192 replies to this topic

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I'm wondering what people now make of Perez replacing Hamilton.

Also wondering if Raikkonen wouldn't have been the superior signing.

Here are some of my thoughts and I'd love feedback/input and opinions:

A) Clearly, Hamilton is one of the Top 2 or 3 "Aces" on the grid and losing him, in my opinion, weakens the ability of McLarens to qualify their cars "well up the grid".

Time and again - as today - you see the consequences of "under-qualifying" the car: I.e. a tangle with a midfield car like Button had today.

Button came off, arguably, his "best" season in 2011...yet he's been lost or invisable in way too many races as a result of "issues" that have made him qualify the car poorly.

Perez has also been out-qualified by Kobayashi way too often for my liking, to he honest.

The counter-point argument has been that Raikkonen, too, has been out-qualified by Grosjean too often.

Yet, Kimi's fans can point to many technical issues that led to Kimi's relatively worse qualifying performances during Q3...and, i'm sure, some of these fans will defend him in this thread.

B) Clearly, whatever you make of Raikkonen's relatively poorer qualifying results, you can not deny these:

1 - Kimi's 2012 season is being rated WAY higher than Button due to a **** mid season by the Englishman; One also can see from subjective Autosport and AMuS ratings that Kimi's season is at least on par as Perez's;

2 - Kimi had been out of single-seaters/open-wheelers for almost two-and-a-half years and, so, was "rusty";

3 - You cannot deny that Kimi has been extremely consistent and has avoided stupid moves like no other driver in 2012. He's brought home points, thus far out-scoring one RBR driver and both McLaren drivers;

4 - There's a reasonable probability that Kimi will "improve" in his 2nd season just as Lauda and Schumacher did.

Given the above factors, it seems (to me) that there's "more to come" from Kimi in 2013.

C) Perez is actually an unknown and we don't know how his input can aid McLarens.

D) Raikkonen's input has been valued in the past by McLaren personel...and, it would seem, Kimi has "matured" since he was in Formula One last...and, also, he's come across as more of "a leader" at Lotus than he'd ever come across at McLaren and Ferrari in his first career.


In the end, I now think that McLaren ought to have signed Raikkonen instread of Perez for 2013.

McLaren - to me - are losing their "better" driver and, franky, I don't rate Button as a true "Ace". Do I rate Raikkonen as an "Ace" anymore? To be honest, i'm not sure. I think he's a "boarder-line Ace" but with the capacity to improve upon a few critical aspects of his driving arsenal going into next season and, thus, making him a bonafide "Ace" again.

What do people think?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 14 October 2012 - 16:01.

[tifosiMac]

No. I'd like to see Kimi do well next year.

[boldhakka]

Kimi wasn't available; he is happy and relaxed at Lotus, thank you very much. And he's beating both the McLaren drivers.

But Perez is a strange choice, I'll give you that.

Edited by boldhakka, 14 October 2012 - 16:08.

[study]

I think Kimi would stay as far away from mclaren as possible.

[olliek88]

No, they should of got the Hulk, seriously quick, talented and much readier. IMO he's much better than Perez. I've said it many times, Sergio good results have mostly come about through being to slow in qualy so Sauber take a gamble on strategy, sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't.

[ViMaMo]

[1001]

If they were the same age and brought the same sponsor money I'm absolutely sure they'd have tried to sign Raikkonen. We don't know how far negotiations went but I'm not convinced Kimi was that keen, the contract might have been too demanding PR-wise.

[tarmac]

He is not free

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941279
Finn Kimi Raikkonen will stay on as his team-mate - his performances in his comeback F1 season after two years in rallying have activated a clause which automatically makes him under contract in 2013.

More problems: Ron and too much PR. Nighmares of breaking cars

[RayInTorontoCanada]

No. I'd like to see Kimi do well next year.

Aha ha!



Inspite of what you may think, McLaren have more resources and have the greater capacity to provide Kimi with race victories, etc.

Let's be brutally honest here. We're talking about a team (from Woking) that can win races even during their worst seasons (like 2009, 2006).

The team from Enstone has only 1 legitimate win in 6 seasons.

[boldhakka]

To be honest, I don't think they're interested in signing and retaining top drivers anymore. Just like they weren't too desperate to keep Newey. They seem to want to build a system that will keep working even without the stars, be it drivers or designers. In fact signing Perez is a pretty strong signal that they aren't really interested in the best drivers, but rather are looking to get solid drivers and put the right processes in place to help them succeed.

Good luck to them, it's a different approach.

[study]

To be honest, I don't think they're interested in signing and retaining top drivers anymore. Just like they weren't too desperate to keep Newey. They seem to want to build a system that will keep working even without the stars, be it drivers or designers. In fact signing Perez is a pretty strong signal that they aren't really interested in the best drivers, but rather are looking to get solid drivers and put the right processes in place to help them succeed.

Good luck to them, it's a different approach.

Processes to help succeed, lol thats a good joke

I don't think Whitmarsh would sign another driver that could threaten Button.

[sharo]

I think Kimi would stay as far away from mclaren as possible.

Me too. McLaren may be able to provide a lot more resources but I think they cannot provide what Kimi actually needs.

[Nycco]

I love Raikkonen, for me he is amazing and I've always been a fan. But I don't think he should have got back to McLaren now. He is not so young anymore, his commitment can switch suddenly as we saw from F1 to rally from rally to F1, so you can't build anything on the long term with him. Moreover let's not forget he decided to leave McLaren in 2006, for Ferrari, a direct competitor, so McLaren wouldn't want to allow such a comeback otherwise all the future drivers will see McLaren only as a step of their career not the pinnacle.

Yet is Perez better than Kimi ? No, never, in any sort of form. He is young but he's not world top 3 material. And he's too commited to Ferrari as well, so he will got to Italia after 2-3 years, I'm sure. I continue to pretend that Vettel was the only option for McLaren. By not getting him signed they showed financial weakness and strategical error for their own future.

[Skinnyguy]

Kimi mode:

"I don´t know. I think so you never know what happens next."

Translation: No one know how much is left in Kimi and how much Perez will give over the years.

[Wander]

Moreover let's not forget he decided to leave McLaren in 2006, for Ferrari, a direct competitor, so McLaren wouldn't want to allow such a comeback otherwise all the future drivers will see McLaren only as a step of their career not the pinnacle.

Yet is Perez better than Kimi ? No, never, in any sort of form. He is young but he's not world top 3 material. And he's too commited to Ferrari as well, so he will got to Italia after 2-3 years, I'm sure.

Did you not just completely contradict yourself?

[eronrules]

kimi has first had experience of all the bull**** politics that goes in mclaren. he is happy at lotus where they understand what kimi is, a wild animal. how may times this year Eric Boullier has praised kimi ??? earlier, it seemed that was a marketing ploy, but i genuinely believe now a days, the whole lotusF1 team believes in kimi's phenomenal ability, james allison specially has praised kimi's precision and feed back, so as permane. Trust me as a former Staunch Mclaren supporter (i'll always have the soft spot for them due to Kimi era and Lewis era ... ) when is say my mind wanted kimi as a replacement for Lewis but my brain wished kimi stay where he is. As one of the phrase i always use ... '' better be the big fish in a pond than be the small fry in river''

Kimi doesn't have a good relationship with Ron Dennis after 2006, and we all know how important that is to keep your seat in Macca.

but putting aside all jokes ... can anyone here imagine Kimi doing an epidose of TOONED ???

[rijole1]

To be honest, I don't think they're interested in signing and retaining top drivers anymore. Just like they weren't too desperate to keep Newey. They seem to want to build a system that will keep working even without the stars, be it drivers or designers. In fact signing Perez is a pretty strong signal that they aren't really interested in the best drivers, but rather are looking to get solid drivers and put the right processes in place to help them succeed.

Good luck to them, it's a different approach.

That's interesting, if that's their approach.

Drivers must of course be professional, as the engineers.
Do they think talent and creativity are overestimated qualities?
Can great system, teamwork and computers replace those qualities?

If McLaren wants to go this way, I hope they think about it one more time...

[aditya-now]

I love Raikkonen, for me he is amazing and I've always been a fan. But I don't think he should have got back to McLaren now. He is not so young anymore, his commitment can switch suddenly as we saw from F1 to rally from rally to F1, so you can't build anything on the long term with him. Moreover let's not forget he decided to leave McLaren in 2006, for Ferrari, a direct competitor, so McLaren wouldn't want to allow such a comeback otherwise all the future drivers will see McLaren only as a step of their career not the pinnacle.

Yet is Perez better than Kimi ? No, never, in any sort of form. He is young but he's not world top 3 material. And he's too commited to Ferrari as well, so he will go to Italia after 2-3 years, I'm sure. I continue to pretend that Vettel was the only option for McLaren. By not getting him signed they showed financial weakness and strategical error for their own future.

...if Ferrari has a drive and need for him.

For Kimi it's perfect where he is now - at least until the end of 2013. Thereafter it will be interesting to see where he can drive - Mercedes instead of Rosberg? Ferrari instead of Massa? (....wouldn't make sense) Red Bull instead of Vettel? (would make a lot of sense!)

Good for Kimi he did not go back to McLaren - the team is strange these days.

[rijole1]

Processes to help succeed, lol thats a good joke

I don't think Whitmarsh would sign another driver that could threaten Button.

If processes are the new McLaren thing - Kimi shoud stay far away from that team.
Kimi doesn't seem to be a process kind of guy...

[tarmac]

I dont see him going anywhere but Red Bull because its not too corporate or quitting after 2013

[eronrules]

Did you not just completely contradict yourself?

i think what he meant is ''not yet'' ... mclaren always seemed to use the technique of employing fast youngstars with wise veterans and i believe they too know with certain probability that if a driver is quick enough, he'll never finish carrer with mclaren, or dare i say mclaren don't need a driver in his twilight years dwindling in mclaren. you'd never expect mclaren to give the likes of schumi a drive. so if perez turns out to be a diamond in the rough (like kimi/lewis), mclaren have probably calculated how long they can keep perez, extract the maximum out and when perez starts to become too dominant for his own good, they'll let him go, like Kimi/lewis/montoya or if he's not so good like brundle/heikki/de la rosa then just replace him with another potential investment.

since 2007 season, i've began to understand the way mclaren operates. it's like a PLC/GmBh/LTD, winning title is important but not he end of the world, but regular and popular victories with drivers who maintain/ keeps title hope alive is much more media friendly (considering British media, they love underdogs ) than runaway dominance of RBR/Ferrari (insert german jokes here ). the passion is replaced by accountancy and racing replace by logic. perhaps that's why Hakkinen was the last great Mclaren driver to finish his golden years and carrier with Mclaren, maybe that's the end of the lauda/senna/prost/mika racing era for mclaren and begining of alonso/kimi/button/lewis/perez commercial era of mclaren PLC.

[F1Champion]

I honestly thought that Whitmarsh would sign Kimi as he was still a fan of his. Kimi has done fantastically well to be 3rd in the WDC in a weak car with others like Button and Webber and Hamilton in stronger cars. He has been incredibly consistent this season. I would of paid off Lotus for their 2013 clause and welcomed back Kimi with open arms. Perez is quick but inexperienced, Kimi is a known quantity.

[beute]

I dont think this was a "raikkönen vs perez" decision, there have been plenty of options all better than Perez imho, not just Raikkonen.
Mclaren just fell for the hype and signed him way too fast..
Saubers strategy department is to praise for all their podiums except for the one kobayashi got in japan, that was earned through sheer pace and not by gambling on a unconventional strategy...

[2ms]

I am definitely very surprised by the choice of Perez.

However, I think the fact they didn't sign Kimi is simply an indication Kimi wasn't available. Moreover, I suspect it's an indication he's hanging out for a seat at Red Bull in 2014. Driving for 3 teams in 3 seasons would have been too much.

[gm914]

If processes are the new McLaren thing - Kimi shoud stay far away from that team.
Kimi doesn't seem to be a process kind of guy...

Well they did make a processed HAM for a few years...

[Fatgadget]

I think Kimi would stay as far away from mclaren as possible.

LOL!

[DutchQuicksilver]

Nah, the business like image of McLaren doesnt suit Raikkonen at all. The Lotus team is far more laid back, suits Raikkonen a lot more.

[topical]

Yes, Kimi would have been better than Perez. He's not in the Hamilton-Alonso-Vettel category but he's probably the next best on the grid (apart from his crap qualifying). But it's not going to happen so no point thinking about it too much.

[F1Champion]

Kimi to Red Bull in 2014 then? Suits me as long as he is in a top car.

[Torsion]

To be honest, I don't think they're interested in signing and retaining top drivers anymore. Just like they weren't too desperate to keep Newey. They seem to want to build a system that will keep working even without the stars, be it drivers or designers. In fact signing Perez is a pretty strong signal that they aren't really interested in the best drivers, but rather are looking to get solid drivers and put the right processes in place to help them succeed.

Good luck to them, it's a different approach.

I don't think they had any choice when they lost the Hamster. Kimi was not available, and probably not wiling to switch anyway. Looking at the past 10 years, I don't think Maclaren can afford not to have a top driver, as they really haven't produced any car which has dominated the field for a long time. They are competitive, but to win a Championship with a competitive car, I think you need a top driver - specially considering the rest of the field.

Coming back to Kimi, I have a sneaking feeling that may be for whatever reason, he is determined to do well with Lotus. May be to mend his reputation? unjustly affected by his last years at Ferrari, I don't know, but I certainly think that he would enjoy winning a championship more with Lotus, than with Ferrari or Maclaren. May be he was looking for a different challenge when he came back to F1, possibly something more than to just driver for a fast team.

[bourbon]

I think next year Perez will show that some have underestimated him. He is a budding star. - has tons of potential.

Perez is a new fav, but Kimi is my longest standing fav - and I'd give him precedence in the McLaren drive if I thought it was the best place for him. But I don't. I think Kimi is very comfortable at Lotus, so I dig him right where he is. I think Perez will flourish in a top car, so I am very happy about the Macca opportunity for him.

Long story short, it has sorted perfectly.

[BigCHrome]

No, they should of got the Hulk, seriously quick, talented and much readier. IMO he's much better than Perez. I've said it many times, Sergio good results have mostly come about through being to slow in qualy so Sauber take a gamble on strategy, sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't.

Just because you've said it doesn't mean it's true. There's 14 drivers who get a free choice of tire selection every race, yet it's always Perez coming through the field. It's not a coincidence.

[ZooL]

Yes, he's the closest driver to the top 3 tier in F1 (Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel). Doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.

[eronrules]

... Coming back to Kimi, I have a sneaking feeling that may be for whatever reason, he is determined to do well with Lotus. May be to mend his reputation? unjustly affected by his last years at Ferrari, I don't know, but I certainly think that he would enjoy winning a championship more with Lotus, than with Ferrari or Maclaren. May be he was looking for a different challenge when he came back to F1, possibly something more than to just driver for a fast team.

are you serious ??? mend what ??? it's a open secret that he was shoved aside by santander money ... and don't give us that ''motivation'' Bullcrap.

Edited by eronrules, 14 October 2012 - 17:46.

[femi]

KIMI is never going back to Mclaren. If Mclaen were genuinely looking for a young, fast all round good quality driver, Hulk is the guy. But I think contrary to their policy, they went for a driver that will be a number 2 to JB. They went for a Ferrari reject. What a joke...

Mclaren are proven experts at shooting themselves in the foot.

Edited by femi, 14 October 2012 - 17:46.

[eronrules]

Nah, the business like image of McLaren doesnt suit Raikkonen at all. The Lotus team is far more laid back, suits Raikkonen a lot more.

beside, kimi looks good in Black, remember those black/grey mclaren cars till 2005 ... they look beastly ... also black is my favorite color

IMO for kimi ...


season 2012 : The ICEMAN Begins (superb begining of 2nd stint for F1 carrer)
season 2013 : The DARK KNIGHT (much more consistent with podium and number of race victories, fight for championship)
season 2014 : THe DARK KNIGHT RISES (Real championship push with new Renault V6)

Edited by eronrules, 14 October 2012 - 17:56.

[femi]

Listening to drivers that left Mclaren, DC included, Mclaren is not a happy working environment. They can't even hold on to staff if Merc, Ferrari or RB wants that staff.

[jeze]

Aha ha!



Inspite of what you may think, McLaren have more resources and have the greater capacity to provide Kimi with race victories, etc.

Let's be brutally honest here. We're talking about a team (from Woking) that can win races even during their worst seasons (like 2009, 2006).

The team from Enstone has only 1 legitimate win in 6 seasons.

Except they didn't win a race in 2006...


Then Kimi won the 2007 title with Ferrari and McLaren won eight races without him. Strange sport this.

[Torsion]

are you serious ??? mend what ??? it's a open secret that he was shoved aside by santander money ... and don't give us that ''motivation'' Bullcrap.

May be you missed the word Unjustly?

[SpaMaster]

If processes are the new McLaren thing - Kimi shoud stay far away from that team.
Kimi doesn't seem to be a process kind of guy...

I am a big believer in the processes and the journeys. But that made me laugh even as I eat.

BTW, How many years did McLaren sign Perez for?

Edited by SpaMaster, 14 October 2012 - 18:00.

[garoidb]

I dont think this was a "raikkönen vs perez" decision, there have been plenty of options all better than Perez imho, not just Raikkonen.
Mclaren just fell for the hype and signed him way too fast..
Saubers strategy department is to praise for all their podiums except for the one kobayashi got in japan, that was earned through sheer pace and not by gambling on a unconventional strategy...

I think they got somewhat bounced into signing Perez due to the unexpectedness and lateness of the Hamilton decision. I'd be surprised if his contract is watertight for more than one year (get out clauses etc). McLaren now need to look for the next Vettel (unless Perez does unexpectedly well).

Button is a good driver to have on the team, but he is not the long term future.

[rijole1]

Well they did make a processed HAM for a few years...

And see what happened - the processed HAM escaped in desire to be real meat again?!

[Tauhid]

McLaren are their own worst enemies. No matter who drives for them, I don't see them winning a WCC for another decade or so if this management and engineers are all the same. I mean you are the only team to employ two champions in the whole grid for three years now and even then you don't win a WCC and lets not forget, out of all three seasons, you clearly had the best or the 2nd best car on average throughout the whole season. DNFs, technical failures and some of the most weirdest strategies to ever been laid out has shown me why any driver who walks into this team is not looking for a good future. Maybe race wins but not championship material. Employ whoever you like but come back to me when you get a better driver than Lewis Hamilton in the next decade or so.

Edited by Tauhid, 14 October 2012 - 19:18.

[SunnyENTP]

You really must hate Kimi

[rijole1]

I am a big believer in the processes and the journeys. But that made me laugh even as I eat.

BTW, How many years did McLaren sign Perez for?

Processes are great, if you use them in right context and with right people.
If you want hardcore process your team - Kimi will flee away

I've also been wondering about Perez contract.
The only thing I've seen is that he's signed for 'several years'
I think it would be strange if McLaren sign him without any performance clause after first year.
So they can get him out of the team if it doesn't work.
But, maybe it's a standard to have one in these contracts - never seen one...

[kismet]

Nope. Been there, done that - and the t-shirts were ugly.

[Nathan]

McLaren is better off in the long-term having an experienced driver and an "up and comer" than two drivers within a few years of retirement/downward slope.

Look what Hamilton did for morale at McLaren. Perez can do the same.

[jeze]

I'm not sure but I'd believe that Pérez contract will be 2 + 1 years much like Button's current one. He'd refuse a one-year deal when he basically could drive for Sauber with Telmex paying the bills for how long he pleased.

[HoldenRT]

Kimi is good but a known quantity.. Perez has upside. Kimi won't be around for ever.. Perez can be developed for the future.. and there is also an experienced hand in Button to help him and guide the team.

[Yellowmc]

To be perfectly honest, this pairing of Kimi and McLaren do have unfinished business and Martin is a big admirer but they don't gel togethor very well and Kimi is better suited at Lotus. The only other team I can see him fitting so well into is Red Bull.

In regards to Perez though, I do think McLaren jumped the gun a little and signed a driver largely through desperation and hype. I would've gone with Hulkenberg, now there's someone for the future or perhaps sign someone on a 1 year deal and then look for a top class driver in 2014 with the shakeup. I do feel the Perez and Button combination is weak.