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Is Vettel worthy of the 3 WDC Title?


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#351 Taxi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:25

I think everyone is writing off Fernando Alonso of this championship quite wrongly. He's just a few points behind and has an excellent car and team behind him. So if he's as good as everyone sais he will battle Vettel until the end and i personaly think Fernando might as well make it.

As for Vettel, we can underrating him as much as we like, but he's clearly amazing as his stats confirm and also his recovery this year confirm. He had in many occasions 3 rd or 4 rd fastest car, jut as Alonso.

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#352 engel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:28

It is quite a stretch to say that the McLaren was the fastest car in Canada and Hungary. Probably in Monza though.


Why cause Lewis said the Lotus is fast? cmon ...

#353 H2H

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:29

Alonso has probably flattered his car, aided by some luck (in Valencia). But in Malaysia in the rain he was driving the fastest car. Same applies to Germany, he wasn't driving a fiat cinquecento against aventadors, the Ferrari was the fastest car that day. Hamilton has in no way outperformed his car. Sure he drove a great race in Korea with a damaged car, but over the season, he's won when his car was dominant (Canada, Hungary and Monza) and had bad luck on a couple of occasions when he had the car to win but didn't (Singapore - Spa - Spain) and on some occasions he was rightly cautious and settled for points.


I think it sums it up well. It is rather funny how the perception of the season changes according to ones need and the current rankings in points.



#354 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:29

I didn't say it did. I was the one pointing out how McLaren are the ones doing the worst job by letting both drivers down. I think the main hint here for many is to project Vettel as the best driver because he is winning and to suggest he is better than his rivals. None of his rivals have had the support Vettel has had and the one of the reasons Vettel is leading this WDC right now, is because Red Bull haven't made the mistakes others have. Alonso and Hamilton are driving equally as good this year and are both worthy champions based on their performances. F1 is a team effort and Vettel is getting the job done because he has the best team around him. Hamilton and Alonso aren't bad drivers because their cars are off the pace or because their teams are making blunders. You understand that, right?

Yeah... poor Alonso fighting against everyone at Ferrari ):

#355 Torsion

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:38

I am not huge Vettel supporter, but if he achieves a third title, he absolutely deserves it.

About having the best car, it has been competitive, but it hasn't really been dominant for most part of this year. If you consider last year, it was the best car in Vettel's hands, not so much in Webber's. F1 is all about the whole package which includes the driver, car and the team.

He might not yet be considered the best driver on the grid because he is so young, and possibly less experienced than Fernando. However if you consider on-track achievements, he is certainly right at the top. At his age Vettel has achieved significantly more than Alonso and Lewis had.

Personally, I think if we put Vettel, Alonso, and Lewis in the same car, all three would be very close, but Vettel would probably win at the end of the season. Lewis is very strong racer in my view, but I feel he is weaker than Vettel and Alonso from a mind management point of view - i.e. small things can disturb him. Between Vettel and Alonso, I think Vettel has got more raw pace than Alonso, possibly because he is much younger. Raw pace would have been similar I think if they were both at the same age (i.e. when Alonso was young).


Edited by Torsion, 15 October 2012 - 09:51.


#356 Gareth

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:42

In answer to the thread question: yes.

Anyone who wins the WDC this year deserves whatever number of titles they land on. To win this year's WDC, a driver will have to have put in an excellent performance season long.



#357 Alarcon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:48

Vettel deserves the three titles as he has driven the best car on the grid extremely well over the course of the championships. IN the last few seasons, and the second half of this one, the Red Bull has had a lot more downforce than the other top cars on the grid. It looks planted and only seems limited by the tyres.

Is he the best driver on the grid? Not by a long shot if you ask me. He is behind Fernando, Lewis, and possibly others here.



This season has been a lot of "best car". McLaren has been the fastest of all them, because they were fast in every track, while Rb not. I never seen McLaren losing 6 tenths against Massa and 1 second against the poleman, as I´ve seen the RB at Monza.

Then on the most equal and difficult WDC ever in F1 history, with 7 different winnners, with 6 WDC on the track...Vettel is on the lead. And whoever will win will be always remembered on the books of time like one of the best if not the best WDC ever.

And that won´t be something you could discuss, but just a fact. If Alonso/Seb/Lewis/Kimi finally wins this title, will be this way.

#358 Alarcon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:56

It is quite a stretch to say that the McLaren was the fastest car in Canada and Hungary. Probably in Monza though.



Lewis has a dominant car at:

Australia, Malaysia, Monza, Spain, Hockenheim (very close with Ferrari) and Singapore.

Imo Lotus was faster than McLaren at Hungary and in Canadá Ferrari was slightly faster but Lewis did much better with his tyres and a brilliant drive, same as Hungary (casually two tracks he likes).

Overall McLaren has been faster just on Q3 (even if now Rb seems to have the upper hand), but on races imo RB and sometimes Ferrari and Lotus has been superior (where the points are). Then that´s why this season it´s recog. as the most difficult and equal season of F1 ever.

Lewis had bad luck, Seb had bad luck and Alonso had bad luck. And Vettel had some problems struggling with the car on the early races (and some "haters" asked about the exhaust, tha mapping and those kind of stupid things... where are they? :lol: ), he has been penalised at Germany losing 10 points, he has some issues at Valencia and Monza... but now he´s on the lead.

Edited by Alarcon, 15 October 2012 - 09:56.


#359 Lights

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:20

McLaren has been the fastest of all them, because they were fast in every track, while Rb not. I never seen McLaren losing 6 tenths against Massa and 1 second against the poleman, as I´ve seen the RB at Monza.

http://www.formula1....eason/2012/872/

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#360 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:36

Vettel and Alonso have been the standout drivers this year, and i think they both deserve it. In Fact id rather see Fernando win it.

But i cant agree with people saying Hamilton deserves it this year. He hasnt been on the same level as these two this year. Just no

#361 joshb

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:55

Mclaren is the best car. Stop making excuses.

Even if the Red Bull is a great car right now it has not been dominant at all. That was everyones problem with Vettel, whether he was any good without a dominant car. This year he has proved he has no weaknesses, and he hasnt had the best car this year and is leading the WDC.

Just look back to spa and Monza. Red bull car was nowhere and Vettel picked up crucial points by racing like a true champion.


He non scored at Monza but yeah, his performance was excellent. A car that was borderline Q2/Q3 on a track with lots of straights- harder for driver talent to show than normal. Qualified 6th, had it running 4th for a while until he got very firm in defending that position. Would probably have taken at least 5th and maybe 4th as Massas tyres ran out near the end. Very good race.

To say no weaknesses is pushing it but he's ironed out a lot of areas where he was less strong

#362 The Kanisteri

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:57

Of course Sebastian deserves it.

#363 joshb

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:59

Of course Sebastian deserves it.


Cue a thread, does Alonso deserve to be a 3x WDC???
Don't see that coming though...

#364 The Kanisteri

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:07

Cue a thread, does Alonso deserve to be a 3x WDC???
Don't see that coming though...


No. Driver who makes contract team mate crashing for him and getting away from it like Mafia Don doesn't deserve a sincle F1 championship.

#365 Maustinsj

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:09

No. Driver who makes contract team mate crashing for him and getting away from it like Mafia Don doesn't deserve a sincle F1 championship.


That's why he's a DOUBLE champion! ;)

#366 The Kanisteri

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:16

Heh, true. But I kind of would like Lance Amstrong kind of sentence revoking his champions...

#367 Alarcon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:45

This year, he was not as superior in qualy as in 2011 (yet still very good), but in the races Vettel was superb and always got very close to what could be achieved given the car. So, I don't know where the "110%" thing comes from.

I agree, however, that all three would deserve the WDC this year.



Despite some problems struggling with the car (he even tested differente cofig.) until now Seb has been the best qualifier this season too (as he was in 2009, 2010, 2011) with Lewis Hamilton equal. 4,6 vs 4,8 or so.

Imo both are amazing over one lap, sheer speed. However imo Seb is more able to do this perfect lap more frequently than Lewis. But we need both on the same car.

And on race, imo Lewis is more able to race/fight between the midfield fighting and taking the 110% of the car. Seb depends on his one lap talent more than Lewis.

In fact, excluding DNF because issues of the car, Seb just lost 12 races from 34 pole positions. Lewis on the same circumpstances lost 11 races over 24 pole positions. And Lewis won 45% races without starting from the pole while Seb won 28%.

Edited by Alarcon, 15 October 2012 - 16:01.


#368 Alarcon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 16:06

Vettel and Alonso have been the standout drivers this year, and i think they both deserve it. In Fact id rather see Fernando win it.

But i cant agree with people saying Hamilton deserves it this year. He hasnt been on the same level as these two this year. Just no



Well, I can understand your point. But I would say "the team" hasn´t been on the same level. Lewis has been superb as Seb or Alonso. Imo.

#369 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:36

Secondly, Senna would be a worse driver if he just blitzed 88, 89 and 90 cause Prost had retired in 87? Or Prost would be a worse driver if he blitzed 88, 89 and 90 cause Senna decided to stay in Brazil and raise rug rats? No. The quality of a driver is an absolute, not a comparison to somebody else. And I will repeat something I said before, by your logic Schumi and Hakkinen are mediocre cause they never had fast teammates. Who were JYS' teammates in his championship seasons? Cevert and his beother in law Beltoise. Great guys, and Cevert died tragically after JYS won his third championship but do you know what JYS had said of him? He's a very obedient teammate.



I think you were missing his point. If Senna or Prost's team mate in 88/89 was Mark Webber, they would have won more races and more titles. Its as simple as that. Driver quality does not change, but perception and results do change depending on team mates, and if a driver has a stronger team mate he does not look as impressive as he does with a weaker one, which leads to people judging them differently, like Massa once Alonso joined for example. Schumacher proved himself in inferior machinery in the 90s. Mika though did not which is why he is just like Vettel.

Both of them won multiple titles in dominant cars with average number 2 team mates, which is why Vettel does not deserve 3 titles because its not an accurate reflection of his status. He has been spoilt like no other driver in modern history. An entire career driving Newey cars, boy it does not get any better than that especially if your team mate is a 36 year old journeyman with number 2 status. He is really the only guy he has to beat.

All the true great drivers have proved themselves, either against great team mates or in inferior cars, and Vettel has does neither! And until he does he will be viewed as overrated. Its actually history repeating itself because in the 90s Michael went 5 years without winning the DWC, and despite Mika winning 2 in a row, Michael was still universally regarded as the best in the sport. Same thing is happening now even if Vettel wins 3, the smart pundits will know Vettel has had it easy and never been tested.

And make no mistake this year if you take into account team operations the Redbull has been easily the best seat to have. Mclaren has been as fast overall but terrible operations.

#370 apoka

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:53

All the true great drivers have proved themselves, either against great team mates or in inferior cars, and Vettel has does neither! And until he does he will be viewed as overrated. Its actually history repeating itself because in the 90s Michael went 5 years without winning the DWC, and despite Mika winning 2 in a row, Michael was still universally regarded as the best in the sport. Same thing is happening now even if Vettel wins 3, the smart pundits will know Vettel has had it easy and never been tested.

And make no mistake this year if you take into account team operations the Redbull has been easily the best seat to have. Mclaren has been as fast overall but terrible operations.

The Torro Rosso 2007/2008 was not the best car. The RB6 was fastest, but very unreliable (that season can by no means be described as "easy"), the RB7 was matched by McLaren in the second half of the season and 2012 has been very wild until recently with no clear best team.

If the Torro Rosso or the RB at some tracks this year hasn't been inferior enough to meet your "greatness because of inferior car" criteria, then I'm afraid, he'll always be a mediocre driver for you. At least, I haven't seen WDCs going back to HRT level teams and I hope Vettel won't be first in this regard.

Edited by apoka, 17 October 2012 - 05:54.


#371 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:57

The Torro Rosso 2007/2008 was not the best car. The RB6 was fastest, but very unreliable (that season can by no means be described as "easy"), the RB7 was matched by McLaren in the second half of the season and 2012 has been very wild until recently with no clear best team.

If the Torro Rosso or the RB at some tracks this year hasn't been inferior enough to meet your "greatness because of inferior car" criteria, then I'm afraid, he'll always be a mediocre driver for you. At least, I haven't seen WDCs going back to HRT level teams and I hope Vettel won't be first in this regard.


Hard to be sure if the TR was the best or not that weekend but it was damn good with 3 of the top 4 filled with that same chassis, and once again it was Newey car. Vettel has not won a race this year when the car was not dominant, so it continues the pattern which is why so many question him. That's not to say he is crap, he is clearly above average, but without being tested you cannot be sure how good a driver is. Its as simple as that. Pity Redbull kept Webber, instead of thinking of the future and putting someone more talented along side Vettel.

Seriously, what's so special about dominating with the fastest car? A long list of drivers in history have done that in Newey cars. Hill. Villeneuve, Hakkinen, and now Vettel.

Edited by sammyg, 17 October 2012 - 05:59.


#372 BackOnTop

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:59

Is Vettel worthy of 3 WDC Titles?? What a great question... it's so stupid on so many levels.

Why not ask "Is Sebastian Vettel a worthy Formula 1 driver." :rolleyes:

Edited by BackOnTop, 17 October 2012 - 06:04.


#373 Juggles

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:01

Despite some problems struggling with the car (he even tested differente cofig.) until now Seb has been the best qualifier this season too (as he was in 2009, 2010, 2011) with Lewis Hamilton equal. 4,6 vs 4,8 or so.

Imo both are amazing over one lap, sheer speed. However imo Seb is more able to do this perfect lap more frequently than Lewis. But we need both on the same car.

And on race, imo Lewis is more able to race/fight between the midfield fighting and taking the 110% of the car. Seb depends on his one lap talent more than Lewis.

In fact, excluding DNF because issues of the car, Seb just lost 12 races from 34 pole positions. Lewis on the same circumpstances lost 11 races over 24 pole positions. And Lewis won 45% races without starting from the pole while Seb won 28%.


Hamilton has qualified on pole six times and on the front row ten times overall. Vettel has four pole positions and six front row starts overall. Statistically they are far from equal this season. If you take into account their performances on Saturday compared to their respective teammates they also bear little comparison.

#374 apoka

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:38

Hard to be sure if the TR was the best or not that weekend but it was damn good with 3 of the top 4 filled with that same chassis, and once again it was Newey car.

I wasn't talking about a weekend, but his time at TR as a whole.

Vettel has not won a race this year when the car was not dominant

What about Bahrain and Singapore? In the latter case he also had luck.

Pity Redbull kept Webber, instead of thinking of the future and putting someone more talented along side Vettel.

I would have preferred to see a new talented driver there as well. But RB has access to all the data from the TR drivers, so I believe they just considered Webber to be better than the young prospects.

Seriously, what's so special about dominating with the fastest car? A long list of drivers in history have done that in Newey cars. Hill. Villeneuve, Hakkinen, and now Vettel.

It's always the package that is dominant - not just car or driver. And while Newey is great, he is no guarantee for WDCs.


#375 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:44

I wasn't talking about a weekend, but his time at TR as a whole.


What about Bahrain and Singapore? In the latter case he also had luck.


I would have preferred to see a new talented driver there as well. But RB has access to all the data from the TR drivers, so I believe they just considered Webber to be better than the young prospects.


It's always the package that is dominant - not just car or driver. And while Newey is great, he is no guarantee for WDCs.


Its a reflection of the quality of Vettels machinery over the years that in a race where he gets pole and leads every lap, its claimed he did not have the best car. The lotus was fast, but was flattered by the extra new tyres Kimi had. Vettel only did something amazing in the TR at Monza which as I said was questionable because it was not like his team mate was down in 10th place.

I agree the package is what counts but as you know in F1 the car is the largest element in the package unfortunately.

#376 Cesc

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:48

No, he´s not.
Time will remember the Red Bull era more than the Vettel era. Vettel only wins if he has the fastest car, and that has been the case for the last three years with significant difference.

#377 apoka

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:56

Its a reflection of the quality of Vettels machinery over the years that in a race where he gets pole and leads every lap, its claimed he did not have the best car.

I just said that the RB was not dominant in Bahrain ("dominant" is not the same as "best" - it may not have been the best car either, but it almost certainly wasn't dominant).


#378 DS27

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:00

In 20 or 30 years, people will remember he won 3+ championships; most won't even know what car those championships were in and Red Bull will probably have ceased to exist long ago - both as a drink and as an F1 team.



#379 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:05

In 20 or 30 years, people will remember he won 3+ championships; most won't even know what car those championships were in and Red Bull will probably have ceased to exist long ago - both as a drink and as an F1 team.


The real fans and smart pundits will though.

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#380 Zava

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:07

Hard to be sure if the TR was the best or not that weekend but it was damn good with 3 of the top 4 filled with that same chassis, and once again it was Newey car. Vettel has not won a race this year when the car was not dominant, so it continues the pattern which is why so many question him. That's not to say he is crap, he is clearly above average, but without being tested you cannot be sure how good a driver is. Its as simple as that. Pity Redbull kept Webber, instead of thinking of the future and putting someone more talented along side Vettel.

Seriously, what's so special about dominating with the fastest car? A long list of drivers in history have done that in Newey cars. Hill. Villeneuve, Hakkinen, and now Vettel.

then please elaborate which races did for example Hamilton win without a 'dominant' car.

#381 krea

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:09

The best car of the season was Mclaren. They were clearly the fastest car until Japan. It's not Vettel fault that Hamilton and Button wasted the potential of the car.

The real fans and smart pundits will though.


and they laugh about people like you, now.



#382 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:12

The best car of the season was Mclaren. They were clearly the fastest car until Japan. It's not Vettel fault that Hamilton and Button wasted the potential of the car.



and they laugh about people like you, now.


You are completely ignoring all the Mclaren team mistakes and failures, pitstops, reliability, which has cost Hamilton a massive number of points, so when you factor that in Redbull has been the best team.

#383 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:13

then please elaborate which races did for example Hamilton win without a 'dominant' car.


Hamilton won a title without the best car and, almost did it in 2007. He has proved himself without dominant machinery.

#384 Zava

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:14

Its a reflection of the quality of Vettels machinery over the years that in a race where he gets pole and leads every lap, its claimed he did not have the best car. The lotus was fast, but was flattered by the extra new tyres Kimi had. Vettel only did something amazing in the TR at Monza which as I said was questionable because it was not like his team mate was down in 10th place.

I agree the package is what counts but as you know in F1 the car is the largest element in the package unfortunately.

yup, it's not like that, because his teammate was down in 18th, a lap down.

#385 Zava

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:16

Hamilton won a title without the best car and, almost did it in 2007. He has proved himself without dominant machinery.

that's not what I was asking. which races did Hamilton win this year without a 'dominant' car?

#386 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:16

Hamilton won a title without the best car and, almost did it in 2007. He has proved himself without dominant machinery.

2007 McLaren was the best car on the grid, and at worst, equal best; not to know that they knew the development path, strategies, etc. that Ferrari had adopted for that season. Even Alonso has come out recognizing that in 2007 the best car didn't win any titles.
In 2008 McLaren and Ferrari were also evenly matched, but reliability gave McLaren the upper hand (reliability, and a very convenient Singapore GP which should have been scrapped from the record books that year).


#387 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:18

that's not what I was asking. which races did Hamilton win this year without a 'dominant' car?



Canada 2012

Edited by sammyg, 17 October 2012 - 07:24.


#388 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:18

yup, it's not like that, because his teammate was down in 18th, a lap down.

Actually, Bourdais started P3 and stalled on the grid. Whether he could have maintained his pace on race day is another question. Once he stalled and changed his strategy, the comparisons become useless. What is clear, however, is that Bourdais couldn't even make ground to what should have been much slower cars than the "all-dominant ToroRosso" that day, but again, it could have been down to strategy, or to his car nursing a failure after his grid problem.

#389 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:19

2007 McLaren was the best car on the grid, and at worst, equal best;
In 2008 McLaren and Ferrari were also evenly matched,


Based on what?

#390 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:20

Canada 2011?

At worst, McLaren was the second fastest car that day (a little bit, if any, behind Ferrari). Alonso betting on a 2 stops didn't hurt him either, though.

#391 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:21

Based on what?

Results.
Statements from members from those teams.
Relative performance to the rest of the grid.
Performance when either team dominated a race compared to the other...

#392 krea

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:23

Canada 2011?


Button won Canada 2011

and he had the best car after the last safety car phase.

#393 Zava

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:23

Canada 2011?

Button won that race, not Hamilton. :rolleyes:
about this year's canada: I think the mclaren was the best package there, but Hamilton fluffed his s3 on the second flyer in q3 while Vettel aced it, race pace was the best.

#394 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:23

Results.
Statements from members from those teams.
Relative performance to the rest of the grid.
Performance when either team dominated a race compared to the other...



So basically just results. That's the problem, you are ignoring that results are also heavily influenced by drivers, and if you take that into account the red cars were far superior.

Sorry I meant Canada 2012. He had to fight for the win.

Edited by sammyg, 17 October 2012 - 07:24.


#395 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:25

So basically just results. That's the problem, you are ignoring that results are also heavily influenced by drivers, and if you take that into account the red cars were far superior.

Yeah, "just results", and relative performances from the team with respect to each other... those little things that have little correlation with having the best car.

And very interesting to see that it works one way, but not the other.

When driver you don't like wins a race: It is his car, he will never do anything without superior machinery.
When driver you do like wins a race: It is the driver, of course!

Edited by Mr.Wayne, 17 October 2012 - 07:27.


#396 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:26

Button won Canada 2011

and he had the best car after the last safety car phase.

Clearly he meant 2012. Canada 2011 is one of the most embarrassing performances by Hamilton (on track; off track he has had plenty of those, to the point it gets very difficult to choose).

#397 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:28

Yeah, just "results", and relative performances from the team with respect to each other... those little things that have little correlation with having the best car.

And very interesting to see that it works one way, but not the other.

When driver you don't like wins a race: It is his car, he will never do anything without superior machinery.
When driver you do like wins a race: It is the driver, of course!



Relative performance from the team with respect to each other is still dependant on drivers. You do realise that if those cars were indeed evenly matched, then Massa was evenly matched with Alonso and Hamilton as a driver? Surely you do not believe something as funny as that do you?

#398 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:46

Relative performance from the team with respect to each other is still dependant on drivers. You do realise that if those cars were indeed evenly matched, then Massa was evenly matched with Alonso and Hamilton as a driver? Surely you do not believe something as funny as that do you?

Who was the fastest Ferrari driver last race until team orders came into effect?

And what about Raikkonen and Massa?

Truth is: you don't know... you only see a very tiny bit of the picture, and then your bias completes it the way it suits you best which, by the way, does not have to reassemble what really happens.

#399 mnmracer

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:47

It's kind of funny that the 'Vettel-hasn't-proven-himself' crowd is afraid to say anything about Torro Rosso aside from the alleged 'fastest car in Monza'. Because god forbid that they have to acknowledge what Vettel did in 1.5 years in the back- and midfield.

Everyone who claims Vettel has never shown anything in inferior material and dismisses 1.5 years TR is utterly pathetic.

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#400 sammyg

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:49

And what about Raikkonen and Massa?

Truth is: you don't know... you only see a very tiny bit of the picture, and then your bias completes it the way it suits you best which, by the way, does not have to reassemble what really happens.


There is no bias in determining Massa could not have been evenly matched with Alonso and Hamilton in 2007/2008 considering his performances since 2010. The bias is totally ignoring these facts and going with what you want to believe because of your agenda, so you are basically describing yourself.