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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#1 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:47

Hear me out will ya!

Considering great drivers of the past such as Piquet (senior of course) Prost and Senna not to mention Mansell with one to his name and of course Lewis and Fernando on 1 and 2 respectively......


Does anyone feel Vettel hasnt done enough in terms of proof to warrant the entire archive of accolades hes been given such as 3 time wdc?


Im of the opinion that Vettel is right up there with Alonso and Hamilton to be honest but i cant help feel his victories are soooooo hollow when he leads across the finish line 20 seconds ahead, you dont do that with a second rate car, or equal car (as some forumners want us to believe) his car is so good and im sure about 90 percent of his victories if not more have come when the car is that good, it just feels for me, though i enjoy the spectacle of F1 more than anything which is probably why it bothers me, that Vettel has earnt 3 titles let alone 1 way too easily and way to soon then hes proven


Notice everyone not once have i said not deserved, every title in history has been deserved but he really hasnt had a chance to prove thin hungary he can do more then just pole to flag in a dominant car, and we've already seen In hungary both 2009 and 2012 for examples that Alonso and Hamilton can do the same, it seems to be Vettels only trick no matter how sucessful it is. Yet the other two also have master tacticianry and brutal wheel to wheel racing skills respectively to add to their talents.

So yeah i feel even now 5 races from the end red bull and vettel are deserving of 2012 WDC and WCC cause they have really done well but i do feel its a slight shame if im honest that Vettel has already overtaken the likes of Prost, Alonso, Piquet etc who really REALLY earnt their titles when Vettels had 3 years of a car capable of 20 second plus wins, 2011 being the easiest 2010 being the most earnt thus far and if he wins 2012 that will be his best.


Still i dont quite think its right, any opinions disagree or agree, lets keep this civil its a fair point.



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#2 Guizotia

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:48

Yes.

#3 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:49

No he's not. Lucky title win in 2010, possible lucky title win 2012. He's only good when his car is good, not the trademark of a true great.

#4 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:50

Whoever wins will have deserved it, the team and driver did the best job.



#5 Watkins74

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:50

If Vettel wins 3 in a row that would be an incredible feat. Legendary.

#6 korzeniow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:51

If he scores the most points then he desevers the title. No question about it.

But it won't necessary mean he will be the bet driver in F1 as we all could see that he was on top when his car was. Alonso put it right when he said that only LH (and he) can win in slower car.

Edited by korzeniow, 13 October 2012 - 15:52.


#7 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:52

Whoever wins will have deserved it, the team and driver did the best job.



read it again.

#8 toroRosso

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:54

this is where you dont understand f1, vettel or life in general

#9 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:54

If Vettel wins 3 in a row that would be an incredible feat. Legendary.



Undoubtable Watkins, undoubtable indeed, but the point still stands, he got 3 rather easily in terms of how, he hasnt raced to titles, he drove to titles. Notice i think he deserved the 2012 title and all the others hes got, certainly no hater, but still something inside me finds its injustice if you like that he has got 3 on the back of dominant cars, 2012 is an exception but still a dominant car all season is the same as a dominant car for the last 5 races.

#10 Jon83

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:54

I don't see how he couldn't be (if he goes onto win it)

#11 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:55

Of course.

#12 w00dy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:57

Yes he is. He is very fast, makes very few mistakes.

Plus he has the following that makes the team great:

Newey is a genius who might push the development too far, but it works mostly.
Marko is there to mentally emasculate Webber when necessary.
Über-creative accounting so they can spend money way over the RRA, but nobody really cares about this.

#13 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:58

read it again.


I read it again and my point still stands.



#14 Anderis

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 15:58

Lucky title win in 2010

Yes, he had lost far more points than other title contenders due to reliability issues in 2010 and you still call him lucky...

He's only good when his car is good

STR was such a dominant car in 2008...

Vettel was one of the drivers who I didn't use to like in his early F1 days. But the fact he is getting recently so much hate and undeserved doubt over his skills makes me like him more and wish him more wins, titles etc.

He is definetely one of the very best here. Maybe you could find one or two drivers who could do a bit better in comparable circumstances, but it doesn't make his success undeserved and scoring 3 WDC in row (if it happens) cannot be just coincidence.

#15 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:00

I read it again and my point still stands.



Yeah but your implication was that i said he didnt deserve it, when i made not only a mention otherwise but outright made it clear that he does and did.

#16 Jovanotti

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:02

No doubt he'd deserve it and I'm sure he will go down in history as an all time great. He deserves 3 titles, but as long as a guy like Alonso with ~100 GP starts more and many memorable drives still stands at his 2 titles, or incredible talents as Räikkönen and Hamilton at 1, I can't help feeling Vettels titles have come a bit too easy.

#17 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:04

Yeah but your implication was that i said he didnt deserve it, when i made not only a mention otherwise but outright made it clear that he does and did.


I implied nothing, you raised the issue of whether he was worthy and I made the statement that imo whoever wins it is worthy.



#18 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:04

No doubt he'd deserve it and I'm sure he will go down in history as an all time great. He deserves 3 titles, but as long as a guy like Alonso with ~100 GP starts more and many memorable drives still stands at his 2 titles, or incredible talents as Räikkönen and Hamilton at 1, I can't help feeling Vettels titles have come a bit too easy.



:up:

Exactly my thoughts on it,

Incredible talents like Raikkonnen and Hamilton on a 'mere' one, and the greatest at the moment Alonso having not won one since 2006, Vettels titles seem far to easy and far too quick in succession for me.

#19 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:05

I implied nothing, you raised the issue of whether he was worthy and I made the statement that imo whoever wins it is worthy.



Well i apologise i was too expecting of flaming, we seem to agree.

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#20 ayali

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:07

If Vettel wins 3 in a row that would be an incredible feat. Legendary.

Yes 3 in a row that would be amazing :up:

Be it Alonso or Seb it will be deserved and they are both worthy.


#21 superuser

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:10

This thread is funny :) But it will be really funny when the "Is Vettel worthy of 5th WDC title?" threads in a few years. :lol:

Does it every occur to you that the truly great drivers just make it look easy? That frequent messing up in qualifying, which gives you the chance to "prove yourself" in close battles is actually a weakness? How come his pretty fast teammate never finished 2nd in the WDC with the "dominant car"?

I don't know about Piquet and Senna but clearly both Hamilton and Alonso had their chances to get more titles and they screw up. If Alonso didn't do the stupid stunt in Hungarian GP in 2007, he would have been a 3x WDC (3 in a row, mind you!). If Hamilton wasn't messed up the last two races in 2007, he would've been 2x WDC.

What can be said for Vettel is every time when he has a realistic shot at the title, he is more likely to get it than any other driver. Alonso is doing excellent job this year but he made a crucial mistake in Japan. If he loses the title with less than 18 points difference, he has himself to blame and no one else.

#22 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:13

It's interesting that you bring up Mansell. His one and only title was with a supremely dominant car. But he's remembered as a fighter with guts and determination. Just something to think about.

#23 Ashitank

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:15

If he wins it then yes he Deserves the title but Vettel to me in not as good as Alonso & Hamilton, simples.

#24 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:17

This thread is funny :) But it will be really funny when the "Is Vettel worthy of 5th WDC title?" threads in a few years. :lol:

Does it every occur to you that the truly great drivers just make it look easy? That frequent messing up in qualifying, which gives you the chance to "prove yourself" in close battles is actually a weakness? How come his pretty fast teammate never finished 2nd in the WDC with the "dominant car"?

I don't know about Piquet and Senna but clearly both Hamilton and Alonso had their chances to get more titles and they screw up. If Alonso didn't do the stupid stunt in Hungarian GP in 2007, he would have been a 3x WDC (3 in a row, mind you!). If Hamilton wasn't messed up the last two races in 2007, he would've been 2x WDC.

What can be said for Vettel is every time when he has a realistic shot at the title, he is more likely to get it than any other driver. Alonso is doing excellent job this year but he made a crucial mistake in Japan. If he loses the title with less than 18 points difference, he has himself to blame and no one else.



I wondered how long before the ridiculous responses would come, congrats on being first.




#25 seahawk

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:19

No doubt he'd deserve it and I'm sure he will go down in history as an all time great. He deserves 3 titles, but as long as a guy like Alonso with ~100 GP starts more and many memorable drives still stands at his 2 titles, or incredible talents as Räikkönen and Hamilton at 1, I can't help feeling Vettels titles have come a bit too easy.

Maybe he is so good it just looks easy.

#26 P123

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:23

Vettel has the talent and the car, so yes, he's a worthy 3x WDC. If it doesn't happen this year, it will at some point.

#27 Francesc

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:23

He's very, very good. I doubt anyone of the current grid would do any better than him.

#28 jrg19

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:24

Yes.

Others on the grid are too but not everyone can win.

#29 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:24

It's interesting that you bring up Mansell. His one and only title was with a supremely dominant car. But he's remembered as a fighter with guts and determination. Just something to think about.


Its quite simple why Mansell and all the others are mentioned. They all proved their worthiness either before during or after their title wins.

Sennas performance at Monaco, Prost winning a title from the dominant williams pair, Alonso against the 7 time champion in prime form in pretty much equal cars, Hamilton against a superior Ferrari in 2008.

Vettels toro rosso win doesnt go unnoticed by any means, as ive already said hes not a personal like pain in the ass to me, quite like the chap, but he really cant contend with so many others when it comes to whether he is worthy of 3 titles, let alone on the trot, and let alone in dominant cars in all 3 of the title winning seasons.

#30 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:24

Of course he is. There are others in the current grid worthy of that honour too which may not get it, but this doesn´t mean Vettel doesn´t deserve it.

#31 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:26

Of course he is. There are others in the current grid worthy of that honour too which may not get it, but this doesn´t mean Vettel doesn´t deserve it.





I agree with you totally, but, who said he didnt deserve it? I didnt.........

#32 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:29

I agree with you totally, but, who said he didnt deserve it? I didnt.........


I know. It wasn´t an answer to you mate. Just my view on the topic. No problem.



#33 Anderis

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:33

I don't know about Piquet and Senna but clearly both Hamilton and Alonso had their chances to get more titles and they screw up. If Alonso didn't do the stupid stunt in Hungarian GP in 2007, he would have been a 3x WDC (3 in a row, mind you!).

+ People often forget or don't want to see how the 2010 went for Alonso.
He has got 59 points advantage over Vettel due to reliability issues (Vettel had lost 13 points in Bahrain, 25 in Australia and 25 in Koream while Alonso only 4 points in Malaysia due to car failures. If you count how many points Alonso had gained due to Vettel's reliability issues, the amount of points increases to 75).

If you include that Alonso has lost that title by just 4 points, he is guilty himself for that. He had jumped the start in China, he had missed qualifying session in Monaco due to his crash in FP3, he had been struggling big time in Turkey, he had overtaken Kubica out of the circuit in Great Britain and got penalty for that, he had screwed his Q3 lap in Belgium and he had crashed into the wall in Belgium. He could have easily won the title but he just made too many mistakes.

#34 trogggy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:33

If he wins it this year then he's worthy.
If RBR were finishing 1-2 in the wdc each year I might feel differently. But they're not.


#35 Jovanotti

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:35

Maybe he is so good it just looks easy.

Yeah, that's why I wrote "I can't help feeling". We don't know for sure how good he is yet, that's why I hope he will join Ferrari in 2014. Also a (very good, but not outstanding) driver like Webber has been fairly close to Seb except for 2011.

It's only a discussion of the numbers I guess. Nobody doubts that Vettel is in the top three/four league with Alonso, Hamilton and, at times, Räikkönen, but I doubt he is one or two titles respectively "better" than the others (just as Schumachers 7 titles are out of proportion compared to the numbers of Clark, Senna, Prost, etc.). My 2 cents of course.

#36 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:36

Yes he is.



#37 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:41

This thread doesn't work, perhaps because the OP brought it the wrong way, yet it does have a point.

I think perhaps a better question would be, is Vettel worthier of 3 titles than Alonso or Hamilton based on their performances in the past 3 years? Or something like that...

Edited by Lights, 13 October 2012 - 16:41.


#38 nada12

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:46

I agree with you totally, but, who said he didnt deserve it? I didnt.........

You imply as much in almost every post, while trying to dance around the words and then provoke those posters who think he deserves it. You had your mind made up and aren't interested in other opinions. Nothing but a thinly veiled trolling attempt.

#39 PinkZepStones

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:47

This thread doesn't work, perhaps because the OP brought it the wrong way, yet it does have a point.

I think perhaps a better question would be, is Vettel worthier of 3 titles than Alonso or Hamilton based on their performances in the past 3 years? Or something like that...




Yeah thatd probably be better but then title would get all long-winded. If people worth discussing with are about theyll carefully read the OP and then state their mind and it seems pretty civil so far.

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#40 karlth

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 16:49

He'll go down as possibly the most successful Newey driver. Vettel's teammates had, when they started racing alongside him, not won a single race. That is quite telling.



#41 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:04

He'll go down as possibly the most successful Newey driver. Vettel's teammates had, when they started racing alongside him, not won a single race. That is quite telling.


When on Earth you wanted Mark to win? With the Jaguar, or with the lame Williams? He came close to win in the 2006 pile of junk, that says enough about him.

#42 gricey1981

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:07

Anyone who wins 3 in a row deserves them.

I dont like him but 3 in in a row is mightily impressive

#43 Lazy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:09

Ofc he would be.

People look back at the past too much with rose tinted glasses.

#44 Jejking

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:17

I think he's not, he's very good but I don't see him up there already with f.e. Senna considering number of titles. He has many years to come, let him win then instead of now when his equipment is flattering the achievements. Having said that, Red Bull is actually doing really good with Newey as the driving force, nothing but respect for that. I simply think it hasn't given Vettel the opportunity to fight against the tide in an incredibly tense atmosphere.

Yes, I know he had some misfortunes in 2010 where he was supposed to lead the WDC but didn't. He drove from a underdog position in the last race. 2011 is completely out of the question. 2012.. hmm..

Edited by Jejking, 13 October 2012 - 17:19.


#45 velgajski1

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:20

Fully deserved of course.

#46 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:23

I heard. Yes.

Red Bull have been the best team for the past few years. They were not interested in Hamilton when he was available. No interest in Alonso either. Rather Ferrari wants Vettel. So, when they want one driver, Vettel, and want to persist with him, that throws some light. They don't want to compromise their car with a lesser driver. That is good enough. Besides, the championships are not an indication of the drivers alone. It has always been about both the team and the driver. It shows Vettel/Red Bull combo has been that good. There is no point trying to take anything away.

#47 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:27

Of course he deserves it. Pointless thread IMO.

#48 David Lightman

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:29

I still think of him as being an amazing hot-lapper but an average racer, so couple that with Newey and team management on his side his titles have come a lot easier than others. I really really want to see him spend a season in a shitbox so we can properly see what he's capable of. Until then I remain unconvinced. Being a triple champion doesn't mean you automatically get thought of as a legend, just look at Piquet.

#49 mlsnoopy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:30

Why wouldn't he be?
He has had the best car.
The team made less mistakes.
He beat his team mate.


#50 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:32

He'll go down as possibly the most successful Newey driver. Vettel's teammates had, when they started racing alongside him, not won a single race. That is quite telling.



I would think that's honor belongs to Mika Hakkinen. For Now.