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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#51 MadYarpen

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:04

If they are too expensive, they are suffering. They'd benefit only if Honda V6T was at least as good as Merc and cheaper, simple.

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#52 Atreiu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:24

Honda as engine supplier, fine, as a constructor, no way.

#53 the9th

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:31

I think they're alluding to a possible comeback to give Kamui a fighting chance of finding a team.
Constructor? Last time round they were nothing but a glorified sponsor, like Mercedes are now. They build engines.

#54 midgrid

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 19:02

I'd love to read that piece. Got a link?


Here it is. But my mistake; it was Jonathan Noble who wrote it.


#55 BigCHrome

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 20:51

I think they're alluding to a possible comeback to give Kamui a fighting chance of finding a team.
Constructor? Last time round they were nothing but a glorified sponsor, like Mercedes are now. They build engines.


I doubt Honda are going to dive in and spend millions of dollars developing an engine just to keep an average driver who happens to be of the same nationality as them on the grid.

#56 the9th

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 21:05

I doubt Honda are going to dive in and spend millions of dollars developing an engine just to keep an average driver who happens to be of the same nationality as them on the grid.

No. But could raise some expectations, lure some teams or sponsors, and from there you never know. There are people at Honda who might be interested in a return. To the very top.

#57 korzeniow

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 21:07

I doubt Honda are going to dive in and spend millions of dollars developing an engine just to keep an average driver who happens to be of the same nationality as them on the grid.


Toyota -> Williams engine deal -> Nakajima :wave:

#58 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 21:13

That was just an engine supply deal. You know, when they were already in F1.

#59 the9th

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 21:17

In all fairness they put a team on the grid just so they could keep Sato in F1. :)
Honda << Super Aguri

Edited by the9th, 25 October 2012 - 21:18.


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#60 Myrvold

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 22:02

Satoru Nakajima?

#61 Talisman

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 17:36

In all fairness they put a team on the grid just so they could keep Sato in F1. :)


No they didn't.

#62 BootLace

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:34

No they didn't.


Possibly nothing in it, but nice if true:
https://www.facebook...g-F1/8913358557

#63 showtime

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 15:18

Racecar Engineering ‏@RacecarEngineer
Wolff claims 4th manufacturer to join F1, later comments suggested not Cosworth - we know who - http://bit.ly/PNOOo6


http://www.f1fanatic...cturer-join-f1/

Edited by showtime, 04 February 2013 - 16:27.


#64 onewingedangel

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:43

If Wolff knows for sure it is either through discussions Williams had with a potential partner or that a Mercedes customer team are not renewing their deal.

Could just as well be VW/Audi/Porche as Honda.

#65 Absulute

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:45

McLaren-Honda?



#66 10e10

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:48

McLaren-Honda?


Yes please! :love:

#67 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:51

Sauber Honda would be a very interesting one, and they showed they could 'do it' with the BMW years. Sauber is a pretty customiseable package at the moment.

#68 F1ultimate

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:53

McLaren-Honda?


That is the only way I see it. Honda would unlikely return unless they can secure a long term contract with a financially secure team like Mclaren.

#69 10e10

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 17:55

That is the only way I see it. Honda would unlikely return unless they can secure a long term contract with a financially secure team like Mclaren.


Also McLaren would get factory backup instead of being a costumer.

#70 muramasa

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 18:33

Racecar Engineering ‏@RacecarEngineer
Wolff claims 4th manufacturer to join F1, later comments suggested not Cosworth - we know who - http://bit.ly/PNOOo6


http://www.f1fanatic...cturer-join-f1/

I wonder why oct 12 article and today's put together :drunk:

Wolff merely says what anyone who's interested in F1 would say and gave no mention of specific manufacturer.


Anyway, as for Macca, actually current Macca-Merc is win-win situation, at least to me. Like it or not, Macca works as quite a good hedge for Merc, while Macca can take advantage of Merc brand image for various aspects and feel more secured about their long term commitment, at least for engine. For Macca to go for Honda is actually quite risky move, as their competitiveness and long term commitment will be a big question mark.


#71 Muz Bee

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:00

Honda return makes plenty of sense. The company built it's image on two wheels with racing. It built it's credibility in cars through racing. It's founder was a racing man. 2014 is a big year on the F1 horizon and Honda have been very low profile on motorsport for a few years now. Forget Japanese drivers and all that twaddle, Honda will want to step up now they have absorbed much of the economic shocks of the GFC. F1 in 2014 makes plenty of sense. A restless McLaren would make a great fit.

#72 onewingedangel

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:14

McLaren-Honda makes a lot of sense to me.

I could see, for example, McLaren building the new NSX - possibly with some shared components with the 12C.

And Honda could certainly do with selling a few more cars in a market as large as Mexico.

However, I have to question if McLaren would be best served by a pure engine supply deal - a joint venture would make more sense - so if the engine partner looks to withdraw, McLaren could still have use of the engine.

#73 HistoryFan

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:43

Sauber Honda would be a very interesting one, and they showed they could 'do it' with the BMW years. Sauber is a pretty customiseable package at the moment.


But Kaltenborn said Sauber only talks to Ferrari at the moment.

#74 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:45

Well then it must be impossible for them to ever use another engine.

#75 One

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:45

But Kaltenborn said Sauber only talks to Ferrari at the moment.

at the moment yes,... she was telling us true,... but now?
Jokes aside. I assume it will be long way before they comes back to the grid.

#76 V3TT3L

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:52

Isn't the future turbo F1 engines capable of doing LeMans 24 ?

That means Audi, Toyota and Honda engines could adapt to F1 with a few tweaks.

#77 chumma

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:39

McLaren Honda sounds very nostalgic and beautiful, but Honda's last F1 engines sucked. V6 Turbo's however, sounds right up their alley.

#78 10e10

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 00:49

McLaren Honda sounds very nostalgic and beautiful, but Honda's last F1 engines sucked. V6 Turbo's however, sounds right up their alley.


They might have not been the best during their final years, but they didn't sucked, they were great during the V10 days, and in their first V8 year as well, and maybe the chassis hide their true capability during their last years.

#79 NoDivergence

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:03

Actually, Honda and Toyota's V8's lost out on the whole "engine freeze" deal. Their engines were already slightly behind Ferrari and Mercedes and they obeyed to the letter the engine freeze. No "engine reliability" tweaks that added 30 hp in the end

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#80 George Costanza

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:09

Williams-Honda and McLaren-Honda would be amazing to see, or... Lotus-Honda?

It would be 1987 all over again...

Edited by George Costanza, 05 February 2013 - 03:10.


#81 BiH

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:38

Honda - McLaren tie up would be massive risk for McLaren, teams are already in deep development with 2014 engines. Honda would be far far behind.

Sauber or Williams sound like the only option.





#82 packapoo

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:59

Okay BiH, but just for the record where have McLaren announced their engine intentions from 2014?

I liked Ross's comment re Sauber/Honda. Interesting.........

For any racing team such as McLaren or Sauber surely it's in their best interests, if they are able to tie up a deal, to stay quiet about it; especially if they have been able to motivate a return to F1 of a one-time partner as supplier.

#83 lustigson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:04

Honda - McLaren tie up would be massive risk for McLaren, teams are already in deep development with 2014 engines. Honda would be far far behind.


Or McLaren know that Honda, like, Mercedes, have already run their new V6 turbo on the dyno, of course.

#84 F.M.

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:30

Honda - McLaren tie up would be massive risk for McLaren, teams are already in deep development with 2014 engines. Honda would be far far behind.

Sauber or Williams sound like the only option.

Rumours are Honda has already designed the engine

#85 SenorSjon

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:04

Honda - McLaren tie up would be massive risk for McLaren, teams are already in deep development with 2014 engines. Honda would be far far behind.

Sauber or Williams sound like the only option.

Why would it? The engine rules are so restrictive, I can't see much difference in the space the engine would take. V-angle, cilinder size, etc everything is regulated now.

#86 10e10

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:58

Or McLaren know that Honda, like, Mercedes, have already run their new V6 turbo on the dyno, of course.


:up:

That's a possibility! It could be Honda plan to playing it with low profile.

#87 lustigson

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:20

:up:

That's a possibility! It could be Honda plan to playing it with low profile.

It's even plausible, if you ask me. Remember, Volkswagen/Audi had a 3.0 litre V10 on the dyno during the 90s just to test what they could do with it and be ready to jump in when its board decided to do so. It's called preparation. ;)

Honda could (should?) very well do the same thing with the new 1.6 litre V6 turbo.

#88 Jejking

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:37

Isn't the future turbo F1 engines capable of doing LeMans 24 ?

That means Audi, Toyota and Honda engines could adapt to F1 with a few tweaks.

I doubt it, if Le Mans goes balls out they cover more than 5000 km. An F1 car, I estimated, does about 900 km every GP weekend and has to live on for about 3 races on average, so that would make about 2700 kilometers (which is astonishingly better than all the kamikaze units who were used in the eighties for an hour max, or some sessions at the end of the nineties). That's a far cry from 5000 km still so unless there will be going some serious work in the reliability department without sacrificing performance, and engine changes are not allowed during the 24H of LM, an F1 engine won't last the distance (Sat 16h - Sun 16h) :)

#89 sock22

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:58

I doubt it, if Le Mans goes balls out they cover more than 5000 km. An F1 car, I estimated, does about 900 km every GP weekend and has to live on for about 3 races on average, so that would make about 2700 kilometers (which is astonishingly better than all the kamikaze units who were used in the eighties for an hour max, or some sessions at the end of the nineties). That's a far cry from 5000 km still so unless there will be going some serious work in the reliability department without sacrificing performance, and engine changes are not allowed during the 24H of LM, an F1 engine won't last the distance (Sat 16h - Sun 16h) :)

I believe the new engines have to last around five races, which takes them up much closer to Le Mans mileage

#90 Victor_RO

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:06

I believe the new engines have to last around five races, which takes them up much closer to Le Mans mileage


Still about 1000-1500 km short (or in time terms, somewhere between 5 and 7 hours short) of a full Le Mans duty cycle (4 hours of qualifying running on Thursday + Saturday warm-up + the race, teams generally run the whole of Thursday with their race engines).

#91 sock22

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:13

Still about 1000-1500 km short (or in time terms, somewhere between 5 and 7 hours short) of a full Le Mans duty cycle (4 hours of qualifying running on Thursday + Saturday warm-up + the race, teams generally run the whole of Thursday with their race engines).

Indeed, you wouldn't be able to run a 2014 F1 engine at Le Mans but I think its close enough that there would be a significant overlap in technology and design. I don't have any technical knowledge though, so I'm happy to be proven wrong on this.

#92 Victor_RO

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:17

Depends, LMP1 engines for 2014 are relatively free, the restrictions are that it has to be a 4-stroke piston engine, there is a fuel flow limit/rpm curve similar to F1 (but tighter), and some restrictions regarding turbocharger technologies. Also, energy recovery systems are allowed to store up to 8 MJ of energy and the other limitation is under what conditions the energy is recovered (i.e. how much braking force).

#93 10e10

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:22

It's even plausible, if you ask me. Remember, Volkswagen/Audi had a 3.0 litre V10 on the dyno during the 90s just to test what they could do with it and be ready to jump in when its board decided to do so. It's called preparation.;)

Honda could (should?) very well do the same thing with the new 1.6 litre V6 turbo.


And I bet that Honda isn't the only one preparing for an eventual engine deal for 2014 and beyond.

#94 BRG

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 20:26

I doubt it, if Le Mans goes balls out they cover more than 5000 km. An F1 car, I estimated, does about 900 km every GP weekend and has to live on for about 3 races on average, so that would make about 2700 kilometers (which is astonishingly better than all the kamikaze units who were used in the eighties for an hour max, or some sessions at the end of the nineties). That's a far cry from 5000 km still so unless there will be going some serious work in the reliability department without sacrificing performance, and engine changes are not allowed during the 24H of LM, an F1 engine won't last the distance (Sat 16h - Sun 16h) :)

That's what they said about the DFV - until it won at Le Mans.

Remember that these new units will not run at astronomic revs any more and should be easy to prepare for endurance use.

#95 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 21:03

Last weekend, a Civic with Honda's new turbine engine "HR412E" debuted in WTCC, Suzuka round.
But it was 1.6l but an inline-4 engine, not V6.

At least VW didn't go racing with their twincharger 1.4.
If lesiurely-driven road car Golfs routinely have two or three engine replacements in the warranty period, imagine how unreliable the race car would be :eek:
If efficiency and technology more important than indestructibility in the field of A to B mundane transportation - that is the question. :yawnface:

I don't understand this WTCC / BTCC business. Frankly, it's stupid. They should have the same rules, like in Super Touring era.
JAS and Team Dynamik should have the choice to get along and use the same chassis to cut costs. Doesn't make sense.
Oh well so there are must, inefficiently, be two versions of the "hunchback hatchback"* I guess. *Maybe VeeDubs who look like they were designed 10-15 years ago are more stylish A-to-B vehicles. :confused:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 07 February 2013 - 21:04.


#96 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 21:11

Honda - McLaren tie up would be massive risk for McLaren, teams are already in deep development with 2014 engines.

It's no risk at all.

Posted Image

You can't continue to use an engine from a major rival team. What if Hamilton and Button take the WDC to the last few rounds and Button has an engine failure (or two)? There will be a conspiracy.

Far better to be the works Honda team. Even with the NSX, it is not a rival to McLaren supercars. It would be no different to Lotus-Honda or Lotus-Lamborghini (Lambos being more high-end, than the humble Lotus sportscars) tie-ups.

#97 One

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 21:14

Rumours are Honda has already designed the engine

And sold the design to Mclaren?

#98 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 21:37

You can't continue to use an engine from a major rival team. What if Hamilton and Button take the WDC to the last few rounds and Button has an engine failure (or two)? There will be a conspiracy.


You can never stop stupid.

#99 Owen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 21:43

There seem to be a lot of rumours surrounding where McLaren get their engines from tonight?! There's no solid basis in this or the cosworth story as far as I can see though.

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#100 10e10

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:09

There seem to be a lot of rumours surrounding where McLaren get their engines from tonight?! There's no solid basis in this or the cosworth story as far as I can see though.


Many see the Mercedes partnership coming to an end, maybe it was reawaken by the fuel pump failures on the McLaren.