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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#101 kismet

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:08

I'm old-school; I believe people who win generally deserve to be champions over people who don't. In the context of sporting competitions where success is objectively measurable, this emo bullshit about losers being worthier and more deserving makes me stabby. So yes, Vettel would be a worthy 3-time WDC and, frankly, I find the idea that it's somehow wrong that he's been so successful both incredibly arrogant and fairly obnoxious.

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#102 BigCHrome

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:11

No, he's been extremely fortunate to have Newey designing his cars.

#103 Cenotaph

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:12

No, he's been extremely fortunate to have Newey designing his cars.

ok, so now let's discuss how worthy Mansell's title was, or Hakkinen's, or Prost's third, or Damon's or Villeneuve's.;)

Edited by Cenotaph, 13 October 2012 - 19:12.


#104 race addicted

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:14

Torro Rosso... I don't believe that Hamilton drove a worse car.


No? The Mp4/24 ('09) was the third or second worst car for the first third of the season!

#105 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:16

when you're talking about consistent team support, i think you are forgetting about a Team called ''Ferrari'' and a certain spaniard called ''Alonso'' :smoking:

vettel had to fight hard against his team mate in 2010, that's not the case in any of alonso's 2 WDCs

I'm not talking about who is number one in a team. By support I mean the best strategies, best pitstops, the best engineers behind him, and the best designer in the sport. The most important thing is the consistency and lack of mistakes in comparison to the opposition too. Red Bull as a team have been the best of the past 4 years IMO.

#106 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:16

ok, so now let's discuss how worthy Mansell's title was, or Hakkinen's, or Prost's third, or Damon's or Villeneuve's.;)


IF we really were to debate this, I suppose (if) had Michael Schumacher had all the luck on his side.... He would have been the World Champion from 1994-2004 seasons.


11 time world champion? :rotfl:

Seriously, 1997-1998-1999 would have been his, IMO.

Edited by George Costanza, 13 October 2012 - 19:18.


#107 alframsey

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:26

Whoever wins will definitely be the deserving champion, always is.

#108 sock22

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:29

I think he deserves to have three titles, but the real problem is that he doesn't really deserve more than Alonso and Hamilton at the moment (IMO), who have had longer careers but have never had a dominant car over a season like Vettel had last year, for example.

#109 DrF

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:31

yes, that goes to show my point of being consistent and having a team that produces strong car. i was contradicting that.


although to be fair (and being a kimi fan), mclaren threw 2005 title through their legendary unreliability, kimi in 2005 won more races and yet became the 2nd driver after prost to loose the title. :cry: but as mentioned before, the team ruined it, and you win or loose as a team

Kimi the Car Breaker. Same guy whose Lotus has not missed a beat this year?

Vettel's had to deal with some dreadful reliability and a team mate who's played a very political game against him and still managed to win back to back wdc's. He's made it look easy because he is very, very good.

Edited by DrF, 13 October 2012 - 19:33.


#110 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:36

Kimi the Car Breaker. Same guy whose Lotus has not missed a beat this year?


:confused:

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P.S adrian newey and mclaren gave kimi Crap car in 2002 and 2004 (the famous MP4-18 blunder), and they cost kimi title in both 2003 and 2005, so if anyone is to blame is mclaren's poor design and mercedes's unreliable engine. :mad:

Edited by eronrules, 13 October 2012 - 19:42.


#111 DrF

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:41

Went right over your head.

#112 tifosiMac

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:43

Went right over your head.

I knew what you meant.

#113 eronrules

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:44

I knew what you meant.

i didn't ... did i miss something ??? :rolleyes:

#114 William Hunt

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:45

Alonso put it right when he said that only LH (and he) can win in slower car.


Ok, then please explain us how it was possible that Sebastian Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso? :well:

#115 DarthWillie

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:46

off course he is worthy, lets not forget, he is the first driver to win a WC in a newey car in 11 years. The doesn't do the magic, it still needs a driver. 2010 he had a good car with poor reliability, 2011 was easy, 2012 is a fight and he has kept himself in it. Despite the car not being great in the first half of the season.
By contrast, the mclaren has been the best car to have overal this year but is not even close to leading the championship. So just having the best car is not the only solution.

#116 ghost

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:47

nope, not even one. you've asked - i've answered.

#117 Alarcon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:51

Hear me out will ya!

Considering great drivers of the past such as Piquet (senior of course) Prost and Senna not to mention Mansell with one to his name and of course Lewis and Fernando on 1 and 2 respectively......


Does anyone feel Vettel hasnt done enough in terms of proof to warrant the entire archive of accolades hes been given such as 3 time wdc?


Im of the opinion that Vettel is right up there with Alonso and Hamilton to be honest but i cant help feel his victories are soooooo hollow when he leads across the finish line 20 seconds ahead, you dont do that with a second rate car, or equal car (as some forumners want us to believe) his car is so good and im sure about 90 percent of his victories if not more have come when the car is that good, it just feels for me, though i enjoy the spectacle of F1 more than anything which is probably why it bothers me, that Vettel has earnt 3 titles let alone 1 way too easily and way to soon then hes proven


Notice everyone not once have i said not deserved, every title in history has been deserved but he really hasnt had a chance to prove thin hungary he can do more then just pole to flag in a dominant car, and we've already seen In hungary both 2009 and 2012 for examples that Alonso and Hamilton can do the same, it seems to be Vettels only trick no matter how sucessful it is. Yet the other two also have master tacticianry and brutal wheel to wheel racing skills respectively to add to their talents.

So yeah i feel even now 5 races from the end red bull and vettel are deserving of 2012 WDC and WCC cause they have really done well but i do feel its a slight shame if im honest that Vettel has already overtaken the likes of Prost, Alonso, Piquet etc who really REALLY earnt their titles when Vettels had 3 years of a car capable of 20 second plus wins, 2011 being the easiest 2010 being the most earnt thus far and if he wins 2012 that will be his best.


Still i dont quite think its right, any opinions disagree or agree, lets keep this civil its a fair point.



Well this thread is not only nonsense but even stupid. But coming from a hater it´s even not worth, but here is the reply:

Was Jim Clark worthy of his 2 WDC? Check his career and his "way to win" (Vettel´s way). You should know about F1 history before mention Piquet or Alain.

This season has been THE MOST EQUAL AND DIFFICULT SEASON IN F1 HISTORY. And it´s a fact, not my impression. 7 different winners... If Vettel finally wins (we never know) he would become be the most amazing and deserved WDC ever, and with 6 WDC on the track (including him), then the most important WDC ever so far in F1 history.

End off.

Edited by Alarcon, 13 October 2012 - 19:53.


#118 Alarcon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:56

When did Alonso exactly blown it having the best car on the grid? Only 2007 could be considered and he had, let's just say, a difficult relationship with the team and an excellent driver as a team mate. I would like to see Vettel winning a WDC without having the best car or having to beat a A-class team mate. Maybe then he will establish himself as a class above. Meanwhile he's just collecting the WDCs served by Newey, which is fine, he will have seasons to prove his real value knowing he is already a 3xWDC. I would love that Alonso could have those rockets in Ferrari and I wouldn't mind if someone said he was winning because of the car.



Webber is a A class team mate.

Alonso had the best car in 2005, 2006 and 2007. And Alonso never faced a WDC team mate if you prefer... the first time he faced a fast team mate he cracked under pressure against him (2007). Since then he needed even Flavio order to crash his team mate on the wall... then nothing proved. But anyone has any doubt about Alonso´s value isn´t ???

Well this season has been the most equal season ever, if you fear Vettel or you can´t accept he can be able to win a WDC with exhaust, mapping or whatever the excuses you made last season... it´s your problem.

It´s not a question to opinion, it´s a fact.

Edited by Alarcon, 13 October 2012 - 19:58.


#119 race addicted

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 19:57

Ok, then please explain us how it was possible that Sebastian Vettel won a race in a Toro Rosso? :well:


It was a good drive but all the "normal" front-runners lined up way back. (Lottery qualifying.) Don't tell me you didn't know?

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#120 joshb

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:00

Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC title?
If he gets it, absolutely
3 in a row would be amazing- only ever done twice, from Bridgestones to Pirellis, F-Ducts, EBD, neither of them against the toughest field seen in 2 decades or more- amazing effort.
Same for RB if they make it 3 in a row. Amazing team, all 700 (or whatever it is) of them.
Those people pinning it all one 1 man is a poor show

#121 Miggeex

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:04

Whoever wins the title deserves it and is worth it.

Simple.

#122 Alarcon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:05

Fernando had to beat Kimi in a slower car in 2005. And he had to defeat Michael Schumacher in a straight fight in 2006.



Slower car ???

C´mon he had the best clutch in F1 history they gave him the possibility to overtake all the field on the starts.

Renault was fast and reliable. Mclaren was fast and unreliable.

Alonso won with the best pack both WDC, just as Seb did. However Vettel 2010 had to fight against Mark and against a fast but unreliable car.

#123 Alarcon

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:07

It was a good drive but all the "normal" front-runners lined up way back. (Lottery qualifying.) Don't tell me you didn't know?



Lottery qualy??? To beat a fast Kova in a McLaren by less than a tenth under the rain (when hands are important) is lottery???

:down:

Vettel must be very lucky because since then he has won the lottery 33 times and he´s the 3rd driver he won the most times the lottery in F1 history!!!

Edited by Alarcon, 13 October 2012 - 20:08.


#124 Miggeex

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:13

Whoever wins the title deserves it and is worth it.

Simple.

And the luck think... Isn't the whole sport based on luck when there's so many possible drivers who could win the title?
Others bad luck is good luck for someone else. When thinking it that way every win of any driver is due to good luck. If being "lucky" decreases the worth of title, none of the drivers were worth of the WC.

Circumstances on the other hand has a part in it but is that also about luck to get the right circumstances...?

Man this sport is complicated when getting too deep in it. :D

Edited by Miggeex, 13 October 2012 - 20:14.


#125 Masenco

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:16

He has shown this year that not only is he a great qualifier, but hes also a great racer.
He is one of the best drivers of this generation; the only thing is though that he has had consistently great cars over the past three years which have been either the class of the field or as close to. The fact that he is grabbing up these wdcs so much faster than the other great drivers of this generation shows that hes had an advantage being in redbull over the past three years.
So, on the basis that hes had an advantage being in rbr the past few years, i feel that he doesnt deserve three wdcs atm compared to other top tier drivers who are argueably as good, if not better than him

#126 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:20

Worthy? Yes he is. He is the only one on the grid besides FA and MS who is worthy of any number of WDC's. He is focused, talented, motivating, and he is is regularly beating his bloody fast teammate for the third consecutive year. He shows signs of hysteria when things are not going his way, and tends to kick the bucket. What more is needed to to be considered to be a worthy champion? Only one thing: he needs to to do a Hamilton, and switch teams, so that the pouting naysayers could put the topic to rest. I am not his fan btw. saying all that, the last dirver I have thought of as an unworthy WDC was Keke. And even then, I was not right about it. those are exactly the reasons why I do not wish him to win the WDC this season. He could need that bitch-slap, and I think Alonso deserves it more this season. My 2 cents only, needless to say.

Edited by Szoelloe, 13 October 2012 - 20:21.


#127 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:23

Have you considered the possibility that Red Bull doesn't really want two #1 drivers (despite what their PR may say)? This Vettel/Webber pairing has seemed to be working quite well for them, so why change it?

He's completely worthy of 3 WDC of course, and a great driver. I just wouldn't infer from Red Bulls driver choices that he is THE best current F1 driver. It's very hard to judge that sort of thing when the other top drivers (at least according to most) are in different teams. Vettel is also still in the early part of his career despite having so much success already, which makes it hard to compare to someone like Alonso who has been in F1 for 12 years and driven for many different teams.

Yes, I did. It is not so much about pairing Vettel and Hamilton. It is about having Vettel as their main driver along with someone else, instead of Hamilton as their main driver with someone else. Vettel's liking for Ferrari is no secret. There are already so many rumours for a 2014 switch itself. Vettel's contract was extended only last year. Hamilton's contract is ending this year. So, Red Bull may have wanted to prepare for Vettel's exit by roping in Hamilton as their next 'the' driver. But they did not. They have decided to take the chance with Vettel, and have hoped for Vettel-oriented team rather than someone else for the near future. Don't they have some doubt that someone else may be able to do better in their car? Why not try to have the absolute best driver for your team? If it is someone else, that is. When your car is want everyone wants, you are sticking with the one driver, and never want to change it, that says a lot about the driver in comparison to the rest of the field. It is not to say it is proof that he is the best driver. But it certainly proves how well rated he is, and absolutely deserves all the credit he has got along with the team. It totally rules out any doubt on whether he deserves all the titles he has had with that car. When such an apparently good car likes the driver so much, they absolutely go hand in hand. There is no question doubting what the driver has accomplished.

#128 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:24

What do you mean by great car? The one year both were in the 2007 Mclaren? That car wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination, and even if it was the two drivers were evenly matched. Imagine Vettel having Alonso in the other RB7...

He was beaten very closely in 2007. This time he might be beaten a bit more comfortably?

#129 race addicted

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:25

Lottery qualy??? To beat a fast Kova in a McLaren by less than a tenth under the rain (when hands are important) is lottery???

:down:

Vettel must be very lucky because since then he has won the lottery 33 times and he´s the 3rd driver he won the most times the lottery in F1 history!!!


We all know rain-hit Q-sessions can turn into lotteries. In this race we had Aloso, Kubica, Hamilton and Räikkönen way down the order.

Don't pretend I'm saying all his poles have been the result of lotteries.

#130 rijole1

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:42

Yes, if he wins, he deserves it :)

#131 Mandzipop

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:49

Funny you should mention this...I don't think Alonso would have had such a stupid accident as Vettel with Karthikeyan.

Apart that, the first half of the season showed clearly that Vettel isn't the driver which excels when not having the fastest car.
I wish he had a whole season with a car which is consistently 0.4s or so off pace. Somehow I hope Lauda can bring Newey to Mercedes, and Vettel continues with RB sans Newey.
Then we can decide whether he is or not a real big champion or just a Newey-spoiled driver as there have been others...


At the beginning of the year the RB8 was not the best car on the grid, it was very hit and miss. It has only been the last 3 races that it has had some consistancy in speed.

Race-pace wise Red Bull, Ferrari and Mclaren have been trading it between them with an occasional upset.

Seb has had some reliabilty issues like everyone else.

Seb has only had one season in F1 with a bullet-proof fast and reliable car and that was last year. And he made full advantage of it like any WDC should.

Not every point he has scored since he came into F1 has been in a Newey designed car.  ;)

Look at the all time greats, how did they win? I mean, Fangio is regarded as an all time great. True he raced in a very dangerous era, but he still always had the best car, and if his wasn't working then his teammate would give up his car for him? Does he not deserve his titles?

What about when they used to have the spare car? Or even when drivers would swap cars with their teammates if the set-up worked on their teammates cars. Are any of those drivers not deserving of their WDC's either.

Many people look at it with rose tinted glasses.

The teams are closer in speed, the equality is closer than yesteryear. So does that make him more undeserving than his predecessors?

#132 djparky

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:49

yes he is- probably more this year than last when he hasn't had the benefit of a considerable car advantage. Plus there's not many orld champions who could be that funny on Top Gear

#133 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:07

He gets the job done, period. What more can you ask from a driver in a sport where the car is more important than the driver. However not every driver will achieve what he's done with a car capable of winning.

Would any other driver on the grid done better than him in a RB? No, because you can't do better than winning.

Is he the best driver on the grid? I guess the answer to that question is who you support!

Deserving? Again, if he wins it this year again I'm sure RBR doesn't regret their driver choice.


THIS

#134 pacwest

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:17

Bold prediction. Once he leaves RedBull he wins no more WDC titles.

Worthy? Yes. Wins with grace? Nope.

#135 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:19

At the beginning of the year the RB8 was not the best car on the grid, it was very hit and miss. It has only been the last 3 races that it has had some consistancy in speed.


It wasn't 'the best' but it was arguably second best in quali pace and competitive in race pace.

They qualified fourth and fifth in Aus, with Mark Webber getting fourth despite not having KERS on his final quali run which would have put him close to the McLarens and ahead of Schumacher.

Then from Bahrain until Hockenheim (Barcelona excluded) You either had a Red bull winning a race or on pole. It was only Hungary, the power tracks of Spa and Monza which made Red Bull appear uncompetitive and than after that they were back up there again.

Edited by Kvothe, 13 October 2012 - 21:24.


#136 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:20

Bold prediction. Once he leaves RedBull he wins no more WDC titles.

Worthy? Yes. Wins with grace? Nope.


You could maybe elaborate on the 'grace' part? Would make your post intelligible.


#137 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:27

Bold prediction. Once he leaves RedBull he wins no more WDC titles.

Worthy? Yes. Wins with grace? Nope.

First, try to stop him winning the titles. Then you can say 'no more'.

#138 aditya-now

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:27

Alonso put it right when he said that only LH (and he) can win in slower car.


That's the crux of the matter.

Indeed Seb's wins sometimes feel hollow...and he never compared to a top driver (excuses to Mark, who is solid, but not great).


#139 pacwest

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:28

You could maybe elaborate on the 'grace' part? Would make your post intelligible.



It is not intelligible. To people who are not a fan of him, his finger waving and bitching about being held up, punted, etc. comes across as entitlement.

Winning and waving to the crowd or running to the crew and celebrating is far more classy than shoving a finger in the camera. When he loses, he loses with distaste. when he wins, he wins with arrogance.

I've watched F1 a long time. I could not really care less about some of the aspects of the "details" these days. I have become a bit shallow in favouring drivers based on their humanity or sporting personality. Maybe I just don't understand Germans since I am from Western Canada and am very far removed from such personalities. Generalisations yes, but I'm trying to paint a clearer picture for you.

Edited by pacwest, 13 October 2012 - 21:29.


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#140 aditya-now

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:34

It is not intelligible. To people who are not a fan of him, his finger waving and bitching about being held up, punted, etc. comes across as entitlement.

Winning and waving to the crowd or running to the crew and celebrating is far more classy than shoving a finger in the camera. When he loses, he loses with distaste. when he wins, he wins with arrogance.

I've watched F1 a long time. I could not really care less about some of the aspects of the "details" these days. I have become a bit shallow in favouring drivers based on their humanity or sporting personality. Maybe I just don't understand Germans since I am from Western Canada and am very far removed from such personalities. Generalisations yes, but I'm trying to paint a clearer picture for you.


Completely agree with you - couldn't put it better.

Although, not all Germans are like this, and not all Germans are a fan of Seb and his ways (likewise, not every German liked Schumacher).

Grace is another thing and not a word I would apply on Vettel - to me Senna had grace, Alonso develops grace, the early drivers (50s, 60s) definitely had grace.

#141 SpartanChas

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:34

Yes. Alonso and Hamilton have driven better over the course of the season but it's the points at the end that matter and he's stayed close enough to pick up the pieces when their campaigns falter.

The only thing I think he's missing now is some spectacular race win like Kimi in Japan 05, Button in Canada 2011 or Alonso at Valencia this year. He's only ever won from right at the front of the grid. He's still far fron the end of his career though so it'll come sooner or later. Arguably Senna's greates victory was in his last full season.

And yeah, I hope he moves to a different team and wins with them too. I have doubts about whether he could beat Alonso as a teammate.

Edited by SpartanChas, 13 October 2012 - 21:37.


#142 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:39

Yes. Alonso and Hamilton have driven better over the course of the season but it's the points at the end that matter.

The only thing I think he's missing now is some spectacular race win like Kimi in Japan 05, Button in Canada 2011 or Alonso at Valencia this year. He's only ever won from right at the front of the grid. He's still far fron the end of his career though so it'll come sooner or later. Arguably Senna's greates victory was in his last full season.


And yeah, I hope he moves to a different team and wins with them too. I have doubts about whether he could beat Alonso as a teammate.




This is pretty much true. Although, Vettel had some great victories in 2009 aganist the Brawn.

But something is missing; like Schumacher of Spain 1996 or Spa 1997 or Monaco 97, Hungary 98, European GP 2000 or Japan 2000 of that quality or Spa 2002, San Marino 02 also... Senna had a great number of those. Alonso has some himself, Hungary 2006 (before he retired) or Imola 05, Japan 08, Brazil 05.

With Schumacher's early career (1991-1995) I can name a few such as Spa 92, Spain 94, Spa 95, European GP 95 and probably others.

Edited by George Costanza, 13 October 2012 - 21:42.


#143 GAZF1nut

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:40

Wouldn't it be better to wait until the end of the season before discussing this?

#144 One

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:41

If Helmut Marco is not there, and does it, then yes. Otherwise No, IMHO.

#145 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:44

Although, Vettel had some great victories in 2009 aganist the Brawn.

Like?

#146 jjcale

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:45

Yes ... he is a very good and preofessional driver ... but his 3 in a row will be like MS' 5 in a row..... not as respected as it should be because of having the best car and a subservient team mate (even though MW is far from being as badly treated as Rubens was).

Could any other top driver have done the same given the same opportunity ... yes.... but Would they? ... therein is what make SV more special than the rest ATM.

#147 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:46

It is not intelligible. To people who are not a fan of him, his finger waving and bitching about being held up, punted, etc. comes across as entitlement.

Winning and waving to the crowd or running to the crew and celebrating is far more classy than shoving a finger in the camera. When he loses, he loses with distaste. when he wins, he wins with arrogance.

I've watched F1 a long time. I could not really care less about some of the aspects of the "details" these days. I have become a bit shallow in favouring drivers based on their humanity or sporting personality. Maybe I just don't understand Germans since I am from Western Canada and am very far removed from such personalities. Generalisations yes, but I'm trying to paint a clearer picture for you.


As expected, that earns a LOL. 'Finger frustration' is a common syndrome nowadays, all you can do, is get used to it. It is frustrating, yes, but it is a trademark. It is not a birdie,even if you feel it is. :lol:


#148 George Costanza

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:46

Like?



China 09 for an example. Brawn was quite scary fast in the first half, we all know.

#149 LiJu914

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:48

This is pretty much true. Although, Vettel had some great victories in 2009 aganist the Brawn.

But something is missing; like Schumacher of Spain 1996 or Spa 1997 or Monaco 97, Hungary 98, European GP 2000 or Japan 2000 of that quality. Senna had a great number of those. Alonso has some himself, Hungary 2006 (before he retired) or Imola 05, Japan 08, Brazil 05.



I can remember way more spectacular race wins by Mansell than Prost - whose only really impressive race-win, that i can spontaneously remember, was in Mexico 1990. But i think not many would rate Mansell higher than Prost...

So this aspect doesn´t prove much imho (even tough i think nonetheless that ALO is better and HAM at least more talented).

#150 Kvothe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:49

China 09 for an example. Brawn was quite scary fast in the first half, we all know.


You mean where Red Bull finally incorporated the DDD, making them (imo) the fastest car and securing a Red Bull lockout?