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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#301 tifosiMac

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:56

It does seem now that Lewis will not win a second WDC before 2014 at the earliest. The emergence of Red Bull and Vettel could not easily be foreseen at that time, and McLaren looked like a good bet for the five year contract he signed at the end of 07 (covering 08-12).

The real difficulty for Lewis now is that he has been unable to wrangle a Red Bull (or even Ferrari) seat for his next contract. Then again, Mercedes could do what Red Bull has done, and emerge as a title winning force. However, that is a long shot and these next three years are some of Lewis's peak years.

He's still a WDC at the end of the day, and for me he could finish his career as a one time WDC and still be one of the greats. His performance today showed why he is one of the best on the current grid and will always be a danger where ever he drives. This era isn't confined to one driver.

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#302 ayali

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:07

The Schumacher era brought the sports popularity to its knees and I don't wish to see it like that again.

Hardly, perhaps for some in the UK but the sport thrived, Ferrari winning is good for F1 just ask Bernie :lol:

A thrilling finish between Alonso and Vettel is just what red blooded racing fans need from this year
I will celebrate regardless of who becomes a 3 times WDC :up:



#303 apoka

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:09

Well we weren't to know Red Bull were going to produce a series of cars that were better than the rest. Seb has got the job done in the best machinery and I would imagine that would hurt Lewis. He knows in the same position he would have done exactly the same and its frustrating.


Well, who knows whether he would have done the same. You cannot simply assume that Vettels achievements can be easily duplicated. I doubt it to be honest, but at the very least it is not a fact.

It must hurt Seb though to know many people still rate him behind Alonso and Hamilton though.

I'm not so sure that is a fact either. I would guess that Vettel is on average rated higher than Hamilton. But after all, those rating are still subject to change and their careers will last many more years. Better to focus on the next race instead of convincing as many people as possible.

I think all 3 will be considered F1 greats in due time.


#304 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:11

It does seem now that Lewis will not win a second WDC before 2014 at the earliest. The emergence of Red Bull and Vettel could not easily be foreseen at that time, and McLaren looked like a good bet for the five year contract he signed at the end of 07 (covering 08-12).

The real difficulty for Lewis now is that he has been unable to wrangle a Red Bull (or even Ferrari) seat for his next contract. Then again, Mercedes could do what Red Bull has done, and emerge as a title winning force. However, that is a long shot and these next three years are some of Lewis's peak years.

Vettel if he does win his 3rd in a row deserves it no doubt.

2010 - Reliability issues cost him a huge chunk of points, naivety nearly cost him as well HOWEVER he turned it around in a great way and Singapore 2010 when he finished behind Alonso he said on the team radio "Don't you worry, we will get them" and not to mention Korea 2010 which was heartbreaking but Sebastian still had faith in himself and the team that they would win the Championship and he stayed cool under pressure and delivered the title.

2011 - A masterclass on both sides, the team gave him a brilliant car and he drove the car wonderfully in both qualifying and the races resulting in a dominant championship winning campaign.

2012 - This year has been challenging but despite the ups and downs Vettel has kept at it and his grit and determination along with the team coming on strong has led to them leading by 6 points with 4 races remaining, luck? Not a chance.

As for the Hamilton comments I agree with what others have said in this thread, Lewis may be starting to see that by the time he gets a chance to get his 2nd WDC, Vettel could possibly have 4 or indeed 5 WDC along with numerous more records.

That hurts him a whole lot I think.

#305 tifosiMac

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 20:21

Well, who knows whether he would have done the same. You cannot simply assume that Vettels achievements can be easily duplicated. I doubt it to be honest, but at the very least it is not a fact.

I'm confident in Hamilton's ability so I don't need any convincing on that. :)

#306 Ural

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 21:01

He is worthy WDC in 2012 by a mile! Intelligent, fast as hell, amazing and most convincing! Hamilton would have been probably as good without technical issues! Then Räikkönen, Alonso, Webber and Button not in special order!

#307 DarthWillie

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 21:58

Vettel is leading because of the points he gathered when the Red Bull wasn't the best car. He has two dnf's, the same as Alonso, Somers he is a worthy champion if he wins it. Today we saw again the Ferrari is not a bad car so it isn't as if Alonso drives a HRT

#308 Edgar0001

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 21:58

I think Vettel is very good but he can't be compared with the "greats" just because he mostly wins only from the front and with the best machinery. Good for him.

I was lucky enough to witness the Senna and Prost championships. They had unbelievable fights when both had the same machinery. If either Senna or Prost had had a "Webber" as a teammate they would have won many championships more. Prost fought to the end against Senna in a lesser Ferrari. Senna was fighting Schumacher in a lesser Williams. Schumacher won his championships in two different teams. He built Ferrari and brought it back from a dismal form.
Vettel still has to do something like that to be considered a "great" in my opinion.

Again, he has done the best with his circumstances and that is admirable.


#309 mnmracer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:21

I think Vettel is very good but he can't be compared with the "greats" just because he mostly wins only from the front and with the best machinery. Good for him.

I was lucky enough to witness the Senna and Prost championships. They had unbelievable fights when both had the same machinery. If either Senna or Prost had had a "Webber" as a teammate they would have won many championships more. Prost fought to the end against Senna in a lesser Ferrari. Senna was fighting Schumacher in a lesser Williams. Schumacher won his championships in two different teams. He built Ferrari and brought it back from a dismal form.
Vettel still has to do something like that to be considered a "great" in my opinion.

Again, he has done the best with his circumstances and that is admirable.

The human mind can be a funny thing sometimes.
I will believe you when you say you've seen Senna and Prost go against each other, but what you remember is so painfully wrong, it's sad how it clouds your judgement.

You fault Vettel for mostly winning only from the front with the best machinery.
Yet you praise Senna, who has won 95% of his races from the front of the grid.
Yet you praise Senna and Prost, whose McLarens in 1988 and 1989 won 25 out of 32 races.
Senna's McLarens won 39 out of 48 races in 4 years.
No doubt you also think of Fangio as a great, despite him never winning from any other position than front row and changing cars mid-season and sometimes mid-race to always have the best.

Why is it sad? Because you're discrediting a driver, his achievements and the joy you can get out of seeing someone doing a great job, based on false facts. If you do not consider Vettel a great because most of his wins come from the front with the best cars, than Senna, Prost and Fangio, among many many others, don't deserve the label of great either.

#310 Edgar0001

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:37

The human mind can be a funny thing sometimes.
I will believe you when you say you've seen Senna and Prost go against each other, but what you remember is so painfully wrong, it's sad how it clouds your judgement.

You fault Vettel for mostly winning only from the front with the best machinery.
Yet you praise Senna, who has won 95% of his races from the front of the grid.
Yet you praise Senna and Prost, whose McLarens in 1988 and 1989 won 25 out of 32 races.
Senna's McLarens won 39 out of 48 races in 4 years.
No doubt you also think of Fangio as a great, despite him never winning from any other position than front row and changing cars mid-season and sometimes mid-race to always have the best.

Why is it sad? Because you're discrediting a driver, his achievements and the joy you can get out of seeing someone doing a great job, based on false facts. If you do not consider Vettel a great because most of his wins come from the front with the best cars, than Senna, Prost and Fangio, among many many others, don't deserve the label of great either.



McLaren won most races in those years because it was Prost and Senna driving them. When Senna won, Prost was second; when Prost won, Senna was second. Prost was also teammate with Lauda and Mansell and he beat them both. I was not lucky to see Fangio so I can't comment on that.

I understand that you are a Vettel fan. I am not saying he is at fault. Good for him that he has the best machinery and is doing the best from it. However, my opinion stands. He still hasn't prove that he belongs with the "greats".


#311 Mandzipop

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:50

McLaren won most races in those years because it was Prost and Senna driving them. When Senna won, Prost was second; when Prost won, Senna was second. Prost was also teammate with Lauda and Mansell and he beat them both. I was not lucky to see Fangio so I can't comment on that.

I understand that you are a Vettel fan. I am not saying he is at fault. Good for him that he has the best machinery and is doing the best from it. However, my opinion stands. He still hasn't prove that he belongs with the "greats".


How can you be certain that the only reason that those races were won because it was Senna and Prost driving them? Did the car have no influence?

Likewise you could argue that how can you be certain that all of the races Seb has won was because of the car and not because Seb was driving it?

#312 engel

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 22:51

McLaren won most races in those years because it was Prost and Senna driving them. When Senna won, Prost was second; when Prost won, Senna was second. Prost was also teammate with Lauda and Mansell and he beat them both. I was not lucky to see Fangio so I can't comment on that.

I understand that you are a Vettel fan. I am not saying he is at fault. Good for him that he has the best machinery and is doing the best from it. However, my opinion stands. He still hasn't prove that he belongs with the "greats".



don't be ridiculous, in 88 it was commonplace for the McLarens to be a full minute ahead of the 3rd placed guy. If memory serves on a couple of occasions they went as far as lapping the third placed guy, the car was one of the most dominant cars in F1 history, along with Mansell's Williams and Schumi's F2002 & F2004

#313 Edgar0001

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:09

don't be ridiculous, in 88 it was commonplace for the McLarens to be a full minute ahead of the 3rd placed guy. If memory serves on a couple of occasions they went as far as lapping the third placed guy, the car was one of the most dominant cars in F1 history, along with Mansell's Williams and Schumi's F2002 & F2004



Of course the car has influence and the McLaren was an excellent car back then. My argument is that Senna and Prost fought with the same equipment. That's why the McLarens won so many races. If either one of them had a "regular" teammate they would have accumulated more championships than they did.

I knew some Vettel fans would be upset and I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
But that is my point of view based on 40 years of watching F1.

I am not saying that Vettel is not great. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. What I am saying is that he has not prove it yet.


#314 ali_M

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:27

Of course the car has influence and the McLaren was an excellent car back then. My argument is that Senna and Prost fought with the same equipment. That's why the McLarens won so many races. If either one of them had a "regular" teammate they would have accumulated more championships than they did.

I knew some Vettel fans would be upset and I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
But that is my point of view based on 40 years of watching F1.

I am not saying that Vettel is not great. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. What I am saying is that he has not prove it yet.


I'd wager that he'd likely not prove it to you. He's done a lot and yet this is your opinion. He's winning championships while the supposedly greater drivers are in two top teams, i.e., McLaren and Ferrari. One of those two top drivers enjoys No.1 status in his team as well. The excuses will come as well.

In the Senna/Prost era, these two phenomena's made the McLaren seem dominant. However, Seb drives a dominant car from the front. An incredible way of looking at things despite all that has happened.


#315 Mandzipop

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:34

Of course the car has influence and the McLaren was an excellent car back then. My argument is that Senna and Prost fought with the same equipment. That's why the McLarens won so many races. If either one of them had a "regular" teammate they would have accumulated more championships than they did.

I knew some Vettel fans would be upset and I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
But that is my point of view based on 40 years of watching F1.

I am not saying that Vettel is not great. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. What I am saying is that he has not prove it yet.


What is a regular teammate?

Someone that has not won a WDC?

If a car is winning by that type of margin then it is truly dominant.

If you look at the greats and goods in history, you will find that Seb is following a similar pattern. That also includes the dominance of the car. That applies to all of the greats.

However this is not the Senna/Prost thread.

#316 engel

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 23:49

Of course the car has influence and the McLaren was an excellent car back then. My argument is that Senna and Prost fought with the same equipment. That's why the McLarens won so many races. If either one of them had a "regular" teammate they would have accumulated more championships than they did.

I knew some Vettel fans would be upset and I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
But that is my point of view based on 40 years of watching F1.

I am not saying that Vettel is not great. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. What I am saying is that he has not prove it yet.


Quit with the patronizing "you 're a Vettel fan I don't mean to hurt you" bs please. Mostly cause you 're directing it at the wrong person.

Secondly, Senna would be a worse driver if he just blitzed 88, 89 and 90 cause Prost had retired in 87? Or Prost would be a worse driver if he blitzed 88, 89 and 90 cause Senna decided to stay in Brazil and raise rug rats? No. The quality of a driver is an absolute, not a comparison to somebody else. And I will repeat something I said before, by your logic Schumi and Hakkinen are mediocre cause they never had fast teammates. Who were JYS' teammates in his championship seasons? Cevert and his beother in law Beltoise. Great guys, and Cevert died tragically after JYS won his third championship but do you know what JYS had said of him? He's a very obedient teammate.



#317 Edgar0001

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 00:27

I'd wager that he'd likely not prove it to you. He's done a lot and yet this is your opinion. He's winning championships while the supposedly greater drivers are in two top teams, i.e., McLaren and Ferrari. One of those two top drivers enjoys No.1 status in his team as well. The excuses will come as well.

In the Senna/Prost era, these two phenomena's made the McLaren seem dominant. However, Seb drives a dominant car from the front. An incredible way of looking at things despite all that has happened.



He'll prove it to me when he shows what he can do in a car that is not so far ahead of everybody else's...


#318 lbennie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:04

he's already one of the all time greats.

given his age, i wouldnt be suprised if he ends up as the GOAT before he retires.

i don't get where the op is coming from. schumi, senna, prost, clarke all drove dominant cars throughout their careers...

He'll prove it to me when he shows what he can do in a car that is not so far ahead of everybody else's...


Have you been watching this season?

Edited by lbennie, 15 October 2012 - 01:06.


#319 Edgar0001

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:34

he's already one of the all time greats.

given his age, i wouldnt be suprised if he ends up as the GOAT before he retires.

i don't get where the op is coming from. schumi, senna, prost, clarke all drove dominant cars throughout their careers...



Have you been watching this season?


Exactly!!
He only wins from the front.

Anyway, That is my personal opinion and I don't expect everybody to agree with me.

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#320 lbennie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:26

welcome to formula 1.

you need the fastest car to win, most of the time.

the days of a driver transcending his car are long gone. the sport is much, much more professional these days. margins are much finer. if a driver has an off day these days, hes usually down a few tenths, not a second or so like it was 10+ years ago.

Just look at hamilton, one of the fastest drivers to have ever lived imo, yet he's been seemingly powerless to have an effect on the WDC with a car that is more often than not within half a second of the lead.

Edited by lbennie, 15 October 2012 - 02:35.


#321 ch103

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:30

I genuinely root against Vettel in every single race. For whatever reason, I wasn't a fan of him when he drove for STR and I am not a fan of the RD Young Driver Program. Having said there, there is zero point arguing against his talent. The guy can flat out fly on the race track.

I rate Alonso as the best driver ahead of Hamilton and both are above Seb merely because he was given "#1 Driver" status without doing much besides winning at Monza. And there is zero question about the gap between RB's #1 and #2. Its not even close.

But in the end, WDC's are not handed out, they are earned and he has earned each one. As much as some dislike it. For whatever reason, I am of the opinion that a driver should earn their way to top teams and a #1 status within a top team. Its Red Bulls money and they are free to do whatever they please with it, but the whole young driver thing just doesn't sit well with me.





#322 smoothcrim

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:31

Vettel is a better allround driver than Alonso and Hamilton,the last 3 years prove that.

He puts it all together beautifully.



#323 Nobody

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:42

Vettel is a better allround driver than Alonso and Hamilton,the last 3 years prove that.

He puts it all together beautifully.


and in a better all round car no doubt

#324 Meanbeakin

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:44

Yes he deserves it. 2009 and 2010 he was still rough around the edges and I could understand people thinking he wasn't one of the best, but the last 2 years he's been supreme in every way.

Yes he has the best car but as history has proven, that's where most world championships are won from.

#325 lbennie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:49

and in a better all round car no doubt


yes, kind of like your avatar :cool:

#326 mnmracer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:29

I genuinely root against Vettel in every single race. For whatever reason, I wasn't a fan of him when he drove for STR and I am not a fan of the RD Young Driver Program. Having said there, there is zero point arguing against his talent. The guy can flat out fly on the race track.

I rate Alonso as the best driver ahead of Hamilton and both are above Seb merely because he was given "#1 Driver" status without doing much besides winning at Monza. And there is zero question about the gap between RB's #1 and #2. Its not even close.

But in the end, WDC's are not handed out, they are earned and he has earned each one. As much as some dislike it. For whatever reason, I am of the opinion that a driver should earn their way to top teams and a #1 status within a top team. Its Red Bulls money and they are free to do whatever they please with it, but the whole young driver thing just doesn't sit well with me.

So what has Alonso done to earn #1 status in Renault before he started yelling on the radio Trulli wasn't letting him pass and consequently 'sent off'?

#327 seahawk

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:33

Hamilton is naive. And this is his only problem.

He beat Alonso in his rookie year , he should be able to walk over Alonso if they were teammates today.


Maybe Hamilton is not naive and has gained an new understanding of things that happen inside McLaren, if the driver falls out of favour with the team.


#328 apoka

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:42

He'll prove it to me when he shows what he can do in a car that is not so far ahead of everybody else's...

After Singapore, McLaren was considered to be the fastest car over the season by many. Now, after two races, RB is not just considered the best car of the season by you, but it is "so far ahead that of anyone else". :lol:

Then you go on and compare it with a period in which there was a bigger margin between the different cars. Because of the regulations and other reasons, the field is more even than in previous decades.

The irony is that Vettel is leading the WDC, because he did what you need as proof: Collect many points when he has not had the best car.

Btw. he is leading by only 6 points, so anything can still happen.


#329 apoka

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:48

For whatever reason, I am of the opinion that a driver should earn their way to top teams and a #1 status within a top team. Its Red Bulls money and they are free to do whatever they please with it, but the whole young driver thing just doesn't sit well with me.

I think the RB young driver program is not a walk in the park either. If you fail to impress, you are replaced by the next guy waiting in the queue (and he didn't have the money or sponsors to compensate a lack of talent/results so that was a danger in his early days).


#330 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:03

He absolutely deserves it.

Webber's no slouch, nor are people like Hamilton or Alonso.

#331 bl-f1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:06

The drivers' championship is separate from the constructor's championship for a good reason. If you have the best car you do not necessarily go and win the championship. We have seen this again and again, as much as some fanboys here wish to think that "the other driver" (please fill in the quotes with your most hated driver's name) can only win championships with the best car.

In my opinion the Red Bull has been the dominant car during the second part of the championship, but you only need to look at Webber's performance to see that it is not all that easy to bring the best car home in the first position consistently.

I think anyone who wins the most points will have deserved the championship. I prefer that Alonso clinches it because I have been rooting for the guy since his Minardi days and he has produced this year some epic drives. The championship is not over by any stretch of the imagination. There are still four races to go and I think this year it will likely go down to the wire. Anyone who wins it will have thoroughly deserved it.

Edited by bl-f1, 15 October 2012 - 06:07.


#332 Talisker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:20

There is a way to confirm if he is or not. Get Vettel and a bunch of other drivers to compete in a series of races and award points to each driver depending where they finish in each race. If Vettel gets the most points in three seasons then it would confirm he was a worthy 3 times WDC.

#333 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:37

and in a better all round car no doubt

Exactly.

#334 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:49

Exactly.


Mclaren is the best car. Stop making excuses.

Even if the Red Bull is a great car right now it has not been dominant at all. That was everyones problem with Vettel, whether he was any good without a dominant car. This year he has proved he has no weaknesses, and he hasnt had the best car this year and is leading the WDC.

Just look back to spa and Monza. Red bull car was nowhere and Vettel picked up crucial points by racing like a true champion.



#335 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:37

Mclaren is the best car. Stop making excuses.

Even if the Red Bull is a great car right now it has not been dominant at all. That was everyones problem with Vettel, whether he was any good without a dominant car. This year he has proved he has no weaknesses, and he hasnt had the best car this year and is leading the WDC.

Just look back to spa and Monza. Red bull car was nowhere and Vettel picked up crucial points by racing like a true champion.

+1

#336 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:42

There is a way to confirm if he is or not. Get Vettel and a bunch of other drivers to compete in a series of races and award points to each driver depending where they finish in each race. If Vettel gets the most points in three seasons then it would confirm he was a worthy 3 times WDC.

Another way to ponder question posed in the OP, namely, why bother at all? When it comes to Vettel, there will be always new criteria and tests for him to go through by his detractors, and none for the other drivers. It is that way this year, it was that way last year, and before that; nothing seems to change, regardless of his results.

#337 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:45

Mclaren is the best car. Stop making excuses.

Even if the Red Bull is a great car right now it has not been dominant at all. That was everyones problem with Vettel, whether he was any good without a dominant car. This year he has proved he has no weaknesses, and he hasnt had the best car this year and is leading the WDC.

Just look back to spa and Monza. Red bull car was nowhere and Vettel picked up crucial points by racing like a true champion.

I'm not making excuses I'm just being realistic without the use of rose tinted glasses. The McLaren has been the best car at periods this season, but no other team has seen the performnace yo yo McLaren has. Red Bull has been consistent all year with its performance and has slowly crept forward. The McLaren is no longer the best car and the last 3 races have shown both drivers have struggled with setup. The other advantage Red Bull has is the fact they rarely make mistakes in pit stops and with strategy. They are a tighter unit and possibly the best team on the grid with exception to Ferrari in this area. McLaren have been appalling this year and thrown away so many valuable points its unreal. On Friday morning the McLaren was the fastest car in practice one. By the afternoon they had completely messed the set up of the cars up and once again the drivers were struggling with pace. Hardly the best team on the grid and thats without discussing the unreliability they have had of late. They are not excuses, they are cold hard facts.

#338 EVO2

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:48

I would not have said this before the 2012 season, in fact I would have probably said something closer to the opposite, but of all the drivers on the grid, Alonso is the one above all others this year who deserves a third championship.

As a McLaren supporter, it grieves me to see Alonso drive a clearly inferior car so flawlessly and extract results that greatly flatter the team's performance. It's been a revelation to watch. Fortunately because Massa performed so poorly earlier in the season there has been a level playing field and Alonso has been unable to benefit from his No 1 status.

Lewis above any other driver, except Michael Schumacher at his peak, is the driver capable of driving round any car problem and he is probably the fastest of all in a race but he doesn't have the maturity of Alonso and he makes a few mistakes. He's out of the contest now but through the no fault of his own. Both McLaren drivers have had the fastest car through the first 3/4 of the season but there have been too many car failures or they've been punted off by others too often.

Vettel is close behind Alonso and Hamilton : supreme on a single lap, no other driver does so well in qualifying while frequently driving only single laps in each session. But, like Jenson, if the car isn't perfect, or doesn't quite suit the driver or the track, he sometimes fails to get the results as we have seen in earlier races this year. Seb can extract 100% from the car where Alonso and Lewis seem to be able to get 110% from their's.

It seems that now the Red Bull is working perfectly for him, only his teammate can keep up ! Unlike Alonso, Seb also makes the odd mistake.

Genuine enthusiasts would not begrudge any one of these three another championship this year but I believe that Alonso is the most deserving.

Edited by EVO2, 15 October 2012 - 08:53.


#339 engel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:50

I'm not making excuses I'm just being realistic without the use of rose tinted glasses. The McLaren has been the best car at periods this season, but no other team has seen the performnace yo yo McLaren has. Red Bull has been consistent all year with its performance and has slowly crept forward. The McLaren is no longer the best car and the last 3 races have shown both drivers have struggled with setup. The other advantage Red Bull has is the fact they rarely make mistakes in pit stops and with strategy. They are a tighter unit and possibly the best team on the grid with exception to Ferrari in this area. McLaren have been appalling this year and thrown away so many valuable points its unreal. On Friday morning the McLaren was the fastest car in practice one. By the afternoon they had completely messed the set up of the cars up and once again the drivers were struggling with pace. Hardly the best team on the grid and thats without discussing the unreliability they have had of late. They are not excuses, they are cold hard facts.



The fact McLaren failed to capitalize on their advantage when they had it (and they had it both at the start of the season and through the summer up to and including Singapore) doesn't make Alonso and Vettel bad drivers and Red Bull and Ferrari dominant cars, you understand that, right?


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#340 seahawk

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:54

When Vettel struggles with the set-up it is his fault, if Hamilton struggles with the set-up it the team / cars fault. Interesting line of thought.

#341 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:58

The fact McLaren failed to capitalize on their advantage when they had it (and they had it both at the start of the season and through the summer up to and including Singapore) doesn't make Alonso and Vettel bad drivers and Red Bull and Ferrari dominant cars, you understand that, right?

I didn't say it did. I was the one pointing out how McLaren are the ones doing the worst job by letting both drivers down. I think the main hint here for many is to project Vettel as the best driver because he is winning and to suggest he is better than his rivals. None of his rivals have had the support Vettel has had and the one of the reasons Vettel is leading this WDC right now, is because Red Bull haven't made the mistakes others have. Alonso and Hamilton are driving equally as good this year and are both worthy champions based on their performances. F1 is a team effort and Vettel is getting the job done because he has the best team around him. Hamilton and Alonso aren't bad drivers because their cars are off the pace or because their teams are making blunders. You understand that, right?

#342 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:59

When Vettel struggles with the set-up it is his fault, if Hamilton struggles with the set-up it the team / cars fault. Interesting line of thought.

Is that really what you think?

#343 apoka

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:09

Vettel is close behind Alonso and Hamilton : supreme on a single lap, no other driver does so well in qualifying while frequently driving only single laps in each session. But, like Jenson, if the car isn't perfect, or doesn't quite suit the driver or the track, he sometimes fails to get the results as we have seen in earlier races this year. Seb can extract 100% from the car where Alonso and Lewis seem to be able to get 110% from their's.

This year, he was not as superior in qualy as in 2011 (yet still very good), but in the races Vettel was superb and always got very close to what could be achieved given the car. So, I don't know where the "110%" thing comes from.

I agree, however, that all three would deserve the WDC this year.


#344 seahawk

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:10

Is that really what you think?


Well this is how the forum works. Remember when Vettel was struggling early this year, the majority opinion was that he gained from the blown diffusor and shouzld adjust to the new rules. Whenever Hamilton fails to get the car to work, the usal response is, that the team failed to provide him with a working set-up. Even as a Hmailton fan, this feels obvious to me, that Vettel is treated harsher.

#345 engel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:12

I didn't say it did. I was the one pointing out how McLaren are the ones doing the worst job by letting both drivers down. I think the main hint here for many is to project Vettel as the best driver because he is winning and to suggest he is better than his rivals. None of his rivals have had the support Vettel has had and the one of the reasons Vettel is leading this WDC right now, is because Red Bull haven't made the mistakes others have. Alonso and Hamilton are driving equally as good this year and are both worthy champions based on their performances. F1 is a team effort and Vettel is getting the job done because he has the best team around him. Hamilton and Alonso aren't bad drivers because their cars are off the pace or because their teams are making blunders. You understand that, right?


Alonso has probably flattered his car, aided by some luck (in Valencia). But in Malaysia in the rain he was driving the fastest car. Same applies to Germany, he wasn't driving a fiat cinquecento against aventadors, the Ferrari was the fastest car that day. Hamilton has in no way outperformed his car. Sure he drove a great race in Korea with a damaged car, but over the season, he's won when his car was dominant (Canada, Hungary and Monza) and had bad luck on a couple of occasions when he had the car to win but didn't (Singapore - Spa - Spain) and on some occasions he was rightly cautious and settled for points.

#346 noikeee

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:14

I think this is just about a legitimate question but ultimately doesn't matter. Nelson Piquet is a 3x champion, Nigel Mansell only won it once, yet when they were team-mates they were matched. Stirling Moss was clearly the 2nd best driver of his generation (possibly the very best once Fangio was retired) and never won it - whereas Jenson Button is only right about the 4th or 5th best driver of this generation and has got it. The point I'm making is you do need to be a beast of a driver to become champion, but the number of championships isn't 100% directly proportional to driver ability, it isn't entirely fair on that basis.

I would tend to agree with the majority that Hamilton and specially Alonso have been slightly more convincing than Vettel this season. However this still doesn't mean Vettel isn't worthy of the 3 championships. Remember last year few people would argue he wasn't the best driver on the grid, certainly had a better season than Lewis. This at a very young age. He's the youngest ever points scorer, race winner, champion, double champion. Rocketship or not these things are not within the grasp of normal drivers. You need to be pretty special.

The major reason people raise this question is because he got into a top car quickly, and hasn't yet been paired with a proven top driver as a team-mate (altho Webber is more than just decent). That is, however, not his fault. Time will eventually clear those doubts over him. For now, I see no reason to consider him unworthy, as he's clearly within the grid's top 3, within reasonable doubt of being considered the best, and has been at this level for quite a few years already.

#347 black magic

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:15

I'll stick my neck out.

My opiion of Vettel has receeded somewhat based on his 2012 season. I have not forgotten his from at various stages of the year when frankly he looked decidely average and in comparison to Webber. particularly those first few races. Alonso has impressed me more for my percepion is that the ferrari has been slower than both the mclaren and now the red bull and yet Alonso has been there or there abouts most of the season.

That and I cant stomach Horner fornicating all over the guy. Webber takes pole - no comment, Seb boy wins and that insincere "... well done Seb, fantastic ..."

No question he is quick. No question given a quick car he is as quick as anyone over a single lap, and if allowed to drive unchallenged then no question he will drive away.

Does he "deserve" 3 championships to Alonso 2 - no. But he does probably deserve more than Hamilton - yes.

#348 David1976

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:16

Vettel deserves the three titles as he has driven the best car on the grid extremely well over the course of the championships. IN the last few seasons, and the second half of this one, the Red Bull has had a lot more downforce than the other top cars on the grid. It looks planted and only seems limited by the tyres.

Is he the best driver on the grid? Not by a long shot if you ask me. He is behind Fernando, Lewis, and possibly others here.

Edited by David1976, 15 October 2012 - 09:18.


#349 swerved

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:24

Mclaren is the best car. Stop making excuses.

Even if the Red Bull is a great car right now it has not been dominant at all. That was everyones problem with Vettel, whether he was any good without a dominant car. This year he has proved he has no weaknesses, and he hasnt had the best car this year and is leading the WDC.

Just look back to spa and Monza. Red bull car was nowhere and Vettel picked up crucial points by racing like a true champion.



:up: Nothing to add.

#350 karlth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:24

but over the season, he's won when his car was dominant (Canada, Hungary and Monza) ...


It is quite a stretch to say that the McLaren was the fastest car in Canada and Hungary. Probably in Monza though.