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Vettel: "Massa can be as fast or even faster than Alonso"


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#1 Mackey

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:07

Link (Spanish)

Crappy translation:

"Me gusta mucho Felipe como persona y lo respeto mucho como piloto; está siendo criticado, pero mucha gente olvida lo que ha ganado y que perdió el título por un sólo punto contra Hamilton. Si ese día hubiera sido campeón la gente tendría otra opinión muy distinta"

I like Felipe as a person very much and I respect him as a driver; he´s being critizised, but a lot of people forgets what´s he won and that he lost the tittle by only 1 point to Hamilton. If that day he´d been champion, people would have a very different opinion of him

"No entiendo por qué ha sufrido tanto en los últimos años, por qué no le han acabado de llegar los resultados. En años anteriores Felipe ha sido capaz de competir y a veces ganar a grandísimos pilotos como Michael Schumacher y Kimi Raikkonen"

I don´t understand why he´s suffered so much these last years and why the results have not arrived. In past years Felipe has been capable to compete and even beat other great drivers as Schumacher and Kimi

"Con todo el respeto que le tengo a Fernando, creo que Felipe puede ser tan rápido o más que él. Pero claro, yo no soy piloto de Ferrari y no sé cómo están las cosas allí"

With all the respect I have for Fernando I think Felipe can be as fast or faster than him. But of course, I´m not a Ferrari driver and I don´t know how the thing work there

So it seems the mind games have started from Sebastian. Let´s see if and how Alonso responds.

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#2 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:13

This is kinda old, isn't it?

#3 yr

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:14

"I´m not a Ferrari driver and I dont know how the thing work there"

Thats what most of us here have said, minus Alonso fans ofcourse.

#4 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:16

"I´m not a Ferrari driver and I dont know how the thing work there"

Thats what most of us here have said, minus Alonso fans ofcourse.

On the contrary, people here seem to have more knowledge of the inner workings of Ferrari than anyone!

#5 Mackey

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:17

This is kinda old, isn't it?


Don´t know. First time I´ve read it. :well:
Sorry if it´s a repost.


#6 Watkins74

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:18

On the contrary, people here seem to have more knowledge of the inner workings of Ferrari than anyone!

Exactly.

#7 yr

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:22

On the contrary, people here seem to have more knowledge of the inner workings of Ferrari than anyone!


Well, for some reason or another, Massa is performing much worse nowadays (except in last race) than he used to. Most obvious reason for that is what Vettel suggested.

#8 tarmac

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:23

Err

Massa before or after

#9 grunge

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:40

Sounds like a little dig at Ferrari's no.1 driver policy to me...''but i dont know how things work there'' is probably implying that Alonso gets superior treatment.

Maybe its a kind of a response to Alonso's comments about Vettel only being able to win in a dominant car

#10 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:40

Well, for some reason or another, Massa is performing much worse nowadays (except in last race) than he used to. Most obvious reason for that is what Vettel suggested.

What does Vettel suggest?

#11 Brandz07

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:42

Mind games.

#12 mnmracer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:43

Many probably don't realize, but Massa has scored the most points of all drivers, bar Vettel and Button, since the Belgian Grand Prix.

Sebastian Vettel: 68 points
Jenson Button: 55 points
Felipe Massa: 44 points
Kimi Räikkönen: 41 points
Lewis Hamilton: 35 points
Ferando Alonso: 30 points
Mark Webber: 10 points

#13 2ms

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:44

The most obvious reason is that he was in an extremely serious accident that even involved brain injury. But the second most obvious is indeed that Alonso came in with their primary sponsor and is openly the first driver in a team that openly believes in having a first driver receive priority for WDC.

#14 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:45

So is Ferrari sabotaging Massa or something? How does this explain how bad he's been? Is he being given lesser machinery? Has he complained that the car suits Alonso and not him? Seems to me Massa's lack of performance is due to Massa.

#15 plumtree

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:48

http://www.f1zone.ne...s-vettel/16125/

“I really like Felipe as a person and respect him a lot as a driver.”

“Many people forget how much he has won and that he lost a title by one point to Lewis (Hamilton).”

“Had he been champion, people would talk very differently about him.”

“It’s just a shame that people forget things so quickly. In 2008 he (Massa) was seen as one of the best and now he’s not.”


“If his engine had not blown up in Hungary he would be a champion. I know I keep saying ‘if’, but that’s the way it is,”


I believe this was the point he was trying to make there.

Edited by plumtree, 11 October 2012 - 12:49.


#16 krea

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:52

Many probably don't realize, but Massa has scored the most points of all drivers, bar Vettel and Button, since the Belgian Grand Prix.

Sebastian Vettel: 68 points
Jenson Button: 55 points
Felipe Massa: 44 points
Kimi Räikkönen: 41 points
Lewis Hamilton: 35 points
Ferando Alonso: 30 points
Mark Webber: 10 points


Don't forget the team order in Italy! Massa is not that bad in the second half of the year.

#17 showtime

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:57

Well, for some reason or another, Massa is performing much worse nowadays (except in last race) than he used to. Most obvious reason for that is what Vettel suggested.


But he sure knows how RBR works, maybe we could ask why STR cars are so easy to lap or why Webber has most of the technical failures, or what happen if his wing breaks... Everybody can play this game.

#18 Hans V

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:59

Isn't it in Seb's intereset with the weakest possibly Ferrari line-up? Another top-driver in Ferrari would make it harder for Vettel - and challenge RedBulls constructor championship chances.

#19 krea

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:03

But he sure knows how RBR works, maybe we could ask why STR cars are so easy to lap or why Webber has most of the technical failures, or what happen if his wing breaks... Everybody can play this game.



Webber has for over 3 years no technical DNF. Well sure, it would be interesting to know why.

maybe you should play the game better.

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#20 Lights

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:04

Lol what an obvious attempt at mind games at this stage of the championship, Alonso and Hamilton with one stone.

#21 prty

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:19

He is right that saying that Massa can be as quick or quicker than Alonso. Every F1 driver can be quicker than another in a given moment if everything falls into place. The problem is that having everything to fall into place is not common.

Also, related to the Webber thing, it was very curious this year how he started beating Vettel, then as he signed the contract he stopped, and now that he is needed for the WDC fight, he starts to perform again :D



#22 showtime

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:21

Webber has for over 3 years no technical DNF. Well sure, it would be interesting to know why.

maybe you should play the game better.


Count the times Webber has had mechanical problems during the weekend, how many FPs or Qs ruined, how many grid penalties...

#23 H2H

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:36

It is amusing that on blogf1.it those words are taken as some sort of pretattica to make Alonso nervous. As an Italian I think it is typically for ferraristas and a bit for Italians in general to try to see behind every word a hidden meaning - not that this isn't uncommon here in this forum. The strawman argument of a supposedly bad treatment of Webber is also a classic. I take them as they were said and I'm also surprised that Massa, which was so strong in earlier years struggled so often in the recent years.

P.S: The Spanish seem to share this tendency to some degree, although it is of course within everybody of use.

Edited by H2H, 11 October 2012 - 13:49.


#24 Risil

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:44

It is amusing that on blogf1.it those words are taken as some sort of pretattica to make Alonso nervous.


I think that's spot on. Massa's race pace has been good lately and we all know that having a faster teammate -- however rare it happens -- is the only situation in which Alonso is known to crack. He even went nuts when Fisichella was faster than him for about a third of the 2006 Chinese Grand Prix. Not saying it'll work, but Seb's trying to turn everything to his advantage. It's that time of the year.

#25 showtime

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:47

I don't think his words had a second meaning, he doesn't know how things work in Ferrari so he hasn't got all the info to judge Massa's performance.

#26 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:49

Many probably don't realize, but Massa has scored the most points of all drivers, bar Vettel and Button, since the Belgian Grand Prix.

Sebastian Vettel: 68 points
Jenson Button: 55 points
Felipe Massa: 44 points
Kimi Räikkönen: 41 points
Lewis Hamilton: 35 points
Ferando Alonso: 30 points
Mark Webber: 10 points


3 races? :rolleyes:

#27 Risil

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 13:57

I don't think his words had a second meaning, he doesn't know how things work in Ferrari so he hasn't got all the info to judge Massa's performance.


I doubt he knows exactly, although he's probably got more info than we do. Don't think that's relevant though. He's just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

#28 FenderJaguar

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:00

Massa has been driving better but he has also been very lucky that a lot of drivers disappeared in the first corner at Spa and Suzuka. He would barely have made it into the points last weekend otherwise. But Vettel is playing the mindgame with Alonso. Good thinking.


Edited by FenderJaguar, 11 October 2012 - 14:01.


#29 ali_M

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:16

Webber and Massa have been pretty similar in how their form can be up and down, though Massa has been the one who has been more in the dumps. They both have team mates who don't make many errors, who pay attention to details, who enjoy the mental benefits of having the team behind them, and who are indeed very quick. A number of small oversights and errors can lead to losing a lot of ground against a highly competitive opponent who rarely makes mistakes. I think Massa is OK.... it's just that all the pieces of the puzzle repeatedly do not fall into place for him on race weekends. It's the same for Webber, though not as marked.

It usually starts by not being as quick in qualifying. With the qualifying being so close, this often means Massa is knocked out in Q2 sessions despite being only .4s off the pace... at times even less. This ends up colouring his entire weekend since the Ferrari has never really been dominant all year, though it's been quick enough to get results provided that the ball isn't dropped at any point in the weekend. With a qualifying result that sends him quite a bit back on the grid compared to Alonso, he ends up struggling to pass the cars that aren't quite as quick as his or he ends up being involved in incidents, further crippling his position. He then ends up overdriving from weekend to weekend in an attempt to make things right. Not to mention the effects of his mental state when repeatedly in such situations. I'm really hoping that this second place will break the ice for him and he starts getting his weekends together.

I agree with Vettel on Massa's potential for results.



#30 yr

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:17

What does Vettel suggest?


"With all the respect I have for Fernando I think Felipe can be as fast or faster than him. But of course, I´m not a Ferrari driver and I don´t know how the thing work there"

Well, if that is not clear for you, then I doubt my explanation would make it any clearer.


#31 discover23

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:23

Is mind games.. Vettel has never gone up against neither Massa nor Alonso,.. his claim that Massa can be faster than Alonso is just to get in his head since he has nothing substantial to back that up with....saying that Massa beat Shumi and Kimi is irrelevant because Alonso was never teammed up against those two.. Alonso has been faster than all his teammates except Lewis, who matched him.. everything else is just gut feeling..

Edited by discover23, 11 October 2012 - 14:25.


#32 RealRacing

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:24

It's not the first time Vettel has implied preferential treatment at Ferrari (see interview about possibilities of driving for them). It is indeed strange that Massa has failed to perform as he did against other big names and this has been thouroughly debated here: injury, de-motivation, rule changes and different treatment have all been considered and are all potentially part of the explanation.

But yeah, it seems like SV took the opportunity of playing some mind games at this crucial point in the championship. Amazing how there are still people who see these two together at Ferrari.

#33 yr

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:26

... Alosno has been faster than all his teammates except Lewis, who matched him.. everything else is just gut feeling..


And Trulli. who was on his way to beat him but instead got sacked by Briatore who by coincident was also Alonsos manager. :lol:


#34 discover23

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:28

And Trulli. who was on his way to beat him but instead got sacked by Briatore who by coincident was also Alonsos manager. :lol:


He was way faster than Trulli train, everyone who knows about F1 knows this ..This should not even be discussed.

#35 Massa

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:32

He was way faster than Trulli train, everyone who knows about F1 knows this ..This should not even be discussed.


In 2004, Trulli was the better faster driver. Briatore was the manager of Alonso AND Trulli, but Trulli didn't want to sign a another contract with Briatore. After this, they were a lot of conflit between both, and then, at Magny Cours, when Barrichello overtake Trulli for the third place at the last lap and the last corner, Briatore decided that Trulli will not be a Renault driver for 2005.

In 2004, it was clear that before the " clash " between " Trulli and Briatore, Trulli was the fastest // better driver that year

#36 motorhead

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:32

That interview was given to a newspaper from Sao Paolo, Brazil. It is quite understandable in that perspective, not mind game

Edited by motorhead, 11 October 2012 - 14:39.


#37 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:33

The thread is about Massa, not Truilli, so please move on.

#38 SamH123

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:50

3 races? :rolleyes:


4 races.
And interesting to see Massa had outscored Alonso for 4 races although obviously Alonso has had Lotus problems

#39 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:52

"With all the respect I have for Fernando I think Felipe can be as fast or faster than him. But of course, I´m not a Ferrari driver and I don´t know how the thing work there"

Well, if that is not clear for you, then I doubt my explanation would make it any clearer.

There's lots of ways to interpret that. Seems to me most people are just taking it to mean whatever they already believed.  ;)

Webber and Massa have been pretty similar in how their form can be up and down, though Massa has been the one who has been more in the dumps. They both have team mates who don't make many errors, who pay attention to details, who enjoy the mental benefits of having the team behind them, and who are indeed very quick. A number of small oversights and errors can lead to losing a lot of ground against a highly competitive opponent who rarely makes mistakes. I think Massa is OK.... it's just that all the pieces of the puzzle repeatedly do not fall into place for him on race weekends. It's the same for Webber, though not as marked.

It usually starts by not being as quick in qualifying. With the qualifying being so close, this often means Massa is knocked out in Q2 sessions despite being only .4s off the pace... at times even less. This ends up colouring his entire weekend since the Ferrari has never really been dominant all year, though it's been quick enough to get results provided that the ball isn't dropped at any point in the weekend. With a qualifying result that sends him quite a bit back on the grid compared to Alonso, he ends up struggling to pass the cars that aren't quite as quick as his or he ends up being involved in incidents, further crippling his position. He then ends up overdriving from weekend to weekend in an attempt to make things right. Not to mention the effects of his mental state when repeatedly in such situations. I'm really hoping that this second place will break the ice for him and he starts getting his weekends together.

I agree with Vettel on Massa's potential for results.

:up:

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#40 Vesuvius

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 14:54

What Vettel say is clear for anyone, for some reason Massa isnt driving on similar level that he did before 2010.

#41 krea

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 15:03

3 races? :rolleyes:


4 races!

and the battle is even pro Massa since Hungary (and don't forget the team order in Monza).

#42 maximilian

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:14

Massa has scored the second most points of anyone since including the 2012 Japanese GP, and outscored Alonso by infinity, so I guess it'll be Alonso who will be dropped, not Massa - when Vettel joins Ferrari in 2014! :rotfl:

#43 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 16:21

4 races!

and the battle is even pro Massa since Hungary (and don't forget the team order in Monza).


:rotfl: After Grosjean torpedoed most of the front runners?

#44 krea

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:41

:rotfl: After Grosjean torpedoed most of the front runners?


that's one race and?

#45 Lone

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 18:54

This is a old story rehashed by someone. I think it's a 2 year old story. Can't remember exactly but I'm 100% sure I've read it already last year if not the year before.

#46 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:19

On the contrary, people here seem to have more knowledge of the inner workings of Ferrari than anyone!

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you are a gal, you earned this: :kiss:

#47 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:21

"Con todo el respeto que le tengo a Fernando, creo que Felipe puede ser tan rápido o más que él. Pero claro, yo no soy piloto de Ferrari y no sé cómo están las cosas allí"

With all the respect I have for Fernando I think Felipe can be as fast or faster than him. But of course, I´m not a Ferrari driver and I don´t know how the thing work there

So it seems the mind games have started from Sebastian. Let´s see if and how Alonso responds.

I actually don't think that last bit is aimed to Alonso, but rather towards Ferrari.

Vettel already mentioned something about "what is said of Alonso contract" in the past, and I have the feeling this goes in the same direction: "If you want me there in 2014, then some things will have to change. For starters, I want equal treatment and equal equipment"

#48 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:58

I think this is just some backlash for the "Vettel is not on Lewis/me tier" by Alonso.

Massa could be as fast as Alonso, but not now. Back in the way he was, but not anymore, and I think Ferrari politics don´t have anything to do with that. Just for whatever reason (modern cars/tyres/rules not fitting his strenghts, the accident, or God knows what) he´s not that fast now, but Ferrari are not responsable.

#49 512BB

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 20:31

In my opinion, it's all mind games.


#50 mardmarium

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 21:13

I actually don't think that last bit is aimed to Alonso, but rather towards Ferrari.

Vettel already mentioned something about "what is said of Alonso contract" in the past, and I have the feeling this goes in the same direction: "If you want me there in 2014, then some things will have to change. For starters, I want equal treatment and equal equipment"



So…Vettel (the man who wants to drive for Ferrari in the future) suggests that in some way, Ferrari is sabotaging Massa…does he have evidence of this?...who cares, Vettel doesn´t need evidence…maybe he knows perfectly what he is talking about, I mean, not few people have said "Webber does not have equal treatment/equipment in Red Bull"… :confused:

In my opinion Vettel wanted to praise Massa…and at the same time, he took advantage of the situation to send a message to Alonso