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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#51 trogggy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:35

I still think of him as being an amazing hot-lapper but an average racer, so couple that with Newey and team management on his side his titles have come a lot easier than others. I really really want to see him spend a season in a shitbox so we can properly see what he's capable of. Until then I remain unconvinced. Being a triple champion doesn't mean you automatically get thought of as a legend, just look at Piquet.

Were you watching in 2008? He was half-decent in a Toro Rosso back then.

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#52 Nonesuch

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:38

Vettel has already overtaken the likes of Prost, Alonso, Piquet etc

Piquet won three titles, and Prost won four? I'm not sure I follow. :confused: Anyway, anybody who wins the title deserves it. That doesn't mean a person who wins the title is instantly an 'Eternal Hero of F1', though - those things are more complicated, subjective and ultimately up to future generations.

I don't think Vettel is amazingly special, but he has definitely been making the most of the Red Bull equipment. He's delivered where Webber, who has the same equipment, hasn't. If that's good enough to win the championship, then fine - so be it. The same can be said of plenty of other winners and champions; it's all part of the game in which the driver, car, tyres and engine are all important parts of the total package.

Edited by Nonesuch, 13 October 2012 - 17:42.


#53 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:45

Were people saying the same thing in 2000, if Mika had beaten Michael Schumacher in a striaght fight? Of course he is worthy 2 time champion and would have been a worthy 3 time WDC.... Then again, Mika did beat Michael in his prime and vintage years at Ferrari...


Edited by George Costanza, 13 October 2012 - 17:50.


#54 darkkis

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:46

After watching Räikkönen to lose championships only due to reliability issues several times... It seems that Vettel has gotten his too easily, but again it doesn't make him less worthy, I guess... :|

Edited by darkkis, 13 October 2012 - 17:47.


#55 KavB

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:46

He'll go down as possibly the most successful Newey driver. Vettel's teammates had, when they started racing alongside him, not won a single race. That is quite telling.

Looking down on a driver for their teammates lack of success? Probably the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.
Vettel is worthy of being a 3xWDC if he wins. He may have had an easy ride to win the title last year, but he made the most of his equipment to dominate the season. His teammate wasn't even runner up.

Vettel hasn't had the best car this year yet he's right up there. Okay, his car may have been dominant in Suzuka and is looking the same this weekend but you don't win the title on the back of two races. He's clearly done enough in the beginning and middle of the season where he didn't have the best car. So yes, he deserves to join the greats if he wins at the end of the season.

#56 seahawk

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:48

Comparing Vettel to great drivers of the past is difficult.

Mansell also drove a Newey car when he won the title. And the Williams was also a top car in the 1980ies.
Senna

Or look at Senna´s first WDC. The car was dominating and with todays rules, Prost would have won.

I think it is impossible to get a clearer picture than being able to say, that the driver is capable to secure a WDC if given a very good car. I think today there are 3 driver who can do this with a very high likelihood of winning, those are: Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton (in random order). Kimi is on the same level if he is fully into F1. Schumacher was also able to do this, the current car makes it impossible to judge if he still could, but I think he would. Rosberg is another candidate. Perez maybe, Hülkenberg / diResta could be.


#57 Wander

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:48

I think people will approve of his titles much more after a few more years have passed.

#58 Vesuvius

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 17:57

Of course he is worth it, the kid has broken many records and will still break many and he will be regarded one of the best drivers ever.

#59 prty

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:04

If he wins 3 WDCs, he will deserve 3 WDCs.

The thing is, not every WDC is worth the same, and you would have to ask, how much value do they have.

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#60 canaus

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:06

Worthy, yes even it will be this year or 5 year from now. And I don't understand what makes Mansell and Piquet better drivers than Vettel. Vettel 3xWDC looks very normal for me.

Deserved no. Alonso deserve this, followed by Lewis. Vettel/Kimi a distant 3. And IMO this is Vettel's best year in F1. He really had some very good drives this year.

Anyway, objectively titles doesn't make you better. Look at Senna and Shumi.

#61 undersquare

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:06

I would like to see him in another team. to know how great he is.

#62 gillesthegenius

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:07

If Vettel wins 3 in a row that would be an incredible feat. Legendary.


+1

#63 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:10

i really have no problem vettel winning 3 WDC, there is nothing called 'being worthy of WDC', a driver wins championship because the team produces the best car and the driver extracts the best out of the package regularly. it doesn't matter if the driver wins it by 1 point, by last lap overtaking or dominantly with 2 races to spare. history will judge the numbers, not how.

BTW, it seems pedro de la rosa thinks Alonso deserves this years title a tad more than Vettel though ... :smoking:

Fernando Alonso would be the worthiest winner of this year's World Championship. That is the view of the Spaniard's countryman Pedro de la Rosa, who drives for the backmarker team HRT. Ferrari's Alonso appeared the outright favorite to secure his third drivers' crown this year until very recently, when first-lap crashes at Spa and Suzuka allowed reigning World Champion Sebastian Vettel to close the gap to just four points. "I still think and believe Fernando will win the title," de la Rosa told AS newspaper in Korea. "Why not? I believe he deserves it, and usually you get what you deserve in sport. Things have happened to him recently but they can happen to others, too."

Asked if he really thinks Alonso 'deserves' the title more than back-to-back champion and German Vettel, de la Rosa answered: "Yes, he deserves it more. Fernando has not had the best car but he has always given the maximum of what he is able. And the two retirements were not his fault and not even his team's."


Edited by eronrules, 13 October 2012 - 18:12.


#64 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:10

He's worthy but for the sake of the sport I hope he has to wait a few more years.

#65 MP422

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:13

He is worthy champion for sure but only in a Schumacher way... not in a Senna way.

#66 DrF

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:14

He's as worthy as Senna, Schumacher, Button, Alonso and any one of the other WDC's who happened to find themselves in a competitive car and drove consistently enough to clinch the WDC.

Each of his championships have been while there are 4 other WDC's on the field and he's beaten the likes of Alonso in a Ferrari and Hamilton in a Mclaren.

You bet he's worthy.

#67 Realyn

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:20

i really have no problem vettel winning 3 WDC, there is nothing called 'being worthy of WDC', a driver wins championship because the team produces the best car and the driver extracts the best out of the package regularly. it doesn't matter if the driver wins it by 1 point, by last lap overtaking or dominantly with 2 races to spare. history will judge the numbers, not how.

BTW, it seems pedro de la rosa thinks Alonso deserves this years title a tad more than Vettel though ... :smoking:

A spaniard is telling a spanish newspaper that he believes the spanish driver deservers the wdc more. Groundbreaking news.

Edited by Realyn, 13 October 2012 - 18:21.


#68 sailor

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:23

Didnot think that he was worthy in 2010 because of the car being on another planet .

Now if i m being honest , its hard to judge him below Alonso and Hamilton. Past driver comparisons are always tricky but i dont see why Vettel cant be classed at the same as Piquets and Mansells.


#69 SunnyENTP

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:24

Very worthy and he would go on to Smash Schumachers records. Amen!!

#70 Boxerevo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:25

Very worthy. :up:



#71 Konsta

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:26

Didnot think that he was worthy in 2010 because of the car being on another planet .

Now if i m being honest , its hard to judge him below Alonso and Hamilton. Past driver comparisons are always tricky but i dont see why Vettel cant be classed at the same as Piquets and Mansells.


Of course Vettel will be a worthy 3XWDC should that happen.

To me it always feels like sour grapes when his achievements are put down. (Some) Ferrari fans are quick to point out that reliability and speed are part of the package - when it is someone else who fails or is forced to retire. RBR has been good or very good but Seb has truly delivered - few complain that Michael´s WDC in 2004 was worthless just because his car was so good.

#72 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:27

He is worthy champion for sure but only in a Schumacher way... not in a Senna way.



And that means....?

#73 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:28

Each of his championships have been while there are 4 other WDC's on the field and he's beaten the likes of Alonso in a Ferrari and Hamilton in a Mclaren.

You bet he's worthy.

He's also very lucky he's had the best support throughout his two championships. Nobody else has had the consistent support that Vettel has and I think thats a huge credit to Red Bull.

#74 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:32

He's also very lucky he's had the best support throughout his two championships. Nobody else has had the consistent support that Vettel has and I think thats a huge credit to Red Bull.


when you're talking about consistent team support, i think you are forgetting about a Team called ''Ferrari'' and a certain spaniard called ''Alonso'' :smoking:

vettel had to fight hard against his team mate in 2010, that's not the case in any of alonso's 2 WDCs

#75 TheNewStig

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:35

Yes.

#76 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:37

when you're talking about consistent team support, i think you are forgetting about a Team called ''Ferrari'' and a certain spaniard called ''Alonso'' :smoking:

vettel had to fight hard against his team mate in 2010, that's not the case in any of alonso's 2 WDCs


I think Alonso dominating his teammates has rather to do with Alonso himself than the support he gets.

#77 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:38

And that means....?


i think what he means is this, we've seen the dominance of schumi era in our lifetime, and yes it was boring. we've also seen vettels 2 championships, first one was great, 2nd one boring, thus we jump the gun and say .... '' ya schumi has won 7 title but it was in a superior car, but senna and prost were the man with hairy chest and nerves of steel '' :p , yet we forget how dominating there cars were in there days as well. i'll bet that back in those days, people complained the same too about prost winning 4 titles that it was boring and that ascari/fangio were better.

bottomline, our grand children will say schumi and vettel were legends and worthy than a driver with multiple WDC in a health/safety era with electric motors only ... say in 2050. it's a generation thingy, nothing else :smoking:

#78 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:38

when you're talking about consistent team support, i think you are forgetting about a Team called ''Ferrari'' and a certain spaniard called ''Alonso'' :smoking:

vettel had to fight hard against his team mate in 2010, that's not the case in any of alonso's 2 WDCs



Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.



#79 whitevisor

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:39

IMO. Vettel is a worth 3 xWDC if he wins.. but so would be Alonso and Hamilton.
He is a top 3 driver so its a no brainer. Doesn't mean he is better than Alonso and Hamilton though.

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#80 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:42

Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.


...but much much more reliable, which was a huge bonus. Especially considering the 10-8-6-etc. points-system.

#81 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:43

Whoever wins will have deserved it, the team and driver did the best job.


This. Is he lucky to be in the right team in the right moment? Of course. But how does this make him unworthy of the title?

#82 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:43

Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.


yes, that goes to show my point of being consistent and having a team that produces strong car. i was contradicting that.


although to be fair (and being a kimi fan), mclaren threw 2005 title through their legendary unreliability, kimi in 2005 won more races and yet became the 2nd driver after prost to loose the title. :cry: but as mentioned before, the team ruined it, and you win or loose as a team

#83 2ms

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:44

Vettel's the most well rounded driver in F1 right now. Of course he'll deserve it.

There are a couple other drivers who might be as fast, a couple others that might be as smart and level-headed, and a couple other who might be able to qualify as well. But no one has as high an overall combination of these things. Certainly not anyone who is in a good enough car to demonstrate it.

In particular, Hamilton and Alonso have had too many years in great cars and blown it -- I feel Vettel has now established himself as a class above.

Edited by 2ms, 13 October 2012 - 18:44.


#84 Lone

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:45

He gets the job done, period. What more can you ask from a driver in a sport where the car is more important than the driver. However not every driver will achieve what he's done with a car capable of winning.

Would any other driver on the grid done better than him in a RB? No, because you can't do better than winning.

Is he the best driver on the grid? I guess the answer to that question is who you support!

Deserving? Again, if he wins it this year again I'm sure RBR doesn't regret their driver choice.

#85 travbrad

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:48

Red Bull have been the best team for the past few years. They were not interested in Hamilton when he was available. No interest in Alonso either.


Have you considered the possibility that Red Bull doesn't really want two #1 drivers (despite what their PR may say)? This Vettel/Webber pairing has seemed to be working quite well for them, so why change it?

He's completely worthy of 3 WDC of course, and a great driver. I just wouldn't infer from Red Bulls driver choices that he is THE best current F1 driver. It's very hard to judge that sort of thing when the other top drivers (at least according to most) are in different teams. Vettel is also still in the early part of his career despite having so much success already, which makes it hard to compare to someone like Alonso who has been in F1 for 12 years and driven for many different teams.

#86 whitevisor

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:48

Vettel's the most well rounded driver in F1 right now. Of course he'll deserve it.

There are a couple other drivers who might be as fast, a couple others that might be as smart and level-headed, and a couple other who might be able to qualify as well. But no one has as high an overall combination of these things. Certainly not anyone who is in a good enough car to demonstrate it.

In particular, Hamilton and Alonso have had too many years in great cars and blown it -- I feel Vettel has now established himself as a class above.


What do you mean by great car? The one year both were in the 2007 Mclaren? That car wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination, and even if it was the two drivers were evenly matched. Imagine Vettel having Alonso in the other RB7...

#87 beute

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:48

Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.


which isnt all that hard if all you have to do is drive behind that faster car and wait for it to break down... 3 times, not to mention all the other engine related penalties.

#88 2ms

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:49

He gets the job done, period. What more can you ask from a driver in a sport where the car is more important than the driver. However not every driver will achieve what he's done with a car capable of winning.

Would any other driver on the grid done better than him in a RB? No, because you can't do better than winning.

Is he the best driver on the grid? I guess the answer to that question is who you support!

Deserving? Again, if he wins it this year again I'm sure RBR doesn't regret their driver choice.


I look at it this way: No other driver is demonstrably faster, however Vettel has demonstrably been more reliable than any of his competitors (eg look at all of Hamilton's goofs, look at Alonso's occasional imitation of Grosjean), with the exception of Kimi I suppose. Kimi hasn't been as flawless in qualifying this season though...

#89 darkkis

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:50

Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.

Yeaah... But Alonso had much more reliable car.

As a few reminders...





:drunk:

Edited by darkkis, 13 October 2012 - 18:50.


#90 krea

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:52

I still think of him as being an amazing hot-lapper but an average racer, so couple that with Newey and team management on his side his titles have come a lot easier than others. I really really want to see him spend a season in a shitbox so we can properly see what he's capable of. Until then I remain unconvinced. Being a triple champion doesn't mean you automatically get thought of as a legend, just look at Piquet.


Torro Rosso... I don't believe that Hamilton drove a worse car.

#91 2ms

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:53

What do you mean by great car? The one year both were in the 2007 Mclaren? That car wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination, and even if it was the two drivers were evenly matched. Imagine Vettel having Alonso in the other RB7...


By great car, I mean fast enough and reliable enough to win a WDC in. 2009 and 2011 are the only season where you might be able to argue that the best driver likely couldn't have won without extreme good fortune or being in a car other than McL or Ferrari.


#92 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:55

Yeaah... But Alonso had much more reliable car.

As a few reminders...





:drunk:


:cry: all those memories ... specially i still remember how frustrated i got after nurburgring suspension failure ... i strongly believe that if that were any driver other than kimi, surely he would've gotten fired cursing the team (insert hamilton+tw@tter jokes), but kimi showed no emotion (apart from throwing the steering wheel :smoking: )

#93 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:57

Vettel's the most well rounded driver in F1 right now. Of course he'll deserve it.

There are a couple other drivers who might be as fast, a couple others that might be as smart and level-headed, and a couple other who might be able to qualify as well. But no one has as high an overall combination of these things. Certainly not anyone who is in a good enough car to demonstrate it.

In particular, Hamilton and Alonso have had too many years in great cars and blown it -- I feel Vettel has now established himself as a class above.


When did Alonso exactly blown it having the best car on the grid? Only 2007 could be considered and he had, let's just say, a difficult relationship with the team and an excellent driver as a team mate. I would like to see Vettel winning a WDC without having the best car or having to beat a A-class team mate. Maybe then he will establish himself as a class above. Meanwhile he's just collecting the WDCs served by Newey, which is fine, he will have seasons to prove his real value knowing he is already a 3xWDC. I would love that Alonso could have those rockets in Ferrari and I wouldn't mind if someone said he was winning because of the car.

#94 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:59

i think what he means is this, we've seen the dominance of schumi era in our lifetime, and yes it was boring. we've also seen vettels 2 championships, first one was great, 2nd one boring, thus we jump the gun and say .... '' ya schumi has won 7 title but it was in a superior car, but senna and prost were the man with hairy chest and nerves of steel '' :p , yet we forget how dominating there cars were in there days as well. i'll bet that back in those days, people complained the same too about prost winning 4 titles that it was boring and that ascari/fangio were better.

bottomline, our grand children will say schumi and vettel were legends and worthy than a driver with multiple WDC in a health/safety era with electric motors only ... say in 2050. it's a generation thingy, nothing else :smoking:


Well if he meant it that way, then MSC´s huge success-rate occasionally seems to salvage an ironic twist - as it seems to be more of a burden to MSC´s reputation than a boost for it.

Due to all these years of his (car-related) tedious dominance some people seem to forget, that the first time he got a dominant car, he was already a 3x WDC...

#95 prty

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 18:59

yes, that goes to show my point of being consistent and having a team that produces strong car. i was contradicting that.


although to be fair (and being a kimi fan), mclaren threw 2005 title through their legendary unreliability, kimi in 2005 won more races and yet became the 2nd driver after prost to loose the title. :cry: but as mentioned before, the team ruined it, and you win or loose as a team


Kimi didn't win more races in 2005.

#96 Fastcake

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:03

I would rather he didn't win personally. My opinion of him simply isn't as high as other drivers with less than three titles (currently).

#97 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:03

I still think of him as being an amazing hot-lapper but an average racer, so couple that with Newey and team management on his side his titles have come a lot easier than others. I really really want to see him spend a season in a shitbox so we can properly see what he's capable of. Until then I remain unconvinced. Being a triple champion doesn't mean you automatically get thought of as a legend, just look at Piquet.


Dunno. I think in his case it has less to do with his skills and more with being an a-hole.  ;)

#98 FirstWatt

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:05

[..]look at Alonso's occasional imitation of Grosjean)

Funny you should mention this...I don't think Alonso would have had such a stupid accident as Vettel with Karthikeyan.

Apart that, the first half of the season showed clearly that Vettel isn't the driver which excels when not having the fastest car.
I wish he had a whole season with a car which is consistently 0.4s or so off pace. Somehow I hope Lauda can bring Newey to Mercedes, and Vettel continues with RB sans Newey.
Then we can decide whether he is or not a real big champion or just a Newey-spoiled driver as there have been others...

#99 Cenotaph

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:07

If Vettel wins he, ofc, deservs it completely, much like Alonso if he does it. When a guy wins by a 20s margin he is actually owning the rest of the field, not the opposite...

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#100 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:07

Kimi didn't win more races in 2005.



sorry, i meant to say winning same no. of races as title winner :rolleyes: