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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#851 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:30

I think its good news, the involvement of a serious manufacturer brand in F1 is always good new, Honda are know for their racing pedigree, and a legend in F1 for the McLaren years.

Its also good that we have more diversity between engine suppliers, its kind of boring with only Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault at the moment.

I think McLaren is a company that is getting through a transitional period at the moment, they are finished a big chapter in their history(the Mercedes era) and starting a new one, sometimes its better to turn the page and look into the future.

I wish McLaren-Honda best of luck in the future years.

P.S. While I am a Ferrari fan, I starting F1 being a McLaren-Honda fan because of Senna of course and somehow that white and red livery still lives into my mind and whenever I think back I have very nice memories ... I did not like McLaren in the Mercedes era but I am sure I will like McLaren more in the Honda era.

Are you certain that numbers are boring rather than freeze on engines development?

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#852 David1976

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:33

This is great for F1.

Honda should definitely be respected as an engine supplier. Whether they can repeat their success of the 80's is questionable given that they bowed out of F1 in 2009 with one of the worst engines?

I wish them the best and hope that their return will also attract others to build their own new generation of power-trains. I suspect that it will.

#853 athlon

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:36

Does Jenson have a valid contract for 2015 with McLaren?

#854 ViMaMo

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:40

Koba and Perez in 2015? :drunk:

#855 Lights

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:47

Hold your horses guys

#856 jstrains

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:47

First of all they will need a driver of Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton level they IMHO do not have to be successful like back in the 90s :wave:

#857 SophieB

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:52

Does Jenson have a valid contract for 2015 with McLaren?


I don't think it's known in public quite how long Jenson Button's deal with McLaren runs for. Back when he signed a new deal in 2011, he said mentioned something about how the contract gave him 'a couple of years' to concentrate on the team or something similar. However, before that deal was signed, Martin spoke in terms of wanting to retain him for the rest of his career and then moving him up to be some kind of McLaren ambassador, so I think it's fair to draw likely conclusions.

Jenson Button will be with us [in 2012]. There is nothing that needs to be sorted. He will be with us next year. We know that, he knows that. But we’re looking to do a deal that will see him race for McLaren for the rest of his career. [...] Jenson is a mature and very intelligent guy. And he is still as fit as a flea and still hungry to race. He could take on an ambassador’s role. We’re looking into GT racing and Le Mans and there’s no reason why he can’t use his experience in those projects.


Edited by SophieB, 16 May 2013 - 08:53.


#858 boost

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:04

Fantastic to see Honda back with Mclaran. :up:

#859 f1rules

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:05

Hold your horses guys


Honda Mclaren need succes more then a hotair ballon, with a big mouth, but cant extract the optimum from a car after god knows how many years. His asian girlfriend will not compensate for that

Edited by f1rules, 16 May 2013 - 09:08.


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#860 kar

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:07

Not a McLaren fan as is well known, but the reunion of Honda + McLaren is very exciting and a great thing for the sport.

The idea of a McLaren with a Honda turbo should make any fan of F1 very giddy.

#861 Rinehart

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:09

First of all they will need a driver of Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton level they IMHO do not have to be successful like back in the 90s :wave:


This has to be the most repeated piece of junk on this forum. Button has a title, same number as Kimi and Lewis in fact. Ferrari needed one of those drivers,
has Alonso brought them success? Has Hamilton shown at Mercedes he can transform their fortunes? Did Senna overcome the McLaren Peugeot?

Face it JB is just as capable as the other top guys of delivering in a TOP CAR. As Vettel has been showing... that'll be the key. Top drivers do not make a difference if the car isn't up to it.

I'm highly confident that McLaren and Honda can together build a top car.

#862 Disgrace

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:09

Good news. We need more engine manufacturers in F1.

#863 ElDictatore

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:10

First of all they will need a driver of Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton level they IMHO do not have to be successful like back in the 90s :wave:



Please don't make it about the drivers here. It's 2 years from now, anything can happen in the meantime and you never know which driver can adapt the best to turbo cars.

#864 EvanRainer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:12

Undeniably great news. Come on Macca, take the next step and get rid of the livery!

#865 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:16

The important question is WILL THEY BE RED AND WHITE????

Probably not. Those red and white colours were from Marlboro, their title sponsor at the time.

#866 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:16

Does Jenson have a valid contract for 2015 with McLaren?



I read headlines - Button buoyed by Honda return (probably Mercedes is holding him back, that's why) - looks like then he has plans to stay.

#867 Rinehart

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:17

I don't think it's known in public quite how long Jenson Button's deal with McLaren runs for. Back when he signed a new deal in 2011, he said mentioned something about how the contract gave him 'a couple of years' to concentrate on the team or something similar. However, before that deal was signed, Martin spoke in terms of wanting to retain him for the rest of his career and then moving him up to be some kind of McLaren ambassador, so I think it's fair to draw likely conclusions.


I can see JB being around at McLaren in 2015. He's probably peaked as a driver already, but I'm sure McLaren and Honda will massively value him as a driver to help them develop it into a winning combination - even if they ultimately have their eye on another hot-shoe to win. I'd say he's almost certain to be offered another contract now. Also Button also would still be more than capable of winning in a top car in 2015/16 I reckon. The question is will Button still be motivated in 2015/16? Maybe the process of developing a new winning package would be enough, and due to his GF I his popularity and legacy in Japan is v important to him. But he may not be bothered unless he can be fairly confident of at least race wins in 2015...

#868 fed up

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:20

Undeniably great news. Come on Macca, take the next step and get rid of the livery!


That's right - great news.

Honda were cr@p when they were last in F1 and haven't had the continuity of the likes of Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari.

Yes the news is good for Mclaren's cash flow but expect them to have wilderness years for the next 3/4 years while they bed in to their new relationship.

Good luck to them :cool:

#869 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:33

The important question is WILL THEY BE RED AND WHITE????


or will the car look like some honda lunatic decides (I think of 2007/8)

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 16 May 2013 - 09:33.


#870 F1ultimate

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:45

or will the car look like some honda lunatic decides (I think of 2007/8)


The horror: :cry:

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#871 wj_gibson

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:48

Given that this looks very much like the kind of tie-up Williams had with BMW (i.e. more than "just" an engine supplier), I think it certain that Honda's corporate colours will be the basis for the car's livery.

#872 LORDBYRON

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:56

I don't think they will be behind tbh , they already have 1.6 ENGINE running at the indy car I believe so it should be easy to use that as the base

the big Q is have they demanded a driver from japan

Edited by iii, 16 May 2013 - 10:00.


#873 WitnessX

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:00

That's right - great news.

Honda were cr@p when they were last in F1 and haven't had the continuity of the likes of Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari.

Yes the news is good for Mclaren's cash flow but expect them to have wilderness years for the next 3/4 years while they bed in to their new relationship.

Good luck to them :cool:

The problems came when Honda bought the team, it didn't really work until Brawn came in to sort it out.

This time they are just going to supply the "power train". The engine that they used in the car from 2007 onwards was the one that was used at the Japanese gp in 2006, IIRC it was aimed more towards "power" rather than torque. The subsequent rule changes and engine limiting just did not fit that engine as well as the others.

Just before Honda exited F1 they had applied to revise the engine.

In this case they have enough time and resources to create a power train from scratch which fit the 2015 F1 requirements optimally.

Edited by WitnessX, 16 May 2013 - 10:00.


#874 maverick69

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:02

Given that this looks very much like the kind of tie-up Williams had with BMW (i.e. more than "just" an engine supplier), I think it certain that Honda's corporate colours will be the basis for the car's livery.


Yep.

I think we'll see something akin to a Super Aguri - and partly because it harks back to the same colours they used last time out.



#875 Mrluke

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:06

I can see JB being around at McLaren in 2015. He's probably peaked as a driver already, but I'm sure McLaren and Honda will massively value him as a driver to help them develop it into a winning combination - even if they ultimately have their eye on another hot-shoe to win. I'd say he's almost certain to be offered another contract now. Also Button also would still be more than capable of winning in a top car in 2015/16 I reckon. The question is will Button still be motivated in 2015/16? Maybe the process of developing a new winning package would be enough, and due to his GF I his popularity and legacy in Japan is v important to him. But he may not be bothered unless he can be fairly confident of at least race wins in 2015...


You make a good point, Button has demonstrated beyond all doubt his ability to get teams to build winning cars. As he stated at this years launch "Mclaren have built the car exactly as I want it" (paraphrasing but its on autosport magazine front page)


#876 SunnyENTP

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:06

Am I the only one that does not see the fuss? Its like the emperors clothes. Everyone one getting giddy over a new engine supplier. I wish it was the Honda team returning to F1 so we can have more seats available to drivers. Nothing changes except some re-branding.

#877 maverick69

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:13

Whitmarsh: "Hi. Brixworth? Marting Whitmarsh here. That first engine you sent us. Seems a little off spec......."

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#878 paulrobs

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:18

Great news for McLaren and great news for F1! Good to see another engine manufacturer come in, especially one with the long-term pedigree of Honda (last stint as a constructor notwithstanding).

Few things sprang to mind when I heard this news today:

1. Mercedes may be quite reluctant to give too much away to McLaren next year knowing that McLaren and Honda will be working together next year on their 2015 car.
2. This probably makes McLaren's future look a whole lot better than it did when they were faced with paying for Merc engines/powertrains.
3. Honda will be 12 months behind the other powertrain (how I hate that word....) manufacturers. Doesn't matter how you look at it Merc, Renault and Ferrari will have 12 months more development, data and knowledge.
4. Got to be great for F1. More choice, more competition, each supplier having to supply maybe only three teams. All good really.
5. Honda can do what they do best leaving McLaren to do what they (used to) do best.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if they were all allowed free reign to develop 1500BHP quali specials with 1200BHP in the races again. Wow.

I agree with a recent post that McLaren really do need to sort out their strategy and race operations though.

Great news though, great news, no question.

Edited by paulrobs, 16 May 2013 - 10:19.


#879 ElDictatore

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:20

Am I the only one that does not see the fuss? Its like the emperors clothes. Everyone one getting giddy over a new engine supplier. I wish it was the Honda team returning to F1 so we can have more seats available to drivers. Nothing changes except some re-branding.


I think with the rule changes and new engine formula, there is the possibility for the engine to come more in focus in terms of difference between the engine suppliers.
I'm not really sure about the state of frozen engines either.

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#880 Dalton007

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:20

And the anti-Button comments start trickling in.

I suspect Button will finish his career at McLaren.

#881 fed up

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:23

The problems came when Honda bought the team, it didn't really work until Brawn came in to sort it out.

This time they are just going to supply the "power train". The engine that they used in the car from 2007 onwards was the one that was used at the Japanese gp in 2006, IIRC it was aimed more towards "power" rather than torque. The subsequent rule changes and engine limiting just did not fit that engine as well as the others.

Just before Honda exited F1 they had applied to revise the engine.

In this case they have enough time and resources to create a power train from scratch which fit the 2015 F1 requirements optimally.


You make good points but my overriding recollection of Honda's F1 involvement is littered with broken promises and sudden exit, team switches and broken promises.

This tie up reminds more of the Peugeout/Judd era than the earlier thirsty V12 era.

I hope it works out else Honda will make a swift exit at short notice as they've always done over the years.

#882 Clatter

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:24

Great news for McLaren and great news for F1! Good to see another engin manufacturer come in, especially one with the long-term pedigree of Honda (last stint as a constructir notwithstanding).

Few things sprang to mind when I heard this news today:

1. Mercedes may be quite reluctant to give too much away to McLaren next year knowing that McLaren and Honda will be working together next year on their 2015 car.
2. This probably makes McLaren's future look a whole lot better than it did when they were faced with paying for Merc engines/powertrains.
3. Honda will be 12 months behind the other powertrain (how I hate that word....) manufacturers. Doesn't matter how you look at it Merc. Renault and Ferrari will have 12 months more development, data and knowledge.
4. Got to be great for F1. More choice, more competition, each supplier having to supply maybe only three teams. All good really.
5. Honda can do what they do best leaving McLaren to do what they (used to) do best,

Woulndn't it be fantastic if they were allowed free reign to develop 1500BHP quali specials with 1200BHP in the races. Wow

I agree with a recent post that McLaren really do need to sort out their strategy and race operations though.

Great news though, great news, no question.


Honda will have the same amount of development time and their work won't be restricted by the homologation process. The only thing they will lack is the race data.

The more interesting part is not the ICE as I have no doubts about them producing as good or better engine than any of the manufacturers, but the ERS. That's the big unknown for everyone. Will Honda develop their own system or buy one in?


#883 WitnessX

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:26

You make a good point, Button has demonstrated beyond all doubt his ability to get teams to build winning cars. As he stated at this years launch "Mclaren have built the car exactly as I want it" (paraphrasing but its on autosport magazine front page)

Which was based on the car they presented to him in the simulator and not the one that appeared on the track wasn't it?

#884 peroa

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:29

Honda will have the same amount of development time and their work won't be restricted by the homologation process. The only thing they will lack is the race data.

The more interesting part is not the ICE as I have no doubts about them producing as good or better engine than any of the manufacturers, but the ERS. That's the big unknown for everyone. Will Honda develop their own system or buy one in?

And you don't think that is the crucial part?

Honda apparently has a lump on the dyno for some time so for me that is the first mistake they are making, they should've put all their effort into getting it on the 2014 grid.

#885 windtravels

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:33

great news. Excited to have Honda back in F1.

#886 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:34



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that was the horror, 2008 was a bit better (because I told them to add stripes and some words, I really did, it helped a bit maybe :smoking: )

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 16 May 2013 - 10:35.


#887 paulrobs

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:36

Yes, agreed. There is still no substitute for race mileage with the streeses and strains that go with that and the heat cycles and massively varying temperatures between all tracks and SC periods and having to drive slower to nurse tyres or some other problem etc. There'll be some race failures next year and design and manufacturing will be tweaked to fix that. Honda will be doing their tweaks through 2015 whereas the other suppliers will have done theirs through 2014. Ok, not quite that simplistic but there has to be an impact in joining the party twelve months late, there has to be. Honda will work very hard to minimise this bit it will be there.

#888 Timstr11

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:36

McLaren will learn from Mercedes' packaging and installation and they will also have race data. Surely lessons learned will help Honda for 2015 development. Not much Mercedes can do about that.

In any case this is great news.
I always felt that the Honda brand belongs in F1.
I started watching F1 when Senna was dominating in a McLaren Honda so I have very warm feelings for the brand.

#889 Lazy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:37

And the anti-Button comments start trickling in.

I suspect Button will finish his career at McLaren.

Don't worry, I suspect Nico will have taken over as hate figure by then :)

#890 Boing 2

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:38

3. Honda will be 12 months behind the other powertrain (how I hate that word....) manufacturers. Doesn't matter how you look at it Merc, Renault and Ferrari will have 12 months more development, data and knowledge.


They will be free to test all year in 2014 though, endless race simulations etc whilst other teams will be frozen.


#891 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:40

They will be free to test all year in 2014 though, endless race simulations etc whilst other teams will be frozen.


and they bought PURE knowledge (did they?),

2015 will be more unrestricted, power wars is on!

#892 Oho

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:51

And the anti-Button comments start trickling in.

I suspect Button will finish his career at McLaren.


Yes but can he afford to write off two seasons, which the switch might very well entail.

Edited by Oho, 16 May 2013 - 10:52.


#893 onewingedangel

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:53

Could McLaren supply a chassis to Honda as a development mule for 2014 without falling foul of testing restrictions?

Installation in a HPD LMP 1 or 2 chassis is probably the only option to get some on track running for the engine prior to 2015 winter testing - short of running in F1 badged as a Mugen on a second customer team (free engines for a year as a development partner?).

Edited by onewingedangel, 16 May 2013 - 10:54.


#894 Clatter

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:13

Could McLaren supply a chassis to Honda as a development mule for 2014 without falling foul of testing restrictions?

Installation in a HPD LMP 1 or 2 chassis is probably the only option to get some on track running for the engine prior to 2015 winter testing - short of running in F1 badged as a Mugen on a second customer team (free engines for a year as a development partner?).


As long as it's over 2 years old, then yes.

#895 Clatter

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:19

And you don't think that is the crucial part?

Honda apparently has a lump on the dyno for some time so for me that is the first mistake they are making, they should've put all their effort into getting it on the 2014 grid.


No, it is not the crucial point. Between themselves and Mac they have more than enough data to be able to design and build the engine. Everyone knew that Mac had a contract for 2014 already in place so it made no sense to rush the project and bring it in early with all the problems that might entail.


#896 Nobody

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:22

As long as it's over 2 years old, then yes.


A f*cken quick 27 it is :up:

#897 maverick69

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:23

The DW12 Indy Car could be a good option as a test mule too as they have experience with that chassis - it already runs a Honda V6 turbo. Parts would also be readily available.

Plenty of scope to piss about with the radiators, intercoolers etc....

Edited by maverick69, 16 May 2013 - 11:27.


#898 JRizzle86

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:34

surely McLaren must be facing a very tough 2014 then?


Not really

#899 lustigson

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:46

Could McLaren supply a chassis to Honda as a development mule for 2014 without falling foul of testing restrictions?


I don't think it would be too much for McLaren to supply a 2013 or even 2014 chassis, Honda badging it 'Honda' and using a team of McLaren personnel to run it around Suzuka 24/7.

McLaren and Honda stated that they have no plans to test together, though:

[McLaren managing director Jonathan] Neale also said that there were no current plans for McLaren and Honda to embark on any track testing in 2014, even though in theory they could do so with an old car that was not covered by the current testing regulations. "No, there are not plans for that at the moment," he said. "There are constraints in doing that. The whole issue of track testing is one that is going around in various quarters at the moment – but it is all up in the air right now. We don't currently have a plan to test."


Note the word 'currently'. ;)

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#900 juicy sushi

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:47

I don't think they will be behind tbh , they already have 1.6 ENGINE running at the indy car I believe so it should be easy to use that as the base

the big Q is have they demanded a driver from japan

IndyCar uses 2.2 litre V6's.