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Pirelli Tyres 2013 [merged]


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#101 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:27

I agree with you, but i do think that the heavy trade off between the pace of the initial laps and the tyre deg will make the pitstop periods even more interesting


For me, I wouldn't care if they had 6 pit stops, so long as I knew that the drivers were driving at something approaching their limits. It's utterly absurd that in order to go fast you must simply drive 2-3 seconds off the pace. It's one thing if that was just one approach to racing, but that's all it is now with these tyres, there is no alternative.

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#102 SR388

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:34

I think this is a disaster in the making. Pirelli has done a terrible job. What is wrong with tires that last up to a third of the race?

What Pirelli is doing is throwing some junky used tires on a brand new Bugatti.

Edited by SR388, 20 February 2013 - 21:36.


#103 Masenco

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:39

For me, I wouldn't care if they had 6 pit stops, so long as I knew that the drivers were driving at something approaching their limits. It's utterly absurd that in order to go fast you must simply drive 2-3 seconds off the pace. It's one thing if that was just one approach to racing, but that's all it is now with these tyres, there is no alternative.


I think we all share that feeling.
Cheese tires kinda feel like a cheap attempt to stop the fast cars from using their real pace inorder to make the race seem closer.
The problem is that the only way to solve that issue solidly is to make the cars actually closer together, which means making sure that they are equally funded- and that makes it really unattractive to the already established teams

#104 SR388

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:42

I think we all share that feeling.
Cheese tires kinda feel like a cheap attempt to stop the fast cars from using their real pace inorder to make the race seem closer.
The problem is that the only way to solve that issue solidly is to make the cars actually closer together, which means making sure that they are equally funded- and that makes it really unattractive to the already established teams



Exactly, why don't the teams now just design cars that run at their limit on the ideal tires run 3 seconds slower than the current cars, but run nearly as fast as the current cars with the current tires, when flat out?

Pretty much they shouldn't bother building a fast racing car, but just a mediocre car that's good on tires.

This is really making me pissed!

#105 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:45

I think we all share that feeling.
Cheese tires kinda feel like a cheap attempt to stop the fast cars from using their real pace inorder to make the race seem closer.
The problem is that the only way to solve that issue solidly is to make the cars actually closer together, which means making sure that they are equally funded- and that makes it really unattractive to the already established teams


Problem is we don't! Most F1 fans apparently find crazy races with lots of meaningless overtakes more important than that. Schumacher came out and explained that they're just coasting around, almost like being under a safety car, and no one wanted to know.

#106 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:49

People who moan should blame teams not pirelli, thy have done what teams and FIA has asked them to do and for me personally they have done fantastic job, they have make F1 much more entertainingto watch...when we used to have under ten overtakes in races,we can now have over 100 even on tracks that passing were impossible (barcelona) and it's mainly thank to pirelli.

#107 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:51

People who moan should blame teams not pirelli, thy have done what teams and FIA has asked them to do and for me personally they have done fantastic job, they have make F1 much more entertainingto watch...when we used to have under ten overtakes in races,we can now have over 100 even on tracks that passing were impossible (barcelona) and it's mainly thank to DRS.


Fixed for ya :)

#108 Massa

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:51

Pirelli or DRS ? Or the loss of the DDD ?

+1 Mc_Silver

Edited by Massa, 20 February 2013 - 21:52.


#109 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:52

Fixed for ya :)


I'm sorry but tyres have effected even more to overtaking than drs, drivers and teams says so...so tell that to them.

Edited by Vesuvius, 20 February 2013 - 21:53.


#110 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:52

Problem is we don't! Most F1 fans apparently find crazy races with lots of meaningless overtakes more important than that. Schumacher came out and explained that they're just coasting around, almost like being under a safety car, and no one wanted to know.



People who moan should blame teams not pirelli, thy have done what teams and FIA has asked them to do and for me personally they have done fantastic job, they have make F1 much more entertainingto watch...when we used to have under ten overtakes in races,we can now have over 100 even on tracks that passing were impossible (barcelona) and it's mainly thank to pirelli.


See what I mean?

#111 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:57

Fixed for ya :)


DRS only seals the deal, they're only able to approach so rapidly because of the painfully slow performance of cars struggling on their tyres. India had a massive DRS zone and was a snoozefest for all you WWE fans because the tyres were durable. Put DRS with any season pre - 2011 and it would only be marginally different in terms of overtaking. Didn't any of you see Turkey 2011? Most overtakes were being done regardless of DRS.

#112 Masenco

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:57

I think what f1 has to strive to achieve is the overtaking and the hecticness of the current races but with the drivers actually driving flat out and racing their hearts out.

The current method of limiting their speed is far from ideal

#113 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:58

I think what f1 has to strive to achieve is the overtaking and the hecticness of the current races but with the drivers actually driving flat out and racing their hearts out.

The current method of limiting their speed is far from ideal


I'm in total agreement, but it's so far down the list of priorities of the money makers of F1 and the idiots who lap it up.

#114 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 21:59

DRS only seals the deal, they're only able to approach so rapidly because of the painfully slow performance of cars struggling on their tyres. India had a massive DRS zone and was a snoozefest for all you WWE fans because the tyres were durable. Put DRS with any season pre - 2011 and it would only be marginally different in terms of overtaking. Didn't any of you see Turkey 2011? Most overtakes were being done regardless of DRS.


I think for your example, it was more about the track itself rather than Pirelli.

#115 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:04

I think for your example, it was more about the track itself rather than Pirelli.


Then why were there more than 4 times as many overtakes at Turkey in 2011 as there were in 2010?

#116 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:06

I think for your example, it was more about the track itself rather than Pirelli.


Overtakes on tracks like china,montreal,brazil,bahrain and turkey all were done thanks to pirelli and of course track layout had effect on that too.

Btw Kimi said tyres are ok, people said last year too tyres are gone fast but when the season started there werent more stops than year before.

#117 SR388

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:09

What was wrong with the Bridgestones we had in 2008? We had some pretty great racing back then.

I think Pirelli really needs to make some changes here. It doesn't have to be a perfect tire, but we need to allow these drivers to DRIVE, not babysit some hunks of cheese with Pirelli printed on them.

#118 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:10

Then why were there more than 4 times as many overtakes at Turkey in 2011 as there were in 2010?


Cuz of DRS :p :wave:

#119 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:11

Overtakes on tracks like china,montreal,brazil,bahrain and turkey all were done thanks to pirelli and of course track layout had effect on that too.

Btw Kimi said tyres are ok, people said last year too tyres are gone fast but when the season started there werent more stops than year before.


It isn't the amount of pitstops which determines how the tyres are driven on, Monaco for example was a 1 stop race, but in order to do that and make it work, it required driving around 3-4 seconds off your potential pace to make the tyres last. That wasn't so much a race as a literal tyre saving exercise.

Just watch JB's driving in this clip:



Particularly from around 2:10 onwards. That's not so much racing as it is just driving around.

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#120 BernieEc

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:11

Pirelli have released their compound choice for the first few races.

Bahrain: Soft and Hard


Now that's going to be a cracker. he who dares runs the Hard in Q1 and bites his fingertips when others strap on the soft. from what I hear about a 1 sec difference.

#121 Owen

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:12

It's kind of funny / tragic they spend millions chasing every nano point of downforce and they're handed 4 blocks of cheese to drive on! You have to wonder if its worth it.

#122 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:12

What was wrong with the Bridgestones we had in 2008? We had some pretty great racing back then.

I think Pirelli really needs to make some changes here. It doesn't have to be a perfect tire, but we need to allow these drivers to DRIVE, not babysit some hunks of cheese with Pirelli printed on them.


Some races were ok back in 2008 but not many overtakings at all to be honest.

Teams can run just fine, they go the speed that tyres allow them to.pirelli will surely change their tyres if there will be more than 3-4 stops, don't worry.

#123 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:14

It's kind of funny / tragic they spend millions chasing every nano point of downforce and they're handed 4 blocks of cheese to drive on! You have to wonder if its worth it.



Jees...it's same for every team so get over it.

#124 BernieEc

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:17

People who moan should blame teams not pirelli, thy have done what teams and FIA has asked them to do and for me personally they have done fantastic job, they have make F1 much more entertainingto watch...when we used to have under ten overtakes in races,we can now have over 100 even on tracks that passing were impossible (barcelona) and it's mainly thank to pirelli.


KERS, DRS also played their parts.

#125 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:17

Cuz of DRS :p :wave:


:rolleyes: I can't really debate this with someone who mustn't have watched the race.

#126 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:20

Jees...it's same for every team so get over it.


So by that logic, you would say the same if they did literally have to drive on blocks of cheese, just because it's equal.

What if in soccer, the goal posts were 10 miles wide and one mile high. It'd be rather easy to score wouldn't it? Oh but it's the same for everyone, so it's all good!

#127 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:23

So by that logic, you would say the same if they did literally have to drive on blocks of cheese, just because it's equal.

What if in soccer, the goal posts were 10 miles wide and one mile high. It'd be rather easy to score wouldn't it? Oh but it's the same for everyone, so it's all good!


As long as it's equal to everyone it doesn't matter if tyres last or not, it's still racing.

#128 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:24

As long as it's equal to everyone it doesn't matter if tyres last or not, it's still racing.


So they can drive on cheese and it's still racing, so that's ok?

#129 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:25

KERS, DRS also played their parts.


Surely did but they only helped because tyres had given them chance to do so of course there were also overtakes that were done only because of KERS and DRS but also a driver...but still pirelli is the biggest reason for more overtakes.

#130 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:26

So they can drive on cheese and it's still racing, so that's ok?


Yes because it would be same for everyone so the best would still win.

#131 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:27

:rolleyes: I can't really debate this with someone who mustn't have watched the race.


I can assure you I watched that race at the track  ;) I don't say Pirelli did not contribute to any overtaking etc. but we should not forget DRS and KERS effect

#132 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:29

Yes because it would be same for everyone so the best would still win.


Jesus Christ......Gotta make this my signature.

#133 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:29

I can assure you I watched that race at the track ;) I don't say Pirelli did not contribute to any overtaking etc. but we should not forget DRS and KERS effect


Those two surely have effect but in lesser amount than tyres. There were some tracks that DRS had huge effect and overtaking was too easy on those zones.

#134 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:32

Jesus Christ......Gotta make this my signature.


Really don't get you... Tyres are important yes, but if it's same for every team it doesn't matter if they don't last with best grip over ten laps, best driver/team will still win. Teams just have to get on with what they have.

Edited by Vesuvius, 20 February 2013 - 22:33.


#135 One

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:33

What is the strategy of Ferrari, do we guess?

Get pole - as front as possible -, start on soft(er) and run the rest on harder?

And Red Bull then with this soft(er) tire that goes away very quicky?

Do get pole, start on soft and do the rest on hard(er)?

no differences...

#136 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:33

Really don't get you... Tyres are important yes, but if it's same for every team it doesn't matter if they don't last with best grip over ten laps, best driver/team will still win. Teams just have to get on with what they have.


Best driver/car who preserve their tyres better will win-not the fastest driver/car combo


#137 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:38

Really don't get you... Tyres are important yes, but if it's same for every team it doesn't matter if they don't last with best grip over ten laps, best driver/team will still win. Teams just have to get on with what they have.


But don't you understand that you can dumb down any sport to the point of it almost no longer being a sport, and still the ones who do the best job will still win? Does it not matter to you that the sport has been diminished in the process?

#138 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:40

Best driver/car who preserve their tyres better will win-not the fastest driver/car combo


How do you know? Vettel/RBR surely weren't best driver/car combo to preserve their tyres 2010-2012 and yet they won all the titles. Fastest driver/combo hasn't always won in the past either have it been because of the reliability or errors or so on.

#139 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:43

But don't you understand that you can dumb down any sport to the point of it almost no longer being a sport, and still the ones who do the best job will still win? Does it not matter to you that the sport has been diminished in the process?


The races are still entertaining to watch and that's the most important thing, it's still sport as long as everyone have equal chances of winning and that the best ones will win in the end. 2012 title battle went to the final race, and there were many winners, lots of overtaking, not many boring races, teams were close to each other (except those three newest team)...I really don't understand why people complain?:s what do you want then...2002-2006 seasons with 1-2 teams and 3-4 drivers to be able to win, only 2-10 overtakes/race or the season like we had last year?Almost Everyone in the F1 or those who have worked in F1 say 2012 was one of the best if not the best season ever with full of action and now 2013 is about to come same so nothing wrong with that.

Edited by Vesuvius, 20 February 2013 - 22:50.


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#140 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:44

How do you know? Vettel/RBR surely weren't best driver/car combo to preserve their tyres 2010-2012 and yet they won all the titles. Fastest driver/combo hasn't always won in the past either have it been because of the reliability or errors or so on.


According to Paul Hembery Vettel was one of the best driver out there using Pirelli tyres effectively.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 20 February 2013 - 22:45.


#141 Owen

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:45

Really don't get you... Tyres are important yes, but if it's same for every team it doesn't matter if they don't last with best grip over ten laps, best driver/team will still win. Teams just have to get on with what they have.

I think the thing that kind of grates a bit is that the tyres may have such an over powering influence on performance, that they may - in effect- neutralise the entire field. Meaning traditional f1 qualities; driver skill, teamwork, strategy, technical expertise etc don't bring much of an advantage when the car is so fundamentally handicapped. But gotta hope I'm wrong. :well:

#142 HoldenRT

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:48

It's all because of refuelling. And whether it's banned or not. The cars start the race on full tanks. They all have the same fuel. It takes one of the key variables out of it.. and becomes more about conserving. If you have durable tyres it's even worse.. it's a race until the first pitstop.. and the second half of the race is boring as hell. With Pirelli tyres.. they compensate for that.. by having tyre strategy play more of a role.. and the more stops required.. the more chances the races have to be spiced up.. and unpredictable.. with the last 20 laps more exciting. Some cars trying to last on older tyres in the last 10 or 20 laps.. and other cars catching them very quickly because they chose a different strategy and are on fresh rubber.

Refuelling helped.. because.. everyone had different fuel loads.. and have much more options for different stint lenths.. 2 stops.. 3 stops.. and when you actually did those strategies.. not only do you get the benefit of fresher tyres but also lighter fuel loads. In the current F1.. fewer stops has the advantage.. because even when a 3 stopper uses fresher rubber.. it's still running the high fuel load of the 1 stopper. F1 isn't like MotoGP.. where you can start all of the cars off on 1 set of tyres.. and full tanks.. and expect exciting races. F1 needs variables to make the strategy interesting and make the live timing worth watching. All of this has nothing to do with overtaking on track or not.. whether there is lots of overtaking on track.. or there isn't.. it's still good to have counter strategies.. different ideas to see how can get to the finish line the quickest.. and then seeing who ends up first at the end.. that's a reason to watch the final 20 laps.

With no refuelling and super durable tyres.. the race would be over after the half way point.. and the final 30 laps would be a cruise home.. and you'd basically only be watching to see if someone is going to have a mechanical problem or not.

#143 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:54

The races are still entertaining to watch and that's the most important thing, it's still sport as long as everyone have equal chances of winning and that the best ones will win in the end. 2012 title battle went to the final race, and there were many winners, lots of overtaking, not many boring races, teams were close to each other (except those three newest team)...I really don't understand why people complain?:s


Sorry, but you're basically saying that entertainment is more important than sporting integrity and skill. Why do you think sport is entertaining to watch in the first place? It's based on the simple premise that its participants are being tested to their limits. Driving around for entire races 2-4s within your potential is not fulfilling this.

#144 P123

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 22:58

Really don't get you... Tyres are important yes, but if it's same for every team it doesn't matter if they don't last with best grip over ten laps, best driver/team will still win. Teams just have to get on with what they have.


Yeah, same for everyone. Which is why it's pointless making high deg tyres as the only result is more pistops, not better racing. And the biggest difference in tyre preservation comes from chassis performance, not driving style.

#145 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 23:04

Yeah, same for everyone. Which is why it's pointless making high deg tyres as the only result is more pistops, not better racing. And the biggest difference in tyre preservation comes from chassis performance, not driving style.


Pirelli has been asked by the FiA and teams to do tyres that will make 2-3 pitstops/race and they have done so ...and high tyre deg=more mistakes from drivers=more overtaking= better racing.driving style also have effect on tyre preservation but not indeed as much as chassis has.

#146 Masenco

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 23:06

One thing that i do think the pirellis are good at achieving is creating a difference between a car's qually pace and race pace.
Adding this variable makes the racing much better to watch

#147 pizzalover

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 23:20

I just want to see the best drivers in the World going flat out from the start to the finish. That's racing.

#148 pizzalover

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 23:20

I just want to see the best drivers in the World going flat out from the start to the finish. That's racing.

#149 black magic

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 23:48

ignored by pirelli apologists is that in the past when tyres began to degrade they could still be driven around and some expecially the best could do this better than others.

when 40 yr olds find themselves driving at 60 - 70% that tells you the tyre equation is just wrong.

that when the tyre goes off it becomes undriveable that tells you the tyre equation is just wrong.

when the sport is more about not driving too hard than raw speed that tells you the tyre equation is just wrong.

period

#150 fololo

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 00:25

It's all because of refuelling. And whether it's banned or not. The cars start the race on full tanks. They all have the same fuel. It takes one of the key variables out of it.. and becomes more about conserving. If you have durable tyres it's even worse.. it's a race until the first pitstop.. and the second half of the race is boring as hell. With Pirelli tyres.. they compensate for that.. by having tyre strategy play more of a role.. and the more stops required.. the more chances the races have to be spiced up.. and unpredictable.. with the last 20 laps more exciting. Some cars trying to last on older tyres in the last 10 or 20 laps.. and other cars catching them very quickly because they chose a different strategy and are on fresh rubber.

Refuelling helped.. because.. everyone had different fuel loads.. and have much more options for different stint lenths.. 2 stops.. 3 stops.. and when you actually did those strategies.. not only do you get the benefit of fresher tyres but also lighter fuel loads. In the current F1.. fewer stops has the advantage.. because even when a 3 stopper uses fresher rubber.. it's still running the high fuel load of the 1 stopper. F1 isn't like MotoGP.. where you can start all of the cars off on 1 set of tyres.. and full tanks.. and expect exciting races. F1 needs variables to make the strategy interesting and make the live timing worth watching. All of this has nothing to do with overtaking on track or not.. whether there is lots of overtaking on track.. or there isn't.. it's still good to have counter strategies.. different ideas to see how can get to the finish line the quickest.. and then seeing who ends up first at the end.. that's a reason to watch the final 20 laps.

With no refuelling and super durable tyres.. the race would be over after the half way point.. and the final 30 laps would be a cruise home.. and you'd basically only be watching to see if someone is going to have a mechanical problem or not.

best post of this year