52 replies to this topic

[steveninthematrix]

its so obvious and why more circuits don't employ this, I have no idea......

the straight down to turn 11 at suzuka isnt long, and the corner leading onto it, is quite fast, so, why can overtaking happen?

my answer is - the kink in the straight:

the fastest way TO Turn 11, is to just drive/dive straight, and aim for the inside of the start of the apex (yellow line in picture)
the fastest way around Turn 11, is to sweep back to the outside, and drive it like any normal corner, but because of the kink, this creates opportunites

i.e. kink in one direction, and short distance afterwards, turn in the other direction, and on a short straight, you can create overtaking opportunities

thanks Japan

[goldenboy]

the short straight/entrance is a little off cambered too isn't it?

Edited by goldenboy, 11 October 2012 - 07:10.

[steveninthematrix]

Kamui tribute for 2010

[Kingshark]

I'd stick my neck out and say having faster corners before straights are better for overtaking than slower corners.

If you have a harpin before a straight, the traction difference is simply too great. Degner curve is perfect for such.

That's also the reason to why despite the fact Shanghai and Yas Marina have similar length straights, a lot more overtaking happens in the harpin at China than anywhere in Abu Dhabi. Reason? The corner before it is much faster.

[sofarapartguy]

It's not about straight - it's about getting better exit at turn 10.

But partly you are right - you can not just go straight, cutting the racing line while defencing the position (yellow line), unlike the guy behind you.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 11 October 2012 - 08:25.

[PayasYouRace]

I'm with you Kingshark. The corners at either end of a straight can't be too tight or they become too traction dependent. Too fast and they become too aero dependent. Medium speed is the way to go, I think.

[Lights]

I'd stick my neck out and say having faster corners before straights are better for overtaking than slower corners.

If you have a harpin before a straight, the traction difference is simply too great. Degner curve is perfect for such.

That's also the reason to why despite the fact Shanghai and Yas Marina have similar length straights, a lot more overtaking happens in the harpin at China than anywhere in Abu Dhabi. Reason? The corner before it is much faster.

This. Even though the corner before the tunnel isn't necessarily fast. But it's flowing and doesn't bunch up cars like the chicane does. Neither should Spoon though...

[Sakae]

Kamui tribute for 2010

This is precisely why I think it would be loss for F1 if he is not in a Sauber or a better team next year.

[jee]

why more circuits don't employ this, I have no idea......

Just a thought, maybe it is for FIA's rediculous runoff rules that they would need to be all over the part of the the track leading back from the hairpin?

A kink into the other direction of a turn offers great overtaking possibilities and the other way for kinks heading the same direction as the next slow turn like the Nürburgring where overtaking happens rearly.

[Kucki]

I'd stick my neck out and say having faster corners before straights are better for overtaking than slower corners.

If you have a harpin before a straight, the traction difference is simply too great. Degner curve is perfect for such.

That's also the reason to why despite the fact Shanghai and Yas Marina have similar length straights, a lot more overtaking happens in the harpin at China than anywhere in Abu Dhabi. Reason? The corner before it is much faster.

I have been saying it for years. It is very clear to one if he has Racing Simulation experience.

Hairpin-straight-hairpin for overtaking is a misconception. The car behind loses alot of ground accelerating out of a slow corner to the car infront. It needs the whole straight just to close up the space it lose in the previous slow corner.

But when a medium speed corner is followed by a straight. That is were the most overtaking happen. A1 Ring, Interlagos, Magny Cours,... you need some kind of medium speed corner before the straight. It allows the car behind to stay closer, then after a hairpin. The driver behind also has a visual reference point from the car infront, and with the right line and a good exit its easier to overtake.

The Stop and Go Tilke tracks have failed.

Edited by Kucki, 11 October 2012 - 09:00.

[nada12]

I have been saying it for years. It is very clear to one if he has Racing Simulation experience.

Hairpin-straight-hairpin for overtaking is a misconception. The car behind loses alot of ground accelerating out of a slow corner to the car infront. It needs the whole straight just to close up the space it lose in the previous slow corner.

But when a medium speed corner is followed by a straight. That is were the most overtaking happen. A1 Ring, Interlagos, Magny Cours,... you need some kind of medium speed corner before the straight. It allows the car behind to stay closer, then after a hairpin. The driver behind also has a visual reference point from the car infront, and with the right line and a good exit its easier to overtake.

The Stop and Go Tilke tracks have failed.

Agreed in principle but I'd add one caveat. That medium speed corner before the straight can't be one with a long and sweeping apex where the car behind will lose too much downforce. It has to be a kink, and preferably with a wide corner exit, where the driver behind has a chance to power through with more speed if he gets it exactly right. Eau rouge is a actually a good example of that with today's F1 cars.

[One]

Blind entry to this hait pin helps, IMHO. In this situation the raised ground help impeding the action of the car behind. The distances to the bend appears to help with the current formula one car's performance... I am curious if the same goes for, for example Le Mans cars...

[wingwalker]

IMO it mostly has to do with state of degradation of tires - driver on worn out tires will get a much slower exit from second Degner and will have to brake earlier before the chicane not to lock up. In the previous years, when everyone's tires were much closer to each other during the race overtaking there was very, very hard.

[03011969]

Good point.

You've also got the pair of Degnars (spelling?) before it, the second of which is pretty tricky, so cars can easily exit at different speeds. If the car in front doesn't get it quite right and the car behind does, makes for even more potential at the hairpin.

I've always loved this sequence of corners in race sims (in fact the whole Suzuka track really) - it must be incredible in real life.

[Disgrace]

It's all about the Degner curves, and not too much to do with the kink. The kink is what Tilke has incorporated into the Buddh circuit design but if you're not close enough, it doesn't matter. Genuinely challenging corners like those at Suzuka, rather than point and squirt, overcomes the lack of usual overtaking places and the need for acres of tarmac.

[THE "driverider"]

Turn 11 at Suzuka is pot on, with the exit of Degner and the kink.

I've always thought Tilke was wrong with regards to overtaking opportunities. Buddh he has the right idea, with the entry to the corners widening; allowing cars to slipstream before choosing their line. This is where Sepang fails, because the straights are too wide. Also camber on the outside of corner helps overtaking, with a slower and shorter inside line against a faster and longer outside line.

[mnmracer]

thanks Japan

You mean thanks the Netherlands!
John Hugenholtz designed Suzuka, along with Zandvoort, Zolder, Hockenheim and Jarama.

For the rest, totally agree with your post

Edited by mnmracer, 11 October 2012 - 11:17.

[03011969]

You mean thanks the Netherlands!
John Hugenholtz designed Suzuka, along with Zandvoort, Zolder, Hockenheim and Jarama.

For the rest, totally agree with your post

Yesshh

[Seanspeed]

Degner curves are tricky. Its very easy to not get the last corner quite right and then suddenly have somebody right on your tail going into the hairpin, which is a hard-braking zone, with plenty of time and room for anybody who wishes to stick their nose in.

[MrMontecarlo]

I'd stick my neck out and say having faster corners before straights are better for overtaking than slower corners.

If you have a harpin before a straight, the traction difference is simply too great. Degner curve is perfect for such.

That's also the reason to why despite the fact Shanghai and Yas Marina have similar length straights, a lot more overtaking happens in the harpin at China than anywhere in Abu Dhabi. Reason? The corner before it is much faster.

I agree with you. I think one of the reasons is that slipstream is much more powerful at hight speed than at slow speed. So it's better that cars are at high speed since the start of the straight.
The best combination for overtaking is fast corner-long straight-hairpin.

Edited by MrMontecarlo, 11 October 2012 - 12:27.

[prty]

I'd stick my neck out and say having faster corners before straights are better for overtaking than slower corners.

Agree, as it enables more slipstreaming, which is only apparent at high speeds.

Also, if you have a slow corner and you are queuing behind other car, the time difference is greater for the same distance, and given how quick the F1's accelerate, that time difference is translated into a huge distance at the beggining of the straight that you don't have time to get back by slipstreaming.

[Risil]

You mean thanks the Netherlands!
John Hugenholtz designed Suzuka, along with Zandvoort, Zolder, Hockenheim and Jarama.

John Hugenholtz did not design Zandvoort, and his input at Hockenheim was limited to the stadium section (so in that sense, the new short circuit which is so reviled is proportionally "more Hugenholtz" than the four-mile version). Check out this article in 8w by Mattijs Diepraam.

As Mr Diepraam says, however, Hugenholtz was closely involved with Zandvoort and evidently was inspired by its features when it came to designing his other circuits. Good tracks should always have challenging cambers, and whilst a snaky, sinuous layout made sense around the dunes at Zandvoort, it must've taken imagination to bring them to Suzuka and Zolder. And let's be honest, if Suzuka was the only thing Hugenholtz had designed, he'd still be a hero of modern motor racing.

[wingwalker]

Well, back in the Bridgestone (and tire war) no-KERS and no-DRS days anything resembling a corner (as opposed to a kink) before a straight automatically meant driver behind had to lift much more through it not to understeer off track and there went his chance of catching up in the slip stream. There was next to none overtaking in Suzuka, Magny-Cours or even Monza in 2006, all of the tracks have 'a proper' corner before the overtaking point. Nowdays there is a huge chance that whatever disadvantage overtaking driver is going to have because of the dirty air will be more than levelled because of the less worn out tires he has which will allow him to have a higher exit speed at the beginning of the straight.


edit: Hell, jest recall Suzuka and Spa in 2009.

Edited by wingwalker, 11 October 2012 - 12:38.

[Baddoer]

Exactly. By the way, Korea have one very nice overtaking spot in Turn 12, and it could be much better if Turn 11 being a bit smoother.

Edited by Baddoer, 11 October 2012 - 12:46.

[muramasa]

You mean thanks the Netherlands!
John Hugenholtz designed Suzuka, along with Zandvoort, Zolder, Hockenheim and Jarama.

For the rest, totally agree with your post

actually it was basically and practically planned and designed by a project team lead by Honda-worker Shiozaki, from start to finish. Hugenholtz's supposed to have "supervised", and did give some advice, but it's said that most of his opinion hadnt been adopted. His role and involvement was merely nominal throughout.

Also, Sohichiro Honda requested strongly that the circuit to be designed and built by not touching/changing original environment there (especially farmland) as much as possible, making the most out of natural terrain of available lands while setting preserving it as highest priority.

very 1st original plan for Suzuka circuit

for this layout, many farmlands had to be demolished so that Mr Honda rejected it.

It wasnt easy task at all for Shiozaki and co. his team had to overcome many obstacles and go through revision after revision before reaching final plan and starting construction.

revision history of layout proposal


Also, Fujisawa, then executive at Honda and Mr Honda's important partner, even mortgaged his own house in order to drive forward this project, which, at that time, was very difficult to be promoted and materialized.

That's how they'd worked on the project.

That's why the circuit looks like it threads through hills and mountains and ponds and forests. (Its rich elevation change is of natural terrain, audience stands along the track are of original hill/mountain. And there are several ponds in and around the circuit. One of the ponds in paddock area unfortunately had to be buried due to need for more space when they refurbished the circuit in 2009. Those ponds are/have been important for farming for long time. Also there's a small pond inside hairpin-backstraight triangle).

pics quoted from here http://allabout.co.jp/gm/gc/390456/2/

[wingwalker]

Thanks for that!

Edited by wingwalker, 11 October 2012 - 13:29.

[OO7]

Kamui tribute for 2010

Great video steven, I really enjoyed that.

[Risil]

Thanks a bunch, Muramasa. I've thought for a long time that if some racing enthusiasts with fluency in Japanese could translate half the stuff that's on the internet about Japan's racing heritage, they'd be doing an incredible service. Not least to recognising how important that country's contribution to world motor racing has been since the Second World War. I reckon the experts over on the Nostalgia Forum would agree, as well.

Also, Sohichiro Honda requested strongly that the circuit to be designed and built by not touching/changing original environment there (especially farmland) as much as possible, making the most out of natural terrain of available lands while setting preserving it as highest priority.

Contrast that with the construction of the Indian Grand Prix circuit, which displaced 300 farmers.

Edited by Risil, 11 October 2012 - 13:37.

[MatsNorway]

thats some morale right there. It should stand as a benchmarck for track design and dedication.

[steveninthematrix]

You mean thanks the Netherlands!
John Hugenholtz designed Suzuka, along with Zandvoort, Zolder, Hockenheim and Jarama.

For the rest, totally agree with your post

thanks John

[August]

I think what Tilke has got wrong in his track design philosophy is that there are too often slow corners before long straights. I understand why it's so often so, too fast a corner can ruin overtaking chances on a long straight as you lose downforce behind another car in that corner, BCN's final corner/pit straight and and Magny-Cours's first corners/straight to hairpin are good examples on that.

But neither slow corners are the best solution to increase overtaking, it's fast corners that enable you to gain speed advantage compared to the car ahead. Slow corners/corner sequences just lead to a drag race on the straight like Petrov/Alonso at Abu Crappy '10. And in a slow corner, you can block the car behind so that he can't get any speed advantage. Best solution is a medium-fast corner, like Junção at Interlagos. It's a corner where a better car can have a significant speed advantage, yet it doesn't lose too much downforce. Degner is quite on the edge whether it's too fast, obviously aerodynamics have significant effect in that corner.

But there's currently one thing that enables overtaking even if the corner before the straight is too fast or slow, the tyres. If the car ahead is struggling with tyres, he's got worse traction at the exit of a slow corner, and you can get speed advantage. That happened in Valencia this year, first laps looked like usual Valencia, because everybody had fresh tyres. But once some drivers' tyres started to wear out, we saw lots of overtaking. But current rapidly-degrading Pirellis also enable overtaking after a "too fast" corner, if the car ahead has worn-out tyres, you may lose downforce and still get speed advantage. Maybe that's why we saw so much overtaking in the hairpin after Degner this year, car with fresher tyres got spped advantage for the straight.

And yeah, maybe the kink affects too. Usually a kink at the end of a straight makes overtaking more difficult because cars are going across the track. But maybe this is a bit unusual overtaking spot, and drivers don't try to block there, they don't think the car behind would try to overtake.

[Ali_G]

its so obvious and why more circuits don't employ this, I have no idea......

the straight down to turn 11 at suzuka isnt long, and the corner leading onto it, is quite fast, so, why can overtaking happen?

my answer is - the kink in the straight:

the fastest way TO Turn 11, is to just drive/dive straight, and aim for the inside of the start of the apex (yellow line in picture)
the fastest way around Turn 11, is to sweep back to the outside, and drive it like any normal corner, but because of the kink, this creates opportunites

i.e. kink in one direction, and short distance afterwards, turn in the other direction, and on a short straight, you can create overtaking opportunities

thanks Japan

I made exactly the same point of passing happening at the Casino Hairpin at Montreal years ago. The kink here helps as well.

Another place where it helps is into the hairpin at Hockenheim, although in this case it's a constant curve.

Edited by Ali_G, 11 October 2012 - 22:18.

[byrkus]

There is also one such corner in Valencia - the very last one. However, there's practically no passes at all, for there's no straight leading there, but a series of flat-out corners with only one possible line throughout.



If corners between 20 in 24 would be eliminated -corner 20 straight into 24- then the corner 25 would be a phenomenal passing oportunity. More so for being the last corner before S/F...

[Skinnyguy]

OP

That kink makes the driver in front reluctant to defend the inside line too much. You always think "I won´t lose 4 tenths going offline to cover a potential banzai move", and when it happens, you´re passed without anything you can do, and even more, having to avoid the other guy running wide into you.

These kinks aren´t always good though, Suzuka itself also has an anticlimax kink right next: the "almost-straight" into Spoon makes really scary pull alongside other guy. He might be a dirty prick and push you off claiming "I just did the normal line". Spoon would be a big overtaking spot with a proper straight before it. And I´ll go further, this pre Spoon kink takes away from the hairpin kink, because it makes a slow exit from the hairpin not that deadly, and makes you think a bit more about covering into the hairpin.

[AvranaKern]

The theory might apply to Istanbul Park's hairpin as well, where most overtaking maneuvers takes place, Turn 11 being the "kink".

[goldenboy]

muramasa, awesome info thanks! Great read, always refreshing when someone on a BB posts great info rather than spouting crap!

[ViMaMo]

The kink should not be far from the hairpin, so the driver in the front commits to a certain line due to the very short time to traverse from the kink to the hairpin. And the driver chasing can take an alternative line.

[steveninthematrix]

now all we have to hope is that the FIA give us all jobs and 1% of Bernie's $$ -

just frustrating because it is things like this which, for any serious motor-racing fan or f1 fan, are obvious......the kink must be sufficient enough to warrant a change of direction for optimal corner entry, but be close enough to the corner than the fastest way to the inside of the beginning of the apex is to drive straight and not scrub off speed turning to optimize the corner (as with all cars, if you steer, you scrub some speed off)

all these things, mean, that even on a short-straight, you can allow for overtaking.... a modern circuit which doesnt have at least two real opportunities, built at a cost of 500 000 000, once again demonstrates, money dont buy brains

[Kingshark]

Does Tilke even watch F1? Because if he did, he would recognize 2 things immediately:

1.) Having faster/medium speed corners before long straights is far more efficient for overtaking opportunities than a harpin or slow chicane. That way, the traction difference isn't too great and cars can actually remain relatively close. Also, as stated previously, higher speeds mean less efficient drag.

2.) A straight that isn't completely straight can often be better than for creating additional passing, while of course I don't mean having a load of esses, but rather a kink before the straight ends with with a harpin can often provide more lines of opportunity.

Having a slow corner at the end of the straight is the only thing Tilke's actually gotten right.

3.) Also - While I obviously I understand that Tilke cannot manipulate the landscape he is given, but regarding elevation change, it'd be efficient if the straight itself was an uphill climb for extreme slipstream effect, then the braking zone was downhill to allow braver drivers to out-brake the others.

[PayasYouRace]

I think the key factor of the kink is that it's actually in the braking zone, which forces the driver to commit to a line.

[prty]

I made exactly the same point of passing happening at the Casino Hairpin at Montreal years ago. The kink here helps as well.

Another place where it helps is into the hairpin at Hockenheim, although in this case it's a constant curve.

Actually these layouts are quite dangerous, as they promote very late defensive moves, giving a tendency to have flying cars.

[Lights]

I don't think the Montreal and Hockenheim hairpins are that comparable. They both have longer straights before them, but more crucially, the Suzuka hairpin braking zone starts right at the kink, so as Payas mentioned you're kinda stuck to the line you pick, leaving you defenseless in an attack as you can't just move around. See Perez for what happens if you wiggle the car too much.

[ViMaMo]

Very late defensive moves will be almost like chops which I don't think is followed by the majority.

[Rinehart]

Hairpins are good for overtaking on the way in (e.g Suzuka, Hockenheim) but terrible for creating overtaking on the way out. The physics of traction!

Some of the best places for overtaking in F1 which are also visually good (which is the main thing for me) are down to Copse at Silverstone, down to turn 3 at Melbourne, down to Ascari at Monza and down to Turn 11 at Suzuka. Even before DRS, year after year we had overtaking at those places. All exiting mid speed, throttle balanced corners (about where cars realy move from mechanical grip to aero grip).

Obvious as the day is long. I have always said I only want to see overtaking if its stunning overtaking. Who wants to see a car breeze past another on a mile long straight. May as well put a deck chair at the side of the M25 if that's your thing!

[Baddoer]

Me thinks they should really dump that t5-6 chicane in Abu Dhabi to create first proper overtaking place

[Skinnyguy]

The theory might apply to Istanbul Park's hairpin as well, where most overtaking maneuvers takes place, Turn 11 being the "kink".

Not really, there´s more than enough time between them to allow the driver ahead to think and defense the way he wants. It gets tricky when you have to brake and turn at the same time/one right after another.

Also the kink only works if you don´t need the full width to take it too. If a kink sends you fully to what will be the inside of the real corner, it actually helps defending, as you only have to keep driving straight to cover the inside properly. Ie: That Turkey section, it´s very easy to cover properly because you just have to keep driving straight from where the kink leaves you. The kink after the Hockenheim hairpin and the corner next. Or blanchimont and bus stop. It´s very easy to defend into bus stop because you just have to drive straight from the place where Blanchimont leaves you. It´d be differerent if blanchimont was closer or part of the braking zone for bus stop, as it would encourage you to stay left for bus stop, creating a big gap to dive in.

[Skinnyguy]

Hairpins are good for overtaking on the way in (e.g Suzuka, Hockenheim) but terrible for creating overtaking on the way out. The physics of traction!

You can only pass on the way out if:

1: the other guy has to defend heavily into it.
2: the hairpin is short and turns 180º very quickly and sharply, ala Magny Cours or Hockenheim. The longer and roundier the corner is, the better a guy that has defended can still manage a proper exit. That´s why the Abu Dhabi hairpin fails. Defending there it´s nearly free, you can park it on the inside to prevent a swichtback, and be on the same line for the exit as if you hadn´t defended.

[Ali_G]

Interestingly, here's a former thread of mine debating both having kinks before hairpins and not having hairpins leading onto straights.

http://forums.autosp...w...183&hl=Slow

[SpaMaster]

Suzuka is not that overtaking-friendly. The overtakes we see at the hairpin is mostly down to the tyres recently. Earlier overtaking used to be quite difficult at that hairpin. One Japanese fan once mentioned that they need to lengthen that straight to create more overtaking possibilities at that hairpin.

[Crazy Ninja]

Kamui tribute for 2010

My new favourite YouTube video!