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Jenson Button and Mclaren 2013 onwards


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#301 thesham01

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:56

Of course some are not 100% his fault (although Canada is IMO) but he has to take a portion of the blame for them.

Jenson is more than able, Lewis clearly can't, he's jumping ship. It interesting that Mclaren have got better season by season since JB joined, they're were regressing between 2007 - 2009 when Lewis was leading the team but have moved closer to the front since 2010 when Jenson joined. Those are the cold hard facts. ;)


That might actually be a fair point, if were not for the fact Hamilton has performed better in 2 of the 3 seasons. If what you are saying is true, and Button has somehow made the McLaren team more intelligent and creative, then what good is it if you can't drive well enough on track?

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#302 MP422

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:00

China 2007
Bahrain 2008
Canada 2008
France 2008
Japan 2008
Italy 2009
Italy 2010
Singapore 2010
Malaysia 2011
Monaco 2011
Canada 2011
Belgium 2011
Singapore 2011
Valencia 2012

Points he's thrown away. Thats a balls up every 7 and a half races.


C'mon really !!!

Monza 2009. That was awesome i will never hold that against Hamilton.

Canada 2011 and Valencia 2012.... No....

Monaco 2011 scored in the points :drunk:

#303 bub

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:06

It interesting that Mclaren have got better season by season since JB joined, they're were regressing between 2007 - 2009 when Lewis was leading the team but have moved closer to the front since 2010 when Jenson joined. Those are the cold hard facts. ;)


They won a championship when Lewis was leading the team and very nearly won one in 2007. Since JB joined they've been less successful, that's another interesting fact  ;)

#304 Atreiu

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:10

You guys are making this too complicated and ugly. Its simple:
Does JB have the leadership?
Does he have the raw speed necessary for above expectations results?
Does he have the consistency?
Does he have the team ethics necessary to lead Mclaren and help Perez fit into the team?
Can he do the PR stuff?

And so on.

Hamilton will no longer be a part of the equation. Wy is he being brought to this?

#305 SunnyENTP

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:17

I don't see much wrong with it. JB's consistant points collecting certainly makes up for any speed deficiency vs LH occassionally getting himself involved in trouble and throwing away good points (mainly in 2011). As for challenging for a WDC, this season has been the only real chance, and McLaren dropped the ball as well as JB.

Will Perez run JB close? Not over the season. In a way I feel a tad sorry for Perez as all we have heard from Whitmarsh is nonense about 'developability', 'growing', 'honing'..... the poor guy will be suffocated if they're not careful to let him be himself.





Perez would flop at McLaren as I feel his personality wont be suited to such a sterile team. Also, they should have got Kobayashi, who is faster and would be better at the front of the grid unlike Perez who is reckless and slower in qualification. What made Perez standout where his lucky strategy calls by staying out long on fresh tyres since he was not good enough to make Q3. He wont have that luxury at McLaren. I noted that his first 6 races where he made it to Q3 he did not score a single point.

Perez also wont have the luxury of being the underdog in a mid field car, I think when the heat is on he would make mistakes. We have already seen that a good number of times. Button to trash and smash him in the head to head races him leaving many wondering why all the adulation.



#306 thesham01

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:52

Perez would flop at McLaren as I feel his personality wont be suited to such a sterile team. Also, they should have got Kobayashi, who is faster and would be better at the front of the grid unlike Perez who is reckless and slower in qualification. What made Perez standout where his lucky strategy calls by staying out long on fresh tyres since he was not good enough to make Q3. He wont have that luxury at McLaren. I noted that his first 6 races where he made it to Q3 he did not score a single point.

Perez also wont have the luxury of being the underdog in a mid field car, I think when the heat is on he would make mistakes. We have already seen that a good number of times. Button to trash and smash him in the head to head races him leaving many wondering why all the adulation.


If you are right, then McLaren are in big trouble.

#307 Nahnever

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:13

Of course some are not 100% his fault (although Canada is IMO) but he has to take a portion of the blame for them.

Jenson is more than able, Lewis clearly can't, he's jumping ship. It interesting that Mclaren have got better season by season since JB joined, they're were regressing between 2007 - 2009 when Lewis was leading the team but have moved closer to the front since 2010 when Jenson joined. Those are the cold hard facts. ;)

How can they be regressing in 2007/8 if they barely just lost out on the championship through a DNF (won but stripped of constructors) in the first and won the championship in the latter? :confused:

#308 weareracing

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:16

We can none of us claim to see what the future (2013 and beyond) holds, other than to base our opinions on the data we already have (present & past).
I think the biggest difficulty Jenson will face will be in qualifying.
Without delving into the stats I think I'm right that he has just the one pole to his name whilst driving for McLaren.
If this continues to be the case then I cannot see Jenson leading EITHER a WDC or WCC challenge, the other leading driver/team combinations would seem too strong to reel in consistently on raceday.


#309 thesham01

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:37

How likely do people think Mercedes will be right next to McLaren in the WCC next year?

I mean between Rosberg and Schumi this year they would more than likely have had 2 wins (presuming Schumi had no penalty in Monaco), and Rosberg was keeping up points wise with the leaders for a 6 race run at the start of the season. Its a big if to say Hamilton would have out-done both Rosberg and Schumi, but there is a strong chance that is the case.

Add to that Hamiltons 2-4 tenths qualy advantage over Button means all Mercedes have to do is get a car within 2-4 tenths, and suddenly Mercedes are right there in the mix with McLaren.

#310 glorius&victorius

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:39

Jenson and McLaren from 2013 onwards?

average qualifying position: 8 (wait and see)

Edited by glorius&victorius, 13 October 2012 - 19:39.


#311 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:46

C'mon really !!!

Monza 2009. That was awesome i will never hold that against Hamilton.

Canada 2011 and Valencia 2012.... No....

Monaco 2011 scored in the points :drunk:

Please don't tell me you are trying to defend that. Please don't.

The others are fair enough, but Monaco 2011 might just have been the worst drive of Lewis's career.

#312 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:53

Please don't tell me you are trying to defend that. Please don't.

The others are fair enough, but Monaco 2011 might just have been the worst drive of Lewis's career.

Lol, nonsense. He got the first penalty because after absurdly closing the line but driving away Massa then fell off in the tunnel, and the second one because the stewards couldn't see that Lewis' move was identical to the splendid pass on Schumi.


#313 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:54

Please don't tell me you are trying to defend that. Please don't.

The others are fair enough, but Monaco 2011 might just have been the worst drive of Lewis's career.




I don't think it was imo the worst race was Suzuka 2011, where not only did he have no pace, but his team mate went on to win, outpacing him vastly.

Monaco he went down the inside of Massa, who turned in so early he clipped and broke a piece of Mark Webber's wing, only scuffed the sidepod and than got a drivethrough.

Tried to do the same move on Maldonado that worked on Schumacher on lap 11, but as we know Mal is Mal, and turned in regardless ruining his own race.



#314 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:02

let me put it the way that'd show why some of us serious F1 fans (general, not biased) think mclaren might (only a probability) be in trouble in 2013 ...

this whole weekend, mclaren drivers struggled with lock ups and the car seemed too stiff and unresponsive in the final sector. now, baring in mind lewis's friday frustrations, he managed to wrestle the car and got a decent grid position. this is where button isn't a shining example, we all know the operating window of button is very narrow, he can't hassle the car in the same way alonso and hamilton does. that's the issue mclaren will face in 2013, the car will not behave the same way in every circuit, some will suit jenson than the others, so what'll happen to those circuits??? a driver has to perform consistently at every circuit at every ambient condition at every grip level. i don't see such a driver in jenson(he's a damn good driver non the less when all is within +/-1% of his liking)

perez is another quantity, if you've seen his on board, he isn't the smoothest of driver in quali, he jabs the steering too much in his sauber and his quali record against kamui isn't exemplary. mclaren have lost a known out-qualifier of the car's ability in lewis. only 3 driver in current F1 can do that, others being alonso and vettel (and i'm a kimi fan ...).

so what's gonna happen in 2013??? can perez replace the role of hamilton at giving the team a alternate perspective into how far the car can be pushed without the smoothest driving style???? if for example jenson had the damper trouble that happened to hamilton in suzuka, would he have driven like hamilton (compensating for bad handling) and scored 5th position??? who knows ...

another thing that people don't realize is that although a driver has some input into a car's development, it's not as much as people assume it is. a driver doesn't design suspension/gearbox/aero etc etc etc. in fact if we look at Lotus E20, none of the drivers had any input into the design, yet the car is competitive, the drivers have a say during in season development regarding oversteer/understeer or ride height or suspension stiffness ... that's about it. so whatever 2013 car mclaren produces, it wouldn't have much to do with what lewis/jenson have told the engineers, engineers don't work that way. they'll make a fast car regardless what drivers say, it's drivers job to driver the bolts of the car.

#315 BigCHrome

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:04

The difference was that Kimi hadn't driven 38 races. Sergio is no rookie no matter how you look at it. To prove he is the real deal he will need to perform as well as Seb in 2009 when he joined Red bull. Seb was even less experienced than Perez when he joined. So if Sergio isn't matching Jenson then Mclaren will have an issue.

Jenson shouldn't have to lead the team from a driver perspective. The only thing he should have in his favour is maturity and knowing the team.


Seb was less experienced?? What the hell??? He's been driving F1 cars since 2006 FFS.

#316 ayali

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:05

Yawn there's me thinking this thread was about Jenson Button and McLaren in 2013
But alas the usual suspects can't help themselves and have to discuss Hamilton here, again pfff

#317 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:10

I don't think it was imo the worst race was Suzuka 2011, where not only did he have no pace, but his team mate went on to win, outpacing him vastly.

Monaco he went down the inside of Massa, who turned in so early he clipped and broke a piece of Mark Webber's wing, only scuffed the sidepod and than got a drivethrough.

Tried to do the same move on Maldonado that worked on Schumacher on lap 11, but as we know Mal is Mal, and turned in regardless ruining his own race.

I don't want to get into a discussion about this here. But I respect Lewis a lot, and he lost a lot of people's respect that day.
That move worked on Schumi because he was experienced enough to yield. Maldonado is crazy, and that we definitely Lewis's fault though.

As for the Massa incident, I don't really understand what Lewis was doing sticking his car up the inside at Loew's hairpin, when there was no way he was going to make the corner with that line without hitting anyone.

But whatever. Today's Quali showed that if Hamilton wasn't there, the perception of McLaren would be a little different. I think Sergio might be a revelation but you see how Lewis managed to get ahead of Alonso one of McLaren's main rivals. I don't think the McLaren was faster than the Ferrari this morning, but he managed to take both of them. That was impressive. Next year, McLaren might need that.

#318 D.M.N.

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:17

If you wish to go into detail about an incident that Button has been involved in in the past, create a new thread for it. Keep this thread for Button in 2013 please and how well he can lead McLaren. Thanks.

#319 thesham01

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:20

Yawn there's me thinking this thread was about Jenson Button and McLaren in 2013
But alas the usual suspects can't help themselves and have to discuss Hamilton here, again pfff


You may be right, but can you think of a better way to discuss Button and McLarens future? Hamilton is the common denominator between McLaren and Button.

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#320 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:20

I don't want to get into a discussion about this here. But I respect Lewis a lot, and he lost a lot of people's respect that day.
That move worked on Schumi because he was experienced enough to yield. Maldonado is crazy, and that we definitely Lewis's fault though.

As for the Massa incident, I don't really understand what Lewis was doing sticking his car up the inside at Loew's hairpin, when there was no way he was going to make the corner with that line without hitting anyone.

But whatever. Today's Quali showed that if Hamilton wasn't there, the perception of McLaren would be a little different. I think Sergio might be a revelation but you see how Lewis managed to get ahead of Alonso one of McLaren's main rivals. I don't think the McLaren was faster than the Ferrari this morning, but he managed to take both of them. That was impressive. Next year, McLaren might need that.


I agree about not getting in a discussion, so I'll leave it as I respectfully disagree (a lot).

#321 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:23

Yawn there's me thinking this thread was about Jenson Button and McLaren in 2013
But alas the usual suspects can't help themselves and have to discuss Hamilton here, again pfff


so far we can measure button only against Hamilton's performance as we don't know what perez can do in mclaren, heck we're not sure what perez can do in Sauber in terms of pure pace because so far, all of his podiums have come as a result of some oddball strategies and weather condition (not disregarding his race-craft, it is superb) compared to kamui's. so as i said, if u talk about button and 2013 onward .... lewis will always dominate the matter as button is seemingly assuming his place.

#322 P123

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:27

Jenson is more than able, Lewis clearly can't, he's jumping ship. It interesting that Mclaren have got better season by season since JB joined, they're were regressing between 2007 - 2009 when Lewis was leading the team but have moved closer to the front since 2010 when Jenson joined. Those are the cold hard facts. ;)


Erm, McLaren were further away from the front in 2011 than they were in 2010... besides, their constructors placings have been a fairly static 2(DQ), 2, 3, 2, 2, 2 (to be decided).

#323 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:40

I don't want to get into a discussion about this here. But I respect Lewis a lot, and he lost a lot of people's respect that day.
That move worked on Schumi because he was experienced enough to yield. Maldonado is crazy, and that we definitely Lewis's fault though.

As for the Massa incident, I don't really understand what Lewis was doing sticking his car up the inside at Loew's hairpin, when there was no way he was going to make the corner with that line without hitting anyone.

But whatever. Today's Quali showed that if Hamilton wasn't there, the perception of McLaren would be a little different. I think Sergio might be a revelation but you see how Lewis managed to get ahead of Alonso one of McLaren's main rivals. I don't think the McLaren was faster than the Ferrari this morning, but he managed to take both of them. That was impressive. Next year, McLaren might need that.

Oh sure, you want to make a contentious comment and have no-one disagree with you. Nice. Then you want to end the discussion having the last word. Great.

Monaco 2011 was beautifully driven, but Lewis overestimated Massa and Malvolio. Compare Schumi on Lewis at the hairpin and Lewis on Schumi at St Devote. Class. The stewards were idiots, or biased. McLaren are really going to miss that race driving next year; it's going to be a shock.

#324 ayali

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:41

Oh sure, you want to make a contentious comment and have no-one disagree with you. Nice. Then you want to end the discussion having the last word. Great.

Monaco 2011 was beautifully driven, but Lewis overestimated Massa and Malvolio. Compare Schumi on Lewis at the hairpin and Lewis on Schumi at St Devote. Class. The stewards were idiots, or biased. McLaren are really going to miss that race driving next year; it's going to be a shock.

sigh...........

#325 SunnyENTP

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:57

Yep another Lewis vs Button thread - :down:

#326 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:06

Oh sure, you want to make a contentious comment and have no-one disagree with you. Nice. Then you want to end the discussion having the last word. Great.

Monaco 2011 was beautifully driven, but Lewis overestimated Massa and Malvolio. Compare Schumi on Lewis at the hairpin and Lewis on Schumi at St Devote. Class. The stewards were idiots, or biased. McLaren are really going to miss that race driving next year; it's going to be a shock.


I think what many forget is despitethe bad luck in qualifying which cost him a shot a realistic time, the 15 second McLaren pit stop that put him behind Massa, Alguesuari destroying his rear wing, and even two drive through penalties he still finished sixth having started ninth, which in any other Monaco race would have been considered a big success.

#327 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:49

^ can I just ask, are there JB fans in the Hamilton to Mercedes thread praying for failure and picking on irrelevant Button incidents from years ago? Just wondering...

#328 techspeed

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:57

Oh sure, you want to make a contentious comment and have no-one disagree with you. Nice. Then you want to end the discussion having the last word. Great.

Monaco 2011 was beautifully driven, but Lewis overestimated Massa and Malvolio. Compare Schumi on Lewis at the hairpin and Lewis on Schumi at St Devote. Class. The stewards were idiots, or biased. McLaren are really going to miss that race driving next year; it's going to be a shock.

So what's that got to do with Button and McLaren in 2013? The thread you want is here
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=141477

#329 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:01

^ can I just ask, are there JB fans in the Hamilton to Mercedes thread praying for failure and picking on irrelevant Button incidents from years ago? Just wondering...


I'm sure there were a few posts,

Clearly this is just an extension of conversation that has slowly gone off topic, if you were to retrace the posts, it would no doubt be ontopic with the context of the thread.

#330 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:03

It seems that nobody want to discuss the topic despite a request to do so on the previous page.

Thread closed.