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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#201 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:38

By whom? :confused: . He has been this way before Vettel, nothing to do with teammates.


Well, by me, e.g.. You may had that opinion, but he was not even close to having title-capable hardware at his disposal. If not for Vettel, he could be a WDC by now. You cannot deny that. Nobody can, he was very close as it is.

Edited by Szoelloe, 13 October 2012 - 23:39.


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#202 engel

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:40

This type of thread always makes me giggle a bit. You ask a fan of any driver, they want their driver driving the best car. When their driver doesn't drive the best car then the other guy that's driving it is useless and needs to step down from the best car (which their driver will happily drive) to prove he's worthy.

Schumi won 7 championships with puppet teammates and rocketships. By the logic of some in this thread he's a useless clown cause he didn't race Mika or Kimi or Jacques or Montoya or whoever in identical cars. But then again, Hakkinen was obviously pretty mediocre too since he only beat Coulthard and Brundle/Blundell oh yeah and a bored, slightly overweight Mansell that didn't "fit in the car" (or was too bored to turn up).

There is nothing "unworthy" in F1. Nothing. Not one championship, not two, not three not seven. The only "unworthy" achievement was Singapore 08, everything else is just bias. Whoever wins the championship this season will be a very worthy champion. It has been a close season, with ups and downs for everybody and wild fluctuations in car performance, whoever manages to get his ducks in a row and win it in the end will be a classic WDC in my opinion.

#203 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:43

^^

case closed

#204 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:43

He is worthy, without doubt.

I don't think he is as good as Alonso and I feel 2 championships under values Alonso's skill but that doesn't mean Vettel doesn't deserve it. He's great too, just that little bit less great in my opinion.

#205 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:43

Every single person in the paddock during his Jaguar years. Most of people during his Williams years. Not that much people now ;)


I didn't have that perception then. Anyway what you depict seems the fate of many of the drivers that enter F1: great expectations and then the truth.

#206 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:45

I didn't have that perception then. Anyway what you depict seems the fate of many of the drivers that enter F1: great expectations and then the truth.


In essence, that is what this thread is about, no?


#207 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:47

Well, by me, e.g.. You may had that opinion, but he was not even close to having title-capable hardware at his disposal. If not for Vettel, he could be a WDC by now. You cannot deny that. Nobody can, he was very close as it is.


And that's my point all along, you can be WDC without being a top class driver, you just have to be in the right place at the right moment. Webber could have, Massa was one lap short to be, Button was... And I never said Vettel is not a top driver, I'm just no sure yet.

#208 Tauhid

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:49

He deserves the two titles he has under his name and he will deservedly win this years as well, not unless Hamilton makes a miraculous turnaround. Alonso has been the driver of the season but his car and team has let him down so far. He'd be lucky to leave Korea in the lead. Vettel is a supreme driver but he doesn't stack up to to the best in the business simply because everyone knows its Alonso and Hamilton at the very top and then him. Don't get me wrong, on a good day with a great car, he is simply untouchable and I always tend to like him because he is very positive. But he is a bad loser and has a bit of childishness in his character.

But we are not here to judge his personality as a human being, we are here to discuss his racing pedigree. He has it all. Age, Time and a great team with a fascinating designer to work to his favour. He is completely focused unlike Lewis and he has a clean slate unlike Alonso's. So yes he has a long way to go to become the best and if he wins this year, then he will have deserved it more because that would mean he scored the most points at the end of the year when its crunch time. That would mean he'd have beaten all his rivals in pure pace in the latter part of the season when it truly matters.

Edited by Tauhid, 13 October 2012 - 23:51.


#209 showtime

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 23:51

In essence, that is what this thread is about, no?


Well, let's just say some driver's truth is more disappointing than others. For all I care Webber may have been considered a future legend, the truth is he is just a decent F1 driver with some bright moments, and I thought that way before Vettel.

#210 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:00

And that's my point all along, you can be WDC without being a top class driver, you just have to be in the right place at the right moment. Webber could have, Massa was one lap short to be, Button was... And I never said Vettel is not a top driver, I'm just no sure yet.


Yes, and no. You cannot be a WDC without being a top-class driver. Webber's misfortune(undoing) was having SV as a teammate, because I rate Webber as a top-class driver. SV is elite. Like Senna, FA, MS, NL from the established ones.

#211 HP

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:07

If you have access to Autosport plus, read the following.

http://plus.autospor...st-and-present/

Sir Jackie Stewart has some interesting insights on Vettel and others, which gave me an idea why Vettel and the team truly deserves a 3 times WDC. He mentions one thing that he has in common with Alonso, and that made also his 3 own WDC's achievements possible. And he also thinks that taking the crown 3 times in a row with the same team is quite an astonishing feat of the entire team. So read the article if you can to get an opinion of someone who was been there.

It's true that Vettel is in the right team, but that has always been the same. MSC once said, "In a dud of a car I can't win either". F1 is a team sport, everybody in the team has to deliver his best. In that sense Vettel has a truly formidable asset behind him. But any driver has still to make the best of the package given to him.

Now in relation to KR, FA, LH, not having that much WDC's. They do have one thing in common. They all lost possible WDC's in the same team. It's name is McLaren. Like it or not. McLaren best days have been in the last century. This is a fact, even though I am sure some will want to point out the issues McLaren had with FiA. McLaren might regain their best form again anytime, IMO if they look hard at themselves how they run their team, and how they approach important relationships.

My point here is that on driving skills, all of those drivers mentioned deserve more WDC's. But the decisions away from the wheel are as important as the drivers skills. And from what I read so far, Vettel gets the best recommendations. How the driver manages himself out of the cockpit, is as important as the driving itself. And that probably is the difference why some drivers get a bit further in their career than others. And that isn't something new, but has been the case also for Sir Jackie Stewart and drivers before him.

So IMO yes, Vettel will be a worthy 3 WDC, when considering everything that is required to be successful. If I look just at him driving only then yes, I do understand the reservations some have. But talent alone gets you only so far (KR and LH). IMO FA and SV (and MSC) are currently the best of the current drivers at using their brains off track too. And so it doesn't surprise me that most likely one of them will be a 3 time WDC at the end of this season.



#212 showtime

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:09

Yes, and no. You cannot be a WDC without being a top-class driver. Webber's misfortune(undoing) was having SV as a teammate, because I rate Webber as a top-class driver. SV is elite. Like Senna, FA, MS, NL from the established ones.


Who cares how you call it? The point was Vettel has little opposition by the other RB car as Hamilton or Alonso would have if Webber drove for McLaren or Ferrari. Going back on topic, IMO Vettel has just proved he's faster than a second tier driver while driving a rocket on rails. And once again, good for him and his fans! F1 works this way and sooner or later he will be driving a not so dominant car (probably not even the best car) and he will be able to show how good he really is.

#213 ali_M

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:17

But, he does have a top class teammate in Webber. Those that think otherwise are IMHO wrong. One does not have to be a WDC to be a top class teammate.


:up:

Absolutely!! Webber was never a slouch in qualifying especially. Now, Seb regularly gets the better of him. Webber also continues to win races and has led Seb in the championship chase both in 2010 and 2011. Webber is no pushover. He just lacks that extra bit of consistency and pace where it often counts critically to results. Things tend to add up over a race weekend. Seb has the phenomenal ability to deliver when needed. This is what has earned him his 3rd chance at a championship. Of course, as with all champions to date, they need a car that will deliver as well.

#214 Velocifer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:24

A driver wins 3 titles in a row, often coming from behind, and then people are actually asking if he would be worthy??

It's threads like this that are not worthy of F1..

#215 mnmracer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:41

Im of the opinion that Vettel is right up there with Alonso and Hamilton to be honest but i cant help feel his victories are soooooo hollow when he leads across the finish line 20 seconds ahead, you dont do that with a second rate car, or equal car (as some forumners want us to believe) his car is so good and im sure about 90 percent of his victories if not more have come when the car is that good, it just feels for me, though i enjoy the spectacle of F1 more than anything which is probably why it bothers me, that Vettel has earnt 3 titles let alone 1 way too easily and way to soon then hes proven


Let me relieve you of that bother :)
Because unlike what you and many others think, it is not uncommon for WDCs to win a race with big margins.
Actually, not only are Alonso and Vettel very close in the way they've won their races, but it's also with much smaller margins than 'back when'.
All you have to do is take a breather, sit back, and realise what really happened. Romantic as it is to think big of the days of yonder, when races were won from the 58th starting position, battling the entire race to finish within half a second of each other, it is completely untrue.

Is he (or Alonso) worthy of having that 3 behind their name?
Based on your perception of worthiness, both would be the most worthy 3x WDCs in history.

Jack Brabham won 79% of his 14 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 74% of his 27 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 39% of his 23 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 34% of his 41 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 32% of his 25 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won just 8% of his 24 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won just 7% of his 30 races with more than 20 seconds lead

If you change your mind and consider 10s to be the threshold, they are still soundly at the bottom:
Jack Brabham won 93% of his 14 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 81% of his 27 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 70% of his 23 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 59% of his 41 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 52% of his 25 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won 47% of his 30 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won 42% of his 24 races with more than 10 seconds lead


Of all the 3-time WDC's + Vettel + Alonso, this is how they have won their races:
Won the race by 0s – 5s
Fernando Alonso : 37%
Sebastian Vettel: 33%
Niki Lauda: 28%
Ayrton Senna: 27%
Jackie Stewart: 19%
Nelson Piquet: 13%
Jack Brabham: 0%

Won the race by 5s – 10s
Sebastian Vettel: 25%
Niki Lauda: 20%
Nelson Piquet: 17%
Fernando Alonso : 17%
Ayrton Senna: 15%
Jack Brabham: 7%
Jackie Stewart: 0%

Won the race by 10s – 20s
Fernando Alonso : 40%
Sebastian Vettel: 33%
Nelson Piquet: 30%
Ayrton Senna: 24%
Niki Lauda: 20%
Jack Brabham: 14%
Jackie Stewart: 7%

Won the race by 20s – 30s
Jackie Stewart: 26%
Jack Brabham: 21%
Niki Lauda: 16%
Nelson Piquet: 9%
Sebastian Vettel: 8%
Fernando Alonso : 7%
Ayrton Senna: 7%

Won the race by more than 30s
Jack Brabham: 57%
Jackie Stewart: 48%
Nelson Piquet: 30%
Ayrton Senna: 27%
Niki Lauda: 16%
Fernando Alonso : 0%
Sebastian Vettel: 0%


Edited by mnmracer, 14 October 2012 - 00:44.


#216 Spillage

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:45

Yes. To have won three championships before your 26th birthday is an unbelievable achievement. To be honest, we may not see anybody accomplish that again in our lifetimes. So he deserves it, and full respect to him if he achieves it

#217 showtime

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:57

A driver wins 3 titles in a row, often coming from behind, and then people are actually asking if he would be worthy??

It's threads like this that are not worthy of F1..


Excuse me?


#218 mnmracer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:00

Excuse me?

A statement equally silly to those that say that "the great ones" all came winning from behind.

#219 KOMORI

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:14

The kid has won the WDC TWICE.

TWO TIMES.

And I'd say at this point at pretty short odds to make it three in a row.

I don't care what anyone says about his off or on track hissy fits or ocassionally petulant spats, he seems like a genuinely nice kid in general and by geez he can steer a car. Personally, if I were a team principle I'd DEFINATELY want him in one of my cars..... and regardless of my earlier praise I'm not a fan of his at all.

But Seb has damn well earned MY respect, and any whom don't hold him and his abilities in fairly high regard is blinded by blatant fanboyism. Yes, he's had a bloody good car under him but he's maximized it's potential in every way and frankly dominated his team mate who's no slouch.

So yes, in MY opinion he's well worthy of being a 3xWDC.

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#220 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:28

And once again, good for him and his fans! F1 works this way and sooner or later he will be driving a not so dominant car (probably not even the best car) and he will be able to show how good he really is.

He had driven a not-so-dominant car in 2008 and outpointed his teammate, a 4-time Champ Car champion, 35pts to 4pts. He also outpointed the two Red Bull drivers that year, and delivered Red Bull organization its 1st ever race win while driving a not-so-dominant car.



#221 Wheels23

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:45

Hey you win it or get close to winning it. Then why aren't you worthy?

#222 showtime

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:47

He had driven a not-so-dominant car in 2008 and outpointed his teammate, a 4-time Champ Car champion, 35pts to 4pts. He also outpointed the two Red Bull drivers that year, and delivered Red Bull organization its 1st ever race win while driving a not-so-dominant car.


The 4-time Champ Car champion that was sacked mid-season the next year? As for the Red Bulls well, the car was inferior to the STR so it wasn't a surprise. He did a great season but the myth is exaggerated IMO, that STR was a decent car. Anyway, if that was good enough for you to rate him as high as the best...


#223 Velocifer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:56

Excuse me?

Look the words up in a dictionary if you don't know what they mean.

#224 bourbon

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:20

Greatness is not given.

Greatness is taken.





#225 pacwest

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:05

Greatness is not given.

Greatness is taken.



Chance favours the prepared. Newey has prepared it well.

:smoking:

#226 packapoo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:12

Yes.


You got it :up:

(And I can't be bothered reading further).

#227 klyster

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:44

I don't really like or support Sebastian, but if he wins for the 3rd time, I can't see any reason why he doesn't "deserve" it...

#228 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:45

NOBODY flukes 3 WDC :smoking:


...in a row.

#229 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:50

I just listen to what he says in public and how he acts in public. He's an extremely good racer who is worthy of his titles. His age is showing perhaps. As he ages he will be more diplomatic maybe and possibly more understanding of how he got to where he is. I do not see him as down to earth at all when he opens his mouth. Maybe that's the Canadian in me.

Understand that I live in a part of the world where there is zero F1 press. I see no SKY, ITV or BBC video post/pre race etc. All I see is the race feed, the press conference and his interviews. I pay zero attention to propaganda or marketing. I simply watch the race and follow a few pundits on twitter.

My assessment of him is shared by my wife who speaks fluent German and lived there for years. She dislikes his attitude and we are very different when it comes to our F1 tastes.


Translation: I don't have all the information and have made up my mind. Any more information I dismiss as propaganda and marketing.

#230 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:53

Let me relieve you of that bother :)
Because unlike what you and many others think, it is not uncommon for WDCs to win a race with big margins.
Actually, not only are Alonso and Vettel very close in the way they've won their races, but it's also with much smaller margins than 'back when'.
All you have to do is take a breather, sit back, and realise what really happened. Romantic as it is to think big of the days of yonder, when races were won from the 58th starting position, battling the entire race to finish within half a second of each other, it is completely untrue.

Is he (or Alonso) worthy of having that 3 behind their name?
Based on your perception of worthiness, both would be the most worthy 3x WDCs in history.

Jack Brabham won 79% of his 14 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 74% of his 27 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 39% of his 23 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 34% of his 41 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 32% of his 25 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won just 8% of his 24 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won just 7% of his 30 races with more than 20 seconds lead

If you change your mind and consider 10s to be the threshold, they are still soundly at the bottom:
Jack Brabham won 93% of his 14 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 81% of his 27 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 70% of his 23 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 59% of his 41 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 52% of his 25 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won 47% of his 30 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won 42% of his 24 races with more than 10 seconds lead


/thread :up:

#231 pacwest

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:54

Translation: I don't have all the information and have made up my mind. Any more information I dismiss as propaganda and marketing.


Twist it as you will.

#232 Cult

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:45

Vettel will go down as one of the greats. People's perception are clouded by the fact the Red Bull looks like a dream to drive, it never struggles, it's just planted and on rails :lol:

#233 Realyn

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:10

edit: nvm ..

Edited by Realyn, 14 October 2012 - 07:11.


#234 krea

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:13

No? The Mp4/24 ('09) was the third or second worst car for the first third of the season!


Crazy talk...



#235 2ms

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:57

I can understand people wondering whether or not someone like Alonso's WDC were "worth" as much as others when he clearly had the decisive hardware advantage in 2 years and then has failed to win anything since for 5 years.

However, it makes much less sense to doubt Vettel's achievements. This has been the closest season that I know of hardware-wise. 2010 also, he had to overcome losing over 70 points to reliability problems. 2011 was the only season he had a hardware advantage the way 2005-2006 and 2009 winners did. He is the only one of these drivers who has been able to duplicate the results in other years.

I think these threads reflect a lot of envy and bitterness.

#236 ForzaGTR

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:04

Give it 18 months and we will have a topic "Is Vettel a worthy 4xWDC?"

Of course he is worthy. You don't win that many races by luck.

#237 F.M.

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:04

Give it 18 months and we will have a topic "Is Vettel a worthy 4xWDC?"

Of course he is worthy. You don't win that many races by luck.

:confused:

#238 Cult

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:45

Let me relieve you of that bother :)
Because unlike what you and many others think, it is not uncommon for WDCs to win a race with big margins.
Actually, not only are Alonso and Vettel very close in the way they've won their races, but it's also with much smaller margins than 'back when'.
All you have to do is take a breather, sit back, and realise what really happened. Romantic as it is to think big of the days of yonder, when races were won from the 58th starting position, battling the entire race to finish within half a second of each other, it is completely untrue.

Is he (or Alonso) worthy of having that 3 behind their name?
Based on your perception of worthiness, both would be the most worthy 3x WDCs in history.

Jack Brabham won 79% of his 14 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 74% of his 27 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 39% of his 23 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 34% of his 41 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 32% of his 25 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won just 8% of his 24 races with more than 20 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won just 7% of his 30 races with more than 20 seconds lead

If you change your mind and consider 10s to be the threshold, they are still soundly at the bottom:
Jack Brabham won 93% of his 14 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Jackie Stewart won 81% of his 27 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Nelson Piquet won 70% of his 23 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Ayrton Senna won 59% of his 41 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Niki Lauda won 52% of his 25 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Fernando Alonso won 47% of his 30 races with more than 10 seconds lead
Sebastian Vettel won 42% of his 24 races with more than 10 seconds lead


Firstly great post however there are several factors which make the comparison between old and new reasonably redundant:

1) Cars are much easier to drive with higher levels of downforce, this makes the handling traits far more predictable and therefore time differences across the field are far, far smaller
2) With limited components a driver is not encouraged to win by a margin, so many of Vettel's and Alonso's wins would have been cruises to the finish

I agree in principle however and F1 is 80% car, 20% driver. Vettel's surely maximised his potential when the car has been handling well.


#239 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:05

1) Cars are much easier to drive with higher levels of downforce, this makes the handling traits far more predictable and therefore time differences across the field are far, far smaller
2) With limited components a driver is not encouraged to win by a margin, so many of Vettel's and Alonso's wins would have been cruises to the finish


Hey, you set the criteria yourself :drunk: Why you destroy it now?

Anyway, glad to see you know how much nonsense it´s to judge a performance depending on difference to second place man.

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#240 ViMaMo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:25

+ People often forget or don't want to see how the 2010 went for Alonso.
He has got 59 points advantage over Vettel due to reliability issues (Vettel had lost 13 points in Bahrain, 25 in Australia and 25 in Koream while Alonso only 4 points in Malaysia due to car failures. If you count how many points Alonso had gained due to Vettel's reliability issues, the amount of points increases to 75).

If you include that Alonso has lost that title by just 4 points, he is guilty himself for that. He had jumped the start in China, he had missed qualifying session in Monaco due to his crash in FP3, he had been struggling big time in Turkey, he had overtaken Kubica out of the circuit in Great Britain and got penalty for that, he had screwed his Q3 lap in Belgium and he had crashed into the wall in Belgium. He could have easily won the title but he just made too many mistakes.


At what point in season did Alonso have a 59 point advantage over Vettel? Sure Alonso made some mistakes that season but no way did he enjoy a dominant car. You can go along and make up some of that crazy math.

Ofcourse Vettel deserves all his titles.

Edited by ViMaMo, 14 October 2012 - 10:30.


#241 mardmarium

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:28

If Vettel wins the 3WDC, he will be worthy of it, Why not?

I don´t believe in good/bad luck, in fact, luck theories sound like excuses to me. I believe in work and talent. Drivers who are up there deserve being where they are. Whoever will win (Vettel seems to be best placed) will be worthy of it.

#242 King Six

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:36

If Vettel wins the 3WDC, he will be worthy of it, Why not?

I don´t believe in good/bad luck, in fact, luck theories sound like excuses to me. I believe in work and talent. Drivers who are up there deserve being where they are. Whoever will win (Vettel seems to be best placed) will be worthy of it.

Agreed. The guy has done a great job with what he has been given, you can't ask for more than that. He's not the first by far and he certainly won't be the last guy who has done this. He's had some luck but he's also had plenty of unluck...

#243 BigWicks

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:36

You don't win three world championships if you're a bad driver.

What's a shame is that he hasn't had a real head to head battle for a title yet, that's how you judge the true worth of a driver.

#244 mnmracer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:52

You don't win three world championships if you're a bad driver.

What's a shame is that he hasn't had a real head to head battle for a title yet, that's how you judge the true worth of a driver.


Standings going into the 2010 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
1: Fernando Alonso 246
2: Mark Webber 238
3: Sebastian Vettel 231

Standings going into the 2010 Brazilian Grand Prix
1: Fernando Alonso 231
2: Mark Webber 220
3: Lewis Hamilton 210
4: Sebastian Vettel 206

#245 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:53

You don't win three world championships if you're a bad driver.

What's a shame is that he hasn't had a real head to head battle for a title yet, that's how you judge the true worth of a driver.

Yeah, because 2010 was such a walk in the park, and this 2012 he has had it all: a reliable car, an unbeatable car in the rain, the best car in fast, low-downforce tracks , a solid one in qualifying on day one, great top speed to make up places in the races when necessary...

#246 BigWicks

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:00

uncanny how similar 2010 and 2012 are, he has ended up in situation in both where Alonso gets himself a lead against a field of 3-4 contenders and Vettel comes steaming through with a much faster package at the end. But you don't get head to head confrontations in that situation sadly.

I want to see Vettel involved in a title battle like Alonso vs Schumacher 06, Hamilton vs Massa 08, Schumacher vs Mika 00, Schumacher vs Villenuve in 97, I could list more but I'm sure you get the point I'm making. Intense battles, 2 drivers had the front of the grid going wheel to wheel in title defining battles.

Edited by BigWicks, 14 October 2012 - 11:00.


#247 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:09

You don't win three world championships if you're a bad driver.

What's a shame is that he hasn't had a real head to head battle for a title yet, that's how you judge the true worth of a driver.

You can't really blame him for this, right?

2010 was a rather special year since he spotted everyone to win the WDC at the last GP, which Alonso could have won if Ferrari did not screw up his strategies then.

#248 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:11

uncanny how similar 2010 and 2012 are, he has ended up in situation in both where Alonso gets himself a lead against a field of 3-4 contenders and Vettel comes steaming through with a much faster package at the end. But you don't get head to head confrontations in that situation sadly.

I want to see Vettel involved in a title battle like Alonso vs Schumacher 06, Hamilton vs Massa 08, Schumacher vs Mika 00, Schumacher vs Villenuve in 97, I could list more but I'm sure you get the point I'm making. Intense battles, 2 drivers had the front of the grid going wheel to wheel in title defining battles.

Thing is, in 2010 Ferrari was really darn fast (of their victories that year, how many were 1-2, and how many had both Ferrari on the podium?), and this year Ferrari is no slouch either. In the last two races Vettel had the upper hand (marginally at this track). Massa's pace was at Vettel's level whenever Felipe was on clean air (and before he was told Alonso was slower than him). Next race it could be another Monza-like performance for RedBull, or Alonso could go back to his mid-year form (where on 3 consecutive races he finished P1-P2-P1, and Vettel didn't even make it to the podium there).
Ferrari and RedBull have been quite evenly matched all year long, Ferrari has had an obvious advantage in changing conditions (while RedBull has suffered there) and lately, RedBull appears to have "discovered" something for qualifying while Ferrari is still not quite there.
Ferrari has a question mark regarding single lap pace, RedBull has its weakness on reliability (which is more expensive than a 2-3rd row start...)
I think it is quite evenly matched at the moment, even though Vettel has had the best out of Alonso for the last handful of races.

#249 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:12

You can't really blame him for this, right?

2010 was a rather special year since he spotted everyone to win the WDC at the last GP, which Alonso could have won if Ferrari did not screw up his strategies then.

Alonso could have won if he had chosen not to focus his race strategy on Webber... Getting caught behind Petrov was a consequence of Alonso covering Webber and underestimating his other competitors.

#250 BigWicks

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:13

You can't really blame him for this, right?

2010 was a rather special year since he spotted everyone to win the WDC at the last GP, which Alonso could have won if Ferrari did not screw up his strategies then.


Jesus I'm not blaming or having a go at him I'm just saying it's a shame he's not been involved in that sort of title battle yet in his career.