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Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


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#1151 Force Ten

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:13

Honda builds car, bike, boat, and airplane and so on, good amount of vehicles that they can apply their engine technology, but they are not engine builder.


Ahem

"Honda has been the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer since 1959,[4][5] as well as the world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines measured by volume, producing more than 14 million internal combustion engines each year."

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#1152 JRizzle86

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:14

It's based on a Nissan lump. It's a badged engine and not really built by Mac.


It is racing engine design bought by McLaren, modified by McLaren and Ricardo in conjunction and manufactured by Riccardo. However you put it, it is a McLaren engine.

Edited by JRizzle86, 23 May 2013 - 07:15.


#1153 Owen

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:26

Honda will benefit from Merc F1 work
http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular

#1154 One

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:43

Honda will benefit from Merc F1 work
http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular



Mercedes and Brawn has benefited from HONDA's work. Brawn especially won the title.

Honda was elegant enough to keep silent. ON the contrary Brits and Germans are like barking loser dogs and have to complain that Honda works with Mclaren now.


#1155 One

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:49

Ahem

"Honda has been the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer since 1959,[4][5] as well as the world's largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines measured by volume, producing more than 14 million internal combustion engines each year."


Ah... Childish finger pointing on the most uninteresting details.

At this point I have to say this is going nowhere.

Honda build not only engine but vehicles of different kind successfully. Neither that they only sells engines. Therefore Honda is not just a engine builder, but Honda is a vehicle builder, if you like.

Logic behinds calling Honda engine builder is that Honda now should be modest and supply engines to Mclaren free. This inherent logic says that Honda should not have an ambition to build their own f1 car as they are ENGINE BUILDER.

\ON the contrary, I say HOnda should build F1 car on their ow, the last outing was failure because Honda was dependent on the wrong specialists like David Richards, and all the incapable engineers. Richard especially applied psycho intricate talks to Takuma and made him think that he is wrong.

#1156 Force Ten

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:59

\ON the contrary, I say HOnda should build F1 car on their ow, the last outing was failure because Honda was dependent on the wrong specialists like David Richards, and all the incapable engineers. Richard especially applied psycho intricate talks to Takuma and made him think that he is wrong.

This post should get some sort of an award.

#1157 muramasa

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:34

Honda was elegant enough to keep silent. ON the contrary Brits and Germans are like barking loser dogs and have to complain that Honda works with Mclaren now.

:lol: :lol:
come on, knowing your character I can overlook or actually enjoy it, but those who dont should take it as negative/offensive then they cannot be blamed .

btw it's French who's complaining there :p

Honda build not only engine but vehicles of different kind successfully. Neither that they only sells engines. Therefore Honda is not just a engine builder, but Honda is a vehicle builder, if you like.

Logic behinds calling Honda engine builder is that Honda now should be modest and supply engines to Mclaren free. This inherent logic says that Honda should not have an ambition to build their own f1 car as they are ENGINE BUILDER.

you have a point but same can be said to Renault who chose to go opportunist and fairweather.
As stated by many incl me previously, doing F1 team now just doesnt fit most of manufacturers. Ferrari is unique, and Merc has its own strategy. For most manufacturers it's just too expensive and irrelevant. It's not difficult to see.

\ON the contrary, I say HOnda should build F1 car on their ow, the last outing was failure because Honda was dependent on the wrong specialists like David Richards, and all the incapable engineers. Richard especially applied psycho intricate talks to Takuma and made him think that he is wrong.

Heyyy they went downward after replacing Richards and Willis with Fry and Nakamoto! Nakamoto's appointment is by far the worst and easiest&clearest to see. (in honour of Nakamoto, he's top engine/bike engineer)
I dont know about Richards and Takuma much but didnt Richard favor Takuma quite abit?



#1158 darkkis

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:53

Now that Honda is coming back to F1 will we get lawn mowers with ERS. :lol:

#1159 Clatter

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 13:49

It is racing engine design bought by McLaren, modified by McLaren and Ricardo in conjunction and manufactured by Riccardo. However you put it, it is a McLaren engine.


Modified by Ricardo and badged as a Mclaren. In terms of a comparison with the likes of Ferrari Mclaren do not build their own engine, but thats just my opinion and your welcome to view it differently.


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#1160 One

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 14:18

Now that Honda is coming back to F1 will we get lawn mowers with ERS. :lol:

:up:

#1161 One

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 14:20

:lol: :lol:
come on, knowing your character I can overlook or actually enjoy it, but those who dont should take it as negative/offensive then they cannot be blamed .

btw it's French who's complaining there :p


you have a point but same can be said to Renault who chose to go opportunist and fairweather.
As stated by many incl me previously, doing F1 team now just doesnt fit most of manufacturers. Ferrari is unique, and Merc has its own strategy. For most manufacturers it's just too expensive and irrelevant. It's not difficult to see.


Heyyy they went downward after replacing Richards and Willis with Fry and Nakamoto! Nakamoto's appointment is by far the worst and easiest&clearest to see. (in honour of Nakamoto, he's top engine/bike engineer)
I dont know about Richards and Takuma much but didnt Richard favor Takuma quite abit?


Actually Nakamoto did well at MotoGP.

And yes, I am a believer of British engineers. Only that Honda goes above them. :clap: (IMHO)

#1162 One

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 14:20

This post should get some sort of an award.

:lol:

#1163 ElDictatore

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 14:54

Actually Nakamoto did well at MotoGP.

And yes, I am a believer of British engineers. Only that Honda goes above them. :clap: (IMHO)


A bit OT but seeing how they do at Formula Student, one has actually to worry.

EDIT: not that FS is a sole indicator of a nations engineering capability, but it IS something.

Edited by ElDictatore, 23 May 2013 - 14:56.


#1164 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 15:52

A bit OT but seeing how they do at Formula Student, one has actually to worry.

EDIT: not that FS is a sole indicator of a nations engineering capability, but it IS something.


I can't speak for other universities, but mine (University of Southampton) was more concerned about producing more Adrian Neweys than caring one jot about FS. It probably pays off too, as it is still ranked top for getting engineers into F1.

#1165 juicy sushi

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 16:41

Heyyy they went downward after replacing Richards and Willis with Fry and Nakamoto! Nakamoto's appointment is by far the worst and easiest&clearest to see. (in honour of Nakamoto, he's top engine/bike engineer)

I think Nakamoto was a classic "peter principle" moment. He was clearly not suited to that role and had no chance of succeeding. Still, we shall see what 2015 brings.

#1166 FerrariV12

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 16:57

Ah... Childish finger pointing on the most uninteresting details.

At this point I have to say this is going nowhere.

Honda build not only engine but vehicles of different kind successfully. Neither that they only sells engines. Therefore Honda is not just a engine builder, but Honda is a vehicle builder, if you like.

Logic behinds calling Honda engine builder is that Honda now should be modest and supply engines to Mclaren free. This inherent logic says that Honda should not have an ambition to build their own f1 car as they are ENGINE BUILDER.

\ON the contrary, I say HOnda should build F1 car on their ow, the last outing was failure because Honda was dependent on the wrong specialists like David Richards, and all the incapable engineers. Richard especially applied psycho intricate talks to Takuma and made him think that he is wrong.


I don't really care whether or not Honda as a corporation could be called a vehicle or engine builder, but as far as F1 specifically goes, I think their history (not just 2006-2009, but also 1964-1968) shows they are better when sticking to engines than trying to do the whole thing by themselves. Not just specific to Honda either. Renault, BMW, Ford, all better records when supplying teams with engines rather than running their own. If it wasn't for their 1950s records Alfa Romeo and (to date) Mercedes would be in the same boat also.

Edited by FerrariV12, 24 May 2013 - 16:58.


#1167 10e10

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 23:46

Martin Whitmarsh Q&A: 2013 McLaren needs to be a works team

It was a very important announcement for McLaren. I had the good fortune of working together with Honda in the late 1980s and early 1990s and won world championships, so I know their passion for motor racing. I have to say that we have a tremendous partner at the moment with Mercedes and it is obvious that they have a long and successful racing culture and passion. There are not many other automotive companies that have that level, but I would say that Honda is definitely there. For us - for our business model - we needed to have a relationship with an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) - we need to be a works team. It’s been a challenge for the last few years as we progressively came away from being a works team - something that was surrounded by much speculation - so the Honda partnership is fantastic news for us and it is good for Formula One. Honda will be around for a long, long time - they have an absolute commitment for staying. They will be with us initially, but they will be with others at some point as well. Formula One needs automotive companies that are passionate about the technology, passionate about the challenge and passionate about racing the way Honda is.


The thoughts about the importance of being a "works team" from 2014 onward were right. I guess that next year will be a "learning" year for McLaren.

#1168 Clatter

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 10:13

Martin Whitmarsh Q&A: 2013 McLaren needs to be a works team



The thoughts about the importance of being a "works team" from 2014 onward were right. I guess that next year will be a "learning" year for McLaren.


It will be a learning year for every team. Too much is being made of the possible knowledge transfer, you would think that no team has ever changed engine supplier.

#1169 muramasa

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:52

Honda will be around for a long, long time - they have an absolute commitment for staying.

he he i hope so, coz in terms of sudden quitting or change of mind, Honda is by far the best. :cat: :cool:


#1170 Talisman

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:41

I don't really care whether or not Honda as a corporation could be called a vehicle or engine builder, but as far as F1 specifically goes, I think their history (not just 2006-2009, but also 1964-1968) shows they are better when sticking to engines than trying to do the whole thing by themselves.


It says a lot too that in all four entries Honda has tried to do so as an engine supplier only. The first time in '64 they were planning to supply Cooper and hastily developed the chassis when that deal fell through. In 2000 they decided building a chassis with Postlethwaite was too risky and again resorted to supplying engines only. Their gradual increase in involvement in BAR was largely forced by having to overcome technical deficiencies at that team and finally having to buy it to prevent the team from simply disappearing as BAT had to offload it.

#1171 muramasa

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:50


Honda held follow-up PC on their F1 project last week (14 Jun), bit old, not sure reported in EN but some interesting bits;

- they merely started basic design of the engine now

- they expect to start running actual engine in this autumn. But it will take more time to complete and set up whole power unit

- atm they consider testing on rigs and simulator is more suited and effective, rather than doing it on test car, as main development method

- they're in charge of whole ERS unit. Some components like MGU-H will be developed in corporation with other supplier (cannot be named atm)

- There're some common factors b/w F1 engine and new Super Formula and SuperGT engine (direct injection turbo that will be used in the series from next year and start running soon), so there will be intr coorporation in development process on those common elements.

- Development will be done in Japan, but they're considering setting up maintainance base in Europe and evaluating candidates for it right now.

- they're consulted by Gilles Simon, getting advise on regs interpretation and exchanging updates etc. There's speculation that he's with Honda and working in R&D, but that's not the case.

- driver selection will be done with Mclaren. have desire for japanese driver, but their main objective is to win, so consider drivers as one of elements that enable them to achieve the objective.

- Honda approached Mclaren after they made up their mind to return F1 (circa Feb/mar). They only talked with Mclaren.

- they aim to win as well as to continue as long as possible

- 2015 will be Mclaren only. They're considering customer supply from 2016.

- excited about possibility and challenge of energy recovery system, and want to develop so as to feed back to consumer vehicles

- nothing is decided on any tieup with Mclaren's roadcar division. will consider if there's proposal

- "the decision (to return to F1) has been done not by top-down fashion, but by being motivated by passion at R&D. R&D always wants to do F1, there's alot of staff who want to do F1, and their passion finally persuaded and overcome the board, sort of. You can never win by top-down, as it's always staff at the scene who work on it, develop and fight."



#1172 Timstr11

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:08

- "the decision (to return to F1) has been done not by top-down fashion, but by being motivated by passion at R&D. R&D always wants to do F1, there's alot of staff who want to do F1, and their passion finally persuaded and overcome the board, sort of. You can never win by top-down, as it's always staff at the scene who work on it, develop and fight."

Good old Honda with their R&D lead culture.


#1173 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:11

Honda held follow-up PC on their F1 project last week (14 Jun), bit old, not sure reported in EN but some interesting bits;

- they merely started basic design of the engine now

- they expect to start running actual engine in this autumn. But it will take more time to complete and set up whole power unit

- atm they consider testing on rigs and simulator is more suited and effective, rather than doing it on test car, as main development method

- they're in charge of whole ERS unit. Some components like MGU-H will be developed in corporation with other supplier (cannot be named atm)

- There're some common factors b/w F1 engine and new Super Formula and SuperGT engine (direct injection turbo that will be used in the series from next year and start running soon), so there will be intr coorporation in development process on those common elements.

- Development will be done in Japan, but they're considering setting up maintainance base in Europe and evaluating candidates for it right now.

- they're consulted by Gilles Simon, getting advise on regs interpretation and exchanging updates etc. There's speculation that he's with Honda and working in R&D, but that's not the case.

- driver selection will be done with Mclaren. have desire for japanese driver, but their main objective is to win, so consider drivers as one of elements that enable them to achieve the objective.

- Honda approached Mclaren after they made up their mind to return F1 (circa Feb/mar). They only talked with Mclaren.

- they aim to win as well as to continue as long as possible

- 2015 will be Mclaren only. They're considering customer supply from 2016.

- excited about possibility and challenge of energy recovery system, and want to develop so as to feed back to consumer vehicles

- nothing is decided on any tieup with Mclaren's roadcar division. will consider if there's proposal

- "the decision (to return to F1) has been done not by top-down fashion, but by being motivated by passion at R&D. R&D always wants to do F1, there's alot of staff who want to do F1, and their passion finally persuaded and overcome the board, sort of. You can never win by top-down, as it's always staff at the scene who work on it, develop and fight."

muramasa, would you know if the research is being conducted at Utsunomiya center, or they haven't elaborated on that topic?

Edited by Sakae, 22 June 2013 - 12:22.


#1174 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:21

Good old Honda with their R&D lead culture.

Whilst I am not sure what the situation is today, but a few years back I was attending a seminar in Mexico which was sponsored by GM, and over there GM guys told me that through their benchmarking best transmission/power plant, actually was made by Nissan. Independent confirmation came from guys in Jatco (@Fuji). Research is done by suppliers mostly. The car is designed and assembled by the automaker. Very few do their own thing.

#1175 muramasa

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:45

muramasa, would you know if the research is being conducted at Utsunomiya center, or they haven't elaborated on that topic?

yea should be so. There're number of Honda R&D in Japan, but notably Tochigi and Wakoh for 4 wheels and that is what "do it in Japan" shud mean in this context.


#1176 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:15

Good old Honda with their R&D lead culture.

Sure their powertrains in European Accord/Acura TSX, Honda Civic etc were very competitive... in 2003.;)

Honestly, they have made almost no changes to their major road car powertrains for around 10 years or more.

Let's be honest... they are/have fallen behind and will need to catch up. So far there has been a reluctance to use direction injection and turbos on road car petrol engines, no doubt they will come to market with that, when it is as reliable and robust as the traditional designs. At the end the day Honda are correct, 2 less mpg and a car that works, is better than a car that doesn't however "smart" VW think they are. :) (VW think it is OK that some twinchager Golf/Jetta need as many 4 engines in the space of 50,000 miles ! and however many more going into the future... That's far outweighs any enviromental advantages of 10% better fuel economy. Most buyers do not think the engine should be a consumable/disposable part likes brakes or tyres !!)

#1177 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:37

For years effort was focused on gimmicks (sorry for that), like bogus concepts of hybrids just to cut on consumption, whereas Germany focused more on diesel-solution to growing prices of oil. Today research is focused on energy alternatives, like "better battery". BMW has some electrical models behind curtain we hear are pretty good, and almost as powerful as gas powered cars. Suppliers like Bosch are teaming up with Mitsubishi and GS Yuasa to develop lithium-ion batteries (with target of 400 km). That's the nature of research for most (I am aware off).

One can only wonder what is Honda working on, but they are desperately looking for greater exposure in China and other developing markets. Honda's name on McLaren might give them that visibility.

#1178 Talisman

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:53

For years effort was focused on gimmicks (sorry for that), like bogus concepts of hybrids just to cut on consumption, whereas Germany focused more on diesel-solution to growing prices of oil.


I think the German and French focus on Diesels sadly shows how parochial they are in mindset.

There is only one market in the world where Diesels cars are a big player, thats Europe. Those car makers that are highly dependent on that single market have to produce good Diesels. Those that aren't reliant on that market tend to see Diesels as an afterthought, hence why Japanese and American based makers tend not to have a strong Diesel line-up. The problem with investing so much money on Diesels is that Europe as a market is becoming less and less important, this trend will only continue as India also emerges as a big car market so the return on investment will only keep falling.

Now look at the biggest car markets in the world, the US and China. Both countries are currently highly dependent on imported oil and are keen to reduce consumption in order to reduce reliance on the Middle East and improve trade balances. Neither country is interested in Diesel cars. Does the Japanese focus on hybrid petrol cars seem gimmicky when you start thinking that their products tick a lot of boxes for both markets to the extent that the American right wing proclaim the Toyota Prius as the American patriot's car of choice?

Also have you heard of fuel cell technology? If so perhaps you might want to find out where Honda stands in this field....

One can only wonder what is Honda working on, but they are desperately looking for greater exposure in China and other developing markets. Honda's name on McLaren might give them that visibility.


Noone invests in F1 for greater exposure in China, they have shown over the past decade that they are barely aware that such a sport exists at all. Unfortunately for Honda the fact that they are Japanese is likely to dictate how sales in China go more than any advertising campaign or the quality of their products.

#1179 WitnessX

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:58

..

- they're in charge of whole ERS unit. Some components like MGU-H will be developed in corporation with other supplier (cannot be named atm)

..

Interesting phrase "in charge".

They have been actively working with Zytek recently on a number of projects. One of them being the "Honda CR-Z GT Hybrid".
<First-Win-For-Honda-Zytek-ERS-at-Sepang>

It would make more sense to me to continue that relationship (it appears to be working ok) than to go another way.

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#1180 Talisman

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 14:07

- they merely started basic design of the engine now

- they expect to start running actual engine in this autumn. But it will take more time to complete and set up whole power unit


What I would love to know is if Honda R/D had designed and built a F1-ish engine already once the new rules had come out and hence aren't starting from zero, or if they haven't done any prior work at all.

With their WTCC engine Honda R/D had designed an engine already that was in the spirit of the new FIA regulations but wasn't legal, it needed a little redesign before it could be raced legally but nothing significant. I'd be a little surprised if Honda R/D hadn't already tried to build an engine that was vaguely but not completely compliant with the 2014 F1 engine regs way before the company officially looked into entering F1

#1181 Mrluke

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 14:12

What I would love to know is if Honda R/D had designed and built a F1-ish engine already once the new rules had come out and hence aren't starting from zero, or if they haven't done any prior work at all.

With their WTCC engine Honda R/D had designed an engine already that was in the spirit of the new FIA regulations but wasn't legal, it needed a little redesign before it could be raced legally but nothing significant. I'd be a little surprised if Honda R/D hadn't already tried to build an engine that was vaguely but not completely compliant with the 2014 F1 engine regs way before the company officially looked into entering F1


I would have thought so. Honda will want to know that they can be competitive before they commit to producing engines.

#1182 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 16:02

I think the German and French focus on Diesels sadly shows how parochial they are in mindset.

There is only one market in the world where Diesels cars are a big player, thats Europe. Those car makers that are highly dependent on that single market have to produce good Diesels. Those that aren't reliant on that market tend to see Diesels as an afterthought, hence why Japanese and American based makers tend not to have a strong Diesel line-up. The problem with investing so much money on Diesels is that Europe as a market is becoming less and less important, this trend will only continue as India also emerges as a big car market so the return on investment will only keep falling.

Now look at the biggest car markets in the world, the US and China. Both countries are currently highly dependent on imported oil and are keen to reduce consumption in order to reduce reliance on the Middle East and improve trade balances. Neither country is interested in Diesel cars. Does the Japanese focus on hybrid petrol cars seem gimmicky when you start thinking that their products tick a lot of boxes for both markets to the extent that the American right wing proclaim the Toyota Prius as the American patriot's car of choice?

Also have you heard of fuel cell technology? If so perhaps you might want to find out where Honda stands in this field....



Noone invests in F1 for greater exposure in China, they have shown over the past decade that they are barely aware that such a sport exists at all. Unfortunately for Honda the fact that they are Japanese is likely to dictate how sales in China go more than any advertising campaign or the quality of their products.

Diesel "in EU" is a transitional medium from gas to something else, and that something else is yet to be defined as "final" answer to gasoline powered cars. To identify EU as a "single market for diesel" is very strange point of view but so be it; this is not a forum for discussing that. Some choose hybrids (which is a terrible solution), others went for more painless, and still effective and proven way how to cross that bridge. You are mentioning Toyota - well, good advertising is performing miracles, that's what I see, but my view unfortunately remains unchanged about that technology. Canada and US have "dirty" diesel, which is slowly changing, maybe not fast enough, and some layers of energy sector and businesses made sure it stays that way.

I am not sure if I touched nerve about Honda with you, but I am not attacking Honda research at all, but admitting that I have no idea these days what it is they are researching. Fuel cell is being researched more than just Honda. Mercedes-Benz Canada launched small investment in automated fuel cell production and technology development facility in Canada. (Ford Motor and Nissan have joined). Is that where is world heading? I am not sure, but fight for supremacy in automotive technologies continues, as it should. It is good for all of us. Fuel cell meanwhile made inroads to smaller markets (forklifts in factories, and similar), but that is not what we are discussing here, I think.

Noone invests in F1 for greater brand recognition? That will be news to boys in Stuttgart then, I assure you. Can you explain why Infinity went into all that trouble and wants their name on RB car? In US they have saying: race on Sunday, sell on Monday; ever heard of it? I am not expert in that field, but shift of focus by Japan on Asia has been dully noted some time ago, and now we are watching how it is done.

Edited by Sakae, 22 June 2013 - 16:04.


#1183 V3TT3L

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 16:28

- driver selection will be done with Mclaren. have desire for japanese driver, but their main objective is to win, so consider drivers as one of elements that enable them to achieve the objective.

:confused: I wonder how the process would be.

#1184 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 16:39

:confused: I wonder how the process would be.

I think Honda is saying to McLaren - we wish that you leave no stone unturned to ensure that you find a Japanese candidate for a ride, and if possible at all, get him, but, if not, we will yield to your choice as our second option. :D (Joking).

#1185 Talisman

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 17:25

To identify EU as a "single market for diesel" is very strange point of view but so be it;


Not at all, please tell me which other market in the world where Diesel is so popular?

Noone invests in F1 for greater brand recognition? That will be news to boys in Stuttgart then, I assure you. Can you explain why Infinity went into all that trouble and wants their name on RB car? In US they have saying: race on Sunday, sell on Monday; ever heard of it? I am not expert in that field, but shift of focus by Japan on Asia has been dully noted some time ago, and now we are watching how it is done.


I didn't say "Noone invests in F1 for greater brand recognition" though did I? I said "Noone invests in F1 for greater brand recognition IN CHINA". The last two words in that sentence are all important and the rest of my paragraph on that topic explains it all.

#1186 Lemans

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:12

@muramasa, thanks for the post.


#1187 10e10

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 00:09

Honda held follow-up PC on their F1 project last week (14 Jun), bit old, not sure reported in EN but some interesting bits;

- they merely started basic design of the engine now

- they expect to start running actual engine in this autumn. But it will take more time to complete and set up whole power unit

- atm they consider testing on rigs and simulator is more suited and effective, rather than doing it on test car, as main development method

- they're in charge of whole ERS unit. Some components like MGU-H will be developed in corporation with other supplier (cannot be named atm)

- There're some common factors b/w F1 engine and new Super Formula and SuperGT engine (direct injection turbo that will be used in the series from next year and start running soon), so there will be intr coorporation in development process on those common elements.

- Development will be done in Japan, but they're considering setting up maintainance base in Europe and evaluating candidates for it right now.

- they're consulted by Gilles Simon, getting advise on regs interpretation and exchanging updates etc. There's speculation that he's with Honda and working in R&D, but that's not the case.

- driver selection will be done with Mclaren. have desire for japanese driver, but their main objective is to win, so consider drivers as one of elements that enable them to achieve the objective.

- Honda approached Mclaren after they made up their mind to return F1 (circa Feb/mar). They only talked with Mclaren.

- they aim to win as well as to continue as long as possible

- 2015 will be Mclaren only. They're considering customer supply from 2016.

- excited about possibility and challenge of energy recovery system, and want to develop so as to feed back to consumer vehicles

- nothing is decided on any tieup with Mclaren's roadcar division. will consider if there's proposal

- "the decision (to return to F1) has been done not by top-down fashion, but by being motivated by passion at R&D. R&D always wants to do F1, there's alot of staff who want to do F1, and their passion finally persuaded and overcome the board, sort of. You can never win by top-down, as it's always staff at the scene who work on it, develop and fight."


Thanks for the update!


#1188 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:10

One can only wonder what is Honda working on, but they are desperately looking for greater exposure in China and other developing markets.

Name one other market where not only Volkswagen are popular but Buick... Buick! The same Opel designs that are considered second-rate rubbish in Europe compared to superior VW and Ford designs!

100% about car culture and early entry into that market.

Nothing to do with the quality of VW and Buick cars over and above other cars that are sold in China IMO. :)

Toyota and Honda still do not fare too bad there anyhow, it is the domestic makers like Chery and Great Wall that are a joke with poor sales even in their home country.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 23 June 2013 - 03:10.


#1189 2ms

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:29

Skeptical of McL's chances of being as competitive with Honda. They had an edge when they were a motorcycle engine company that had relatively recently moved to cars, since F1 engines were a lot more like motorcycle engines with more cylinders than they were like automotive engines. But now the companies like Mercedes, VAG, basically everyone, has stolen a big lead in direct injection auto engines, which is what these v6es are much more similar to.

Good luck to McL trying to stay competitive with Mercedes engined cars using the company who possibly made the worst engine in F1 when they left 4 years ago and who are 2 years behind everyone else on making these new ones. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to keep things in perspective.

#1190 shonguiz

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:21

In 2015 won't the engines be already freezed , isn't that a huge disadvantage ?

#1191 MTC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:25

- Development will be done in Japan, but they're considering setting up maintainance base in Europe and evaluating candidates for it right now.


Will the engines be built in Japan too or built and maintained in the European base?

#1192 Clatter

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:51

In 2015 won't the engines be already freezed , isn't that a huge disadvantage ?


No. The freeze kicks in in 2018, but what changes can be made is gradually reduced each year until then. It could be a disadvantage, but I don't think it will be a huge one. What it does do is put pressure on any other manufacturer who might be considering joining.

#1193 Sakae

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:43

Name one other market where not only Volkswagen are popular but Buick... Buick! The same Opel designs that are considered second-rate rubbish in Europe compared to superior VW and Ford designs!

100% about car culture and early entry into that market.

Nothing to do with the quality of VW and Buick cars over and above other cars that are sold in China IMO. :)

Toyota and Honda still do not fare too bad there anyhow, it is the domestic makers like Chery and Great Wall that are a joke with poor sales even in their home country.

I am not sure why we are discussing VW in here, or what's you problem with this company, but I wish to close this issue with following Wiki-quote:

Volkswagen Group China is the largest, earliest, and the most successful international partner in China's Automotive Industry[citation needed]. It started its connection with China as early as in 1978, and has been taking the leading position in the Chinese automotive market for more than 25 years. Its first joint venture in China, Shanghai Volkswagen Automotive Co., Ltd., was established in October 1984. The second joint venture, FAW-Volkswagen Automotive Company Ltd. was established in Changchun in February 1991.

_____________

I do not drive VW, but my own very first car was Audi, crossed Africa with it as a happy trekker, and without problems.

Edited by Sakae, 23 June 2013 - 10:43.


#1194 Sakae

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:11

Not at all, please tell me which other market in the world where Diesel is so popular?


Diesel is a transitional medium, I thought that this point was made earlier without ambiguity. You need a few things to make it in the market with diesel cars; automaker who makes diesel cars (mostly EU - for decades), and clean diesel, and not too many countries have that. It's too late to develop new markets for it, as it will not be a medium of choice forever, which is why I think companies are focusing on different technologies, and we will have to wait which one will succeed. People have all kind of models sitting in locked rooms, but there is no infrastructure yet to get it all on the road. The same argument might be valid for gas powered cars, as many taxis have retrofitted their fleets from petrol to that, but is that a final solution? Probably not.

Seminar I have attended many years ago was quite specific, that GM was focusing on hydrogen as a medium of their choice to power GM-made cars. Possibly today the direction might have changed. Some believe on batteries of some kind, others are investing in American grown corn; everything goes, so to speak, including diesel, but there is sufficient evidence in public domain, that EU based companies are too heavily invested in many different technologies, and research continues on parallel tracks with production of diesel powered cars in the interim. No one is sitting on their back, thinking that Toyota Prius or a German made diesel-car is a final solution of the future to gas shortages, or clean environment.

#1195 Superbar

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:39

Sure their powertrains in European Accord/Acura TSX, Honda Civic etc were very competitive... in 2003.;)

Honestly, they have made almost no changes to their major road car powertrains for around 10 years or more.


Does Earth Dreams Technology sound familiar?

Posted Image




#1196 onewingedangel

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 13:31

Honda have understood they need to spend R&D money on downsizing, direct-injection, turbocharging and energy recovery for their road cars. They will be spending this money regardless of any motorsport involvement.

This expense can be subsidised by marketing budgets by putting the lessons learnt into producing motorsport engines. So F1, SuperGT (and it's possible DTM/American DTM connection) and possibly LMP involvement is really making the best use of their resource, even if the motorsport programme provides only fringe benefits to core road car development.

#1197 Fred

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 15:55

Honda back to F1 in 2015, they also announced their new NSX for 2015. It will have a V6 engine to power the rear wheels, while there are electric engines for powering each front wheel

Edited by Fred, 23 June 2013 - 15:55.


#1198 sneaker91

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 18:55

Yep:

http://aubignynewbuz...-devoile-l.html

Should put that one to bed.......



Read closely

Since when does a customer design or make the engines???????????

RENAULT SPORT F1, customer Mecachrome-Aubigny, unveiled the future engine turbo 1.6-liter V6 that will land in 2014.

#1199 sneaker91

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 23:58

Skeptical of McL's chances of being as competitive with Honda. They had an edge when they were a motorcycle engine company that had relatively recently moved to cars, since F1 engines were a lot more like motorcycle engines with more cylinders than they were like automotive engines. But now the companies like Mercedes, VAG, basically everyone, has stolen a big lead in direct injection auto engines, which is what these v6es are much more similar to.

Good luck to McL trying to stay competitive with Mercedes engined cars using the company who possibly made the worst engine in F1 when they left 4 years ago and who are 2 years behind everyone else on making these new ones. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to keep things in perspective.


Worst engine??? according to who?????

Skeptical about your ability to understand history

Nice perspective.
You're not a downer, just amusing.

Good luck

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#1200 packapoo

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:06

:up:

Worst engine??? according to who?????

Skeptical about your ability to understand history

Nice perspective.
You're not a downer, just amusing.

Good luck


:up: