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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#451 Bruce

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:41

Honda comes, Honda wins; Honda loses? Honda leaves...

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#452 One

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:43

Honda comes, Honda wins; Honda loses? Honda leaves...


you always have to complain about something, he.

#453 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:47

Ito said this February at Honda's 2013 motor sport activity press conference that:
- Honda are studying formula One.
- Honda regrets the result of last project.
- Honda wants to win.
besides they supply some engines to some 100 categories.

IMHO Honda's ambition can only be fulfilled when they go their own way, but in a better organization and team set up.
- BAR Honda was disaster.
- Surtees Honda was made by Honda themselves.
- Toyota failed from Germany with the biggest cash.

- Only Ferrari produce cars at their own factory as the car maker.
- Sauber and STR is building their own car.
- All teams are based in Europe.
- Honda tend to do the project with foreign constructors.

I shout Honda does it with Dome, which will not happen. The second shout is to get the Super Aguri back. The third shout will be to buy Enstone or FI with slash price.
In anyways do it Mean and Lean. that will be the answer to what we learned from Toyota.

So nothing that's inconsistent with them coming in as an engine manufacturer, and nothing to suggest they're intending to run a team. Thanks.

#454 Wiggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 13:07

Hopefully Ron and Frank can work some deal out with HONDA which is favourable to both teams. Would love to see Williams and McLaren steam ahead on Honda power the old Brit Pack back at the fore!!

#455 Wiggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 13:15

I remember Wolff suggesting a 4th engine supplier was on the horizon when he was at Williams. Perhaps he had some dealings with the courting period.

#456 Bruce

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 13:19

you always have to complain about something, he.


Actually - not really a complaint - it's an old saying - think it comes out of bike racing, but I'm not sure.

I'd love to see Honda back - and I think McLaren is a likely candidate...

#457 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 13:36

Actually, I trust Honda's commitments more than anyone else. They really only got out last time because of the financial collapse. They will be the last manufacturer to leave racing. They can justify it on marketing grounds but at heart they are racing-nerds.

#458 Burtros

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 14:09

Ito said this February at Honda's 2013 motor sport activity press conference that:
- Honda are studying formula One.
- Honda regrets the result of last project.
- Honda wants to win.
besides they supply some engines to some 100 categories.

IMHO Honda's ambition can only be fulfilled when they go their own way, but in a better organization and team set up.
- BAR Honda was disaster.
- Surtees Honda was made by Honda themselves.
- Toyota failed from Germany with the biggest cash.

- Only Ferrari produce cars at their own factory as the car maker.
- Sauber and STR is building their own car.
- All teams are based in Europe.
- Honda tend to do the project with foreign constructors.

I shout Honda does it with Dome, which will not happen. The second shout is to get the Super Aguri back. The third shout will be to buy Enstone or FI with slash price.
In anyways do it Mean and Lean. that will be the answer to what we learned from Toyota.


no, what we learned from Toyota was that its incredibly hard to win as a manufacturer team, no matter how much cash you throw at it. Its a warning for all car makers out there considering what path is best to take into F1.

Its also a big reason why Honda will floor me if they come back as an constructor. I'd be amazed.

Edited by Burtros, 05 March 2013 - 14:10.


#459 muramasa

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 14:17

Honda management meant they thought they could do away with all the good work Geoff Willis had put in at BAR since 2003. Their top motorcycle man then made two lemons, the latter of which they didn't develop to focus on the RA109 to which they handed the glory over to Mr. Brawn. That is, after they nearly destroyed the entire Brackley squad.

They are a laughing stock, and should not be welcomed back in anything other than engine form.


Honda is consumer car manufacturer after all, so whatever they decide to do about f1 or whatever (whether participate f1 or ditch f1 team or whatever) it's completely up to them. At the end of 2008, Honda couldve just shut down the brackley, or break up the team to sell or use the facility for sth else for their own (Honda invested alot to updating the facility), or simply left them in the cold (like BMW did to Sauber), but they chose the most expensive option to get out of F1.

Honda wanted the brackley team to survive. So not only they did NOT insist or claim any rights in the team, facility and 2009 championship but also left money enough to operate throughout the 2009 season comfortably. Honda knew in the 08-09 winter negotiation Fry and Brawn was taking advantage of the situation and sort of trying to rip off, but Honda accepted it and made huge compromise.

people say they're laughing stock coz Brawn won both championship in 2009 but who wouldve bought brackley if Honda had announced quitting f1 in-season? or just left the brackley team in the cold suddenly at the end of 2008? Honda coulve continued on to 2009 to quit at the end of the 2009 (the amount of money they left to Brawn and the amount of money it takes to run the team 1 year was roughly the same), but alot of teams went into awkward situation at the end of 2009.
What Honda did was actually the best possible scenario in order for the team to survive and prosper;
- withdraw completely on appearance (while funding the team for the whole 2009) so that it will be easier to find engine supplier
- a gap year to cut off association with Honda and to reset the team's image so that potential new owner/buyer will find it easier to buy/invest on them
- championship winning car so that it will give them high premium and they'll more likely to be able to find better buyer

So if it was other timing or other ways, the brackley team wouldve had to go through much more difficulty and things wouldve been completely different for them.


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#460 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 14:24

Honda is consumer car manufacturer after all, so whatever they decide to do about f1 or whatever (whether participate f1 or ditch f1 team or whatever) it's completely up to them. At the end of 2008, Honda couldve just shut down the brackley, or break up the team to sell or use the facility for sth else for their own (Honda invested alot to updating the facility), or simply left them in the cold (like BMW did to Sauber), but they chose the most expensive option to get out of F1.

Honda wanted the brackley team to survive. So not only they did NOT insist or claim any rights in the team, facility and 2009 championship but also left money enough to operate throughout the 2009 season comfortably. Honda knew in the 08-09 winter negotiation Fry and Brawn was taking advantage of the situation and sort of trying to rip off, but Honda accepted it and made huge compromise.

people say they're laughing stock coz Brawn won both championship in 2009 but who wouldve bought brackley if Honda had announced quitting f1 in-season? or just left the brackley team in the cold suddenly at the end of 2008? Honda coulve continued on to 2009 to quit at the end of the 2009 (the amount of money they left to Brawn and the amount of money it takes to run the team 1 year was roughly the same), but alot of teams went into awkward situation at the end of 2009.
What Honda did was actually the best possible scenario in order for the team to survive and prosper;
- withdraw completely on appearance (while funding the team for the whole 2009) so that it will be easier to find engine supplier
- a gap year to cut off association with Honda and to reset the team's image so that potential new owner/buyer will find it easier to buy/invest on them
- championship winning car so that it will give them high premium and they'll more likely to be able to find better buyer

So if it was other timing or other ways, the brackley team wouldve had to go through much more difficulty and things wouldve been completely different for them.

Honda deserve a lot of respect for their engines in F1. They deserve tremendous respect for the way the left in 2008 (the contrast with Toyota is striking). Not so much for the way they ran a team. IMO, obviously.

#461 One

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 14:49

So nothing that's inconsistent with them coming in as an engine manufacturer, and nothing to suggest they're intending to run a team. Thanks.


I cannot give you more than what Ito has told us. Actually no one could.

Vis-a-Vis you have no proof nor suggestion from Honda that they limit their return as the engine maker. This is more like rumor that Mclaren trying to arm Honda to give them a free engine. BBC report is the same. There i nothing pronounced from Honda themselves.

#462 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 14:59

I cannot give you more than what Ito has told us. Actually no one could.

Vis-a-Vis you have no proof nor suggestion from Honda that they limit their return as the engine maker. This is more like rumor that Mclaren trying to arm Honda to give them a free engine. BBC report is the same. There i nothing pronounced from Honda themselves.

I can't prove that you're not a visitor from another dimension who's come to guide us with your knowledge of the future, but hey-ho.

#463 Amphicar

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:31

I have no idea whether Honda really are planning to re-enter Formula One, much less do I know whether they are thinking of doing so as a constructor rather than an engine supplier. But, if I were a Honda boss (or shareholder) I might find it instructive to look at the company's past record of F1 involvement.

If I did so, I would discover:

That as an engine supplier (1983-1982 and 200-2005), Honda achieved 71 race wins, 6 WCCs and 5 WDCs. Looking in more detail, I would note that 44 of those race wins, 4 of the WCCs and 4 of the WDCs were achieved in partnership with McLaren. I would also discover that 40 of the 71 race wins were by a 1.5 litre turbocharged v6 engine;

That as a constructor (1964-1968 and 2000-2008), Honda achieved precisely 3 race wins (Richie Ginther in Mexico in 1965, John Surtees at Monza in 1967 and Jenson Button in Hungary in 2006).

I think I might conclude that Honda's greatest success was achieved as an engine supplier in partnership with McLaren and that renewing that partnership would be the most sensible way to re-enter F1. Particularly as doing so would involve a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 engine. The fact that the last driver to win an F1 race in a Honda powered car now drives for McLaren might be a small additional incentive.

Edited by Amphicar, 05 March 2013 - 15:36.


#464 One

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:38

I can't prove that you're not a visitor from another dimension who's come to guide us with your knowledge of the future, but hey-ho.


Ture. I am mixing up my sentiments big time. :p

#465 slmk

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:39

I have no idea whether Honda really are planning to re-enter Formula One, much less do I know whether they are thinking of doing so as a constructor rather than an engine supplier. But, if I were a Honda boss (or shareholder) I might find it instructive to look at the company's past record of F1 involvement.

If I did so, I would discover:

That as an engine supplier (1983-1982 and 200-2005), Honda achieved 71 race wins, 6 WCCs and 5 WDCs. Looking in more detail, I would note that 44 of those race wins, 4 of the WCCs and 4 of the WDCs were achieved in partnership with McLaren. I would also discover that 40 of the 71 race wins were by a 1.5 litre turbocharged v6 engine;

That as a constructor (1964-1968 and 2000-2008), Honda achieved precisely 3 race wins (Richie Ginther in Mexico in 1965, John Surtees at Monza in 1967 and Jenson Button in Hungary in 2006).

I think I might conclude that Honda's greatest success was achieved as an engine supplier in partnership with McLaren and that renewing that partnership would be the most sensible way to re-enter F1. Particularly as doing so would involve a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 engine. The fact that the last driver to win an F1 race in a Honda powered car now drives for McLaren might be a small additional incentive.


How so?

#466 Rinehart

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:42

Honda and Toyota have been manufacturers in F1 for nearly a decade and it didn't change their public image at all.


You might be showing your young age here!
Honda didn't produce their first production car until the mid 1960's and their first foray into F1 coincided with that.
They were very much a growing brand in Europe in the 1980's when they returned to F1 in 1983.
Their participation in F1 had a lot to do with their growing brand.
The point I am making is back then, Honda were NOT the brand you think of now and thus conclude F1 didn't change their image.

#467 Rinehart

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:47

I remember Wolff suggesting a 4th engine supplier was on the horizon when he was at Williams. Perhaps he had some dealings with the courting period.


If Honda come in, its pretty much a foregone conclusion that they'll supply more than one team - as there is an agreement for the manufacturers to supply more than one team each.

I'd guess McLaren - Works, Williams - Semi Works is a pretty good bet, knowing their histories. I'd also say with Wolff going to Merc, the opposite of any Williams-Merc tie up is most likely.

#468 Rinehart

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:51

I cannot give you more than what Ito has told us. Actually no one could.

Vis-a-Vis you have no proof nor suggestion from Honda that they limit their return as the engine maker. This is more like rumor that Mclaren trying to arm Honda to give them a free engine. BBC report is the same. There i nothing pronounced from Honda themselves.


Lets not get into a whose guess is best debate, but the gossip in the paddock is that its as an ENGINE supplier.

#469 blackmme

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:53

Honda deserve a lot of respect for their engines in F1. They deserve tremendous respect for the way the left in 2008 (the contrast with Toyota is striking). Not so much for the way they ran a team. IMO, obviously.


:up:

Absolutely, Honda have racing soul. They funded the team and kept it going as a going concern. Yep they made lot's of mistakes in running the team (but which team hasn't at some time or another?) but they are racers through and through.

Regards Mike

#470 Amphicar

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:58

How so?

Because when Honda decided to pull out at the end of 2008, Jenson Button had already signed a multi-year contract with them worth tens of millions of dollars. Honda acknowledged that Jenson could have held them to that contract and if had done so, they would have had to pay him. Instead, JB agreed to the cancellation of his Honda contract, thereby allowing Honda to use the money to fund Brawn GP for one season. That enlightened but very risky gamble gave JB his WDC but it also allowed Honda to bow out of F1 without losing face.

#471 10e10

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 15:58

:up:

Absolutely, Honda have racing soul. They funded the team and kept it going as a going concern. Yep they made lot's of mistakes in running the team (but which team hasn't at some time or another?) but they are racers through and through.

Regards Mike


If this is about respect, Honda really deserves it, we must look at their record in the late 80s and see why they might be eager to return. I would love them to return, and if with McLaren for me the better.

#472 Jimisgod

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:02

More engines is good for the series. Good luck McLaren.

As usual a whole lot of people on the forum making hot air, but McLaren - Honda have history and a good one at that.

#473 blackmme

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:09

Because when Honda decided to pull out at the end of 2008, Jenson Button had already signed a multi-year contract with them worth tens of millions of dollars. Honda acknowledged that Jenson could have held them to that contract and if had done so, they would have had to pay him. Instead, JB agreed to the cancellation of his Honda contract, thereby allowing Honda to use the money to fund Brawn GP for one season. That enlightened but very risky gamble gave JB his WDC but it also allowed Honda to bow out of F1 without losing face.


I believe it went further than that. I would have preferred them to stay and surely they would of as well but of course at a time of laying people off globally some things just aren't doable. Of course if they engaged a proper sponsor / commercial partner then perhaps it could have been sustained but thanks to Simon Fuller and the bloody stupid Earth Dreams then that wasn't possible.

I do like the fact that a chassis conceived and built to be a RA109 became the Brawn 001 and was finally rolled out in Mercedes colours

Regards Mike

#474 muramasa

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:31

The fact that the last driver to win an F1 race in a Honda powered car now drives for McLaren might be a small additional incentive.

no, such thing wouldnt be the slightest incentive to them I'm sure (just a nice reunion, that's it).
Technical aspect (whether f1 engine is relevant to their core business or not) and financial viability is sole factor for Honda.


#475 Burtros

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:41

no, such thing wouldnt be the slightest incentive to them I'm sure (just a nice reunion, that's it).
Technical aspect (whether f1 engine is relevant to their core business or not) and financial viability is sole factor for Honda.


I think you are forgetting how popular JB is in Japan mainly thanks to his other half, so he would be an attractive option for Honda up against some other drivers. Looking at the bigger picture, I do agree that JB isnt much of a bargaining chip. That because I think a possible 2015 entry with McLaren will mean any time with JB is limited to only a few seasons max - so its a bit of a red herring as Honda wont have a long relationship with him.




#476 muramasa

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 16:47

i dont get this honda as constructor talk.

As I said before, it's true that "body language" they (Honda CEO, Honda motorsport division chief, etc) make recently suggests they want to come back to f1 if possible, but that's it.

If anything I DONT want them to run an F1 team now or foreseeable future. They couldve and imo shouldve done so for 1999 or 2000 with HRD and RA099, but not now. F1 team has become extremely specialized now so it's not realistic for and relevant to Honda to run a team.


#477 One

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 17:01

Lets not get into a whose guess is best debate, but the gossip in the paddock is that its as an ENGINE supplier.


Thisis your guesstimation as well. very wobbly

#478 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 17:10

Thisis your guesstimation as well. very wobbly

Why do you think 'Honda to supply engines' is the lead story on the BBC F1 main page and 'Honda to enter team' isn't?

#479 One

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 20:48

Why do you think 'Honda to supply engines' is the lead story on the BBC F1 main page and 'Honda to enter team' isn't?


Some one is putting pressure on Honda Japan to do so?

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#480 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 21:02

Some one is putting pressure on Honda Japan to do so?

Bonkers.

#481 chumma

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 21:26

How so?

Jenson is unbelievably popular in Japan and he worked with Honda for 6 or so years.

#482 F1Champion

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:29

Hopefully Ron and Frank can work some deal out with HONDA which is favourable to both teams. Would love to see Williams and McLaren steam ahead on Honda power the old Brit Pack back at the fore!!


Now that would be interesting! Would love to see Williams back at the front.

#483 trogggy

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:43

Now that would be interesting! Would love to see Williams back at the front.

They had the same engines as the wdc / wcc winners last season. It doesn't get much better than that.

#484 Mr Plug

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 23:02

That as a constructor (1964-1968 and 2000-2008), Honda achieved precisely 3 race wins (Richie Ginther in Mexico in 1965, John Surtees at Monza in 1967 and Jenson Button in Hungary in 2006).



- Surtees Honda was made by Honda themselves.


If my memory serves me correctly, it might have been a Honda engine in Surtees' car, but the chassis was a Lola.....hence the 'Hondola' nickname. `

#485 Amphicar

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 23:21

If my memory serves me correctly, it might have been a Honda engine in Surtees' car, but the chassis was a Lola.....hence the 'Hondola' nickname. `

The Honda RA300 was designed by Eric Broadley of Lola (based on the T90 Indycar with which Graham Hill won the 1966 Indy 500) but it was built by Honda so Surtees's Monza victory counts as a Honda win.

#486 10e10

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 00:51

McLaren play down Honda link

#487 trogggy

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:10

McLaren play down Honda link

'There is no plan B.' :D

#488 SophieB

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:39

McLaren play down Honda link


What I can tell you is we have a contract with a long-standing partner, Mercedes-Benz, for 2013, 2014 and 2015. So we have a contract, they're our partners and we're going to try and win World Championships and races with them.


This says so much less than it looks at first glance. It's already known that McLaren have contract options for those years. The key bit is whether they're going to take them up, something which his answer doesn't cover.


#489 mattferg

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:04

McLaren play down Honda link


Tbh this all sounds like the interview is more for Mercedes' benefit than anyone else's!

#490 lbennie

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:25

I'm taking it as rumour until eddie jordan confirms it




#491 lustigson

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:33

McLaren play down Honda link


While that's an important statement, what else would Whitmarsh say?

#492 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:03

I think McLaren will opt for Mercedes in 2014 and develop Honda engines in parallel.

Once Honda surpasses Merc, McLaren will drop them.

All those green technologies [Kers] take time for Honda to develop.

But of course Merc won't let McLaren get their engines and allow Honda to have 'inspiration' and outperform them.

Very confortable situation for McLaren.

#493 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:43

...Top that off with half the grid having yellow helmets and you have to ask yourself what on Earth is going on with these people...

For crying out loud don't give them ideas again! :eek:

Posted Image

 ;)

#494 lustigson

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:54

All those green technologies [Kers] take time for Honda to develop.


Of course. Just like it takes Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari time to develop those technologies.

#495 muramasa

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:46

Jenson is unbelievably popular in Japan and he worked with Honda for 6 or so years.

wut (´・ω・)

I think you are forgetting how popular JB is in Japan mainly thanks to his other half, so he would be an attractive option for Honda up against some other drivers. Looking at the bigger picture, I do agree that JB isnt much of a bargaining chip. That because I think a possible 2015 entry with McLaren will mean any time with JB is limited to only a few seasons max - so its a bit of a red herring as Honda wont have a long relationship with him.

unfortunately JB isnt and never was that popular here. He's just ok popular. Vettel and Kimi are comfortably more popular here. But perhaps no recent drivers match Schumacher, who is/was poplular and really well-known among general public.


#496 One

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:21

Bonkers.

is it? :lol:

WTCC engine was produced before the decision to join the series due pressure from Honda European dealer as news reports... It is now not too far fetched to think that the same dealers want Honda to be back on Formula One for establishing sportive car maker. Renault in combination with Alpine and now Caterham is making a lot of new noise. They (all) makes (made) chassis in the category. if Honda were to compete against and make their point, there is only one way that is to become the constructor.

#497 One

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:22

For crying out loud don't give them ideas again! :eek:

Posted Image

;)



I always thought that this idea comes from Hamilton's manager together with HAT Fry...

#498 ZooL

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:06

The problem with Honda is that they are more than likely behind the development curve already. The other teams are likely to be well advanced with engines already on the dyno many moons ago.
There is no homologation and might be a few years of growing pains before McLaren reach any potential benefit of the partnership.

#499 bonjon1979a

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:09

The problem with Honda is that they are more than likely behind the development curve already. The other teams are likely to be well advanced with engines already on the dyno many moons ago.
There is no homologation and might be a few years of growing pains before McLaren reach any potential benefit of the partnership.


I don't see this as anything more than Mclaren trying to leverage a better deal out of merc. It's classic negotiating tactics, float the idea that a company may lose your custom altogether to try to get a better deal.

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#500 SunnyENTP

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:51

Jenson is unbelievably popular in Japan and he worked with Honda for 6 or so years.



Oh you believe the tabloid hype. :lol: I lived Japan for 5 years and just have to laugh at this. Yes he drove for Honda and has fans who turn up to races. But please dont make it sound like he was a Maradonna in Napoli. We know there were Napoli fans who had a hard time deciding whether to root for Italy or Argentina during the world cup. Now that is what you call unbelievably popular