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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#651 F1Champion

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 19:01

I never liked the whole rotation policy of Honda engineers. Stability is key in F1. Engineers need to learn, fail and gain experience when developing an engine. Once that experience is built up, new ideas on development emerge. New faces means once an engineer is comfortable they get transferred. Whilst Honda felt that the policy is beneficial to the company in skilling their staff, you would have to question whether it is. I mean F1 is extreme engineering, its nice to take some ideas but to road car engineering but that is a whole different set of parameters, durability, reliability, cost etc which could be developed with their existing in house road car team.

They need to bring back their history and heritage of the 90's and be 100% committed to it, because F1 is such a hotbed of competition, you have to be whole hearted about your commitment because you are going up against some of the best engineering minds on the globe.

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#652 JimboJones

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:15

With the exception of Ferrari I'm against car manufacturers owning teams. They either lose and bugger off or they throw billions at it in an attempt to buy a championship man city style.

Manufacturers should bring engines and technologies. Pure racing teams should be the constructors.


:rotfl:
Apart from Ferrari of course, it's somehow ok for them alone to throw 'billions' at it...

#653 chumma

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:28

Id be seriously pissed if I was McLaren or Honda and this really does go ahead which I think it definitely will. had they kept it under wraps, Mercedes would be none the wiser, and it would have been easier to gain access to Mercedes engines configuration, secrets etc into making the Honda better.

#654 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:36

That'd be insanely unprofessional.

#655 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:41

Id be seriously pissed if I was McLaren or Honda and this really does go ahead which I think it definitely will. had they kept it under wraps, Mercedes would be none the wiser, and it would have been easier to gain access to Mercedes engines configuration, secrets etc into making the Honda better.


I really wonder how many more people are going to make this stupid statement. Merc send a whole team of engineers to look after the engines and the old engines go back to merc, the team do not get to take them apart and play with the internals.

#656 chumma

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:41

That'd be insanely unprofessional.

whats that? I don't mean use the Mercedes engine as a base model, but know what they're up against.

#657 chumma

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:43

I really wonder how many more people are going to make this stupid statement. Merc send a whole team of engineers to look after the engines and the old engines go back to merc, the team do not get to take them apart and play with the internals.

I never said the team take them apart and look at the internals don't go putting words in my mouth. But if you think the team doesn't have knowledge on how things work in the engine then you're naive at best. Do you think McLaren didn't know how the Mercedes engine was blowing its hot gas? Come on.

Edited by chumma, 14 March 2013 - 20:43.


#658 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:47

I never said the team take them apart and look at the internals don't go putting words in my mouth. But if you think the team doesn't have knowledge on how things work in the engine then you're naive at best. Do you think McLaren didn't know how the Mercedes engine was blowing its hot gas? Come on.


Do you think that Honda don't know how it's done?

#659 chumma

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 20:48

Do you think that Honda don't know how it's done?

I know Honda don't know jack sh*t about the new Mercedes V6 engines. As an engine manufacturer they would know how its done, but do they know how Mercedes did it on their engine? No.

I don't wanna take the thread off topic so lets just agree to disagree, we both have our points.

Edited by chumma, 14 March 2013 - 20:49.


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#660 Burtros

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 21:43

Mercedes planning a rear guard action?



Its interesting to see a reaction from Mercedes at last.

I wonder how this could effect McLaren for 2014...... They wont get their hands on an engine till late already.... Merc understandably wont be hurry to give it to them if these rumors still persist come the summer. Worse still if its an open secret or been announced. Then you have the rather interesting working relationship for a year between McLaren and Merc.

#661 One

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 22:35

you shut up :drunk: :lol:


:p Thanx for your a lot of attentions. :up:

actually agree on this, i mean Super Aguri was what Honda '00s shoudve been, an embodiment of true Honda spirit - starting as underdog, and frugal, positive and undaunted. The support they were getting was truly universal, indiscriminate and natural.


:up: you needless to say put is in the way I could possibly NOT done unless otherwise.

But it's 15 years too late.


This is entirely WRONG. Nothing is too late. Really NOTHING IS TOO LATE.

As i said before, they shudve done it in 99 with HRD, instead of partnering BAR. If they'd handled things and nurtured it nicely, they couldve developed HRD into competitive F1 like Stewart/RedBull did, or Honda version of TMG, a multi-purpose technology center. But not now.


Yes the history and legacy is there. No doubt!

btw it's not widely known that much of Super Aguri car develpment had been done at Tochigi. What they've done with modifying then-4-years old(!) Arrows car and adapting 06 Honda car to 07 reg was stunning to say the least, esp the former. in that sense it's abit shame to not be able to see their full potential as constructor, but anyway F1 team has become too irrelevant for them, it's too late.


Here we go. honda could do it from Tochigi. Questionis why not? Matter of monies? NO. Matter of intern politics, I have no idea. ... We are all waiting.

#662 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 00:41

I know Honda don't know jack sh*t about the new Mercedes V6 engines. As an engine manufacturer they would know how its done, but do they know how Mercedes did it on their engine? No.

I don't wanna take the thread off topic so lets just agree to disagree, we both have our points.


That's a good way to get sued by Mercedes

#663 10e10

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 17:34

Martin Whitmarsh:

Q: What about the talk of switching to Honda engines in the future? They are not ready for 2014, but what lies beyond that?
MW: We have a clear contract with Mercedes for 2014 and 2015 and we are not commenting on other engine suppliers. We have a great long-term partnership with Mercedes and we are contracted to be with them for now.

Q: How long is ‘for now’?
MW: As I just said, we have a contract over the next three years and we are focusing on doing the best job we can with them.

Q: So we won’t be seeing a Telmex McLaren Honda team in 2015?
MW: I doubt it. You want to draw me into something! (laughs) As I said, I doubt it as it is not in our plan at the moment.



#664 Wiggy

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 18:59

Talk is that Gilles Simon, ex Ferrari engine boss, and co-author of the 2014 engine regs, who went off to 'PURE', is holed up somewhere in the UK working on a Honda engine project. He's done a disappearing act, and is highly regarded and sought after.

Hmm.

I hope Murussia are a testbed team for Honda in 2014, especially with the McLaren partnership, I'd love to see this team come good.

#665 BRG

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 20:20

Drove past McLaren at Woking just after at 4pm today, as the workforce left for home. Right in front of me, a guy came out of McLaren in a HONDA Type R. Co-incidence? I don't think so.

#666 10e10

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 22:14

Drove past McLaren at Woking just after at 4pm today, as the workforce left for home. Right in front of me, a guy came out of McLaren in a HONDA Type R. Co-incidence? I don't think so.


Somehow I don't think all workers at McLaren are driving SLRs, 12Cs and F1s, and specially P1s.

#667 Absulute

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 23:14

Somehow I don't think all workers at McLaren are driving SLRs, 12Cs and F1s, and specially P1s.


I'm pretty sure they're given Mercs as company cars.

They don't have to take a company car, of course.

#668 BRG

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 23:18

It was definitely a Honda. So that makes this story true surely?  ;)

#669 athlon

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:45

Have been spending times on Sauber thread today.

Sauber is the best option for Honda if they were to buy existing team. Doing Super Aguri will achieve the best possible sympathetic attentions from all over the world. For marketing this is the best option; start small, very small with great personality.

Besides, Suaber's record in Formula One racing is excellent in a sense that they have NEVER went down the grid when they operate by themselves. Only when BMW stepped in They did went backwards. Sauber is a small efficient team with intelligence. Very precise and strong way of thinking and operation. They are surviver and knows how to pull maximum from smallest resources.


Hmmm
http://www.blick.ch/...-id2239339.html

#670 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 13:15

I'm pretty sure they're given Mercs as company cars.

They don't have to take a company car, of course.


All of them?

#671 Sakae

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 13:35

...Besides, Suaber's record in Formula One racing is excellent in a sense that they have NEVER went down the grid when they operate by themselves. Only when BMW stepped in They did went backwards. Sauber is a small efficient team with intelligence. Very precise and strong way of thinking and operation. They are surviver and knows how to pull maximum from smallest resources.

BS.

#672 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 13:57

Besides, Suaber's record in Formula One racing is excellent in a sense that they have NEVER went down the grid when they operate by themselves. Only when BMW stepped in They did went backwards. Sauber is a small efficient team with intelligence. Very precise and strong way of thinking and operation. They are surviver and knows how to pull maximum from smallest resources.


What happened form 2002-2005 then?

#673 One

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 13:59

Hmmm
http://www.blick.ch/...-id2239339.html


Yes I can see the pint. In anyways it is not any more than a voice. So let us keep out fingers crossed...

#674 Absulute

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:02

All of them?


Most of them.

I knew a guy who joined them as a graduate and was given an SLK.

#675 10e10

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:23

Most of them.

I knew a guy who joined them as a graduate and was given an SLK.


When was that? Because the agreement might have changed and they pay for the engines this year.

#676 Absulute

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:24

When was that? Because the agreement might have changed and they pay for the engines this year.


2008, I think.

#677 10e10

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:26

2008, I think.


In 2008 McLaren still was Mercedes works team. Now things might have changed.

#678 Dalton007

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:45

There's no way MERC can stop Honda from getting the engine data post 2015. I hope they do. Car manufacturers routinely strip down rival cars. Steal from the best and improve upon it. I do think that Honda are already working on an engine.

#679 Absulute

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 14:59

In 2008 McLaren still was Mercedes works team. Now things might have changed.


Possibly, but I would assume that any agreement to supply a fleet of cars would be separate from any engine deal.

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#680 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 15:11

There's no way MERC can stop Honda from getting the engine data post 2015. I hope they do. Car manufacturers routinely strip down rival cars. Steal from the best and improve upon it. I do think that Honda are already working on an engine.


Massive difference though. You can't nip down the shops and purchase an F1 engine off the shelf.


#681 sanW10

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 15:44

This is just BS, Mercedes are berating McLaren & Honda.
2014 engines are new for everyone, & theres' no knowing who is going to make the best engine, Ferrari/Renault/Merc/ hopefully Honda.
Honda would make an engine on whats in 2014 regulation, & to be honest such small engines+turbo are their favorite territory.





#682 10e10

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 15:44

Possibly, but I would assume that any agreement to supply a fleet of cars would be separate from any engine deal.


But it wasn't just a engine deal, it was more than that, they even had McLaren's 40% shares.

#683 One

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 17:06

What happened form 2002-2005 then?


Well they slipped, so to say. As the constructor Sauber never failed, but they had bad Engine contract and relationships went wrong those years. Look what happened later on.

#684 Sakae

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 17:11

What's with all that rush to get rid of Mercedes? McLaren was well supported over the years by Mercedes, and now all over suddenly so called "fans" just tripping over themselves how to get rid of them?

Honda left F1 (on my watch) when they got whipped their arses by Renault (official “explanation” was just laughable), and then second time when their wheels felt off the BAR’ cart before Brawn took over. They do build good quality (not too safe), and reliable small road vehicles, no ifs or buts about it, but an F1 racer is something else. Whether IRL gave them know-how that was missing first time in F1 is not certain, but they can try. I know Honda in Japan from my professional life, and issues they had in working with foreign nationals outside Japan. That’s not a joke, and only insiders would know what I am referring to.

Considering Honda’s life-long commitment to its Japanese business partners, I am guessing, that if Honda returns, there will be strange links formed who is actually running the show; from US or EU -maybe UK, but hardly from Japan. Moreover, I cannot see how they would spread themselves thinly, and bought Sauber, then move all to UK and also got into wide scale engine business at the same time. If they are coming, it's one or the other, but it is reasonable to assume that it would hardly both.

Edited by Sakae, 16 March 2013 - 17:14.


#685 george1981

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 17:13

Regarding getting a Mercedes as a company car when working for McLaren. I recently applied for a job at Mercedes High Performance Powertrains who make the F1 engines one of the perks was that I could lease a Mercedes at a lower rate than the general public, it wasn't a free car. This wasn't an entry level job either, so I doubt that McLaren staff get free cars as part of the deal.

#686 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 17:19

What's with all that rush to get rid of Mercedes? McLaren was well supported over the years by Mercedes, and now all over suddenly so called "fans" just tripping over themselves how to get rid of them?

Honda left F1 (on my watch) when they got whipped their arses by Renault (official “explanation” was just laughable), and then second time when their wheels felt off the BAR’ cart before Brawn took over. They do build good quality (not too safe), and reliable small road vehicles, no ifs or buts about it, but an F1 racer is something else. Whether IRL gave them know-how that was missing first time in F1 is not certain, but they can try. I know Honda in Japan from my professional life, and issues they had in working with foreign nationals outside Japan. That’s not a joke, and only insiders would know what I am referring to.

Considering Honda’s life-long commitment to its Japanese business partners, I am guessing, that if Honda returns, there will be strange links formed who is actually running the show; from US or EU -maybe UK, but hardly from Japan. Moreover, I cannot see how they would spread themselves thinly, and bought Sauber, then move all to UK and also got into wide scale engine business at the same time. If they are coming, it's one or the other, but it is reasonable to assume that it would hardly both.


Because they now have to pay for the engines and it would be advantageous to have a works supply of free engines.

#687 Sakae

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 19:40

Because they now have to pay for the engines and it would be advantageous to have a works supply of free engines.

Forgive me (I have touch of flue) for slow thinking, but I don't get it. Why Honda would supply McLaren engines free of charge, or what did I missed? I thought what is in stake is that McLaren would replace Merc with Honda, but for what in return to Honda, if not money?

#688 Talisman

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 19:48

Forgive me (I have touch of flue) for slow thinking, but I don't get it. Why Honda would supply McLaren engines free of charge, or what did I missed? I thought what is in stake is that McLaren would replace Merc with Honda, but for what in return to Honda, if not money?


Ever heard of a works engine deal? Only customers pay for their engines.

Relations between merc and mclaren are at an all time low so I can see exactly why Woking wants a new partner, Mercedes wants to get rid of them and why Honda would want to step in as a replacement.



#689 Clatter

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 19:56

Forgive me (I have touch of flue) for slow thinking, but I don't get it. Why Honda would supply McLaren engines free of charge, or what did I missed? I thought what is in stake is that McLaren would replace Merc with Honda, but for what in return to Honda, if not money?


Why did Merc originally supply Mac with free engines?
Why do Renault supply RB with free engines?



#690 MercPower

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 20:02

The way things are going at Mclaren the engine will blow up every race and they will finish last

#691 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 20:41

such small engines+turbo are their favorite territory.

But they don't come in their road cars :confused:

#692 muramasa

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:36

This morning, Japanese media (seems Asahi newspaper is either the first or original medium that reported this) were widely reporting that Honda have started the development of new f1 engine on the premise of returning to F1, citing "Honda source" :lol: . Articles say that they've signed a "foreign engineer" :lol: as an advisor and begun designing and developing the engine in Japan, and the return is expected to be 2015, with McLaren as main candidate, the decision will be made after further, careful consideration and assessment..

So there's nothing new at all about it actually...except that japanese media widely reporting it. Almost copy of bbc and autosport articles of the last few weeks, but major newspapers tend to be more careful and responsible, so they could actually have their own sources, or there couldve been (sort of) official leak. Interesting part is it specifically alleges the develpment is going on in Japan.


#693 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:49

I just hope for McLaren's sake Honda don't decide to do a Lamborghini and go with a small team first.

Edited by chumma, 18 March 2013 - 06:49.


#694 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:14

Second grade engines to Mclaren then? More ka booms from mclaren cars in 2014 :p

#695 One

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:32

This morning, Japanese media (seems Asahi newspaper is either the first or original medium that reported this) were widely reporting that Honda have started the development of new f1 engine on the premise of returning to F1, citing "Honda source" :lol: . Articles say that they've signed a "foreign engineer" :lol: as an advisor and begun designing and developing the engine in Japan, and the return is expected to be 2015, with McLaren as main candidate, the decision will be made after further, careful consideration and assessment..

So there's nothing new at all about it actually...except that japanese media widely reporting it. Almost copy of bbc and autosport articles of the last few weeks, but major newspapers tend to be more careful and responsible, so they could actually have their own sources, or there couldve been (sort of) official leak. Interesting part is it specifically alleges the develpment is going on in Japan.


Timing is interesting.

Mclaren fails to deliver in Australia. > Big paper manifest in Japan the return of Honda, that fix the autosport's article. > conclusion, Honda is Doing it with Mclaren.

Honda said nothing yet...

#696 Talisman

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:20

Interesting part is it specifically alleges the develpment is going on in Japan.


I'd be more surprised if the development was going on somewhere else since every F1 engine ever developed by Honda has been designed there.

Its nice to see though that they've hired an external consultant (presumably Gilles Simon). I hope they don't repeat the same mistakes as previously, ie focussing on top end power and headline power figures rather than torque and driveability. I also hope they retain a core cadre of F1 engineers who will only ever work on the engine rather than changing the entire team every few months.

Otherwise I agree, it just confirms rumours from elsewhere but the more conservative nature of Japanese newspapers makes it much much more likely to be true.

#697 JRizzle86

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:29

Second grade engines to Mclaren then? More ka booms from mclaren cars in 2014 :p


Not sure how Mercedes engines go ka boom works for the Mercedes PR department.

#698 10e10

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 18:09

This morning, Japanese media (seems Asahi newspaper is either the first or original medium that reported this) were widely reporting that Honda have started the development of new f1 engine on the premise of returning to F1, citing "Honda source" :lol: . Articles say that they've signed a "foreign engineer" :lol: as an advisor and begun designing and developing the engine in Japan, and the return is expected to be 2015, with McLaren as main candidate, the decision will be made after further, careful consideration and assessment..

So there's nothing new at all about it actually...except that japanese media widely reporting it. Almost copy of bbc and autosport articles of the last few weeks, but major newspapers tend to be more careful and responsible, so they could actually have their own sources, or there couldve been (sort of) official leak. Interesting part is it specifically alleges the develpment is going on in Japan.


So many "sources" now clamming that Honda is indeed getting ready to return. If they do I hope they do it with McLaren.

#699 athlon

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:07

So many "sources" now clamming that Honda is indeed getting ready to return. If they do I hope they do it with McLaren.


I hope that , if it's possible, they will supply engines to Williams as well. What a superb retro-F1 would that be.

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#700 SCUDmissile

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:26

I hope that , if it's possible, they will supply engines to Williams as well. What a superb retro-F1 would that be.

Lotus back, great drivers again, and Williams Honda and McLaren Honda. My, oh my. :clap: :cool: