handles its drivers. Perez seems to be quite outspoken, if he is not happy, he will most likely say so - not play the team game and just get on with it.

Button may/may not be liked more by the team, but once the red lights go out - he will be racing Perez just as much as he is racing everyone else. Just how it should be.

:up: :up:

#238 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:11

Did they win the first 6 of 7 races, and were then beaten by their team-mate in the last 10 races? If not then you can't compare.

My characterisation is: He won the title after struggling to find any real form in the second half of the season, and would have been in real danger of losing the title had it not been for Red Bull making a huge blunder in Brazil qualy.

Buttoner's: He wrapped up the championship well before the end.

If you honestly believe the latter to be 'far more' accurate, there is nothing I can do to persuade you, so we will leave it there.

Please don't misrepresent where you came in by putting something else in its place. Here's our original sentences on the point;

He then stayed with the team through difficult years and the 2009 Brawn switch to make the very best of the opportunities given to him, wrapping the championship up well before the end of the year.

He fell over the line thanks to a Red Bull strategy error in Brazil qualy.

I could similarly characterise at least three recent WDC wins in similarly negative terms if I wanted to but I have too much respect for the drivers and team personnel to do that. None of it anyway detracts from the point that the championship was won ahead of the last corner, the last lap, the last race, the last qualifying.

Since you have put forward your own characterisation redux would you accept my humble rewording to "...wrapping the championship up in the penultimate race"? It never was about trying to sell up the circumstances, just what happened. I'm not even sure why it was so offensive that attributing the negativity felt necessary.

This can still only let us have a slightly more educated guess at what might happen if similar circumstances came around again and my knowledge and understanding of Button tells me that he has held it together and could hold it together to win another championship, and that the Brawn technical dominance is sold up far more than it should be.

#239 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:30

Link: <Heikki Kovalainen has a slightly different viewpoint >

Perhaps its a case of “All drivers are equal but some are more equal than others…” (apologies to George Orwell)


This was 2009 however, quite an odd year in anyones books for McLaren where they were rushing parts to the car. The complaint here was that Hamliton was getting the parts first all the time, and that Kova was doing the heavy fuel running - I would suggest that splitting their programs in this way this was more a sign of the times that year than an overall trend within McLaren.

Unless McLaren produce another pig of a car (unlikely) and are left half the year in still scratching their heads as to why the car doesn't work (again unlikely) then I doubt we will see this sort of behaviour from them again.

I will stick to my original point that they will give both drivers the same treatment (good or bad) and that next year for the reasons I have listed will be a poor year.





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#240 Fallout

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:37

Please don't misrepresent where you came in by putting something else in its place. Here's our original sentences on the point;


I could similarly characterise at least three recent WDC wins in similarly negative terms if I wanted to but I have too much respect for the drivers and team personnel to do that. None of it anyway detracts from the point that the championship was won ahead of the last corner, the last lap, the last race, the last qualifying.

Since you have put forward your own characterisation redux would you accept my humble rewording to "...wrapping the championship up in the penultimate race"? It never was about trying to sell up the circumstances, just what happened. I'm not even sure why it was so offensive that attributing the negativity felt necessary.

This can still only let us have a slightly more educated guess at what might happen if similar circumstances came around again and my knowledge and understanding of Button tells me that he has held it together and could hold it together to win another championship, and that the Brawn technical dominance is sold up far more than it should be.


Great point. No one, not even Vettel or Alonso despite their multiple championship could claim that they won their titles solely due to driving faultless the entire year.

Edited by Fallout, 12 October 2012 - 14:38.


#241 Burtros

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:39

So basically the Lewis fans want Jenson to fail next year. We get it.


This. Some are not even shy about it. I look at it as a credit to the work Jenson has done - Hamilton fans would give a flying crap if Lewis had destroyed him. Their attitude to him is actually giving away a lot more than they realise:)

I'll re-itterate my point from yesterday. McLaren and Jenson are not as far away from a WDC as many would have you believe. If you want to know why I think that, go back and look instead of arguing about one half of 2009.



#242 SunnyENTP

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:55

You say that like qualifying is more important than the race.



This year it is... last year Button could qualify 8th and easily come 2nd. Very little opposition just 2 teams battling for the top spot. If it was this close last year Button would have struggled.

#243 BigCHrome

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:30

Short answer - no, he won't lead them anywhere.

Long answer - In the extremely unlikely event that they create a car that has a profound speed advantage over the rest of the grid, then yes he might be able to win it.

#244 corf

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:44

Button Hamilton equal over three years ??? No way ! and qualifiying does matter ! Just look at Buttons season. Duh



So how have they not been pretty much equal? They have similar wins, podiums and points?

Qualifying doesn't matter, position after lap 1 doesn't matter, position after lap 5 doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the position at the end of the race where the prizes and points are dished out.

#245 corf

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:47

This year it is...


LOL, Qualifying has never ever been more important than the race. While it aids a good race finish that's all it does.

Edited by corf, 12 October 2012 - 15:48.


#246 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 16:06

This. Some are not even shy about it. I look at it as a credit to the work Jenson has done - Hamilton fans would give a flying crap if Lewis had destroyed him. Their attitude to him is actually giving away a lot more than they realise:)

I'll re-itterate my point from yesterday. McLaren and Jenson are not as far away from a WDC as many would have you believe. If you want to know why I think that, go back and look instead of arguing about one half of 2009.


Not really sure what any of this has to do with Hamliton - the title of the thread is Jenson Button and McLaren 2013. I for one consider myself a McLaren fan first - drivers second. As someone who likes Lewis Hamliton, I am quite pleased he is getting away from Button and the driver politics which seems to dog McLaren at the moment and it is going to be interested to see how he gets on next year - but that is a different subject to this thread and should be spoken about elsewhere. As a McLaren fan however (and the thread is about McLaren as well as Button), I am bloody annoyed at the idea of McLaren being reduced to an also ran next year and the prospect of having to watch both car under perform for various reasons.

This is not all about Button, McLaren next year will have two drivers, the other being an almost unknown quanity - he could just as easily end up putting cars into the wall as he could doing well - this will hurt McLaren who for the past few years have had two solid points scorers to rely on. Then there is McLaren and its Keystone Kops routines every other race - there is almost no reason to believe this will improve next year and it could hurt Perez far more than either of this years drivers. Lastly there is Button who while solid is not top draw and has a very narrow set up window, when this bites him, he doesn't just drop back a few places - he falls completely out of the points due to poor qualifying positions. Other than 2009 (which many have pointed out was due to a series of special curcumstances) does not have a stellar history and is not someone who the team can completely rely on to bring home a championship.

It's McLaren that is the focus here - not the drivers - and right now, it doesn't matter which way you spin it - its not looking like they will be getting any championships next year unless something radical happens.

Its got nothing to do with Lewis Hamliton - so lets leave him out of it.



#247 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 16:58

Jenson must be slightly worried at the woes Hamilton has faced this season with team errors and setup mistakes. Looking at how the car behaved between practice sessions today and the team apparently baffled by it all is not something I would like to hear being Jenson. I don't believe the team are doing it on purpose for a single second and these types of issue have surfaced regularly since Jenson joined anyway. Things just seem to get worse at McLaren of late. :well:

#248 stevesingo

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 18:00

Great point. No one, not even Vettel or Alonso despite their multiple championship could claim that they won their titles solely due to driving faultless the entire year.



Or probably more specifically, with the opposition driving a faultless year.


#249 Burtros

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 21:07

Not really sure what any of this has to do with Hamliton - the title of the thread is Jenson Button and McLaren 2013. I for one consider myself a McLaren fan first - drivers second. As someone who likes Lewis Hamliton, I am quite pleased he is getting away from Button and the driver politics which seems to dog McLaren at the moment and it is going to be interested to see how he gets on next year - but that is a different subject to this thread and should be spoken about elsewhere. As a McLaren fan however (and the thread is about McLaren as well as Button), I am bloody annoyed at the idea of McLaren being reduced to an also ran next year and the prospect of having to watch both car under perform for various reasons.

This is not all about Button, McLaren next year will have two drivers, the other being an almost unknown quanity - he could just as easily end up putting cars into the wall as he could doing well - this will hurt McLaren who for the past few years have had two solid points scorers to rely on. Then there is McLaren and its Keystone Kops routines every other race - there is almost no reason to believe this will improve next year and it could hurt Perez far more than either of this years drivers. Lastly there is Button who while solid is not top draw and has a very narrow set up window, when this bites him, he doesn't just drop back a few places - he falls completely out of the points due to poor qualifying positions. Other than 2009 (which many have pointed out was due to a series of special curcumstances) does not have a stellar history and is not someone who the team can completely rely on to bring home a championship.

It's McLaren that is the focus here - not the drivers - and right now, it doesn't matter which way you spin it - its not looking like they will be getting any championships next year unless something radical happens.

Its got nothing to do with Lewis Hamliton - so lets leave him out of it.


My post doesnt have anything to do with Lewis Hamilton specifically if you think about it. It was an observation that many of those who are predicting doom just so happen to be Lewis fans.

As for your observations about Jenson, Perez and McLaren. I disagree for a few reasons.
1) Perez is not an 'unknown quantity'. He'll have done 2 years in the midfield and 40 races by the time he steps into a McLaren. I see no reason to say at this stage to doubt his ability to avoid mistakes and bring home some good points. Agreed its not like having a Hamilton in the team right away though. Points will be dropped.
2) on one hand you talk about Lewis moving on and the clearing of the politics you think has dogged the team for a few years. On the other, you say you see no reason for the slip ups this year to change. You gave a possible reason in the same post - a happier team free of whatever it was surrounds the Hamilton relationship may well rejuvinate. And thats just an example of a reason - Im not saying it will happen - lets be clear. I fully agree McLaren absolutley have to sort out some of their own house a hell of a lot - but I dont see 'no reason to believe they will improve'. They will know this flaw, they will work on it. Its a question of if they can improve.
3) Button doesnt completely fall out of the points positions when he struggles - that appears to be based on a few races earlier this year. Hes incredibly consistent for the most part with very very few driver errors. I agree he has to improve for next year - qualifying must get better for a start. Should Jenson discover the form he had back end of 2011 then in 2013 he is more than capable of sustaining a title challenge.

Its clear they will both have to improve, but in my opinion they are not as dead and burried as you seem to think.

Edited by Burtros, 12 October 2012 - 21:08.


#250 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 21:40

My post doesnt have anything to do with Lewis Hamilton specifically if you think about it. It was an observation that many of those who are predicting doom just so happen to be Lewis fans.

As for your observations about Jenson, Perez and McLaren. I disagree for a few reasons.
1) Perez is not an 'unknown quantity'. He'll have done 2 years in the midfield and 40 races by the time he steps into a McLaren. I see no reason to say at this stage to doubt his ability to avoid mistakes and bring home some good points. Agreed its not like having a Hamilton in the team right away though. Points will be dropped.
2) on one hand you talk about Lewis moving on and the clearing of the politics you think has dogged the team for a few years. On the other, you say you see no reason for the slip ups this year to change. You gave a possible reason in the same post - a happier team free of whatever it was surrounds the Hamilton relationship may well rejuvinate. And thats just an example of a reason - Im not saying it will happen - lets be clear. I fully agree McLaren absolutley have to sort out some of their own house a hell of a lot - but I dont see 'no reason to believe they will improve'. They will know this flaw, they will work on it. Its a question of if they can improve.
3) Button doesnt completely fall out of the points positions when he struggles - that appears to be based on a few races earlier this year. Hes incredibly consistent for the most part with very very few driver errors. I agree he has to improve for next year - qualifying must get better for a start. Should Jenson discover the form he had back end of 2011 then in 2013 he is more than capable of sustaining a title challenge.

Its clear they will both have to improve, but in my opinion they are not as dead and burried as you seem to think.


It's a viewpoint, and quite possibly a rather dark one - but like a number of McLaren fans, I am far from happy with the past few years and very depressed that McLaren have let one of the fastest most exciting drivers on the grid walk away. A lot of people (myself included) see a trend which is all likelyhood could quite easily get a lot worse next year.

No one knows if Perez's speed is the Sauber (a good car) or him. A lot of people post here that he is smooth etc and good with his tires - yet in car footage shows a style closer to Hamlitons than Buttons. Putting him in a McLaren is an unknown - no two F1 cars or teams are the same - he could transform into a rocket, or a clown.

There is zero reason to expect the McLaren operational problems to go away - they have nothing to do with Lewis Hamliton being part of the team - if anything his raw speed allowed the team to recover from some of their dropped balls - a feature which may be missing next year. McLaren has been a joke for a few years now - its not changing...

Button has fallen out of the points due to poor qualifying every year he has been at McLaren at one time or another - he had a good run at the tail end of last year and this has knocked his points tally up - but he has also had horrific downs. While we shouldn't ignore his good results - we shouldn't also white wash his bad ones. I made the point a while ago, a champion needs to either not finish a race or bring home points - Button does not fit into this bracket - his 'happy' window is too narrow and McLaren are yet to build a car for all seasons that will suit every track meaning that even if he does not lose his way on set up again - there will be races when he just cannot get the car where he wants it.

Like it or not - there is huge disapointment in McLaren for many reasons right now - even if Button does great next year - Perez is going to have to perform far far better than he has been seen to do in order for a WCC to sit at McLaren at the end of next year. If McLaren (which they won't) put everything behind Button from day 1 - there is a slim chance he could challenge for a WDC but against Alonso or Vettel with complete support from their respective teams/team-mates and good cars I do not give him a cat in hells chance.

Also, those writing of Mercedes next year need to be careful, an awful lot of good people have been quietly going into that team for the past 12 months, their budgets are up and this years car isn't half as bad as it has been painted, with a happy Hamliton sitting in it - he could be right up there.

As a McLaren fan its just depressing...