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Should McLaren Have Signed Raikkonen Instead...


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#151 l8apex

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 20:31

Mclaren would be better of with Kimi, but Kimi is better off without McLaren.

I think Grosjean is the guy with the most potential. If he hadn't been a retard at the start of half the races McLaren would have signed him.



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#152 bourbon

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 21:11

^^this.

McLaren would be well off with Raikkonen, but he seems happy where he is, so Lotus would be best if he believes it so.

However, Perez is going to blow a lot of minds - apparently - because so many seem to feel he is not quite up to par. But he is definitely a young gun, he just needs some ammunition (Macca) and yet another star will be born. He's young, there will be mistakes and errors due to impatience, but he is definitely a colt waiting on the barn door to open so he can bolt. He'll be contending for the championship, no doubt about that (to my mind anyway). :D

So since Kimi isn't interested in Macca, Perez it should be.

Edited by bourbon, 17 October 2012 - 21:12.


#153 Mc_Silver

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 21:17

^^this.

McLaren would be well off with Raikkonen, but he seems happy where he is, so Lotus would be best if he believes it so.

However, Perez is going to blow a lot of minds - apparently - because so many seem to feel he is not quite up to par. But he is definitely a young gun, he just needs some ammunition (Macca) and yet another star will be born. He's young, there will be mistakes and errors due to impatience, but he is definitely a colt waiting on the barn door to open so he can bolt. He'll be contending for the championship, no doubt about that (to my mind anyway). :D

So since Kimi isn't interested in Macca, Perez it should be.


Good post. I think Perez has big potential. I am sure McLaren will give him good opportunity to improve himself and become a top driver. He just needs more experience and time

#154 FenderJaguar

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 21:46

I'm a Kimi fan and it would have been nice to see him back at McLaren, but that's history so with some time to think about McLaren and next season I think they have gone for an interesting lineup.

1. Button and Hamilton never did work well together. Not really. It's always as if one is happy the other is miserable so it is probably better for McLaren to have one of them than both.
2. Button might not be the fastest over a lap, but he can be really good in races and given a good car he will deliver points like a machine. One of the smartest out there and he might just rise to the occasion. Not sure, but McLaren has to play him as their lead driver into next season for sure.
3. McLaren mistakes in pits and so on - will probably go away next season. The team will take these drivers to their hearts as a fresh start and work well and hard.
4. Perez is at least an interesting young driver. I might have picked Hulkenberg over him and Perez might or might not be hyped, but he can be really good. Difficult to say. He will make some mistakes but he is young and interesting. Very nice choice from McLaren especially compared to the choice Ferrari has made for their second driver.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 17 October 2012 - 21:49.


#155 King Six

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 22:01

Well there's no doubt Raikkonen would have been a better choice than Perez, but I think McLaren felt like making a bold decision. Saying that, they signed Heikki who wasn't exactly brilliant so it's not like they always sign great drivers...

#156 turssi

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 00:36

I personally think it's good to leave the past behind, but to give a boring answer to the question in the topic:

If Kimi out-scores Perez in 2013, 2014 and 2015 then McLaren should have signed him instead...

#157 BackOnTop

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:37

I personally think it's good to leave the past behind, but to give a boring answer to the question in the topic:

If Kimi out-scores Perez in 2013, 2014 and 2015 then McLaren should have signed him instead...

I think the "If" is not even in question... considering what Kimi is doing this season in a decent Lotus against Hamilton & Button in a Mclaren that is overall a superior beast.

Raikkonen just needs another decent car in 2013 to challenge the top order of RedBull, Ferrari & Mclaren again. So the 2013 Lotus car is the only worry.

2012 Drivers Standing after Korea:
01 Sebastian Vettel 215
02 Fernando Alonso 209
03 Kimi Räikkönen 167
04 Lewis Hamilton 153
05 Mark Webber 152
06 Jenson Button 131

About Mclaren, all Kimi can say to that is 'been there, done that'.

Edited by BackOnTop, 18 October 2012 - 05:39.


#158 turssi

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 15:38

I think the "If" is not even in question... considering what Kimi is doing this season in a decent Lotus against Hamilton & Button in a Mclaren that is overall a superior beast.

Raikkonen just needs another decent car in 2013 to challenge the top order of RedBull, Ferrari & Mclaren again. So the 2013 Lotus car is the only worry.

2012 Drivers Standing after Korea:
01 Sebastian Vettel 215
02 Fernando Alonso 209
03 Kimi Räikkönen 167
04 Lewis Hamilton 153
05 Mark Webber 152
06 Jenson Button 131

About Mclaren, all Kimi can say to that is 'been there, done that'.


Fully agree with you, my IF is about whether or not Kimi keeps racing F1 after 2013. Could be a default win in there for Perez!

#159 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:19

O dear.

One would have thought that Checo would be a little more 'serene' these days given that he's got his 2013/14 secure.

Instead, he's just chucking it away.

Ok, Kimi didn't beat Massa at the weekend...but he did a heck of a lot better than Checo and Grosjean. In addition, that Ferrari was a better package than the Lotus, especially in a straight line and on hard tyres. And, lets not forget, Felipe' qualified within a 10th of the benchmark...so, it's not like Kimi was up against the Massa of the early part of the year.

I fear McLaren are going down a slippery slope.

Right now, I don't think Checo is what McLaren needs for 2013. I see Woking being weaker in 2013 and that wouldn't be my feeling had they signed Raikkonen.

This stuff about 'Kimi being "happy" at Lotus" is utter horseshit because every racing driver worth his salt ought to be in it to win races...and, to me, McLaren can provide consistent opportunities for race wins in relation to Lotus.

Shame, really.

I think McLaren will pay dearly for announcing Perez in haste (to not look like they'd had the rug pulled out from under them, perhaps?) and for not picking the best available driver for 2013.


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 29 October 2012 - 15:32.


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#160 SpaMaster

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 15:35

I still don't understand why they signed Perez. Probably they did not have much choice. Just 2 or 3 good performances year does not convince of such big jump.

#161 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 20:15

I still don't understand why they signed Perez. Probably they did not have much choice. Just 2 or 3 good performances year does not convince of such big jump.

Have a bit of patience and wait til the Australian GP to see if they made the right decision.

#162 Vesuvius

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 20:16

Perez has had few good flashes but other than that he has made too many errrors and hasn't been that fast often beated by Koba.

#163 Zava

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:52

from Kulta:

"That result level was exceeded already in spring. In practice Räikkönen's continuance was a done deal during Spain GP. At least that's what the team management let me understand when I asked about contract prospects."

"As a matter of fact he didn't have to stress over this contract at any stage. Not even when McLaren had quickly asked Kimi about his possible interest to replace Lewis Hamilton in the summer."


#164 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:28

from Kulta:

"Not even when McLaren had quickly asked Kimi about his possible interest to replace Lewis Hamilton in the summer."


So...Kimi no longer has any interest in consistently winning Grand Prix races anymore, then?

So...Kimi would rather peddle around in 4th, 5th, 3rd and, possibly, the occassional 2nd than fight for wins on a regular basis?

Wow!

:down:



#165 Sexton

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:36

So...Kimi no longer has any interest in consistently winning Grand Prix races anymore, then?

So...Kimi would rather peddle around in 4th, 5th, 3rd and, possibly, the occassional 2nd than fight for wins on a regular basis?

Wow!

:down:


Going by your logic the same could be said about Hamilton now and Alonso back in ´07.

#166 Zava

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:06

So...Kimi no longer has any interest in consistently winning Grand Prix races anymore, then?

So...Kimi would rather peddle around in 4th, 5th, 3rd and, possibly, the occassional 2nd than fight for wins on a regular basis?

Wow!

:down:

I assume you didn't read the other bolded part?

#167 engel

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:10

Common wisdom is that Lotus had an option to auto-renew Kimi's contract subject to performance clauses and these were met before the midpoint in the season so the contract was auto-renewed. The McLaren thing was just noise, Kimi was committed to Lotus at the time.

#168 SpaMaster

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 17:34

Yes, it looks like McLaren never could sign Raikkonen, as his contract with Lotus became automatically for 2 years when the performance clauses were met.

#169 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:51

Going by your logic the same could be said about Hamilton now and Alonso back in ´07.


No.

Hamilton is going to a team with, arguably, bigger resources and their own engine...and Brawn won Championships in '09. And, at least, Mercedes dominated a weekend in China this year and had the fastest car at Monaco. This year.

Alonso had no other better option. Staying at McLaren was NOT an option for Nando after the debacle of Hungary in 2007.

In addition, Nando was going back to a team that had won the titles in '06 and '05.

It's not the same thing - Lotus aren't a BIG team like the works Mercedes team now or the works Renault team at mid decade in the 00s.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 October 2012 - 18:59.


#170 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 18:57

Common wisdom is that Lotus had an option to auto-renew Kimi's contract subject to performance clauses and these were met before the midpoint in the season so the contract was auto-renewed.


With all due respect to you, sir...contracts are broken left, right and centre! Even if they're "auto-renewed" like Raikkonen's was with Ferrari in '08/'09.

History is littered with it. Senna with Toleman in '84 and Lotus. Prost with Renault in '83 and Ferrari in '91. Schumacher with Jordan in '91. Montoya with McLaren in '06. Alonso with McLaren in '07. Raikkonen with Ferrari in '09.

Raikkonen with Sauber also. In '01.

The biggest names in the last 30 years have broken contracts. Money talks in F1. Everything else is secondary.

It's hardly new to kill a contract.

Yes, it looks like McLaren never could sign Raikkonen, as his contract with Lotus became automatically for 2 years when the performance clauses were met.


As above.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 October 2012 - 19:03.


#171 engel

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:26

With all due respect to you, sir...contracts are broken left, right and centre! Even if they're "auto-renewed" like Raikkonen's was with Ferrari in '08/'09.

History is littered with it. Senna with Toleman in '84 and Lotus. Prost with Renault in '83 and Ferrari in '91. Schumacher with Jordan in '91. Montoya with McLaren in '06. Alonso with McLaren in '07. Raikkonen with Ferrari in '09.

Raikkonen with Sauber also. In '01.

The biggest names in the last 30 years have broken contracts. Money talks in F1. Everything else is secondary.

It's hardly new to kill a contract.



As above.

For a contract to be broken it requires a party willing to break it and money. The jump from that to this

So...Kimi no longer has any interest in consistently winning Grand Prix races anymore, then?

So...Kimi would rather peddle around in 4th, 5th, 3rd and, possibly, the occassional 2nd than fight for wins on a regular basis?

Wow!

:down:


is intergalactic. And it also presupposes a million things. Most basic of which is that McLaren was interested in paying Lotus to buy Kimi out of his renewed contract. And that Kimi would think next year's McLaren will be better than next year's Lotus so that he would be willing to entertain having his contract bought out. And of course that he would be interested in returning to a corporate environment McLaren style. Taking a million ifs from an offer you have no idea the content of (or indeed if it was an offer or just a feeler) and arriving at the conclusion that he has no interest in winning Grands Prix is pretty hilarious though. Perhaps though in all that you have missed the fact than in a Lotus Kimi is ahead in the championship of both McLaren's this year. And back in March lots of people thought the McLarens were rocketships. Just saying.

#172 F1Champion

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:32

I just don't see Renault having an upturn in performance that can regularly challenge Ferrari, RB and McLaren. Today its all about cash - they had in in 05 and 06 but RB, Ferrari and McLaren are leagues ahead. IF Kimi he had a choice should have picked McLaren - but in reality Renault aren't stupid and they were the ones to sign him and they had a good performance clause which he reached therefore he was automatically theirs for 2013.

Edited by F1Champion, 30 October 2012 - 19:33.


#173 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 21:28

Taking a million ifs from an offer you have no idea the content of (or indeed if it was an offer or just a feeler) and arriving at the conclusion that he has no interest in winning Grands Prix is pretty hilarious though. Perhaps though in all that you have missed the fact than in a Lotus Kimi is ahead in the championship of both McLaren's this year. And back in March lots of people thought the McLarens were rocketships. Just saying.


Do you honestly think i've missed the fact that Kimi's lying ahead of Lewis and Jense in the points table? :well:

That is hilarious in itself! :wave:

Kimi is, in my view, a greater driver than Button. So it's not surprising to see that. Hamilton, on the other hand, has been royally screwed by McLaren in terms of qualifying and race prep and in terms of pitstops and reliability in 2012. Spain and Singapore were 'in-the-bag' wins which McLaren threw away.

I don't think Kimi will finish this championship ahead of Lewis.

So, to me, Kimi's only ahead because McLaren have let Hamilton down...but there's 3 Grand Prix left and McLaren have a better chance of winning in Abu, Texas and Interlagos than Lotus does.

That form's likely to be carried into 2013...but I don't think McLaren have got a bonafide Ace to do justice to it's car potential in 2013. Kimi can try all he can...but the resources at Enstone aren't what they used to be when the Regie were writing the cheques.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 30 October 2012 - 21:32.


#174 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 21:37

I just don't see Renault having an upturn in performance that can regularly challenge Ferrari, RB and McLaren.



That's because they're no longer Renault! :)

But your point is well taken, nonetheless.

They cannot compete with Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes...unless the FIA and Ecclestone and the Teams themselves crack down on budgets and have a genuine and varifyable resource restriction arrangement (RRA).

#175 spinster

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 21:48

Do you honestly think i've missed the fact that Kimi's lying ahead of Lewis and Jense in the points table? :well:

That is hilarious in itself! :wave:

Kimi is, in my view, a greater driver than Button. So it's not surprising to see that. Hamilton, on the other hand, has been royally screwed by McLaren in terms of qualifying and race prep and in terms of pitstops and reliability in 2012. Spain and Singapore were 'in-the-bag' wins which McLaren threw away.

I don't think Kimi will finish this championship ahead of Lewis.

So, to me, Kimi's only ahead because McLaren have let Hamilton down...but there's 3 Grand Prix left and McLaren have a better chance of winning in Abu, Texas and Interlagos than Lotus does.

That form's likely to be carried into 2013...but I don't think McLaren have got a bonafide Ace to do justice to it's car potential in 2013. Kimi can try all he can...but the resources at Enstone aren't what they used to be when the Regie were writing the cheques.


Would you ever thought back in 2011 that the lotus would be this good compared to mclaren in 2012...this way of thinking is just ridiculous


#176 techspeed

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 23:19

I still don't understand why they signed Perez. Probably they did not have much choice. Just 2 or 3 good performances year does not convince of such big jump.

You could have said exactly the same of two of McLarens previous drivers, who happen to be Hakkinen and Raikkonnen. Most especially with the lack of car experience Rakkonnen had at the time.

#177 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:39

You could have said exactly the same of two of McLarens previous drivers, who happen to be Hakkinen and Raikkonnen. Most especially with the lack of car experience Rakkonnen had at the time.

Tech , i see your point but , wasn't Heikki before Mika? :drunk:



Completely agree with Engel.All points spot on.
Ray, you seem to have an ax to grind......

Edited by InSearchOfThe, 31 October 2012 - 01:40.


#178 tarmac

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 20:29

Yes, it looks like McLaren never could sign Raikkonen, as his contract with Lotus became automatically for 2 years when the performance clauses were met.


It didnt look a 100% deal
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5999788

Kimi Räikkönen's decision to continue in Lotus was made up only last week before signing the contract.

The team had the contract offer on the table for a longer time already.

- I could have signed it ages ago, but I was in no hurry in any direction. All things always live in every direction, Räikkönen told MTV3.

Where you in contact with other F1-teams?

- Yes, with a few, Räikkönen confirms.

Räikkönen didn't want to tell which teams he was talking about.

- It doesn't matter, but at least they weren't teams worse than us.



He has had contact with other teams. But he only wanted one year contract.. Besides the same seats could be available a year from now (Button,Massa,Webber)

#179 2ms

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 21:03

It was never up for discussion. He's already got a Red Bull seat 2014. That's what I think. And it's also happens to be the most rational explanation.

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#180 Vesuvius

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 21:07

It was never up for discussion. He's already got a Red Bull seat 2014. That's what I think. And it's also happens to be the most rational explanation.


I Don't think he has any deal for 2014... Option maybe but that's all and I highly doubt that.

Edited by Vesuvius, 01 November 2012 - 21:07.


#181 autosportfan

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:00

So...Kimi no longer has any interest in consistently winning Grand Prix races anymore, then?

So...Kimi would rather peddle around in 4th, 5th, 3rd and, possibly, the occassional 2nd than fight for wins on a regular basis?

Wow!

:down:



I think Adrian won vs McL. development team.

RBR in 2014.



#182 SpaMaster

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:23

With all due respect to you, sir...contracts are broken left, right and centre! Even if they're "auto-renewed" like Raikkonen's was with Ferrari in '08/'09.

History is littered with it. Senna with Toleman in '84 and Lotus. Prost with Renault in '83 and Ferrari in '91. Schumacher with Jordan in '91. Montoya with McLaren in '06. Alonso with McLaren in '07. Raikkonen with Ferrari in '09.

Raikkonen with Sauber also. In '01.

The biggest names in the last 30 years have broken contracts. Money talks in F1. Everything else is secondary.

It's hardly new to kill a contract.



As above.

But contracts are not broken all the time. Drivers often wait out and change teams when the contracts get over. Raikkonen may not have been willing to pay million dollar penalties for that. Nor would have McLaren wanted to pay extra millions of dollars bending their back to sign Raikkonen. Yes, contracts can be broken if absolutely needed. But that is not the norm.

It didnt look a 100% deal
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5999788
..

He has had contact with other teams. But he only wanted one year contract.. Besides the same seats could be available a year from now (Button,Massa,Webber)

Where does it say he was a free agent for 2013?

Edited by SpaMaster, 02 November 2012 - 16:27.


#183 Eff One 2002

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:29

5 seasons of racing for Macca was probably enough for Raikkonen and he seems quite content where he is.

#184 Creepy

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:35

I think Adrian won vs McL. development team.

RBR in 2014.


I don't think Kimi is going to RBR in 2014 unless Vettel went to anywhere else. And I don't know why he should (which could be why Vettel has rubished the Ferrari rumors) taking into account Newey is there...

Just saying because recently I read somewhere that both Toro Rosso drivers have a real shot at RBR according to RBR. That would make Vettel + one of the TR drivers in 2014... Assuming of course that Webber doesn't get another year.

It would be only logical for RBR otherwise the Toro Rosso's existence what would be for?

Not that this've got to be bad for Kimi. I think at Lotus he could build the team "around him".

Edited by Creepy, 03 November 2012 - 01:48.


#185 SpaMaster

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:21

It would be only logical for RBR otherwise the Toro Rosso's existence what would be for?

..

Torro Rosso is there to help RBR, not the other way around. Red Bull is not bound to hire Torro Ross drivers only.

#186 aray

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:30

Mclaren already have JB,why do they need another one of his type.....?
still Perez seems a hurried decision,they should have gone with Hulk...

#187 Alx09

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:17

Kimi + McLaren is a bad match, due to all sponsor events etc that Kimi does not want to do.

I'm surprised McLaren didn't get Hulkenberg though. Perez indeed seem to be a hurried decision.

Edited by Alx09, 03 November 2012 - 09:17.


#188 ff1600

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:37

McLaren should have signed Kimi. I am A Button fan but he lacks qualifing speed and may be just a touch slower than other drivers but he does not make mistakes. Kimi has the qualifing speed but lacks the car right now. I read someplace a few years ago that according to an engineer that worked with or was some how worked with Senna and Schumacker and he said Kimi was faster than both of them.

#189 Peter Perfect

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:57

This thread assumes that Kimi would've wanted to go to McLaren, as has been mentioned I think he's well aware of the PR duties required for the team and the culture that he team work to.

Besides which, as good as Kimi is McLaren already have a 32 year old driver, why would they want a 33 year old one too?

#190 Atreiu

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:04

Actually, they should not have let Hamilton go and have done whatever it took to resign him already in 2011.

#191 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:05

It was never up for discussion. He's already got a Red Bull seat 2014. That's what I think. And it's also happens to be the most rational explanation.


He won't have a seat until Webber decides what he's doing in 2014. If Red Bull wanted Kimi more than Mark, they'd have taken him for next year.

If Webber goes to Ferrari or retires, Kimi's got a shot at the Red Bull seat alongside Vettel. But Kimi's future hinges on Webber.


#192 bub

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:22

Thought I had already replied to this thread but apparently not. I'm a Kimi fan so I'd definitely choose him over Perez. I've never been especially impressed with Pérez although he seems pretty good for his age. If I was McLaren boss I would go for a Button/Kimi lines up or if I wanted a younger guy Hulk would be my first choice followed by Pérez/Buemi/Alguersuari.

Edited by bub, 03 November 2012 - 16:41.


#193 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:50

Wow, Wow ... and Wow!

Wow 1... Kimi just keeps creeping towards that Ace status he had from 2003-2007 and the second half of 2009!

---

Wow 2... Button underperformed yet again! Hamilton said McLaren had a dominant car and would/should have had a 1-2. Here:

http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular

But Jenson was out-qualified by Madonado and Raikkonen in cars that were far from "dominant" and he was nowhere near Lewis to pick up the pieces when the Number 1 McLaren driver lost drive!

---

Wow 3... Perez. What can you say about Checo at this Abu Dhabi Grand Prix?


Bottom Line:

McLaren are in deep shit next year!

For chunks of the season, Jenson has been invisible whilst Hamilton has been able to monster that MP4-27 right onto the front row.

The regs aren't going to be revolutionary in 2013...so, unless the engineers at Woking have a massive "Eruika Moment", how on earth are McLaren going to win more than the odd race here or there when neither 2013 driver looks like being able to qualify the car consitently at the very Sharp End of the grid.

Imagine what they're losing in Hamilton!

Ron Dennis' stomach must be twisting and turning as he mulls over the prospects of not having a truly Top Line Ace in one of his cars for the first time since, I'd say, Watson/de Cesaris in 1981!

Raikkonen is, as I mentioned in the very first post/OP, looking like he has more to come. Jenson, meanwhile, doesn't seem to have any consitent answers...and Checo - well, what can one say about Checo? His race today was yet another mediocre to sub-standard one!

Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes must be rubbing their hand in glee about McLaren having Button-Perez in 2013.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 04 November 2012 - 17:05.