Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Honda open to F1 return / McLaren to use Honda engines from 2015 [merged]


  • Please log in to reply
1423 replies to this topic

#101 Tonka

Tonka
  • Member

  • 834 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:40

You can't continue to use an engine from a major rival team. What if Hamilton and Button take the WDC to the last few rounds and Button has an engine failure (or two)? There will be a conspiracy.



Rubbish. RB have been using Renault engines for years and they've let go more than once. Never been any mention of conspiracies when it happened.

I won't go into the fantasy that Button is going to be in the running for any championship any time soon or ever.



Advertisement

#102 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:42

Rubbish. RB have been using Renault engines for years

and there's no conflict of interest.

*Shoot, should I buy a Megane or an energy drink?*

Edited by oetzi, 08 February 2013 - 00:42.


#103 Burai

Burai
  • Member

  • 993 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:58

Rubbish. RB have been using Renault engines for years and they've let go more than once. Never been any mention of conspiracies when it happened.


Red Bull is the factory-supported Renault team now, not Lotus. The conspiracy wouldn't make any sense.

#104 phoenix101

phoenix101
  • Member

  • 250 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:01

Depends, LMP1 engines for 2014 are relatively free, the restrictions are that it has to be a 4-stroke piston engine, there is a fuel flow limit/rpm curve similar to F1 (but tighter), and some restrictions regarding turbocharger technologies. Also, energy recovery systems are allowed to store up to 8 MJ of energy and the other limitation is under what conditions the energy is recovered (i.e. how much braking force).


I don't think its possible to run free displacement and have a fuel-flow-limit per rpm formula. IIRC, the ACO regulations are just max fuel flow and a fuel/energy allotment per lap that varies based upon the amount of ERS and the type of fuel.

I don't think F1 engines will be used in LMP1, but I think an F1 engine actually could make it through LeMans. The max fuel flow rate in F1 is 100kg/h and the max rate for an 8Kw hybrid LMP1 is just 85kg/h. Overall power engine power will be substantially less in LMP1, and engine longevity could be improved.

#105 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:53

Red Bull is the factory-supported Renault team now, not Lotus. The conspiracy wouldn't make any sense.


And if the championship is decided between a driver of RB and one from Lotus?

#106 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:12

I've always been surprised that McLaren didn't snap-up Cosworth when is was for sale, recently. It makes perfect sense
  • Cosworth is an ongoing business that makes a profit
  • McLaren could benefit from Cosworth's road car engine experience for its MP4-12C, P1 and any future models
  • McLaren could fund and (thus) help improve the Cosworth Formula One engines and brand them 'McLaren' from 2016 onwards (at least, that's when the Mercedes deal runs out, IIRC)


#107 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:31

I've always been surprised that McLaren didn't snap-up Cosworth when is was for sale, recently. It makes perfect sense

  • Cosworth is an ongoing business that makes a profit
  • McLaren could benefit from Cosworth's road car engine experience for its MP4-12C, P1 and any future models
  • McLaren could fund and (thus) help improve the Cosworth Formula One engines and brand them 'McLaren' from 2016 onwards (at least, that's when the Mercedes deal runs out, IIRC)


Maybe they will not get into this one because they could be happy with their partnership with Riccardo.

Edited by 10e10, 08 February 2013 - 15:32.


#108 Lemans

Lemans
  • Member

  • 1,321 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:44

and there's no conflict of interest.

*Shoot, should I buy a Megane or an energy drink?*


:rotfl:

#109 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 2,975 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:51

Regarding the possibility of f1 comeback, Ito , Honda CEO, said during press conference in japan on friday that they are currently looking into it.

Don't know how to interpret it but at least he sort of confirmed reports made in the past couple months. As far as I know this is the first time Honda publicly referred to the topic, but I'm not sure.

#110 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:56

Regarding the possibility of f1 comeback, Ito , Honda CEO, said during press conference in japan on friday that they are currently looking into it.

Don't know how to interpret it but at least he sort of confirmed reports made in the past couple months. As far as I know this is the first time Honda publicly referred to the topic, but I'm not sure.


That's something. Sometimes where there is smoke...

#111 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:55

Regarding the possibility of f1 comeback, Ito , Honda CEO, said during press conference in japan on friday that they are currently looking into it. Don't know how to interpret it but at least he sort of confirmed reports made in the past couple months. As far as I know this is the first time Honda publicly referred to the topic, but I'm not sure.


That was last Friday? Combined with the statement that one Honda representative made several weeks ago, this is becoming quite serious.

#112 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 2,597 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:31

That's something. Sometimes where there is smoke...


Oh, smoke. You know what "Ron Dennis" calls his parrot in "Tooned" ?;) Cosworth...

#113 mattferg

mattferg
  • Member

  • 847 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:46

And if the championship is decided between a driver of RB and one from Lotus?


It won't be.

It's the same reason all the teams using Ferrari engines are midfield. Every team knows the best way to have an engine deal is to be the works team. Probably one of the reasons TR switched to Renault engines for 2014 - their 'company' as a whole is the Renault works team.

The last time a team won the WCC and wasn't the works team was Brawn - and they had just been and subsequently became one. Before that it was... 1980s maybe? Renault, Ferrari, Williams and Bennetton were all works teams, right?

For Macca to be fully successful they need a new engine partner.

#114 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 2,975 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:47

That was last Friday? Combined with the statement that one Honda representative made several weeks ago, this is becoming quite serious.

yesterday (8 feb).

i wouldnt read much into it tho, Ito merely said they are looking into it as well as reflected their last F1 challenge in 00s (sth like "we feel it deeply regrettable but if it's easy to achieve there's no point of challenge" etc). The rest is usual media hype.
He may have hinted sth, being fully aware of what media would write, want to observe public and shareholder response, or merely confirmed the open secret that's getting boring already (that they are evaluating possibility of F1 comeback). we cant tell.

#115 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 2,597 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:50

Renault, Ferrari, Williams and Bennetton were all works teams, right?


Depends. If you mean you can have two works teams. Yes, Benetton was. If not, no, then Williams was the works team in 95-97.

#116 Amphicar

Amphicar
  • Member

  • 1,855 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:11

Depends. If you mean you can have two works teams. Yes, Benetton was. If not, no, then Williams was the works team in 95-97.

Yes - and in 2010 the Renault F1 team was still the "works" outfit (Renault still owned 25%) but the Red Bull customer team won both WDC and WCC.

#117 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 772 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:25

yesterday (8 feb).

i wouldnt read much into it tho, Ito merely said they are looking into it as well as reflected their last F1 challenge in 00s (sth like "we feel it deeply regrettable but if it's easy to achieve there's no point of challenge" etc). The rest is usual media hype.
He may have hinted sth, being fully aware of what media would write, want to observe public and shareholder response, or merely confirmed the open secret that's getting boring already (that they are evaluating possibility of F1 comeback). we cant tell.


I don't think we can tell much at this point.

The interesting thing about Honda R and D is that they tend to design and build engines for formulae the company has no intention of joining, so I personally wouldn't be surprised if there is a 2014 spec engine being tested in Japan right now.

It is possible that Honda will ask Honda R and D if they have an F1 engine developed and then make a decision to join/not to join based on that. As such Honda can make that decision much quicker than most other manufacturers who only research and develop things they are actually going to use or sell.

Thats how Honda got their WTCC entry in extremely quickly, Honda R and D had developed the engine just to keep up to date so when the company decided to join the sport it only took some quick modifications and they could run.

Having said that its only a year before the 2014 season and I feel its far too late for a proper tie-up with all the contractual and legal shenanigans, and thats assuming that they've been in real talks with real teams.

I also don't think Honda will ever sign for a midfield team again. Their lesson from buying BAR was that if you want to win you really have to tie up with a frontrunner. McLaren ticks this box, Sauber unfortunately doesn't.

#118 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,905 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:32

Sauber, properly funded and supported, does. Their BMW experience shows that. Likewise Red Bull is a good example of resources and sensibly managing them can take you to success.

#119 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:42

Sauber, properly funded and supported, does. Their BMW experience shows that.

Does it? 4 years of being the BMW factory team and a single Grand Prix win to show for.

I always found that they could've performed better. But perhaps that had more to do with the fierceness of competition than with BMW Sauber's own performance.

Advertisement

#120 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,905 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:48

Compared to their fortunes before and after, it was a dramatic change in form. Likewise Williams-Honda would have an uplift. As would Force India. Or GENII/Lotus.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 09 February 2013 - 12:49.


#121 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 772 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:07

Compared to their fortunes before and after, it was a dramatic change in form. Likewise Williams-Honda would have an uplift. As would Force India. Or GENII/Lotus.


I agree Williams Honda would be a good pairing, and SFW would be looking for a new partner presumably after Wolff jumped ship. Lotus too.

FI I'm not so sure about, the Silverstone team have never had the best infrastructure and would present the greatest risk IMO.

#122 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,905 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:31

The other thing to consider is they may go with more than one team. One may be 'works' with free engines and sponsorship and one or two more paying, or they may split the subsidy, or etc.

#123 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 09 February 2013 - 14:31

I don't think we can tell much at this point.

The interesting thing about Honda R and D is that they tend to design and build engines for formulae the company has no intention of joining, so I personally wouldn't be surprised if there is a 2014 spec engine being tested in Japan right now.

It is possible that Honda will ask Honda R and D if they have an F1 engine developed and then make a decision to join/not to join based on that. As such Honda can make that decision much quicker than most other manufacturers who only research and develop things they are actually going to use or sell.

Thats how Honda got their WTCC entry in extremely quickly, Honda R and D had developed the engine just to keep up to date so when the company decided to join the sport it only took some quick modifications and they could run.

Having said that its only a year before the 2014 season and I feel its far too late for a proper tie-up with all the contractual and legal shenanigans, and thats assuming that they've been in real talks with real teams.

I also don't think Honda will ever sign for a midfield team again. Their lesson from buying BAR was that if you want to win you really have to tie up with a frontrunner. McLaren ticks this box, Sauber unfortunately doesn't.


I have to agree. For Honda to return I don't think they would do the same mistake, they would try to get a partnership with on of the big guys, and the only one currently "non-factory" supported is McLaren.

#124 Owen

Owen
  • Member

  • 10,424 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:09

Maybe this project is already started?
http://www.motorspor...gine-for-honda/

Edited by Owen, 26 February 2013 - 10:09.


#125 wewantourdarbyback

wewantourdarbyback
  • Member

  • 6,358 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:22

Rather see them stump up an LMP1 competitor.

#126 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:26

Now Joe Saward reports on GrandPrix.com that Honda might be already working on its 2014 Formula 1 return.

#127 MadYarpen

MadYarpen
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:37

it is the same speculation over and over again.

#128 Steve99

Steve99
  • Member

  • 69 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:20

Now Joe Saward reports on GrandPrix.com that Honda might be already working on its 2014 Formula 1 return.


Joe Saward no longer has anything to do with Grandprix.com. That story is from GMM.


#129 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,374 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:20

Now Joe Saward reports on GrandPrix.com that Honda might be already working on its 2014 Formula 1 return.

Well they have a long way to go to catch Ford and Renault total F1 victories, best to stick at it. :cool:

#130 Treads

Treads
  • Member

  • 739 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:30

Now Joe Saward reports on GrandPrix.com that Honda might be already working on its 2014 Formula 1 return.


Reading this article it's 100% speculation based on the boss of Renault saying they expect more competition on the 2014 rules. No mention of Honda by any source. Waste of time.

#131 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:37

Reading this article it's 100% speculation based on the boss of Renault saying they expect more competition on the 2014 rules. No mention of Honda by any source. Waste of time.


But maybe Renault knows something that we don't.

#132 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:40

Joe Saward no longer has anything to do with Grandprix.com. That story is from GMM.


Is that right? Saward isn't involved anymore? I must have missed that.
If that story is indeed from GMM, I'll take it with some pinches of salt.

#133 Treads

Treads
  • Member

  • 739 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 28 February 2013 - 19:00

But maybe Renault knows something that we don't.


Entirely possible. But Renault don't mention Honda, the Honda thing is total speculation still.

#134 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 28 February 2013 - 19:03

Entirely possible. But Renault don't mention Honda, the Honda thing is total speculation still.


Yes it is, but if you notice when it emerges speculation about a manufacturer it's always Honda, never another, like the VW Group.

#135 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,905 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 28 February 2013 - 19:07

Wtf? VW is speculated every damn time. Even after management says "ehh, we still aren't interested".

#136 10e10

10e10
  • Member

  • 802 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 28 February 2013 - 19:09

Wtf? VW is speculated every damn time. Even after management says "ehh, we still aren't interested".


I haven't heard many speculation about VW lately.

#137 Treads

Treads
  • Member

  • 739 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 28 February 2013 - 19:11

Yes it is, but if you notice when it emerges speculation about a manufacturer it's always Honda, never another, like the VW Group.


Which either means the speculation is always Honda because there's something to it? Or because people just want it a lot even though it's blatantly obviously not going to, only 4 years after they left the sport?

#138 Steve99

Steve99
  • Member

  • 69 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:11

Is that right? Saward isn't involved anymore? I must have missed that.
If that story is indeed from GMM, I'll take it with some pinches of salt.


Yes, that is right; not sure when he stopped being involved, and you can see the GMM credit at the bottom of the story (in very small print....). Joe would never use GMM.

#139 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,553 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:21

I don't believe Honda is readying an engine for as early as 2014, if at all.
If they have learned anything from their tenure as team owners, they will know that you can't develop a powertrain in isolation, without a close collaboration with chassis design. Especially with the efficiency formula upon us as of 2014.

If anything is announced, be it Honda or other engine manufacturer, it will be for 2015 at the earliest including a 'works' team with whom they will collaborate.

Edited by Timstr11, 01 March 2013 - 11:22.


Advertisement

#140 David1976

David1976
  • Member

  • 818 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:31

The new engine regs would suit Honda and it's car marketing.

They seem to be upping the ante with their sports cars now utilising hybrid powertrains and turbochargers.

F1 is far more relevant to them in 2014 than it ever was before. I for one think they will return, and quickly.

#141 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,145 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:36

The new engine regs would suit Honda and it's car marketing.

They seem to be upping the ante with their sports cars now utilising hybrid powertrains and turbochargers.

F1 is far more relevant to them in 2014 than it ever was before. I for one think they will return, and quickly.


Yes, Honda is very well known with their 1.6lt engines and they are one of the best in this area in road cars. It would be great to see Honda in F1 again.

#142 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 01 March 2013 - 13:57

I don't believe Honda is readying an engine for as early as 2014, if at all.
If they have learned anything from their tenure as team owners, they will know that you can't develop a powertrain in isolation, without a close collaboration with chassis design. Especially with the efficiency formula upon us as of 2014.

If anything is announced, be it Honda or other engine manufacturer, it will be for 2015 at the earliest including a 'works' team with whom they will collaborate.


Sorry but that sounds like nonsense.

All the manufacturers are currently designing the next generation of engine, in isolation, because the chassis design for the car they will eventually go in doesn't exist yet.


#143 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,905 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 01 March 2013 - 14:01

Especially when they all supply multiple teams.

#144 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,553 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 01 March 2013 - 14:11

Sorry but that sounds like nonsense.

All the manufacturers are currently designing the next generation of engine, in isolation, because the chassis design for the car they will eventually go in doesn't exist yet.

:confused: The minute integration becomes an afterthought you're on the backfoot.
Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull have all confirmed their chassis teams are working closely with the engine people to come to a unified design.

Edited by Timstr11, 01 March 2013 - 14:11.


#145 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 01 March 2013 - 14:18

:confused: The minute integration becomes an afterthought you're on the backfoot.
Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull have all confirmed their chassis teams are working closely with the engine people to come to a unified design.


They have been working on the engines for over a year now. There is no way the teams would have had a chassis design when they started.

If there is one thing Brawn showed, integrating an engine into a car, even one that it wasn't designed for, can be accomplished in a very short time.

#146 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,553 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 01 March 2013 - 14:25

They have been working on the engines for over a year now. There is no way the teams would have had a chassis design when they started.

If there is one thing Brawn showed, integrating an engine into a car, even one that it wasn't designed for, can be accomplished in a very short time.

You're very old school. Technology has moved on.
Ever heard of computer aided design and simulation?
Chassis teams have already done lots of research on virtual concepts together with powertrain designers.

BTW, the Brawn was quick despite a hasty integration. They had a lot to gain in that area if they had more time with Mercedes.

#147 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,868 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 March 2013 - 16:01

Sorry but that sounds like nonsense.

All the manufacturers are currently designing the next generation of engine, in isolation, because the chassis design for the car they will eventually go in doesn't exist yet.


Make it as small as possible, with as lower centre of gravity as possible, with as little cooling requirement as possible, would be Adrian Newey's brief!

Fwiw, I'm convinced that Honda will return in 2014.

Edited by Rinehart, 01 March 2013 - 16:04.


#148 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,553 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 01 March 2013 - 16:13

Make it as small as possible, with as lower centre of gravity as possible, with as little cooling requirement as possible, would be Adrian Newey's brief!

Fwiw, I'm convinced that Honda will return in 2014.

Not enough. packaging has aero implications. The size and placement of the intercooler has aero implications.
They need lots of input from the chassis/aero people to come up with the optimum package.
Especially with bulky ancillaries like the MGU-H, MGU-K, and intercooler.

#149 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,868 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 March 2013 - 16:29

Not enough. packaging has aero implications. The size and placement of the intercooler has aero implications.
They need lots of input from the chassis/aero people to come up with the optimum package.
Especially with bulky ancillaries like the MGU-H, MGU-K, and intercooler.


Sure, coordinating all that stuff is the benefit of works status (and possibly why people think Ferrari and Mercedes have an advantage in 2014) but at the end of the day, currently there is only 1 Renault engine but two competitive Renault engined teams, same with Mercedes engined teams. Since those two pairs of cars are different, somethings gotta give.

I think its quite plausible that Honda could be developing an engine now without knowing which car it is going in, and it not be a massive detriment to their performance. Better to start developing now on that basis than wait for the car but restrict dev time I'd have thought.

#150 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:37

Make it as small as possible, with as lower centre of gravity as possible, with as little cooling requirement as possible, would be Adrian Newey's brief!

Fwiw, I'm convinced that Honda will return in 2014.


Most of which is dictated by the rules so AN wouldn't have much say in it.

I have no idea if Honda are or not. I just don't believe the chassis is a dictator for them designing an engine. If they put something on the bench that produces the numbers there will be teams looking to use it and I guarantee they will have no problem packaging it.

Edited by Clatter, 02 March 2013 - 00:43.