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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#1 Wiggy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:48

Various news sources:

https://www.google.c...mp;channel=fflb

Looks like if they can secure a WTCC championship, F1 could be the next step.

The f1 quitting was obviously a PR move at the time, to grab some headlines after all the job cuts. Especially as they continued to fund Brawn in 2009.

Even if they returned as an engine supplier, rather than constructor, this would be good. Mugen-Honda perhaps?



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#2 Risil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 21:53

Rumours are also swirling that Honda are on the verge of pulling out of MotoGP (if you can't quit while you're ahead, quit while you're behind). Worrying times.

What happened to their proposed WEC entry?

Edited by Risil, 10 October 2012 - 21:53.


#3 Woody3says

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:14

It needs to be kept in context. This was a personal opinion given, not a board certified stand. I think they are interested but still, don't jump to conclusion too fast.

#4 hotstickyslick

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:24

Rumours are also swirling that Honda are on the verge of pulling out of MotoGP (if you can't quit while you're ahead, quit while you're behind). Worrying times.

What happened to their proposed WEC entry?

Honda aren't pulling out of MotoGP.

#5 wingwalker

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:24

The f1 quitting was obviously a PR move at the time, to grab some headlines after all the job cuts. Especially as they continued to fund Brawn in 2009.






They have? They haven't even supplied the engine.


Also, I don't think it was a PR move, it was a bad time for economy in general and Honda was pumping hundreds of millions of dollar in it's F1 Team without a success that could justify that. 2007 and 2008 were disastrous years, they were being close to being challenged by their B team, Super Aguri. And then their next 'take me for $1 with the team' car blew the entire grid away.

Edited by wingwalker, 10 October 2012 - 22:25.


#6 repcobrabham

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:29

was honda's withdrawal from F1 the worst timed decision in corporate sport history? i know it's easy to say in hindsight. i wonder if brawn tried to or was able to explain the double diffuser possibilities to them beforehand.

#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:30

It needs to be kept in context. This was a personal opinion given, not a board certified stand. I think they are interested but still, don't jump to conclusion too fast.


I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed the first quote is "Speaking only for myself..."

#8 Risil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:31

Honda aren't pulling out of MotoGP.


Few of the pundits appear to share your confidence, sadly.

#9 wingwalker

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 22:35

was honda's withdrawal from F1 the worst timed decision in corporate sport history? i know it's easy to say in hindsight. i wonder if brawn tried to or was able to explain the double diffuser possibilities to them beforehand.



I'm sure he tried. I remember him saying 'we have an race winning car' in the winter season, when the car wasn't even run yet. At the time I read that as "hey sponsors, buy that team" phrase and nothing else, but in hindsight he definitely knew they were up to something special with (was was later known to be) BGP 001.

#10 Atreiu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:01

Right now, I would not bet on Honda eating humple pie and staying in a rev limited spec ECU MotoGP.

#11 ratmac

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 23:49

was honda's withdrawal from F1 the worst timed decision in corporate sport history? i know it's easy to say in hindsight. i wonder if brawn tried to or was able to explain the double diffuser possibilities to them beforehand.


who thinks the 2009 brawn honda would be slower than the actual 2009 brawn mercedes? as far as i recall the 2000 to 2009 honda engines were never among the the best. if anything they were at the bottom of the food chain.


#12 George Costanza

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:18

who thinks the 2009 brawn honda would be slower than the actual 2009 brawn mercedes? as far as i recall the 2000 to 2009 honda engines were never among the the best. if anything they were at the bottom of the food chain.



Honda produced some great engines for 2000-2005 seasons as a V10. I think when they switched to V8, they declined a bit.



#13 Callisto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:46

I'm sure the Mercedes engine was a great help in 09,I think the DD and out wash front wing were the biggest contribution(IMO)

#14 SPBHM

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 00:49

who thinks the 2009 brawn honda would be slower than the actual 2009 brawn mercedes? as far as i recall the 2000 to 2009 honda engines were never among the the best. if anything they were at the bottom of the food chain.


at the beginning of the season their aero advantage was far to big, I think they could dominate with a weaker engine, also, they would have more money to develop the car during the season, so I think Honda would have won the 2009 title.

#15 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:08

Mclaren-Honda/Lotus-Honda :cool:

#16 mich

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:42

Japanese Yen is so high that Honda doesn't return easier or it's limited to European Honda.
http://www.xe.com/cu...R...PY&view=10Y
http://www.xe.com/cu...P...PY&view=10Y
http://www.xe.com/cu...D...PY&view=10Y

#17 Ian G

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:00

Honda,IMO, will be back in F-1 at some stage,first with an engine and then later a chassis but i wouldn't be holding my breath waiting.

#18 Wheels23

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:17

Doubt it.

I don't think still with the economy not stable around the world, that Honda will enter back in either as an engine or a team.

#19 Junky

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:32

Honda aren't pulling out of MotoGP.


Ferrari and F1 = Honda and Moto GP

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#20 ArnageWRC

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:20

Why are they thinking of F1 – haven’t they learned their lesson?
The WEC would be a far better series for them, up against their rival Toyota, as well as Audi, Porsche, etc It also offers a better technology showcase – rather than the ‘one size fits all’ F1 engine spec.


#21 Disgrace

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:49

As long as they've learnt from their hilariously poor effort first time around. I would rather only see their engines back; a variety in engines is sorely lacking in F1.

Edited by Disgrace, 11 October 2012 - 08:49.


#22 Atreiu

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:58

Second time around, wasn't it?
They, as Renault, should stick with engines.

#23 hotstickyslick

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:40

Few of the pundits appear to share your confidence, sadly.

Assuming Honda are actually smart, of course.

#24 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:27

Second time around, wasn't it?
They, as Renault, should stick with engines.


https://en.wikipedia...iki/Honda_RA099

Would be their 4th attempt.

1964 to 1968 with some success. An abortive effort in 1999 that birthed a car, the RA099, but died with the tragic passing of Harvey Postlethwaite. And then its complete buyout of BAR in 2006 after a partial buyout in 2004.

5 years and then 3 years as a constructor. Not long to be honest.

I think they will supply engines again, without entering the mire that is being a F1 constructor.

Edited by Jimisgod, 11 October 2012 - 15:31.


#25 Risil

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:46

4.5th, if you count the hobby-project RC100/101 that some of Honda's engineers worked on after the company pulled out of F1 competition. It's a shame they didn't enter it as a one-off at the Japanese rounds, although I'm not sure what Bernie-F1 thought about wildcard competitors in those days.

Edited by Risil, 11 October 2012 - 15:46.


#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:51

Honda are so pro-F1 they didn't even attend the 'Interest Meetings' about upcoming rules that VW and Hyundai did.

#27 hass80

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:53

Would love for Honda to come back into F1 and team up with McLaren again

#28 Orn

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:31

I wasn't expecting this till at least 2014

#29 midgrid

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:18

who thinks the 2009 brawn honda would be slower than the actual 2009 brawn mercedes? as far as i recall the 2000 to 2009 honda engines were never among the the best. if anything they were at the bottom of the food chain.


Mark Hughes penned an interesting "what-if" column on this subject a couple of years ago. In his alternate history, which concluded with the Australian GP, Button finished third in the Honda RA109. Essentially the car was just as fast, if not faster than the Brawn BGP 001, with the extra testing and the optimised engine installation making up for the slight performance disadvantage of the Honda unit relative to the the Mercedes. However, since the car ran in the first pre-season test and was immediately as competitive as the Brawn in real life, albeit in the final test, rivals such as Red Bull were able to copy the double-diffuser concept in time for the first race, effectively ruling Honda out of the championship fight from the get-go. The conclusion was naturally that Brawn's late launch, necessitated by Honda's withdrawal, was in fact another significant positive factor in the "perfect storm" scenario which won the team both the championships.

P.S. I think Toyota was generally reckoned to have the weakest V8 engine.

Edited by midgrid, 11 October 2012 - 19:18.


#30 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:42

I thought the story back then was that the Merc was so much better than the Honda, that Brackley back-calculated how much better they'd have done with the 2008 Honda with a Mercedes in the back. Ie making it to Q3.

#31 MadYarpen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:10

Im no fan of memes, but...

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#32 King Six

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:14

They'll probably just retake Mercedes/Team Brackley once they inevitably **** off like all manufacturers do

#33 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:28

They'll probably just retake Mercedes/Team Brackley once they inevitably **** off like all manufacturers do


You must really love Trotskiy


#34 Risil

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:29

You must really love Trotskiy


:drunk:

#35 mich

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:23

Sun Newspaper said McLaren reunites with Honda because they doesn't wants to stay as customer for Mercedes.
Will great red and white turbo cars come back?

But only the man with a yellow helmet like Senna wants to stay in Mercedes... :lol:

Edited by mich, 22 October 2012 - 19:28.


#36 Alfisti

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:38

There is space for another engine supplier and Honda is an engine company that makes things to put them in. Given their lack of road going turbo charged engines which are consuming the world (even Ford USA is running them fer god's sake), it may make sense engineering wise.

The 2.3 litre engine in the RDX/MDX is rightfully lambasted for it's atrocious fuel economy so they are some way behind.

Edited by Alfisti, 22 October 2012 - 19:39.


#37 mich

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:55

There is space for another engine supplier and Honda is an engine company that makes things to put them in. Given their lack of road going turbo charged engines which are consuming the world (even Ford USA is running them fer god's sake), it may make sense engineering wise.

The 2.3 litre engine in the RDX/MDX is rightfully lambasted for it's atrocious fuel economy so they are some way behind.


Last weekend, a Civic with Honda's new turbine engine "HR412E" debuted in WTCC, Suzuka round.
But it was 1.6l but an inline-4 engine, not V6.

#38 BigCHrome

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 00:31

Why are they thinking of F1 – haven’t they learned their lesson?
The WEC would be a far better series for them, up against their rival Toyota, as well as Audi, Porsche, etc It also offers a better technology showcase – rather than the ‘one size fits all’ F1 engine spec.


Because WEC gets absolutely no hype or press.

#39 SUPRAF1

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 00:52

Also because McLaren is probably going to beg them instead of paying 8 Million pounds for Merc engines :p.

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#40 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:44

Mark Hughes penned an interesting "what-if" column on this subject a couple of years ago. In his alternate history, which concluded with the Australian GP, Button finished third in the Honda RA109. Essentially the car was just as fast, if not faster than the Brawn BGP 001, with the extra testing and the optimised engine installation making up for the slight performance disadvantage of the Honda unit relative to the the Mercedes. However, since the car ran in the first pre-season test and was immediately as competitive as the Brawn in real life, albeit in the final test, rivals such as Red Bull were able to copy the double-diffuser concept in time for the first race, effectively ruling Honda out of the championship fight from the get-go. The conclusion was naturally that Brawn's late launch, necessitated by Honda's withdrawal, was in fact another significant positive factor in the "perfect storm" scenario which won the team both the championships.


I'd love to read that piece. Got a link?

#41 korzeniow

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:15

Mark Hughes penned an interesting "what-if" column on this subject a couple of years ago. In his alternate history, which concluded with the Australian GP, Button finished third in the Honda RA109. Essentially the car was just as fast, if not faster than the Brawn BGP 001, with the extra testing and the optimised engine installation making up for the slight performance disadvantage of the Honda unit relative to the the Mercedes. However, since the car ran in the first pre-season test and was immediately as competitive as the Brawn in real life, albeit in the final test, rivals such as Red Bull were able to copy the double-diffuser concept in time for the first race, effectively ruling Honda out of the championship fight from the get-go. The conclusion was naturally that Brawn's late launch, necessitated by Honda's withdrawal, was in fact another significant positive factor in the "perfect storm" scenario which won the team both the championships.

P.S. I think Toyota was generally reckoned to have the weakest V8 engine.


Did he mention about Brawn's lack of funding and necessity to fire a lot of people? Without a doubt with Honda in the picture the team would have the money for the inseason development

#42 Eff One 2002

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:42

I'd like to see Honda back, preferably as a constructor so we would have 26 cars on the grid again.

#43 juicy sushi

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:26

Sun Newspaper said McLaren reunites with Honda because they doesn't wants to stay as customer for Mercedes.
Will great red and white turbo cars come back?

But only the man with a yellow helmet like Senna wants to stay in Mercedes... :lol:

It's ok, McLaren have signed a Latin American rising star to replace their modern day Keke Rosberg...

Edited by juicy sushi, 25 October 2012 - 01:26.


#44 Lemans

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:32

It's ok, McLaren have signed a Latin American rising star to replace their modern day Keke Rosberg...


:lol: ouch.



#45 lustigson

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:13

I'd like to see Honda back, preferably as a constructor so we would have 26 cars on the grid again.

Only the grid is now limited to 24 cars. :|

#46 korzeniow

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:06

Only the grid is now limited to 24 cars. :|


Since when it is limited to 24? Must be very recetly, because in 2010 with USF1 there would be 26 cars

#47 lustigson

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:51

Since when it is limited to 24? Must be very recetly, because in 2010 with USF1 there would be 26 cars

Crap, you're right. I was thinking 13 teams = 24 cars. :blush:

#48 Dunc

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:05

Honda coming back would be great news. More engines = more competition, always a good thing. Plus, Williams have really benefitted from reuniting with Renault, I'm sure McLaren could do the same reuniting with Honda. In both cases they seem to be a natural fit with each other.

#49 Baddoer

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:06

Not gonna happen.

#50 korzeniow

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:08

Honda coming back would be great news. More engines = more competition, always a good thing. Plus, Williams have really benefitted from reuniting with Renault, I'm sure McLaren could do the same reuniting with Honda. In both cases they seem to be a natural fit with each other.


Benefited? They already have the best car this season. You talk as they are suffering because of Mercedes engines